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Thread: Donzi 16 Timeline - The Boats Built During 1964

  1. #391
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    I dunno woobs but if you have a set of line drawings for a fiberglass Ski Sporter and you walk into Souter and say "build me this boat" and they say "sure, but it will have to be made out of wood" and you and Jim Wynne look at each other and say "works for us" than don't you kinda have a "wood" Ski Sporter? The support structure, balance and placement of a gas tank is no big deal for a firm like Souter, one of the best builders in the world at the time.

    Obviously I do agree with you that the deck plan would have been modified to make it a cozy center steer and create the forward hatch to create access to who knows what.

    Maybe I'm mixing up my 50 year old boat but isn't the #65 boat still in existence and running today? If it is, pretty easy to run a tape bow to stern to see if it's 16'8" long.
    1972 16 OB - C16B-63 - "Surface Tension" Resto Project
    1974 16 OB - DMR16106017-B - "The Mule"

  2. #392
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    Except it's not. If you were to build these boats in wood under the nose of Donzi, and they took you to court for copyright infringement.... well, with all the differences, there wouldn't be a case.

    In this case, you really don't know the dimensions. So, all you have is a common theme.

    I've been asking for the W-W boats that might be left. Thunderbox is not among the known survivors. Many of these old racers have disappeared or left to rot. The Classic Offshore Powerboat Club is always looking for these old beauties and encourages their rescue. http://www.classicoffshore.com/blog/

    Thunderflash actually became a yacht tender before languishing in a backyard slowly returning to the earth, before she was rescued.
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    Sean Conroy,
    1964 Formula Jr. (hull #2) project

    1972 Greavette Sunflash III
    1981 Kavalk Mistral project

    "A man can accomplish anything... as long as he doesn't care who gets the credit."

  3. #393
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    Greg, as you know I'm a woody boat guy first. However, my design preference is for offshore performance boats and my production boat of choice is Donzi (not a pre-war CC kind of guy). So, given the Wynn Mill history through the 16 and the story of Donzi (or just Wynn-Walters), I have been after a boat that fits in this wood/performance group for years... to crown my "fleet".

    This is why I bought my 16 project and planned a wooden deck. I felt bad about cutting up an early boat and still not having exactly what I wanted so, I sold it). I have looked endlessly for building plans of these boats(both in NA and the UK), including contacting Naval Architects to reverse engineer/design plans so that I may build the boat I truly want. This is why I still look for a Formula Jr. or a replica (which I believe is closer to the original concept).

    Along with this quest has come a lot of research. None of which tells me that any boat is identical to a Donzi 16, let alone one of the early racers I covet. Of course these boats are similar as the designs evolved from the same mind, with the same purpose.... and the engineering evolved too, just like race cars evolve with lessons learned at the track. So, maybe Thunderbox was further along the evolutionary chain of the wooden era but, I think it is a totally different branch of the same tree that grew the Donzi 16.

    There is no evidence that Walt/Jim/Don took the Ski Sporter line drawings to Souters for them to build. It is a nice dream and possibly wishful but, totally unfounded. Rather, Souters had plans from the original Wynn Mill II. They planned to build boats in England for sale but, this thought never progressed. Despite this, the WM II designs were available and many variations were built by several builders trying to be competitive on the race scene. Emulation of winning designs is common in all forms of competition. Thunderbox is a modified version of the WM II plans, not a wooden prototype of the Ski Sporter.
    Sean Conroy,
    1964 Formula Jr. (hull #2) project

    1972 Greavette Sunflash III
    1981 Kavalk Mistral project

    "A man can accomplish anything... as long as he doesn't care who gets the credit."

  4. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Guimond View Post
    Maybe I'm mixing up my 50 year old boats but isn't the #65 boat still in existence and running today? If it is, pretty easy to run a tape bow to stern to see if it's 16'8" long.
    Quote Originally Posted by woobs View Post
    I've been asking for the W-W boats that might be left. Thunderbox is not among the known survivors.
    Gotcha, I did not know that #65 was named and that it has not survived. I thought someone had restored it. Oh well, bummer. Case closed as no one can ever measure it. Maybe at some point in the future
    years #65 (aka Thunderbox in 1964) will be found in a barn in the English countryside.

    Back to the snowstorm ............... and the 1964 Ski Sporter timeline
    1972 16 OB - C16B-63 - "Surface Tension" Resto Project
    1974 16 OB - DMR16106017-B - "The Mule"

  5. #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Guimond View Post
    .
    I also have taken many close looks at the two photos below. My opinion is that there is not enough resolution in the photos below to determine if the inner stakes are truly "short".
    In this picture you can see a reflection on a flat edge which at the end of the strake the reflection then shows a shadow which would be where the strake end is angled in to a point if the strake continued so would the reflection. Also look at the shadow on the water under the back of the boat you can see clearly that the boat is airborne where only the last 7-12 inches are wetted so if it had long strakes they would be visible this is no doubt a short strake production 16. Also look at the surface spray exiting aft of the hook that will tell you the boat is airborne otherwise the spray would be exiting to the sides of the chine

    http://www.donzi.org/library_pics/co...2-scan0012.jpg

    Also Brownie confirms non white solid colored hulls are in 65 the earliest I know of may be Bertram boy's 16 which he believed to be hull 23 a 65 which was a true eaton powernaut outdrive

    timeline

    1. long straked hull press pic of the bottom prototype
    1A. teknikens boat short straked sent to sweden for testing
    2. white red Wynne volvo boat first production boat short straked fitted for public sale
    3. white and green Brownie eaton boat 2nd production boat
    4. white and blue Brownie Nov Jax show volvo boat 3rd production boat
    5. Fred Darwick's volvo boat Dec

    that is 6 with a month left ( the production time for one 16) in 64 as far as the NY show it has not been confirmed what or how many 16 were there ,it could be possible that existing boats made part of the show tour.
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  6. #396
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    for reference here is a shot of my 16 airborne but not as much as the Wynne pic I posted the link to.

    I would say i am running on the last 18 to 24 inches of the hull and you can see the spray exiting to the side at the chine

    also you can see the flat edge of the inner strake even with the bottom not in direct sun light and where it ends
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  7. #397
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    1. the long straked volvo aq200 boat hull is built before Walt's June 15th 1964 stability rails drawing which shows the short strakes . From your pics Walt had been working on several 16-esque boats. It is clear that the bottom shot took some time to setup so i think they use the prototype and set it up while they use another boat for the other pics . the long straked boat is not needed and can be taken for any period of time needed

    1a the teknikens volvo aq200 boat is built late June after the mold for the 16 is reworked by filling in the end of the strakes in the existing mold it is rigged here in America by donzi and tested here and sent to Sweden by the end of july 64 to show sweden what they found. they run these two boats side by side in testing. We have had issues trying to tell long from short in pics but for testing purposes Donzi marks the hulls the long has a boot stripe the short doesn't making it easier to tell the two apart while running in person or pics

    2-3 They know the short is the one they now make the changes permanent in the mold and build the wynne and brownie boats for upcoming sales demo this process is going on as well for the 28 and both 19s. August Sept.

    4. the jax show boat built sept-oct for nov show

    5. Fred Darwick's boat goes into the mold in Nov and is finished and billed by Dec at this point Donzi is not a production company . it takes 1 month as per donzi to build a 16 so we have a month left in 1964 after Fred's boat is sold I am not saying they didn't build any more I am saying they didn't build 4 more. At this point Donzi is a small company they probably only have 1 or two 16 molds and limited manpower to build boats In Jan of 65 after the NY show they explode
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  8. #398
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    more on 1a. probably went something along the lines of . phone call to sweden hey we're having issues with hull 1 and the aq200 they brainstorm and say maybe it is disturbed water around the lower this leads them to shortened the strakes and as an added measure to make sure the new volvo exhaust integrated into the drive lower isn't causing the issue( the aq100 had a separate side unit for this) let the exhaust go thru the hull and plug and cap the exhaust openings ( as seen in the tekenkens pics). Hey Bjorn that worked ok Don can you send us a boat we want to study this.
    When the sky is grey,look out to sea.
    When the waves are high and the light is dying,
    well raise a glass and think of me...
    When I'm home again,
    boys, I'll be buying!

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  9. #399
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    I have a question and I don't know if it should be posted here or not.... probably should have it's own thread... but I would like to interject with a question about Formula Boats and the Jr. Don sells Formula in 1964... and immediately starts production of the Donzi 16 ski sport?? Does anyone have dates regarding when the Jr went into production, Don sells Formula and then designs and builds the 16?? there has been lots of speculation regarding the the design of these two boats, including the Jr being based off the Wynn Mill and the Donzi being based off the Wynn Mill II

    if you guys think this should be separate I will happily start a new thread to discuss.

  10. #400
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattyboy View Post
    more on 1a. probably went something along the lines of . phone call to sweden hey we're having issues with hull 1 and the aq200 they brainstorm and say maybe it is disturbed water around the lower this leads them to shortened the strakes and as an added measure to make sure the new volvo exhaust integrated into the drive lower isn't causing the issue( the aq100 had a separate side unit for this) let the exhaust go thru the hull and plug and cap the exhaust openings ( as seen in the tekenkens pics). Hey Bjorn that worked ok Don can you send us a boat we want to study this.
    I read somewhere... that the real reason behind the shortened strakes was because these boats were not exactly overloaded with horsepower and the extra lift in the stern provided by the long full-length strakes combined with a lack of power to carry the bow resulted in an unbalanced boat. This situation caused a tendency to porpoise and bow steer and to compound the problem, was a dynamic issue that could not be solved with a static trim compromise setting on the drive. Further, a redesign of major balancing items was impractical (and ultimately, un-necessary). The "disturbed flow" was a rouse to keep the ever prying eyes of competitors (both racing and corporate) guessing just what Volvo and W-W designers were actually doing....because at this time, everybody watched what Don did.
    Sean Conroy,
    1964 Formula Jr. (hull #2) project

    1972 Greavette Sunflash III
    1981 Kavalk Mistral project

    "A man can accomplish anything... as long as he doesn't care who gets the credit."

  11. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by woobs View Post
    I read somewhere... that the real reason behind the shortened strakes was because these boats were not exactly overloaded with horsepower and the extra lift in the stern provided by the long full-length strakes combined with a lack of power to carry the bow resulted in an unbalanced boat. This situation caused a tendency to porpoise and bow steer and to compound the problem, was a dynamic issue that could not be solved with a static trim compromise setting on the drive. Further, a redesign of major balancing items was impractical (and ultimately, un-necessary). The "disturbed flow" was a rouse to keep the ever prying eyes of competitors (both racing and corporate) guessing just what Volvo and W-W designers were actually doing.
    I have no good information on hull designs.. out of my wheelhouse. BUT... the earlier formula Jr. had a similar setup with the short inner strakes. user "Playin' Boats" posted up some GREAT shots of the hull on his.






    found some shots of a flipped 16 to compare, seems the strakes are shorter on the donzi?





  12. #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by woobs View Post
    I read somewhere... that the real reason behind the shortened strakes was because these boats were not exactly overloaded with horsepower and the extra lift in the stern provided by the long full-length strakes combined with a lack of power to carry the bow resulted in an unbalanced boat. This situation caused a tendency to porpoise and bow steer and to compound the problem, was a dynamic issue that could not be solved with a static trim compromise setting on the drive. Further, a redesign of major balancing items was impractical (and ultimately, un-necessary). The "disturbed flow" was a rouse to keep the ever prying eyes of competitors (both racing and corporate) guessing just what Volvo and W-W designers were actually doing....because at this time, everybody watched what Don did.
    Woobs

    I am going from what Walt told me . we were flipping thru a few of his drawings and I mentioned that I noticed a difference in Strake lengths on later versions of his designs. He said the Volvo didn't like the water coming off the longer inner strakes. the rework of the 16 into the 18 had full length strakes and when they rounded the bottom they had strakes that ended almost at the transom compared to the earlier 16 versions. this happened on the 16 and the hornet . The 18C and the 22C share the same strake layout the hornetII and III have longer strakes than my Hornet yet when the minx comes out it has short strakes like the 16?
    When the sky is grey,look out to sea.
    When the waves are high and the light is dying,
    well raise a glass and think of me...
    When I'm home again,
    boys, I'll be buying!

    My Ride

    Come Join Us on The Queen Of American Lakes



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  13. #403
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattyboy View Post
    my timeline ........

    1. long straked hull press pic of the bottom prototype
    1A. teknikens boat short straked sent to sweden for testing
    2. white red Wynne volvo boat first production boat short straked fitted for public sale
    3. white and green Brownie eaton boat 2nd production boat
    4. white and blue Brownie Nov Jax show volvo boat 3rd production boat
    5. Fred Darwick's volvo boat Dec

    that is 6 with a month left ( the production time for one 16) in 64 as far as the NY show it has not been confirmed what or how many 16 were there ,it could be possible that existing boats made part of the show tour.
    Ok, interesting. 18" of snow so let's play the logic out and understand the way you are laying these 6 out Matty...........

    1. long straked hull press pic of the bottom prototype

    Q - Walt's Ski Sporter plans are finished and printed on July 1, 1964. The pictures you reference also appear in advertisments on December 1 so they were physically snapped on say on October 1. They rig the boat with a Volvo 110. What month do you think your #1 boat was built? July, August, or September?

    M Answer - the long straked volvo aq200 boat hull is built before Walt's June 15th '64 stability rails drawing which shows the short strakes. From your pics Walt"s been working on several 16-esque boats. It"s clear that the bottom shot took some time to setup so i think they use the prototype and set it up while they use another boat for the other pics . the long straked boat is not needed and can be taken for any period of time needed

    1A. teknikens boat short straked sent to sweden for testing

    Q- Donzi tests your #1 non stop. It runs like crap per your chat with Walt years ago. Jim Wynne and Walt already had great success with the #65 boat in the October '64 Paris 6 hour Race and that boat had short strakes (clear as day in the photo) so Walt flies home after the race and builds one similar back in Miami. Donzi is also worried about the Longshoreman's strike which starts October 1. What month is your #1A hull built and then when does it ship out to Sweden?

    M Answer - the teknikens volvo aq200 boat is built late June after the mold for the 16 is reworked by filling in the end of the strakes in the existing mold. It is rigged here in America by donzi and tested here and sent to Sweden by the end of july 64 to show sweden what they found. they run these two boats side by side in testing. We have had issues trying to tell long from short in pics but for testing purposes Donzi marks the hulls the long has a boot stripe, the short doesn't making it easier to tell the two apart while running in person or pics

    2. white red Wynne volvo boat first production boat short straked fitted for public sale

    The factory would need to use the same short strake mold so the Teknikens Varld (aka Tomron) boat would have to be pulled before the White with red stripe hull that Wynne is driving could begin, correct? They rig it with a loaner AQ200. Alan Brown calls this boat #1 but never mentions the two hulls that came before it. That seems a little odd for a guy like Brownie who remembers almost everything.

    3. white and green Brownie eaton boat 2nd production boat

    Brownie calls this #2. What month is it built and does it have long or short inner lifting strakes?

    M Answer for 2 and 3 - They know the short is the one so they now make the changes permanent in the mold and build the wynne and brownie boats for upcoming sales demo. This process is going on as well for the 28 and both 19s. August 30 or Sept.


    4. white and blue Brownie Nov Jax show volvo boat 3rd production boat

    November 15, 1964 was the Jacksonville boat show date

    M Answer - the jax show boat built sept-oct for nov show

    5. Fred Darwick's volvo boat Dec

    Q - December 10, 1964 is the Darwick invoice date. Are you saying that Donzi does not build any other Ski Sporter's during that full month even though all the race boats are totally finished by November 8? The only boat they build is Fred Darwick's?

    M Answer - Fred Darwick's boat goes into the mold in November and is finished and billed by Dec at this point Donzi is still not a production company . It takes 1 month as per donzi to build a 16 so we have a month left in 1964 after Fred's boat is sold. I am not saying they didn't build any more I am saying they didn't build 4 more. At this point Donzi is a small company, they probably only have 1 or two 16 molds and limited manpower to build boats. In Jan of '65 after the NY show they explode.
    1972 16 OB - C16B-63 - "Surface Tension" Resto Project
    1974 16 OB - DMR16106017-B - "The Mule"

  14. #404
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    Matty, I took your answers and transferred them to my prior post. I put them in red above just to make the flow of thought a bit easier. I can buy off on #1 and #1a. In fact, there is no reason the #65 boat in Paris could not have been built after and as a result of the short strake experiment (that worked) in Miami.

    Where the timeline gets a bit interesting is the time gap between your hull 1a and ........ and hulls 2 & 3.

    If you generally decide to use June 30 as the build date for #1a and August 30 is the build for two hulls, numbers 2 and 3 that is two full months. That's a ton of time. If I look at that, and then what Frank Civitano says about using his Dad's boat for the Summer of '64, that time slice is where his Dad's boat got built. That is based on what Frank says BUT that is also 50 years ago. I'm just not seeing Donzi building only (2) 16 huills in those 60 days. Also, building a solid green 16 was already figured out as they would have to build the solid green 19 Hornet. They wanted solid gelcoat experience. Certainly not definitive without sitting down with Frank C, but also not as much of a stretch as Gerry Walin or woobs weighing his 16 hull before he sold it.

    If Frank Civitano's boat is proven not to be a '64 and gets tossed off the list, you'd still need to include the 16 hull you forgot that went to Bob Cox and Ed Joyce at Donzi dealer Lauderdale Marine. It came before Darwick.

    I'm still thinking through the rest of your comments on #4 and #5 and comparing that to my research. Have to noodle that a bit more before I comment and look back at my notes.
    1972 16 OB - C16B-63 - "Surface Tension" Resto Project
    1974 16 OB - DMR16106017-B - "The Mule"

  15. #405
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattyboy View Post
    I am going from what Walt told me.... the rework of the 16 into the 18 had full length strakes and when they rounded the bottom they had strakes that ended almost at the transom compared to the earlier 16 versions. this happened on the 16 and the hornet . The 18C and the 22C share the same strake layout the hornetII and III have longer strakes than my Hornet yet when the minx comes out it has short strakes like the 16?
    I have never had THAT type of direct access to information however, the 18, 22, Hornet, Hornet II & III as well as the Minx all have ample V8 power to carry the bow so, this particular issue would not exist. Further if it did exist, a power trim may have solved it.

    Possibly the Minx had balance issues too? Or maybe it has short strakes to soften the ride.... similar to the post barrel-back 18 2+3 that were also shortened while trading the sharp keel for a rounded one. The (55" from the transom) short strakes on the 16 were lengthened again to 21" when power options, and therefore speed rose past the 50mph area. These longer strakes help the chine walk that is felt in the 55" hull just past the low-mid 50's.

    More directly, for the 16 early (1964) production; I tend to lean more towards Greg's analysis and more boats rather than less. But, even after all the analysis from both sides you can only work with what you have. There really is not much concrete evidence of any production numbers so, who is to say there was, or was not other undocumented boats produced (that were not fortunate to become "famous" i.e. Fred Darwick's boat). This is not unreasonable as Don & his crew were not new to the business. It is possible units were delivered both through wholesale or retail. Having been involved in startup entrepreneurial manufacturing operations myself, I can assure you that sales come at startup and you don't turn them away. You find a way to deliver and bank the needed cash.

    Ultimately, all this information in this thread can prove a minimum production but has no bearing on a potential maximum production. So, believe what you like... it's not spreadsheet history.
    Sean Conroy,
    1964 Formula Jr. (hull #2) project

    1972 Greavette Sunflash III
    1981 Kavalk Mistral project

    "A man can accomplish anything... as long as he doesn't care who gets the credit."

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