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Thread: Donzi 16 Timeline - The Boats Built During 1964

  1. #181
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    I've heard about the O/B Hornet before but I thought it was made for Jerry Langer . Was there more than one maybe ?
    Just because something's old doesn't mean you throw it away !

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan's Cloud View Post
    I've heard about the O/B Hornet before but I thought it was made for Jerry Langer . Was there more than one maybe ?
    ..
    Yep MC, I discovered there were two. Jerry Langer had one which he often raced with Davey Johnson. Jerry was a well known racer and also an Evinrude dealer. The second seems to have belonged to Bob Cox which he raced with Ed Joyce. Jerry had triples on his Hornet, Bob and Ed had twin Johnson's. It took a trip over to the UK to nail down the Cox Hornet 19 wacker.

    Earlier in this thread someone commented that the original line drawings for the 16 showed a "200" drive. That did not sound right to me given how difficult it was to get the new AQ200.
    .
    I decided to drop a "100" Volvo drive next to the Walt Walters line drawings to compare the two below ....................
    Attached Images Attached Images
    1972 16 OB - C16B-63 - "Surface Tension" Resto Project
    1974 16 OB - DMR16106017-B - "The Mule"

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Guimond View Post
    ..


    Earlier in this thread someone commented that the original line drawings for the 16 showed a "200" drive. That did not sound right to me given how difficult it was to get the new AQ200.
    .
    I decided to drop a "100" Volvo drive next to the Walt Walters line drawings to compare the two below ....................

    I commented on that Greg from my notes when i met Walt at mystic and reviewed the actual drawings , the plan view from july of 64 shows an aq 200 the stability rail drawing from june of 64 shows an aq100, the drives are easy to tell apart the aq200 has no exposed control cables or tiller the aq 100 does. the blue line drawing looks like that came from the sales brochure yes that is an aq100 that pic in the brochure was probably taken from the original lines and offset drawings which show an aq100 as well

    production start on the aq200 is sometime in 1963 but as I said before state side availability who knows when they were readily available? I am sure they weren't to easy to find.


    so anyone want to guess how hard it would be put a grab rail on a 16 with the deck on?
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  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattyboy View Post
    I commented on that Greg from my notes when i met Walt at mystic and reviewed the actual drawings , the plan view from july of 64 shows an aq 200 the stability rail drawing from june of 64 shows an aq100, the drives are easy to tell apart the aq200 has no exposed control cables or tiller the aq 100 does. the blue line drawing looks like that came from the sales brochure yes that is an aq100 that pic in the brochure was probably taken from the original lines and offset drawings which show an aq100 as well

    production start on the aq200 is sometime in 1963 but as I said before state side availability who knows when they were readily available? I am sure they weren't to easy to find.
    Hmmm......that is interesting.

    So Walt Walter's 16 drawing in June 1964 uses an AQ100 drive and then only one month later in July he substitutes the newer AQ200 drive. That tends to tell me that Jim Wynne, Walt and Don A were not able to get there hands on even a "prototype" AQ200 lower unit until July, 1964 even though Jim Wynne would have been the single most capable person in America of getting something new from Volvo. Do you agree that's about right? I don't think that Walt would have used the 200 in drawings unless he was very comfortable that Donzi could get one physically delivered to Miami.
    1972 16 OB - C16B-63 - "Surface Tension" Resto Project
    1974 16 OB - DMR16106017-B - "The Mule"

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Guimond View Post
    Hmmm......that is interesting.

    So Walt Walter's 16 drawing in June 1964 uses an AQ100 drive and then only one month later in July he substitutes the newer AQ200 drive. That tends to tell me that Jim Wynne, Walt and Don A were not able to get there hands on even a "prototype" AQ200 lower unit until July, 1964 even though Jim Wynne would have been the single most capable person in America of getting something new from Volvo. Do you agree that's about right? I don't think that Walt would have used the 200 in drawings unless he was very comfortable that Donzi could get one physically delivered to Miami.

    Greg I don't have enough info to agree or disagree on that. I am unfamiliar with the process of creating a technical line drawing in the 1960s
    would Walt have drawn the drive by hand? or would a template from the mfg'r be used to trace the drive onto his line drawings of the hull. There must also be more tech drawings from Volvo like transom template and S dim. as they call it. Walt's line drawings are not for public consumption at the time .
    The first 4 page 16 brochure shows an aq200 on the drawings on the first page but later in the brochure they have a reversed picture of the lines and offsets drawing that shows the aq100 .

    still trying to nail down Ford production and eaton production timeframes from casting to final assembly .
    When the sky is grey,look out to sea.
    When the waves are high and the light is dying,
    well raise a glass and think of me...
    When I'm home again,
    boys, I'll be buying!

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    Come Join Us on The Queen Of American Lakes



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  6. #186
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    .
    Here is the 4 page brochure for the 16. Forgive the bad merge of the 4 pages into one jpg.

    This is the first "formal" piece of collateral for the 16 Ski Sporter and I think we agree that it was published in October, 1964. Very interesting Matty as you point out that BOTH the AQ100 and the AQ200 drives are shown. No one in America at that time except for Donzi would have picked up the fact that both drives were shown. Given the AQ200 is shown in an actual photo what this says to me is that your concept of a "Prototype" AQ200 being shipped to Jim Wynne before formal production and the brochure's creation makes sense, and probably would have shipped to him in Miami in August/September, in time to install it into Hull #1.

    The only man still alive who could add a second validation to Alan Brown and possibly comment on the "Prototype" would be Walt Walters, now 84 years old. I have tried to contact him on a few occasions but no dice. The only guys who have met him in person are Bert and you Matty. I'm not sure it alters my timeline but there might be additional tidbits that could. It would certainly validate whether or not there was a "Prototype Early Release" AQ200 on the hull Jim Wynne is driving BEFORE that photo is taken that shows a production AQ200 on the back.
    .
    Attached Images Attached Images
    1972 16 OB - C16B-63 - "Surface Tension" Resto Project
    1974 16 OB - DMR16106017-B - "The Mule"

  7. #187
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    I'm placing the Fred and Judy Darwick race 16 to slot #7 and David D. Ray's 1964 boat in slot #8 with the white with Blue stripe 16 powered by Volvo.
    1972 16 OB - C16B-63 - "Surface Tension" Resto Project
    1974 16 OB - DMR16106017-B - "The Mule"

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Guimond View Post
    .
    Here is the 4 page brochure for the 16. Forgive the bad merge of the 4 pages into one jpg.

    This is the first "formal" piece of collateral for the 16 Ski Sporter and I think we agree that it was published in October, 1964.
    .

    Greg

    I do believe that the black and white photos used in that brochure were taken sometime in 1964 but the 4 page "color" brochure was not available for Brownie to take to the Jax show in Nov of 64 that I confirmed that with Brownie. So I would move the publish release date on that brochure to Dec 64 or later but I would imagine this was available for the NY show.

    we know that some of the photos were incorporated in magazine and newspaper flats for ads in late 64. Again going back to 1964 I would say the process of getting something in print was quite longer than it is today I think more like months then weeks. The NY show is the first big show of the year so i would say the PR company first priority was press releases so the ads came first( like the one come see us at the NY show) then the show sales literature was next . Again it makes sense that laying out the brochure was done by hand so once they had portions/sections of the brochure done they could use those sections in the press ads then continue to work on the final brochure.
    When the sky is grey,look out to sea.
    When the waves are high and the light is dying,
    well raise a glass and think of me...
    When I'm home again,
    boys, I'll be buying!

    My Ride

    Come Join Us on The Queen Of American Lakes



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  9. #189
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    Factoid the aq200 is put into production in 1963 and is used in the Volvo Penta AQ180 a gas powered V8 180 hp based on the Volvo B36( 3.56L 218 CI) motor this is an overseas offering only it was only available in 1963.
    When the sky is grey,look out to sea.
    When the waves are high and the light is dying,
    well raise a glass and think of me...
    When I'm home again,
    boys, I'll be buying!

    My Ride

    Come Join Us on The Queen Of American Lakes



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  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Guimond View Post

    1. White with Red deck stripe - Jim Wynne driving - long strakes and shown with AQ200 drive in picture but drive is assumed to be a "Prototype" 200 although no confirmation on that
    2. White with Green deck stripe - Alan Brown pictured driving - Eaton flip up drive
    3. Jacksonville Boat Show boat - White with Blue stripe - first "US Production" AQ200 public release drive. Show was 11/13/64
    4. Sam Ballinger boat - grab rail and Eaton motor and drive. Motor block casting date shows June, 29 1964
    5. Frank Civitano solid green boat. Motor and drive as yet unknown. Built initially for son Michael Aronow but sold to Frank's Dad, a personal friend of Don A's.
    6. Fred Darwick race boat - grab rail and "Special Hot Volvo" performance version 110 motor and special race 100 lower unit. Invoice dated 12/10/1964

    Greg
    clarification on number 6 Fred's boat this is the 9 hr Miami winner it has a grab rail?
    When the sky is grey,look out to sea.
    When the waves are high and the light is dying,
    well raise a glass and think of me...
    When I'm home again,
    boys, I'll be buying!

    My Ride

    Come Join Us on The Queen Of American Lakes



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  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattyboy View Post
    Greg, clarification on number 6 Fred's boat this is the 9 hr Miami winner it has a grab rail?
    That is correct. Darwick picked it up on December 10, 1964 and raced it January. In one picture it has a deck grab rail but I have to find the high res version.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    1972 16 OB - C16B-63 - "Surface Tension" Resto Project
    1974 16 OB - DMR16106017-B - "The Mule"

  12. #192
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    Here is the high res version of Fred's boat courtesy of .org BUT now, as I look at it, he has the later 17 number on it. That tells me that he may have added the grab rail. I don't have any high resolution pictures of the 11 boat and I can't tell from the photo if it has the grab rail on it.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    1972 16 OB - C16B-63 - "Surface Tension" Resto Project
    1974 16 OB - DMR16106017-B - "The Mule"

  13. #193
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    Greg

    my eyes are not what they used to be and just got a new RX for my glases. I don't see a grab rail in either picture is it my eyes. The reason I asked is there are pictures of Fred or Posted by Fred of a few 16s some have a rail some don't in the color pics it looks like they were white with green and blue stripes. numbered either 11 17 or 17A
    When the sky is grey,look out to sea.
    When the waves are high and the light is dying,
    well raise a glass and think of me...
    When I'm home again,
    boys, I'll be buying!

    My Ride

    Come Join Us on The Queen Of American Lakes



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  14. #194
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    there are differences in all the pics

    some pics show a rail some don't, some show a boot stripe some don't are these pics confirmed of the same boat?
    When the sky is grey,look out to sea.
    When the waves are high and the light is dying,
    well raise a glass and think of me...
    When I'm home again,
    boys, I'll be buying!

    My Ride

    Come Join Us on The Queen Of American Lakes



    Contact Us

    www.lgdonziclassic.com

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattyboy View Post
    there are differences in all the pics. some pics show a rail some don't, some show a boot stripe some don't

    Yep, I'm now thinking that Fred added the grab rail at some point after he won the first 9 hour. He painted the stripe so don't factor that in. The hull I pictured is the same hull and same Volvo set-up used in both the '65 and '66 race. Same boat. Now, what's interesting is that he took delivery of the boat in December without a grab rail which means that the grab rail was not yet available until a little after that, correct?

    Does that mean that in order to be a 1964 Ski Sporter 16 you could NOT have a grab rail?
    1972 16 OB - C16B-63 - "Surface Tension" Resto Project
    1974 16 OB - DMR16106017-B - "The Mule"

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