Donzi 16 Timeline - The Boats Built During 1964

[mattyboy]

I do have some interest in this timeline but really only has it relates to the entire 16 timeline

As I have said we know more today than we did yesterday I have been researching Donzi Classic things for close to 15 years now. We have discovered many things and have documented production methods and changes in several models

Some of the things brought to light in this discussion that I am now trying to track down

The strakes

The changes made to the interior

Among other things like paint or gel


And in all of this something's that have been said years ago by people in the know have been given substantiation

[Greg Guimond]

Ok, I now understand. Your interest is more "overall".

Perhaps we look at it this way Matty. We all know (100% fact) that there was at least one 16 Ski Sporter present in the booth at the NY show which started January 15, 1965 to the public. I have worked shows as a kid and you need to be there two days in advance to get your stuff set up so that means January 13 arrival on the UWS Manhattan. How long does it take to drag a few boats to NYC from Florida? Say three days, so they left Miami on January 10. That allows for zero cushion if they hit a snowstorm which makes no sense to me as the NY Show was a BIG one but who cares for now. The boat/s they brought would have been pulled from the mold in 1964. If they pulled the 16 on New Years eve that gives them 10 days to get everything 100% correct and then hit the road on January 10th. Well, actually 9 days as aint nobody in that crowd working on New Years Day hung over! They now have 9 days to rig it. The 16 would have been perfect so someone could buy it right then and there off the floor. This NY Show boat would have probably been the 11th 16 Ski Sporter ever built and the last of 1964. If woobs get's anything on Shepard that may ID the 12th.

I'm running The Mule this weekend so I'll think more on the stuff while ice boating.

[mattyboy]

Greg
I have seen a show boat from Don purchased right off the floor it was far from perfect in fact it looked hurried and rushed so I would take the perfect thing with a grain of salt

[mattyboy]

as this time line unfolds it will also reveal some info on general production methods and other developments going on at the factory at the time.It always goes to say once an early one is found it can be examined and documented depending on how "UN-Molested" it is. That is the only way to confirm info.

let's look at the 16 interior on the first examples shown in the exhibit photos in this thread.

The drivers seat is the folding capt chair style not what we see later with the deep bucket. This standard in 64 and 65 and pretty much standard for a few years after. the seat was two tone the sides were white and the seat surface was colored to match the lounge seat and the stripe selected.

The lounge seating seats were two tone white bottom and edges the edges were flat this is also a 4 piece interior. the seat surface was tuck and roll pleats but the sides were not. These could be massed produced and place in a bulk stocking order to be ready for the sales boom of the new 16 they were white with either blue green or red. this interior is different from what we know as the "Bilt-Rite" interior which were rounded edges and the tuck and roll went thru all the edges and 5 pieces. At this point I do not know who did the early interior it could have been Bilt Rite just have not found out yet. The Bilt Rite interior also features cut outs for the cover hardware the early two tone ones do not.

this type interior is seen in all of the early published"test" articles PB, Teknikens and Rudder as well as the Donzi BW literature and PR material as well as the first 4 page brochure on the 16 in 1965.

Some data points.

the first true deep bucket is seen in the new 18 2+3 which is touted for it's unique seating for the time two buckets up front not a bench or back to back seating that is normally seen in 1965. The interior on the new 18 shows the tuck and roll thru the edges and thru the deep buckets and the back seats. This interior is mono-toned only one color.

If a 16 hull and deck where to be a solid color other than white the early two tone interior would need to be changed to be solid all one color to match the stripe. This would mean either ordering and early style flat edge interior in the stripe color sans the white bottom or in the case of a white stripe sans the color top. OR a new interior would need to be created.

The first examples I have seen on a non white mono toned hull with a contrasting stripe are The Cover shot/ A&F all red with with stripe 16 with Don A at the wheel, Dr. Oskar Trost on Lake Constance at the wheel of a dark colored hull with white deck stripe no boot stripe and solid white interior, Then the all red white stripe white interior( possibly the above A&F boat) and an all yellow 16 with brown stripe brown interior That graced the windows of A&F in the summer of '65. all of these are tuck and roll no flat edges

So it looks like when they introduced the 18 which was usually a non white hull they used that style tuck and roll interior on the 16 as well except for the deep bucket.


So in earlier discussions here by people in the know it was mentioned that all the early boats were white with colored stripes and that the first 25 or so eaton boats makes perfect sense now with what we have uncovered .

I am sure a ton of orders came in in late 64 early 65 leading to the backlog

[woobs]

So, the first solid colour hull/deck with Eaton drive started production when in 1965?

(and to clarify, none in 1964... right)

[mattyboy]

So, the first solid colour hull/deck with Eaton drive started production when in 1965?

(and to clarify, none in 1964... right)

The earliest photographs I have seen are from 1965 of a 16, and the Donzi with first solid color hull I can prove with a date in a color pic is 007 also '65

Greg seems to have the timeline well in hand when he posts it he may have photographic proof of a color hull 16 delivered in '64 and what color the interior was.


some more info the yellow brown A&F boat looks to be an interceptor eaton boat by the rigging the Red and white one looks have been De-rigged but judging by the exhaust it may have been an interceptor as well. the yellow one may have been de-rigged too so they could display a 17 boat in a retail window in NYC

[Greg Guimond]

The earliest photographs I have seen are from 1965 of a 16, and the Donzi with first solid color hull I can prove with a date in a color pic is 007 also '65. Greg seems to have the timeline well in hand when he posts it he may have photographic proof of a color hull 16 delivered in '64 and what color the interior was.

So, the first solid colour hull/deck with Eaton drive started production when in 1965? (and to clarify, none in 1964... right)

Just to be clear guys on the topic of a solid color hull and deck. I do not have any photos of this as a 1964. On this particular piece of the puzzle for 1964 I am only going by the quote below from past board member Frank Civitano...............

My Dad new Don well back in the old days when he use to be a builder. I wish I still had our 1st Green and Red striped Donzi 16 that Don talked my father into buying in 1964. She wasn't the fastest but it was only the 4th or 5th made. He was a fun guy, that I remember. I was only 14 and the last time I seen him was when I was 17.

Now, Frank could have been mistaken and what he remembers actually happened in 1965 but my sense is that he is accurately referring to 1964. Look how specifically he remembers being 14 years old. The color could be Grumble Green with a Lord Lucan Red deck stripe. I would say that I am 70/30 in favor of the solid color hull being built in 1964 but I have never found or corresponded with Frank Civitano in any form or fashion. I'm sure he has an old photo of his Dad's Ski Sporter hidden away somewhere. Frank would be the only guy who could confirm or deny the 1964 build date. I believe he is still alive and if so would be 65 years old.

[mattyboy]

we do know that with solid non white hulls the Donzi standard was to have the solid interior match the stripe. Grumble green and white and also grumble green and lucan red and i also think the red was called wineberry later in the early 70s was a pretty popular color combo Just say n20 has a friend with that color combo a 1970s something 16 . here is an early 18 2+3 triple hatch with that color combo Grumble green and Lucan red, this hull is one of the first 100 18s produced.

I do believe that a GG and LR 16 could have been ordered and paid for in 1964 but really think it would be delivered in 1965 due to the special nature of the construction method would take some time longer than normal . i would also say that the best time for someone in the NY tristate to buy a new 16 for the first time would be the NY show in 1965 and with the size of that show could generate a TON of orders leading to the backlog and production bulge in early 1965

[mattyboy]

Don't forget Matty that Don A built an all green 16 hull for his son Michael. Is Michael Aronow still with us?

He also built an all Pink ( Coral) one for his secretary but not in 64

[mattyboy]

Hull 1 all white red stripes deck and boot stripe volvo aq200 the boat seen with Jim Wynne driving . this is probably a prototype drive with out standard rigging leaving no choice but to cut the gauges into the dash and the deck stripe is carried down thru the dash due to lack of a volvo dash plate

Hull 2 all white green deck stripe only ford interceptor eaton kick up spin up seen with Brownie driving next to Jim

Hull 3 white blue stripes volvo aq 200 Jax show boat

This is confirmed info on hull numbers from photos and Allan Brown




now trying to confirm that hull 1 is the bw press photo and brochure boat then the timeline will be defined more precisely

[Greg Guimond]

Don't forget Matty that Don A built an all green 16 hull for his son Michael. Is Michael Aronow still with us?

He also built an all Pink (Coral) one for his secretary but not in 64

Yes, but the Michael Aronow 16 had one of the Volvo 110/100 "Hot Edition's" installed in it. This special motor/drive combination was primarily a 1964 offering but could have drifted into very early 1965.
Matty, do you know much about these? I'm thinking that if Mike Aronow is still with us, that the Grumble Green solid colored hull with the Lucan Red stripe, could have been built for Mike in 1964 but then sold to Frank Civitano's Dad, Don A's friend. I guess that means there are actually two people who would know 100% and could comment. Hmmmmm.

My Dad new Don well back in the old days when he use to be a builder. I wish I still had our 1st Green and Red striped Donzi 16 that Don talked my father into buying in 1964. She wasn't the fastest but it was only the 4th or 5th made. He was a fun guy, that I remember. I was only 14 and the last time I seen him was when I was 17.

[mattyboy]

Note the pictures in this thread of the two side by side 16 ( Brownie Wynne) that have been edited to show hull numbers are wrong the red and white one is hull 1

[Greg Guimond]

Hull 1 all white red stripes deck and boot stripe volvo aq200 the boat seen with Jim Wynne driving . this is probably a prototype drive with out standard rigging leaving no choice but to cut the gauges into the dash and the deck stripe is carried down thru the dash due to lack of a volvo dash plate

Hull 2 all white green deck stripe only ford interceptor eaton kick up spin up seen with Brownie driving next to Jim

Hull 3 white blue stripes volvo aq 200 Jax show boat

This is confirmed info on hull numbers from photos and Allan Brown

Yep, I had confirmed that the 11/13/64 Jacksonville show boat was either #3 or #4 at the very start of this thread so that was off the table after it being called the first hull for a decade.
Now, the other two hulls make sense given Brownie had handwritten same on the B+W photo below. Also, given the date of the Jax show and the fact it was the first production AQ200 drive ever, that would tell you that both the black and white and color photo below would obviously have to have been shot prior to the race which was the weekend before the Jax show. So likely before November 1, 1964.

I have never seen anyone comment on an AQ200 "prototype" in the 10 years I have been around this forum so that is very interesting. Curious, did Brownie comment to you yesterday directly about the prototype nature of the AQ200 drive on the boat Jim Wynne is piloting in the photo below, or is that your personal assumption Matty?

[mattyboy]

Yep, I had confirmed that the 11/13/64 Jacksonville show boat was either #3 or #4 at the very start of this thread so that was off the table after it being called the first hull for a decade. Now, the other two hulls make sense given Brownie had handwritten same on the B+W photo below.

I have never seen anyone comment on an AQ200 "prototype" in the 10 years I have been around so that is very interesting. Curious, did Brownie comment to you yesterday directly about the prototype nature of the AQ200 drive on the boat Jim Wynne is piloting in the photo below, or is that your personal assumption Matty?

He confirmed that the red and white one is hull one that's it from a picture posted to him on social media .

But in that picture it has an early aq200 drive on it . the aq 200 production start is sometime in 1963 release dates in the US not sure . This drive is on the first hull which I think comes out early and testing is done during this testing issues arise( Strakes). this drive is not seen in public and when the show boat comes out that aq200 is the first aq200 seen in public in the US. The boat pictured in the BW sales literature shows 99% identical to the Wynne number 1 boat. the picture of it on the lift is very early in the production run as Formulas being finished are in the background and no other of the dirty dozen or other Donzi can be seen. June design drawings show an aq200 and short strakes so the issues must have been discovered sometimes prior to that

so 1 2 and 3 are confirmed all white with #1 red, #2 green and #3 blue stripes


Note if hull one is found it will have long strakes any hulls documented after that will give the time frame for the design change.

working on hull 4 Sam's boat early info has the 260 block being cast in the end of June 1964 but no info on final Ford assembly then Eaton assembly and sale. That timeframe is uncertain and it is common that the previous year's motors go in the next year model boats.

Greg what info do you have what you think is hull 4 in your archive?

[Greg Guimond]

Checking that .................