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Thread: Boat Values

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    Boat Values

    Sometimes, I think we as older (the age of the boats and not the owners) performance boat owners, and maybe newbie’s in particular, aren’t particularly honest w/themselves about the value of their own, and other’s boats. I think I’ve mentioned this before, but in the collector car and motorcycle world, there’re grading standards. These standards are very important and taken very seriously. In the realm of boats, I don’t think the same standards exist, nor are they taken seriously. We see folks that want to buy a 70 MPH BBC powered 22C for $10k and it to be a perfect “1”! Their budget will put them into a mid ‘80’s boat and we know a lot of those boats can have a lot of issues. Often they get frustrated, don’t, or can’t themselves, pull the deck, repair the cockpit floor and seat bases, replace the tank, and all the wiring/switchgear. The result is generally something that’ll be hauled off in the future. I know the same thing happens in the old car and motorcycle world where the rule is “Buy the best car or motorcycle you can afford”. The same rule should apply to performance boats as there are generally no freebies and real bargains, i.e. “Cheap probably means problems”. The laws of nature aren’t suspended for wannabe performance boat owners.
    Anyway, I have a “Comprehensive Vintage Motorcycle Price Guide 2013/2014 Edition”. What’s neat about this guide is the definitions put forward for grading the condition of bikes, and I believe the same guide could be applied to performance boats. So here goes;
    · Condition 1- Perfect/New- New, unused motorcycles or perfect restorations. It should be noted there are almost no Condition 1 motorcycles on the road. These are bikes that would have just left the showroom floor, or have been restored to showroom condition with proper factory specifications. Everything runs and operates perfectly. These bikes are rarely ridden, and often will be show winners. Many people save these bikes in climate-controlled rooms or museums as investment pieces or works of art. Note that there are often differences between a Condition 1 original bike, and a Condition 1 restored bike, related to the demand and rarity. This is a factor that must be taken into consideration when purchasing a Condition 1 motorcycle.
    · Condition 2- Excellent- Without close examination, many Condition 2 motorcycles may appear as Condition 1. It may be a bike that is ridden, but usually for limited miles. It may be a well restored bike, or a well preserved original. There is almost no wear, or very minimal wear on these motorcycles.
    · Condition 3- Very Good- Most bikes that are seen on the road are Condition 3, or Condition 4. They are operable original bikes, or perhaps older restorations that have some wear. It may look good as you gaze at it in a parking lot, but as you get closer, you may see paint nicks or light fading; wear on the plastic, rubber, or leather parts; or light dulling of the chrome. All components of the bike are in working order.
    · Condition 4- This is a basic, usable motorcycle. This can be an original well used model, or a restoration that’s been ridden and has begun to deteriorate. This bike may need some minor work, but most of the systems should function. Even from a distance, it is obvious that there are chips and fading in the paint, small dents, rust, poor chrome, or other areas of the motorcycle that need attention.
    · Condition 5- Fair- This is a motorcycle that needs close to a full restoration. It may or may not be running, but it is in better shape than a condition 6 motorcycle. These bikes usually have all of the original parts, or the parts may be available from the owners if they have modified the bike and have not discarded the original equipment. It has rust, faded or scratched paint, pitted, or dull chrome, but not throughout the entire bike. This is a bike that would be considered as a good base for a restoration and would not present the restorer with a huge chore to find parts and supplies.
    · Condition 6- Poor- These bikes are not running. They may be missing parts, may have been wrecked, and are in poor shape throughout, with faded and scratched paint, lots of rust, badly pitted or rusted chrome, tears in seats, cracked plastic and leather, worn or torn rubber pieces, and other problems. These bikes are usually good for parts to be used on other restorations, but can also be in the form of a complete bike in bad shape.

    After reading through this it's obvious the various definitions can transfer directly to the performance boating world. I think it's a useful tool. It could be referred to when someone comes to our humble group of owners and members.
    For instance, in my own history of Donzi ownership, both the Minx and the Testa Rossa were clearly Condition 6 boats. I paid $4K for the Minx, and $11.5K for the TR. Neither one ran. Both required about 5 times the initial investment to become what they eventually were. That multiplier might even be a good rule of thumb for wannabe's,
    i.e.- original investment X 5 = a pretty good Donzi! Now that should be easy to remember.
    After considering the condition of the boat...let's say a Condition 3 boat, it'll have a value based on depreciation compared to a new boat. Since a new 22C is $120K, and let's say the boat of interest is 15 years old will probably be valued at $20-$30K. A Condition 3, 15 year old 22C Donzi is very useful boat that anyone should be happy to own. It should have a lot of life left in it, be a boat you could be proud to own and easy to sell when the time comes.
    This thread is open for discussion, and it's not meant to be an absolute, but more along the lines of a primer for performance boat hunting, or a resource for discuss the relative value of late '60's BS, V-drive Hornets.
    George Carter
    Central Florida
    gcarter763@aol.com
    http://kineticocentralfl.com/


    “If you have to argue your science by using fraud, your science is not valid"
    Professor Ian Plimer, Adilaide and Melbourne Universities

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    I agree it's a good way to think about it. (One thing I wonder: in the car world, how hard is it to know what's really wrong, to grade condition? In the boat world, it feels to me like it's harder, and that there's almost always a good bit that would require destructive testing to really assess.)

    The other thing that I think is important in such systems is that two people can agree on every specific detail but then attach a different grade. Savvy people deal with this, understanding the limits of grading systems, but the concept is useful to point out on the front end I think.
    "I don't have time to get into it, but he went through a lot." -Pulp Fiction

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    I agree it's a good way to think about it. (One thing I wonder: in the car world, how hard is it to know what's really wrong, to grade condition? In the boat world, it feels to me like it's harder, and that there's almost always a good bit that would require destructive testing to really assess.)

    The other thing that I think is important in such systems is that two people can agree on every specific detail but then attach a different grade. Savvy people deal with this, understanding the limits of grading systems, but the concept is useful to point out on the front end I think.
    Yes Mike, I think it's an educational tool. To define what various adjectives mean, i.e.- a Condition 3 isn't excellent!
    If both sellers and buyers have some ground rules, no one should be getting BS!
    To answer your second sentence, a bit of knowledge of the product is useful.
    George Carter
    Central Florida
    gcarter763@aol.com
    http://kineticocentralfl.com/


    “If you have to argue your science by using fraud, your science is not valid"
    Professor Ian Plimer, Adilaide and Melbourne Universities

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    Mr. C

    Do you happen to view all the mostly performance boat's for sale on here ? "Powerboat swapshop" https://www.facebook.com/groups/101777369989888/

    Lots of nice stuff is posted here for sale, interesting to see the values and interest in them. Give's a handle on what is selling for what. Last Saturday I went to the NH vintage boat museum's annual auction. There were some nice boats in the auction glass and wood. Surprisingly, not much bidding from a button down collar crowd with $. Most boats were passed over by the auctioneer due to lack of bidding to the reserve. A completely restored 20 something Lyman didnt even reach a 10K bid nor did a 24' mint Chris Craft sea skiff. In glass, a 21 century Coronado, mint condition, one owner - boat house kept sold for 11.5. I think its a tough market for old boats. It is a fact people are buying new pontoon and big dollar ski boats up here. On my lake anyway.

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    Up here in the north it is rust that wrecks our cars unless they are stored in the winter. They can be easily assessed by looking at the undercarriage and door bottoms for signs of rust. A boat can look perfect but have a concealed compromised gas tank and extensive rot in the wood and waterlogged foam, etc. Damage that cannot be seen. Doesn't the fiberglass itself deteriorate if exposed to excessive sunlight? Big difference between cars and boats for sure. It makes me question the building methods and why any wood is even used at all in a boat. Fully cored boats with thin glass skins are especially vulnerable. Boats seem to have a limited life span before needing full structural restoration no matter how well they are taken care of. Therefore the lower value and demand of an old boat as compared to an old car, motorcycle or aircraft.
    Lake St. Clair, Lake Huron, Lake Erie, Lake Oakland

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    I think that we are our own worst enemy when it comes to boat selling. How many times do you see some greenhorn asking advise and what to look for in this Donzi that he's looking at and every time the boat he's looking at is shot to hell with negative comments. For instance let's take Pizzaz as an example. There is going to be some one interested in buying it and will ask opinions on it and what to look for. It will be shot to hell because the paint job is shody ,blistered and has runs "already been done" then it will need a gas tank new fuel system and a survey as all the stringers are soft because Donzi's are so crapily made Why would any one ever buy a Donzi after all of the experts crap on them?
    machinist ,bore it deeper,ream it bigger, and lap it to a fine finish



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    Touché...............

    Very well said Joseph.

    Quote Originally Posted by joseph m. hahnl View Post
    I think that we are our own worst enemy when it comes to boat selling. How many times do you see some greenhorn asking advise and what to look for in this Donzi that he's looking at and every time the boat he's looking at is shot to hell with negative comments. For instance let's take Pizzaz as an example. There is going to be some one interested in buying it and will ask opinions on it and what to look for. It will be shot to hell because the paint job is shody ,blistered and has runs "already been done" then it will need a gas tank new fuel system and a survey as all the stringers are soft because Donzi's are so crapily made Why would any one ever buy a Donzi after all of the experts crap on them?
    I have far too many boats, just ask my Wife.
    If you have something of great quality, and you take care of it, it will last forever.
    Never Economise on Luxuries


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    Quote Originally Posted by joseph m. hahnl View Post
    Why would any one ever buy a Donzi after all of the experts crap on them?
    I don't think it's just Donzi... it's any 46 year old boat. The enthusiasts here just happen to know from experience about things like non sealed cuts and areas of exposure by model. A fuel tank is just common sense after that amount of time. I would imagine wiring, switches and a host of other things that may be suspect on any boat of this age.

    I would say this is sound advice as we don't want those same greenhorns buying a "pig in a poke". I'm sure when you buy something you want full disclosure, right? This is one of the reasons sites like this are here. You call these things negative, yet I only see information as positive (as long as it's good information). If your point is that it's harder to "buffalo" those same greenhorns into over valuing because they have not taken all into account... I say you're right and that's a good thing.

    Maybe we could be our own best friend and list boats for sale at a realistic value instead of hoping to score a "home run" at the expense of the naïve to recoup all we have ever spent on them in one fell swoop.
    Sean Conroy,
    1964 Formula Jr. (hull #2) project

    1972 Greavette Sunflash III
    1981 Kavalk Mistral project

    "A man can accomplish anything... as long as he doesn't care who gets the credit."

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    Price paid times 5X?!?

    I wish!

    I stopped at 7X after paying $5,000. 😳. And it still sits on the trailer it came on.

    And I didn't count a penny for any of the 100s and 100s of hours I put into it.

    Sure is cool though. 😍
    “Oh right, because you walked into strippers discount warehouse and said ‘Help me showcase my intellect.’” - Archer

    Bill
    Grand Rapids, Michigan
    1985 Donzi Criterion SS
    1967 Donzi 16 Ski Sporter, C16-409, Has a new home!
    38' Carver Aft Cabin
    1968 Sea Ray SRV 180 w/1975 70 hp Evinrude
    10" RIB w/15 hp 1984 Evinrude

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    It really bugs me to think that I could have had Ted's Ilmor 22 for quite a bit less then I have in my current 22. If the cash were there I would have snatched that boat up fast and put mine on the market.
    Lake St. Clair, Lake Huron, Lake Erie, Lake Oakland

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    Bert, Joseph,

    With all due respect. Remind me not to ever look at a boat for either of you since I have no idea what I'm talking about. Sorry that I'm catching so much crap for giving my opinion. Last time I looked this site was a place to read peoples opinions on things and learn from what others had to offer. This site sure has changed...In fact the whole DONZI family has changed. Real shame people like you bash certain members on here.

    I know these Hornets inside and out more so than you two ever will. I stand by my findings on Pzazz. I never said it needed coring, stringers or a transom. I never said it needed a motor or that it didn't run. I never said anything about any of the rigging or hardware. I never said what I thought it was worth! I did state that the paint was not up to par. I did suggest areas to look for that might be a problem. I can tell you this...If someone told me the paint was nice and had no issues and I traveled a distance to look at the boat and was expecting one thing and found another I would be one pissed off MOFO!

    Hell...If he gets 40K for the boat it just makes my Hornets worth a ton more. I'm not trashing this boat or stating false information. I made an offer on the boat and it wasn't excepted. I'm good with that. I already have a few Hornets...I really don't need another one.

    The crazy thing is I have had 2 members contact me in an almost threatening manner because of my opinion. Last time I looked this was still a free country. Real shame some people are like this...maybe they should run for President...They would fit right in!

    Scott Pearson
    President, Lake George Donzi Classic Club
    www.lgdonziclassic.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Say N20 View Post
    Price paid times 5X?!?

    I wish!

    I stopped at 7X after paying $5,000. . And it still sits on the trailer it came on.

    And I didn't count a penny for any of the 100s and 100s of hours I put into it.

    Sure is cool though. 
    X 6 or X7 is probably closer to the truth, but X 5 is still a benchmark I think.
    And you can always save money at times. For instance, I was able to barter a trailer for the Minx for a water softener.
    George Carter
    Central Florida
    gcarter763@aol.com
    http://kineticocentralfl.com/


    “If you have to argue your science by using fraud, your science is not valid"
    Professor Ian Plimer, Adilaide and Melbourne Universities

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Pearson View Post
    Bert, Joseph,

    With all due respect. Remind me not to ever look at a boat for either of you since I have no idea what I'm talking about. Sorry that I'm catching so much crap for giving my opinion. Last time I looked this site was a place to read peoples opinions on things and learn from what others had to offer. This site sure has changed...In fact the whole DONZI family has changed. Real shame people like you bash certain members on here.

    I know these Hornets inside and out more so than you two ever will. I stand by my findings on Pzazz. I never said it needed coring, stringers or a transom. I never said it needed a motor or that it didn't run. I never said anything about any of the rigging or hardware. I never said what I thought it was worth! I did state that the paint was not up to par. I did suggest areas to look for that might be a problem. I can tell you this...If someone told me the paint was nice and had no issues and I traveled a distance to look at the boat and was expecting one thing and found another I would be one pissed off MOFO!

    Hell...If he gets 40K for the boat it just makes my Hornets worth a ton more. I'm not trashing this boat or stating false information. I made an offer on the boat and it wasn't excepted. I'm good with that. I already have a few Hornets...I really don't need another one.

    The crazy thing is I have had 2 members contact me in an almost threatening manner because of my opinion. Last time I looked this was still a free country. Real shame some people are like this...maybe they should run for President...They would fit right in!
    Scott I was not pointing you out nor was I trying to diminish your expertise in knowledge and skill on the old Hornets . I was merely generalizing and used the paint comment and comments that other members also made in the same thread. Don't be so narcissistic it's not always about you Oh and thanks for not looking at a Donzi for me because I already have one and frankly I think my Minx is a quality boat even if the paint job sucks Peace brother
    machinist ,bore it deeper,ream it bigger, and lap it to a fine finish



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    Quote Originally Posted by joseph m. hahnl View Post
    I think that we are our own worst enemy when it comes to boat selling. How many times do you see some greenhorn asking advise and what to look for in this Donzi that he's looking at and every time the boat he's looking at is shot to hell with negative comments. For instance let's take Pizzaz as an example. There is going to be some one interested in buying it and will ask opinions on it and what to look for. It will be shot to hell because the paint job is shody ,blistered and has runs "already been done" then it will need a gas tank new fuel system and a survey as all the stringers are soft because Donzi's are so crapily made Why would any one ever buy a Donzi after all of the experts crap on them?
    Joe, this is where honesty comes into play. If someone asks here what to look for in a 25 year old Donzi, should no one say that tanks can be an issue? Or to explain all those cracks in the cockpit floor will only get worse over time? Or that all those issues can be fixed pretty easily, or not at great expense? If I were really interested in a particular boat and wanted some negotiating material, I would like to know those things and that if the owner would be reasonable in his asking price so I could spend $10K on the required work. After all, there's a lot more $5K-$10K Minx's around than there are really good $20K Minx's. If it's a Minx you want and know you'll have to pay $20K for a good one, you'll either negotiate harder for a good unrestored boat so the necessary work can be done, or chase down one of the few good ones. But if you're new to Donzi's, wouldn't you want to know?
    George Carter
    Central Florida
    gcarter763@aol.com
    http://kineticocentralfl.com/


    “If you have to argue your science by using fraud, your science is not valid"
    Professor Ian Plimer, Adilaide and Melbourne Universities

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    Joseph,
    Thanks for the reply... It's all good.

    Scott Pearson
    President, Lake George Donzi Classic Club
    www.lgdonziclassic.com

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