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Thread: This Donzi Upholstery Work Is Unacceptable!

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Pearson View Post
    Carl,
    I’m not disputing your pictures. All that I’msaying is that something else is going on to make this happen. If that wasn’t thecase the front seat bottoms would be doing the same thing as would the rest ofthe interior seats.
    Exactly, Scott. That is what we will try to get to the bottom of. There was a long discussion about the original failure on two threads and we (I and this board) finally chalked it up to someone using a harmful product on the rear seat without my knowledge. This replacement back seat cushion has been babied. To answer a previous question: No, there is nothing in the underseat compartment except the stern light. It's a bi*tch to get into that compartment so I don't use it. Now that we have sunlight I just snapped this pic of the two original front seat bottoms. They get stepped on often. They used to get cleaned with magic erasers and dish soap. They have seen many applications of vinyl conditioner (not 303). They have seen the same sun tan oils and sunscreen that the rear seat has. Yet they are still in excellent condition. I just don't know what is going on. If Josh is out west then it is still too early to call so I will mow the yard first! Stay tuned. (I think Mike's mad at me because he and a couple other's were the first recipients of negative rep from me! )
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Lake St. Clair, Lake Huron, Lake Erie, Lake Oakland

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    Carl, this may sound like an affront but it is only intended an honest question asked with a reason, to try to promote tempered civility on the board. Do you understand a lie to be something a person knows is untrue but says is true anyway? Whereas, when a person believes something is true and says it, but it actually isn't true, that's a mistake but not a lie?

    I ask as I don't see any firm evidence that HS did anything but make a mistake (if he even did that). It simply looks like he may have confused Greg G's statements with yours.

    Now, for comparison, right off the bat you, in an outraged tone, blamed PPI and DD for delivering shoddy work when it is not known (not even yet) that they did any such thing. And a good deal of evidence suggests they did not do it, just as much as any evidence they did. You called HS a liar rather than saying he was incorrect about something (if he was even wrong, I don't claim to know but it appears likely that you can't know either). You also said posts could not be edited without a note below them appearing from the system, as proof HS is a liar. Are these lies, or mistakes on your part? By your standard for HS they are lies. Will you thus call yourself out as a serial liar, or alternatively, apologize to HS for calling him one? Seems like it should be one or the other, FWIW.

    And again, I say this with friendly intent, because the distinction between being wrong and lying is important to understand or civility doesn't stand a chance in a place like this.
    If it was a mistake then he should come back on here and apologize because his "mistake" caused other's to attack me. He has 28 posts in 6 years and saw a need to call me a liar. You'd better get your facts straight before doing that. I expressed my true feelings of disgust after seeing the tears starting in my new seat. Now let's please not start with another one of your epic debates unless you can offer some constructive info on what might be going on with my seat. Thank you.
    Lake St. Clair, Lake Huron, Lake Erie, Lake Oakland

  3. #63
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    Carl - My apologies for stirring up the pot on this issue. I have no skin in this issue other than seeing good companies un-necessarily being called to the carpet on a public forum. True, I am not a heavy poster (on any forums for that matter) but rather use the boards for entertainment and to learn more about my passion for boating.

    When I first read this thread I "recall" there was mention of perhaps DD could have used an alternate supplier. I did not dream this up. If I made a "mistake" in that recollection I do sincerely apologize. However, it seems others seem to share the same recollection.

    FWIW - I have done business with PPI and had a very successful experience. It bothers me to see good companies brought down for things which they are unable to control or given attempt to remedy.

    Remember - public forums are all about opinions; this is mine.


    EDIT - I re-read page 4. Carl I do owe you an apology. I read the thread too quick and mixed your posts with Greg G.'s. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I made a mistake and willing to step up and call myself out! I will EDIT my prior post to remove any confusion on that topic.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl C View Post
    If it was a mistake then he should come back on here and apologize because his "mistake" caused other's to attack me. He has 28 posts in 6 years and saw a need to call me a liar. You'd better get your facts straight before doing that. I expressed my true feelings of disgust after seeing the tears starting in my new seat. Now let's please not start with another one of your epic debates unless you can offer some constructive info on what might be going on with my seat. Thank you.
    I normally don't get involved in these types of things and i am sure that i am going to regret it, but this just doesn't seem like a fair fight - and i blame the internet. All too often people take to the proverbial pen to threaten a business to get what they want whether they deserve it or not.

    Carl - While in your previous posts you admit the seat is 2 1/2 years old and you are now see a problem with it, you did not give DD or PPI any opportunity to rectify or respond before you started bashing them here in a very public way. I would truly be disappointed too and if I thought there was any shot at getting it resolved, my first course of action would have been to call Josh and see what could be done.

    And now you just called it a NEW seat which is being misleading - it is 2 1/2 years old.

    Lastly, I am no expert on upholstery and a lot of theories have been suggested, but the truth is that the seat is 2 1/2 years old and there is no telling what has been done to it since it left PPI's shop - how long should they warranty their work against normal or excessive wear and tear?

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl C View Post
    If it was a mistake then he should come back on here and apologize because his "mistake" caused other's to attack me. He has 28 posts in 6 years and saw a need to call me a liar. You'd better get your facts straight before doing that. I expressed my true feelings of disgust after seeing the tears starting in my new seat. Now let's please not start with another one of your epic debates unless you can offer some constructive info on what might be going on with my seat. Thank you.
    EXACTLY what facts don't I have straight? My whole post was to straighten out that which is known versus not known, and the difference in calling someone a 'liar' when they have said something they know to be false (an actual lie) versus when they have said something that they believe to be true but is not (a mistake).

    As for a mistake causing others to attack you, the WHOLE THREAD is a set of responses to you claiming that DD and PPI did shoddy work, which REMAINS unproved. Everyone one in the pool is here because you made a claim which STILL isn't known to be true, in an accusing manner that was unfair to DD and PPI. The whole thread is a function of you not having YOUR facts straight, nor being civil and fair in addressing a MYSTERY.

    I don't have a dog in the fight about your cushion's issue. I DO have an interest in the mystery. And I'm trying to lift out of the sewer parts of the discussion that are in the sewer. What's amazing is how civil and sensible so many people have actually been.

    I repeat, please go back to my prior post where you claim I had "better get my facts straight" and quote it, listing the facts that I don't have straight.


    EDIT: here, I'll make it easy. I'll put the quote up for you so you don't even have to go back to the prior page.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    Carl, this may sound like an affront but it is only intended an honest question asked with a reason, to try to promote tempered civility on the board. Do you understand a lie to be something a person knows is untrue but says is true anyway? Whereas, when a person believes something is true and says it, but it actually isn't true, that's a mistake but not a lie?

    I ask as I don't see any firm evidence that HS did anything but make a mistake (if he even did that). It simply looks like he may have confused Greg G's statements with yours.

    Now, for comparison, right off the bat you, in an outraged tone, blamed PPI and DD for delivering shoddy work when it is not known (not even yet) that they did any such thing. And a good deal of evidence suggests they did not do it, just as much as any evidence they did. You called HS a liar rather than saying he was incorrect about something (if he was even wrong, I don't claim to know but it appears likely that you can't know either). You also said posts could not be edited without a note below them appearing from the system, as proof HS is a liar. Are these lies, or mistakes on your part? By your standard for HS they are lies. Will you thus call yourself out as a serial liar, or alternatively, apologize to HS for calling him one? Seems like it should be one or the other, FWIW.

    And again, I say this with friendly intent, because the distinction between being wrong and lying is important to understand or civility doesn't stand a chance in a place like this.
    "I don't have time to get into it, but he went through a lot." -Pulp Fiction

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    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Smokes View Post
    Carl - My apologies for stirring up the pot on this issue. I have no skin in this issue other than seeing good companies un-necessarily being called to the carpet on a public forum. True, I am not a heavy poster (on any forums for that matter) but rather use the boards for entertainment and to learn more about my passion for boating.

    When I first read this thread I "recall" there was mention of perhaps DD could have used an alternate supplier. I did not dream this up. If I made a "mistake" in that recollection I do sincerely apologize. However, it seems others seem to share the same recollection.

    FWIW - I have done business with PPI and had a very successful experience. It bothers me to see good companies brought down for things which they are unable to control or given attempt to remedy.

    Remember - public forums are all about opinions; this is mine.


    EDIT - I re-read page 4. Carl I do owe you an apology. I read the thread too quick and mixed your posts with Greg G.'s. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I made a mistake and willing to step up and call myself out! I will EDIT my prior post to remove any confusion on that topic.
    Thank you for that. We all make mistakes. Apology accepted.

    Quote Originally Posted by seano View Post
    I normally don't get involved in these types of things and i am sure that i am going to regret it, but this just doesn't seem like a fair fight - and i blame the internet. All too often people take to the proverbial pen to threaten a business to get what they want whether they deserve it or not.

    Carl - While in your previous posts you admit the seat is 2 1/2 years old and you are now see a problem with it, you did not give DD or PPI any opportunity to rectify or respond before you started bashing them here in a very public way. I would truly be disappointed too and if I thought there was any shot at getting it resolved, my first course of action would have been to call Josh and see what could be done.

    And now you just called it a NEW seat which is being misleading - it is 2 1/2 years old.

    Lastly, I am no expert on upholstery and a lot of theories have been suggested, but the truth is that the seat is 2 1/2 years old and there is no telling what has been done to it since it left PPI's shop - how long should they warranty their work against normal or excessive wear and tear?
    I never said that PPI should warranty my seat. I expressed my disgust because now I would be looking at buying yet another rear seat very soon. What I said was how I felt. That my next rear seat would come from another source. The seat is well out of warranty. If they do anything to help me then they are going well above and beyond the customer service that I have come to expect in this industry (with few exceptions). I don't feel that I was too harsh in expressing my disgust in my replacement (not new anymore ) seat starting to fail so soon. I never thought to contact DonziDirect or PPI as it has been 2 1/2 years. Now Josh has contacted me and is showing interest in at least getting to the bottom of this. I didn't expect that. I hope to talk to Josh soon. The yard work is done. I will not air out everything that is discussed between us and if no help is offered on a 2 1/2 year old seat then I understand and do not blame them. I would just have to try another upholsterer and see if it holds up longer. I don't feel that I threw anyone under the bus here. Maybe it's time for us all to take some chill pills and see how this plays out. My main concern is solving the mystery of my rear seat failures while the rest of the interior is holding up well. We've discussed that to death on the other threads. Now I will see what Josh and Lee can come up with as a possible cause. Again, if they do not offer a replacement seat I understand. That was never what I was seeking. I didn't even think that Josh was still with DonziDirect. So...here...pass these around
    Lake St. Clair, Lake Huron, Lake Erie, Lake Oakland

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl C View Post
    I don't feel that I threw anyone under the bus here.
    Umm, the thread is called "This Donzi Upholstery Work is Unacceptable!" [exclamatory emphasis NOT added] and your first post IS the callout of DD and PPI. You say, RIGHT AT THE START, that their work is unacceptable.

    Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, what's "throwing someone under the bus" actually look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl C View Post
    Maybe it's time for us all to take some chill pills and see how this plays out.
    Actually, the time to take a chill pill was before you hit the button on your first post. And it was the time for YOU to chill out. Everyone else here has been responding to a mess you made, in one form or another.

    I REPEAT: you told me I had "better get my facts straight" in response to my post that's been quoted above. If you are so interested in fairness and apologies where they are due, how about explaining EXACTLY WHAT FACTS I DON'T HAVE STRAIGHT in that post?
    "I don't have time to get into it, but he went through a lot." -Pulp Fiction

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    Ahhhhhh...... I'm feeling better already!

    Weekend is almost here. Time to go boating!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Smokes View Post
    Ahhhhhh...... I'm feeling better already!

    Weekend is almost here. Time to go boating!
    I hear ya! I keep thinking I'm on OSO!
    Lake St. Clair, Lake Huron, Lake Erie, Lake Oakland

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    Umm, the thread is called "This Donzi Upholstery Work is Unacceptable!" [exclamatory emphasis NOT added] and your first post IS the callout of DD and PPI. You say, RIGHT AT THE START, that their work is unacceptable.

    Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, what's "throwing someone under the bus" actually look like?

    Actually, the time to take a chill pill was before you hit the button on your first post. And it was the time for YOU to chill out. Everyone else here has been responding to a mess you made, in one form or another.

    I REPEAT: you told me I had "better get my facts straight" in response to my post that's been quoted above. If you are so interested in fairness and apologies where they are due, how about explaining EXACTLY WHAT FACTS I DON'T HAVE STRAIGHT in that post?
    +1
    Onwards before this slippery saga saps any more thought.

    1971 Donzi 18' 2+3
    1985 Eliminator 23' Daytona Offshore - Kevlar hull
    1988 23' Donzi CC F-23 with 250HP EFI Mercury OB
    1989 28' Team Warlock Offshore - single 548CID/600HP
    1990 23' Warlock Offshore - single 525HP
    Bill from Denison, TX - Lake Texoma

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl C View Post
    I don't feel that I was too harsh in expressing my disgust in my replacement (not new anymore ) seat starting to fail so soon.
    This is VERY telling, BTW, in understanding a broken thought. You don't think you were "too harsh?" Too harsh toward whom? Whether something is too harsh depends on whether it is deserved.

    It's one thing to be furiously frustrated with the universe because yet another seat is falling apart. Anyone can relate to that frustration. And I have trouble imagining anyone telling you that you shouldn't be incredibly frustrated, even if it's your own fault that another seat is falling apart.

    The problem is that your statement above is implicitly dishonest (whether because you intended it, or whether you made a mistake). The problem is that statement WRONGLY IMPLIES that your "harsh" statement wasn't directed at the unknown forces that vexed you with yet another mysterious seat problem. Rather, your "harsh" statement was saying, in an outraged tone, that DD and PPI had delivered shoddy work to you.

    You decided to convict DD and PPI of a crime where there's ALL SORTS OF DOUBT as to the cause. This is the difference between getting mad and shaking one's fist in the air or punching a bystander. One is just a tantrum, the other is sociopathy.

    From your lack of responses above, I gather you have no evidence of any actual "facts" that I didn't "get straight" in my quoted post. Not much of a surprise. Next act.
    "I don't have time to get into it, but he went through a lot." -Pulp Fiction

  12. #72
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    Ghost, please take your chill pill. Of your eleven posts on this thread only two are remotely helpful. What I said was that someone had better get their facts straight before calling someone else a liar. Maybe I worded it wrong but I'm pretty sure that most understood me. That other person and I have already put the misunderstanding behind us.

    I am awaiting a call back from Josh.

    Thank you to others whom I have seen viewing this thread for not jumping into this mess. Thank you to all who have expressed honest feelings either positive or negative in a civil manner.

    Time to move along. There is nothing to see here.

    Ghost, stop, please. . . . . . .
    Lake St. Clair, Lake Huron, Lake Erie, Lake Oakland

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl C View Post
    Ghost, please take your chill pill. Of your eleven posts on this thread only two are remotely helpful. What I said was that someone had better get their facts straight before calling someone else a liar. Maybe I worded it wrong but I'm pretty sure that most understood me. That other person and I have already put the misunderstanding behind us.

    I am awaiting a call back from Josh.

    Thank you to others whom I have seen viewing this thread for not jumping into this mess. Thank you to all who have expressed honest feelings either positive or negative in a civil manner.

    Time to move along. There is nothing to see here.
    Anyone can read the posts and see how uncivil and un-chilled you have been, right from the start, blaming if not the innocent then certainly the un-convicted for your cushions.

    If your point (read closely, the wording is actually ambiguous) was not that I had better get my facts straight but that HS had better get HIS facts straight before calling you a liar, that only makes my point even more. You called him a liar when he simply made a mistake. Just as you called out DD and PPI for delivering shoddy work to you when there is no proof of anything of the sort. The evidence points partly to the seat maker and partly to you. An objective read of the evidence is very clear on that.

    You made numerous unfounded accusations and demanded apologies with outraged indignation over how you've been wronged, but you don't share any of that outrage about your own misbehavior.

    I have tried here to help you think sensibly about the mystery of the cushion and root causes, about being civil, about not accusing people without evidence, about the difference between lying and making a mistake and about the right way to deal with the vendors in your specific case. All to no avail it seems. I suppose I am a bit of a fool for trying, I do admit that.

    Bill, you are right as usual. Time for me to move on.
    "I don't have time to get into it, but he went through a lot." -Pulp Fiction

  14. #74
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    My Donzi has been gone for 5 years this summer. I sometimes lurk here, just to see what's up. Some things never change.....

    Carl: You just can't catch a break. I've known you since you bought your boat and we even met face-to-face at White Lake one summer at a meet up.

    You are one of the most impassioned boaters/owners I know. Your boat ownership experiences, between the hull recall, the rear-end accident, the threatening note on your windshield, the complicated engine swap and now this seat problem, have provided you with much aggravation and us much entertainment, enlightenment and new-found knowledge to last a lifetime.

    Each time some **** hits your fan, you come out better and with a thicker skin. Stay the course. Some might not like your methods, but they sure can't question your passion or your loyalty to the brand!
    Randy

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    Quote Originally Posted by gold-n-rod View Post
    My Donzi has been gone for 5 years this summer. I sometimes lurk here, just to see what's up. Some things never change.....

    Carl: You just can't catch a break. I've known you since you bought your boat and we even met face-to-face at White Lake one summer at a meet up.

    You are one of the most impassioned boaters/owners I know. Your boat ownership experiences, between the hull recall, the rear-end accident, the threatening note on your windshield, the complicated engine swap and now this seat problem, have provided you with much aggravation and us much entertainment, enlightenment and new-found knowledge to last a lifetime.

    Each time some **** hits your fan, you come out better and with a thicker skin. Stay the course. Some might not like your methods, but they sure can't question your passion or your loyalty to the brand!
    Good to hear from you Randy. I hope you are well. I will never forget our gathering on White Lake where I met you and Todd & the other Randy and Trueser and Dr. Dan and whoever I'm forgetting now. I remember venturing onto Lake Michigan twice in true 6 footers. Trueser drove in with his bigger Donzi but I think that Todd and I were the only ones who planed out briefly in the 6 footers. Yikes!

    This was my first internet forum and I cut my teeth here. Scot helped me out a lot in the early times when I screwed the pooch. A very good man, Scot was.

    Yes, I've gained some forum skills since then but I also don't take any sh*t anymore either! Take care buddy. Thanks for posting.
    Lake St. Clair, Lake Huron, Lake Erie, Lake Oakland

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