Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 27

Thread: I don't know if this can be done...

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    1,122
    Rep Power
    0

    I don't know if this can be done...

    For my SBF build, I plan on using fuel injection for the induction. I also plan on using a set of aluminum HM exhaust manifolds (pic). The fuel Injection closed loop system requires an O2 sensor in the system. The vintage HM exhaust manifolds are fully water jacketed and have no provision that can be used as an O2 bung for the sensor. The plugs seen in the pic are for draining the water jacket only. O2 sensors do not react well with moisture so, I need a "dry" location to install it therefore, downstream of the manifold will not work.

    Questions: Can a bung for an O2 sensor be installed through the water jacket and exhaust wall and be sealed to prevent leakage for both exhaust and water?

    If so, how?
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Sean Conroy,
    1964 Formula Jr. (hull #2) project

    1972 Greavette Sunflash III
    1981 Kavalk Mistral project

    "A man can accomplish anything... as long as he doesn't care who gets the credit."

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    12,683
    Rep Power
    34
    I don't think you can install an O2 sensor in a log like that.
    I think you could do better w/an aluminum center riser.
    And a good welder.......
    George Carter
    Central Florida
    gcarter763@aol.com
    http://kineticocentralfl.com/


    “If you have to argue your science by using fraud, your science is not valid"
    Professor Ian Plimer, Adilaide and Melbourne Universities

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    2,310
    Rep Power
    24
    Now that you mention it I've been thinking about something similar for a while .
    One day , when I hit the lottery , I want to get a set of Hi-Teks for the Volvo in the St T . It already has O2 sensors installed on the cast iron risers and if and when the time should come I'd like to know if Alan can make manifolds that can incorporate them .

    And on a slightly different note .
    I recently looked over a new ski boat that had a catalyzed engine in it . I can't remember the make but it wasn't any of the more common names . I believe it was a 377 of some sort . Visually it was very impressive , but when the time comes that this will be the only thing available to the boating public , there won't be anything we'll be able to do to the engines afterwards.
    Just because something's old doesn't mean you throw it away !

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    1,122
    Rep Power
    0
    This is a little more difficult as it is an aluminum manifold. Nevertheless, I have researched and found three possible solutions.

    1) Drill a 1.5" hole through the outer water jacket wall. Then using build-up welds seal the space between the outer and inner walls to seal the water passage. Drill and tap the inner manifold wall to accept O2 sensor.

    2) Drill through both walls of the water jacket. Tap inner hole and install brass adaptor which seals the outside with an "O" ring. (this solution requires a flat surface on the exterior)

    3) Fabricate a 1" spacer which is made with provision for the O2 sensor and install between the log and elbow.

    I'm kind of partial to #3. In this way I can mount the O2 sensor in the best place to avoid moisture collection. Also, it is the least invasive and I don't risk ruining the manifold. Although I'm not sure if I would need spacers on both sides (using just 1 sensor) to keep exhaust length even.

    Thoughts?
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Sean Conroy,
    1964 Formula Jr. (hull #2) project

    1972 Greavette Sunflash III
    1981 Kavalk Mistral project

    "A man can accomplish anything... as long as he doesn't care who gets the credit."

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    2,310
    Rep Power
    24
    Have to admit that if I was in your shoes I like number 3 the best as well .
    Presumably that spacer would also have to be made to allow water flow through ?
    Can you get away with only one sensor ? I've got one on each exhaust elbow .
    Just because something's old doesn't mean you throw it away !

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    12,683
    Rep Power
    34
    I sure don't like brass and aluminum together.....makes a nice battery!!
    I would think stainless would be a better solution.
    Actually, I was thinking of the collector area near the top of the manifold,
    I believe it would be drier and closer to the source of exhaust.
    Concerning the number of sonds needed, how many are included in your proposed setup?
    George Carter
    Central Florida
    gcarter763@aol.com
    http://kineticocentralfl.com/


    “If you have to argue your science by using fraud, your science is not valid"
    Professor Ian Plimer, Adilaide and Melbourne Universities

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    1,359
    Rep Power
    23
    Even before I read it I was thinking number three as well...


    Frank
    Triple Hatch.
    It's a classic Donzi, not a Donzi Classic.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    1,122
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by gcarter View Post
    I sure don't like brass and aluminum together.....makes a nice battery!!
    I would think stainless would be a better solution.
    Actually, I was thinking of the collector area near the top of the manifold,
    I believe it would be drier and closer to the source of exhaust.
    Concerning the number of sonds needed, how many are included in your proposed setup?
    Manufacturer says I only need one. I think I like the spacer idea (#3) best.
    I was originally inquiring about an open loop system ... their "expert" spent quite some time with me on the phone and edumacated me
    The system pictured below is marine compatible (with a marine fuel pump)
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Sean Conroy,
    1964 Formula Jr. (hull #2) project

    1972 Greavette Sunflash III
    1981 Kavalk Mistral project

    "A man can accomplish anything... as long as he doesn't care who gets the credit."

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    9,571
    Rep Power
    32
    look into a closed loop EFI system, as cool as marine engines run I don't see a need to run open loop...

    most if not all open loop systems stay in closed loop until 145-160* anyways

    just my .03c
    Charter Member - WAFNC, SBBR, KWOSG
    1955 Perfect Mate
    1986 Hornet III, 502-415 TRS

    www.donzi.org


  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    1,122
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by BUIZILLA View Post
    look into a closed loop EFI system, as cool as marine engines run I don't see a need to run open loop...most if not all open loop systems stay in closed loop until 145-160* anywaysjust my .03c
    Clearly, because I'm looking for O2 sensor solutions we're talking closed loop. Open loop (without an O2 sensor) is common on motorcycles and early marine FI applications but, relies on ECU programming and preset fuel / timing settings. Many closed loop systems run at open loop settings when at WOT to ensure a safe fuel map to protect the motor and as you mentioned, during warm-up.

    The FI manufacturers rep convinced me that while open loop systems will work, they just don't run as well or, produce all the benefits the system is capable of in terms of performance or economy. In short... it's an efficiency thing. Further, recent O2 sensor technology (last 3-4 years) has produced at least two choices of marine designed sensors that are less sensitive to moisture (They still can't be in the water stream though) and tout greater durability.

    As far as running engine temps, yes marine applications run cooler than automotive. However, this can also be addressed. I am undecided about running a closed cooling system (or 1/2 system) that can be set to run at a warmer temperature that is also a more consistent temperature (less fluctuation). But, this is down the road and I haven't really started researching this yet.
    Sean Conroy,
    1964 Formula Jr. (hull #2) project

    1972 Greavette Sunflash III
    1981 Kavalk Mistral project

    "A man can accomplish anything... as long as he doesn't care who gets the credit."

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    3,303
    Rep Power
    24
    #3 was the solution I had planned for my setup. I've since changed my mind, but for your setup, it's definitely the way I would go.
    As far as using an 02 sensor; it doesn't have to be permanent. A lot of guys will use it to tune, then run open loop.

    If you want to run permanently, then I'd strongly consider using a shield/extender:
    http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/x...cat=250&page=2



    Quote Originally Posted by gcarter View Post
    I sure don't like brass and aluminum together.....makes a nice battery!!
    + 1000!
    I mated a brass and aluminum fitting for my cooler and within a couple hours of boating the amount of corrosion was shocking.



    FYI.....love, love, love the look of that injection system!
    Why is faster never fast enough.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    3,303
    Rep Power
    24
    Quote Originally Posted by woobs View Post
    I was originally inquiring about an open loop system ... their "expert" spent quite some time with me on the phone and edumacated me
    Keep in mind that pretty much all Merc, Volvo, and others don't use 02 sensors on their efi motors.
    Perhaps the newer ones do....that I don't know, but there has to be zillions of efi's out there without 02.

    I'm installing a pair more for curiosity. I have the inputs available on my ecu, so I'm putting them. I know they will definitely help with the tuning and will get used, but they aren't necessary for everyday use.
    Why is faster never fast enough.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    9,571
    Rep Power
    32
    if you use that system above, you'll need the ego sensors...

    your void of mass air, or speed density flow meters

    LOVE LOVE LOVE the stacks, it's retro 1966 all over again
    Charter Member - WAFNC, SBBR, KWOSG
    1955 Perfect Mate
    1986 Hornet III, 502-415 TRS

    www.donzi.org


  14. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    12,683
    Rep Power
    34
    It might have horrendous "tip in" characteristics.
    It does look cool though, like down draft Webers!
    George Carter
    Central Florida
    gcarter763@aol.com
    http://kineticocentralfl.com/


    “If you have to argue your science by using fraud, your science is not valid"
    Professor Ian Plimer, Adilaide and Melbourne Universities

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    1,122
    Rep Power
    0
    Yeller... good tips, for sure!

    Buiz it's all about the looks . Retro (and something different) is what we're after. I have to admit I'm a neophyte when it comes to all this electronic injection (even my 911 had mechanical injection) so, keep the comments comin' that's how I learn.

    George... I don't use the word "tip" when I talk about boats LOL.
    Sean Conroy,
    1964 Formula Jr. (hull #2) project

    1972 Greavette Sunflash III
    1981 Kavalk Mistral project

    "A man can accomplish anything... as long as he doesn't care who gets the credit."

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •