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Thread: 18' Donzi vs 20' Cig vs 22' Donzi

  1. #16
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    Found that thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mattyboy View Post
    Pat
    The pic jay posted is the boat that was restored
    http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthre...tte-20-Project


    Great pic showing the 22 and 20 from above. The cockpit looks about the same size.
    Thank you, Patrick
    1994 18' Classic 350Mag Alpha

    Previously owned Donzis -
    1996 22' Classic, 502Mag Bravo
    1987 20' Minx, 350Mag Alpha
    1975 18' Classic, 350Chevy Volvo 280

  2. #17
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    Phil L. does some awesome work here are a few that Phil had resto-mod'd the newer ones had no front locker but had a bigger fiberglass fairing making them look like a bigger cig hence the son of a gun in fact one cig owner who had a Gladiator named Maximus had Phil do a copy in a 20 called Lil maximus even put staggered scoops on the 20 to make it look like the gladiator

    many of the older 20s at the run were updated to have the front benchseat like the son of a gun but still have the front locker and no fairing
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    When the sky is grey,look out to sea.
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    well raise a glass and think of me...
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  3. #18
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    Nice pics. I'm with you--seen some of Phil's boats and they're amazing. Gorgeous, and they scoot.
    "I don't have time to get into it, but he went through a lot." -Pulp Fiction

  4. #19
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    I was looking for bottom shots

    here is a pic of the son of a gun with the pad and a BH drive Phil's brothers boat
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    When the sky is grey,look out to sea.
    When the waves are high and the light is dying,
    well raise a glass and think of me...
    When I'm home again,
    boys, I'll be buying!

    My Ride

    Come Join Us on The Queen Of American Lakes



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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post


    What does Phil do that changes how the Cig 20 would otherwise "pound" in the rough?

    In what way is the 22C "more efficient" than the 18C and the Cig 20?
    Well, let's see here, I'll restate that I have been in all three, and this is my opinion, based on my personal experiences.

    But beyond this...

    To the 20. I have spent a lot of time talking with Phil over the years. We truly enjoyed the posse of Cig 20s
    that he got to participate at the Awakening . He probably knows these boats better than anyone else.
    He said several times that he would love to tune a 22, because he knew the boat had several inherent advantages
    to the hull over the 20. The things I already mentioned, a longer more efficient hull, less weight, and a more
    aggressive dead rise.

    As for Phil's tweaks, they are endless. The primary ingredients being big power, extension boxes, long tabs,
    weight reduction, and the infamous Blackhawk drive. All of this being said, I witnessed most of the Cigs run
    the shoreline looking for cover and smooth water at every run I had the luck to see them at over the past ten years.
    This isn't an indictment of the boats, Phil does fantastic things with them. And he may get a shot at the Flowerpot,
    if Powerball evers comes in. Or I would buy the 20 and enjoy both!

    To the 18. In stock form, it gives up length and freeboard to the 22, which makes it a hoot, but you certainly can't
    run it as hard in the rough for the same reasons. And before somebody pulls out a Geeo video, I said in stock form.
    We had one of the hottest stock 18's ever built by AMH in the form of a Scorpion boat, and it was not as capable as
    my 22 in any way.

    My personal experience... Cheers!

    Edit: Added a shot of the nicest 20 in existence.
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  6. #21
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    Back to my post above........where I said the 20's widest point is at the transom.
    Take a look at the #2 picture in Matty's post above and notice how the chine to
    chine at the transom is as wide or wider than at the rubrail.
    The wider dimension there makes for the possibility of greater displacement in
    the stern, i.e., better able to carry a BBC w/o any penalty like a Minx, or an 18
    w/a BBC by looking like it's sinking. A Cig 20 just isn't the same as a Donzi of
    the same size.
    Taking all the ingredients of a 20 w/the broader beam at the waterline,
    less deadrise, and all the add ons that Todd mentioned probably makes a better,
    higher performance20' boat
    George Carter
    Central Florida
    gcarter763@aol.com
    http://kineticocentralfl.com/


    “If you have to argue your science by using fraud, your science is not valid"
    Professor Ian Plimer, Adilaide and Melbourne Universities

  7. #22
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    Here is one owned by Dave Heffering (Snoboater on the board) 540 power.

    Ken
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  8. #23
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    [/QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by roadtrip se View Post
    ...The 22 outrides, is more efficient, and easier to run than the other two by far.
    ...
    The Cig, unless rigged and tested for hundreds of hours by Lipschutz, has a dead rise that is relatively flat, and can pound in the rough.
    ...
    Fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    What does Phil do that changes how the Cig 20 would otherwise "pound" in the rough?

    In what way is the 22C "more efficient" than the 18C and the Cig 20?
    Quote Originally Posted by roadtrip se View Post
    Well, let's see here, I'll restate that I have been in all three, and this is my opinion, based on my personal experiences.

    But beyond this...

    To the 20. I have spent a lot of time talking with Phil over the years. We truly enjoyed the posse of Cig 20s
    that he got to participate at the Awakening . He probably knows these boats better than anyone else.
    He said several times that he would love to tune a 22, because he knew the boat had several inherent advantages
    to the hull over the 20. The things I already mentioned, a longer more efficient hull, less weight, and a more
    aggressive dead rise.

    As for Phil's tweaks, they are endless. The primary ingredients being big power, extension boxes, long tabs,
    weight reduction, and the infamous Blackhawk drive. All of this being said, I witnessed most of the Cigs run
    the shoreline looking for cover and smooth water at every run I had the luck to see them at over the past ten years.
    This isn't an indictment of the boats, Phil does fantastic things with them. And he may get a shot at the Flowerpot,
    if Powerball evers comes in. Or I would buy the 20 and enjoy both!

    To the 18. In stock form, it gives up length and freeboard to the 22, which makes it a hoot, but you certainly can't
    run it as hard in the rough for the same reasons. And before somebody pulls out a Geeo video, I said in stock form.
    We had one of the hottest stock 18's ever built by AMH in the form of a Scorpion boat, and it was not as capable as
    my 22 in any way.

    My personal experience... Cheers!

    Edit: Added a shot of the nicest 20 in existence.
    Thanks, that's all interesting info, though it still leaves me sorta lost on the answers to my two questions Above. Been a long day on rough water but I think I can explain my confusion. Since there's a fair chunk of explanatory content below, I'll highlight the three actual questions in bold.

    On the efficiency question above, I was trying to understand specifically what you meant when you said the 22C was more efficient than the Cig. I gather from your post above that Phil told you the 22 hull is more efficient, but do you know technically what he meant by that? (If not that's fine--just trying to understand.) To clarify, in order for 'more efficient' to mean anything, it has to refer to something specific like 'less drag and more speed with equal power' or 'less drag per pound of displacement' or something like that. I don't doubt Phil's expertise even for an instant. Just looking to pick up some knowledge here as the term is more than a little tantalizing for those of us who've spent hours pondering hydrodynamics. Do you know what Phil meant by 'more efficient?'

    I'm similarly lost with the claim that the 22C is more efficient than the 18C. You noted that it's longer and has more freeboard, and can be run harder in the rough. But none of that's efficiency. What's the efficiency advantage of the 22C over the 18C? Apologies if I am missing it in your post quoted above.

    O
    n the question of "what does Phil do that changes how the Cig 20 would otherwise 'pound' in the rough?"...thanks for listing some of the tweaks Phil uses like big power, long tabs, shaving weight, extension boxes, Blackhawk drives sometimes. I've noticed those (other than the weight reduction, which was new info to me) on the boats he's brought to AOTH, and I've seen the boats run. Other than the long tabs (which I don't claim to understand the utility of) all those tweaks strike me as obvious contributors to the amazing, stable speeds he has achieved.

    But where I'm still lost is how any of what you listed takes a hull that would otherwise 'pound' in the rough and makes it not. For the boats he put Blackhawks on, I suppose the counter-rotation might stop them from being torqued over wave tops and bow-steering. Maybe there's some magic with the tabs? My sense has been the same as what you described--that Phil's boats were looking for smooth water to take advantage of all his ultra-high-speed and associated stability add-ons.

    But other than your post earlier, I'd never heard a claim that those tweaks eliminated any pounding that the stock 20 hull would take in rough water. Do you have any insight as to how any of those tweaks Phil makes would actually do that? Again, if we don't know, we don't know, and that's fine. Just trying to connect any reduction of pounding to the specific rigging tweaks that mostly seem intuitively disconnected to me. (I took my best stab with the BH's lack of torque-over with the hull out of the water, for the boats that were equipped with BH drives. I've pondered counter-rotating drives for my Cig 24 for this very reason.)
    "I don't have time to get into it, but he went through a lot." -Pulp Fiction

  9. #24
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    George C

    now that I think about it the early cig and the minx hull have a lot in common the hulls except for beam are very similar round keeled short strake plus the side arm rest panels in the cockpit

    I have a pic of the cig 19 upside down I need to find it great shot of the hull

    I love Snoboater's 20 that is one of my favorite color schemes
    When the sky is grey,look out to sea.
    When the waves are high and the light is dying,
    well raise a glass and think of me...
    When I'm home again,
    boys, I'll be buying!

    My Ride

    Come Join Us on The Queen Of American Lakes



    Contact Us

    www.lgdonziclassic.com

  10. #25
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    Thanks, that's all interesting info, though it still leaves me sorta lost on the answers to my two questions Above. Been a long day on rough water but I think I can explain my confusion. Since there's a fair chunk of explanatory content below, I'll highlight the three actual questions in bold.

    On the efficiency question above, I was trying to understand specifically what you meant when you said the 22C was more efficient than the Cig. I gather from your post above that Phil told you the 22 hull is more efficient, but do you know technically what he meant by that? (If not that's fine--just trying to understand.) To clarify, in order for 'more efficient' to mean anything, it has to refer to something specific like 'less drag and more speed with equal power' or 'less drag per pound of displacement' or something like that. I don't doubt Phil's expertise even for an instant. Just looking to pick up some knowledge here as the term is more than a little tantalizing for those of us who've spent hours pondering hydrodynamics. Do you know what Phil meant by 'more efficient?'

    I'm similarly lost with the claim that the 22C is more efficient than the 18C. You noted that it's longer and has more freeboard, and can be run harder in the rough. But none of that's efficiency. What's the efficiency advantage of the 22C over the 18C? Apologies if I am missing it in your post quoted above.

    O
    n the question of "what does Phil do that changes how the Cig 20 would otherwise 'pound' in the rough?"...thanks for listing some of the tweaks Phil uses like big power, long tabs, shaving weight, extension boxes, Blackhawk drives sometimes. I've noticed those (other than the weight reduction, which was new info to me) on the boats he's brought to AOTH, and I've seen the boats run. Other than the long tabs (which I don't claim to understand the utility of) all those tweaks strike me as obvious contributors to the amazing, stable speeds he has achieved.

    But where I'm still lost is how any of what you listed takes a hull that would otherwise 'pound' in the rough and makes it not. For the boats he put Blackhawks on, I suppose the counter-rotation might stop them from being torqued over wave tops and bow-steering. Maybe there's some magic with the tabs? My sense has been the same as what you described--that Phil's boats were looking for smooth water to take advantage of all his ultra-high-speed and associated stability add-ons.

    But other than your post earlier, I'd never heard a claim that those tweaks eliminated any pounding that the stock 20 hull would take in rough water. Do you have any insight as to how any of those tweaks Phil makes would actually do that? Again, if we don't know, we don't know, and that's fine. Just trying to connect any reduction of pounding to the specific rigging tweaks that mostly seem intuitively disconnected to me. (I took my best stab with the BH's lack of torque-over with the hull out of the water, for the boats that were equipped with BH drives. I've pondered counter-rotating drives for my Cig 24 for this very reason.)[/QUOTE]






    In regards to hull efficiency, my experience combined with my interactions with Phil lead me to believe that the combination of length, deadrise, and weight make the 22 more responsive to performance upgrades than the 20. This is why I listed these attributes.

    I don't think anything Phil does eliminates the pounding of these hulls completely, hence the reason I described the shore hugging behavior at AOTH. Another really neat nugget that I picked up on from watching Phil prepare is that he would plot his entire course on GPS for the longer runs to optimize his distance and placement on the lake. This was in addition to having sea level charts to optimize his fuel curve as well. You can take the racer out of the race, but...

    I didn't say that the 22 was more efficient than the 18. What I said was that the sheer size disadvantage gives the 22 the leg up in bigger water and higher speeds.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by roadtrip se View Post
    I don't think anything Phil does eliminates the pounding of these hulls completely, hence the reason I described the shore hugging behavior at AOTH. Another really neat nugget that I picked up on from watching Phil prepare is that he would plot his entire course on GPS for the longer runs to optimize his distance and placement on the lake. This was in addition to having sea level charts to optimize his fuel curve as well. You can take the racer out of the race, but...
    It’s interesting about the course-plotting and such. I seem to recall seeing (and hearing about) a Cig or two running pretty aggressive course lines that way at AOTH—this would further explain/corroborate that. And I’ve witnessed it myself for a few seconds, before the boats got really little and then vanished.
    I've seen Stan drive the line the same way, from within the boat. As you say, racer's instinct. On the pounding front, sounds like we don’t know which if any of the tweaks we’ve talked about actually do anything to lessen pounding, and if so, how they do it. Best guess I have is still the removal of torque-over when the hull leaves the water. I don’t understand tabs to minimize pounding, unless it’s just about trying to keep the sharpness of the bow down in the snot. Which sounds like something that’d make sense at relatively low speeds for those Cigs. It made sense in my Nova down in the 25-40 mph range. I sort of assume up at high speed, it risks having hooking a tab in an ugly way. But I don’t know, just speculating.


    Quote Originally Posted by roadtrip se View Post
    [Phil] said several times that he would love to tune a 22, because he knew the boat had several inherent advantages to the hull over the 20. The things I already mentioned, a longer more efficient hull, less weight, and a more
    aggressive dead rise.
    Quote Originally Posted by roadtrip se View Post
    In regards to hull efficiency, my experience combined with my interactions with Phil lead me to believe that the combination of length, deadrise, and weight make the 22 more responsive to performance upgrades than the 20. This is why I listed these attributes.
    Thanks, understood—I think I get it now. We don’t know the specifics about what ‘more efficient’ meant when Phil said it, it’s still a vague notion of efficiency. Could be max speed per unit horsepower, drag per pound, something about where one of those curves hits (or doesn’t hit) a wall, something that normalizes power requirements for hull length (where more hull length is always desirable for spanning waves and staying on top) etc. I'm not sure it's actually lighter, but maybe. (That could vary with different builds in different eras.) I wonder if the Cig is slightly wider? To George's point about the width at the chine? Feels to me like the 22C might end up with a narrower running surface. (Sidebar: "aggressive deadrise" usually is less efficient, no? Flatter is faster with the same power, more deadrise typically takes more power to reach the same speed.)


    Quote Originally Posted by roadtrip se View Post
    The 22 outrides, is more efficient, and easier to run than the other two by far.
    ...
    Fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    In what way is the 22C "more efficient" than the 18C and the Cig 20?
    Quote Originally Posted by roadtrip se View Post
    I didn't say I that the 22 was more efficient than the 18. What I said was that the sheer size disadvantage gives the 22 the leg up in bigger water and higher speeds.

    LOL, perhaps you THOUGHT you didn’t?
    "I don't have time to get into it, but he went through a lot." -Pulp Fiction

  12. #27
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    Busted...

    Sorry about that. Reality, an 18 isn't going to be as efficient as a 22 in the same conditions, because it will be in the water less, so back to my freeboard and length jet-ski argument. Again, not that 18's can't be an absolute riot as attested by Jill's Scorpion 18.

    No one runs a Blackhawk drive and deals with all of the associated BS that comes with it for anything other than speed. The pad bottom Cig 20s see an additional 8-10 mph from that drive. The handling at re-entry is less a concern than blowing the smithereens out of the vertical shaft. All BH boats tend to benefit from a lot of tab used sparingly, because the back end of the boat is literally surfing at times, when on top of the water. This is also the reasoning for the extension boxes to give the props cleaner water, when the surf is up. All of this setup for the BH drive.

    I understand plotting a line. I do it all the time. It is actually safer for those around you, if they understand how to run in a pack, because your actions are more predictable. This isn't what I saw happening with the Cig crew at AOTH. They were plotting 50 mile courses looking for smooth water conditions away from the rest of the crowd. The gotcha was that in heavy lumber seasons, the stuff tends to be thicker towards shore, so they would get caught on ocassion

    Deadrise, pads, and running surfaces are a whole other ball of wax. Let's just say that no one has convinced me yet, that a 22 benefits from a pad, like the 20 Cig does. Voodoo.

    I really miss running with those guys. The boats are awesome, and I learned something every time they showed up to run. Good days.

  13. #28
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    This Cig 20 was on Lake Oakland a couple weeks ago. He said it runs 65 with a 454. It has a sharp keel. It was a busy day on the pond so we couldn't run hard at all.
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    Lake St. Clair, Lake Huron, Lake Erie, Lake Oakland

  14. #29
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    A few more of Ken's 19 - what a pretty boat!

    IMG_3770.JPG

    IMG_3769.JPG
    1967 Ski Sporter (sold)
    2004 40th Anniversary Edition 18

  15. #30
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    It's off-the-charts beautiful. No such thing as too many pics...
    "I don't have time to get into it, but he went through a lot." -Pulp Fiction

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