Carbon Fiber Lay Up?

[Donzi_Dude]

lets discuss the pro's and con's.


i know its been done but it may be time to do it again.




how much weight can be saved?

how much faster will the boat be?

how much more or less durable will it be?

how much more will it cost?

what are the possible side effects?

how much of a factor is the cool factor?


constructive input welcomed!

[gcarter]

Are you building airplanes or motorcycle fairings?
Not much use on a 22 Classic, for instance.
It's very expensive. You need to know what you're doing, as to lay of fibers in respect to part design.
Must use epoxy. It probably needs to be a two stage epoxy and autoclave the finished part.

[gcarter]

I've read a 35' race boat can be built that totals 3,500# for hull and deck.
What that means is it will have to be ballasted after rigging.
Why not Kevlar, probably much stronger and w/higher impact resistance.
Much harder to work with (cut) though.
All this cost a LOT of money.

[Donzi_Dude]

thanks for the input Mr. Carter.

why would i need to autoclave a boat?

[OFFSHORE GINGER]

thanks for the input Mr. Carter.

why would i need to autoclave a boat?

You would not need to Autoclave considering the price alone will break the bank and what are you building / making .

[gcarter]

thanks for the input Mr. Carter.

why would i need to autoclave a boat?

A two stage epoxy (which is the strongest type available) requires heating to finalize curing the epoxy.
Americas Cup, and other extreme types of sail race boats put the entire hull into an oven (autoclave)
for the final epoxy curing.
But carbon fiber is very brittle, which makes it better for aircraft and cars.

[OFFSHORE GINGER]

A two stage epoxy (which is the strongest type available) requires heating to finalize curing the epoxy.

George not to be rude but the only reason a oven would be needed is for post cure only and to tell you the truth I know of more then one high end Boat Co in my area that does not bake there hulls / deck due to cost alone ( oven & operation ) and not to mention that there are Epoxies out there that are Room Temp / High Impact / Laminating Systems that require no oven that can be used at room temperature applications with great results .

[Donzi_Dude]

thanks guys! im going to skip the autoclave

it will be an offshore race boat. im not currently at liberty to discuss the particular model as that is not 100% finalized.

it will be an all carbon/composite build.

is 20% weight reduction a realistic goal?

[OFFSHORE GINGER]

thanks guys! im going to skip the autoclave

it will be an offshore race boat. im not currently at liberty to discuss the particular model as that is not 100% finalized.

it will be an all carbon/composite build.

is 20% weight reduction a realistic goal?

Personally past experience working at a few High Performance Boat Co's for many years tells me that it is always the customers choice on just how light of a layup he or she wants and to tell you the truth a total build using all Carbon Fiber in your lay up can and will be very costly or should I say why not mix and match ( fabric ) going with carbon Fiber , Kevlar , S & or E glass which will give you superior strength plus lower the weight ( & cost ) if Bagged which actually should give you a realistic weight reduction of 20 % or more in my opinion .

[gcarter]

George not to be rude but the only reason a oven would be needed is for post cure only and to tell you the truth I know of more then one high end Boat Co in my area that does not bake there hulls / deck due to cost alone ( oven & operation ) and not to mention that there are Epoxies out there that are Room Temp / High Impact / Laminating Systems that require no oven that can be used at room temperature applications with great results .

"It probably needs to be a two stage epoxy and autoclave the finished part."

Artie, I thought I made it clear in this statement from above (but maybe I didn't) that there is more than one type of epoxy that can be used w/carbon.

[gcarter]

is 20% weight reduction a realistic goal?

The 3500# for a 35' boat, I've been told is a good number for light weight composite construction.
What does that mean?
My 22Classic Donzi hull and deck weigh, I suspect, 1800# or probably more.
But there's a lot more to this, a 3500# 35' boat has to float at a design water line which means
considerable considerable balast will have to be added.

[Donzi_Dude]

tell you the truth a total build using all Carbon Fiber in your lay up can and will be very costly or should I say why not mix and match ( fabric ) going with carbon Fiber , Kevlar , S & or E glass which will give you superior strength plus lower the weight ( & cost ) if Bagged which actually should give you a realistic weight reduction of 20 % or more in my opinion .

thanks for the sound advice. that was the original plan and the more we looked at it, the more it became compelling to build the entire boat from carbon fiber.

[OFFSHORE GINGER]

thanks for the sound advice. that was the original plan and the more we looked at it, the more it became compelling to build the entire boat from carbon fiber.

I may be wrong but past experience working at Skater tells me that a total build using Carbon Fiber just might not be the best choice and what is your reason for an all Carbon Fiber layup and have we talked by phone before about this build.

[gcarter]

Carbon's main problem is, it's brittle. That's why light weight/high strength boats are usually a combination of carbon/kevlar (which is very tough...think bullet proof vests)/and various glass products as needed.
Remember, the boat will still have to weigh a minimum amount to be stable. Weight will have to be added, you might as well add a little weight into the hull material and have a tougher boat that won't shatter.

[Donzi_Dude]

I may be wrong but past experience working at Skater tells me that a total build using Carbon Fiber just might not be the best choice and what is your reason for an all Carbon Fiber layup and have we talked by phone before about this build.

great stuff guys. i dont think we have ever spoken but my memory is not what it once was.



the main reason is weight reduction, strength and to build a better mousetrap if possible.
if you have something that tells you it may not be best i would appreciate you input.

this thing about it being brittle im not fully understanding. it is 3 times stronger than steel. how could it possibly be fragile. i understand the boat needs a certain amount of weight. i intend to find the sweet spot so adding is not an issue.

the boat will be a 24 degree deep v design.