This Donzi Upholstery Work Is Unacceptable!

[Tidbart]

Carl,

I am by no means a sewing expert, but it appears as thought the threads are very tight and cutting through the vinyl. I wonder if it is possible to have too much tension on the threads during the sewing as to do this. Like I said, no sewing expert here.

B

[roadtrip se]

I'm usually silent on these issues, but I have concern that you felt it necessary to call out two shops (Donzi Direct and PPI) that have not even had the opportunity to investigate and attempt to remedy the issue. In addition, the "shock value" of ripped seams in the photos is not even from the work they completed.

Let's allow these providers with rather excellent resume's handle it from their end before dragging them through the muck.

My $.02

Yep, better ways to handle this. Like picking up the phone and giving someone a chance to act, before posting it on an enthusiast site. Then you could post on how well the company handled the issues. Reputation is huge in today's world.
I for one don't like surprises, so I can imagine how Josh is reacting, but I know he will react in the appropriate fashion. Always does.

[jvcobra]

I'm usually silent on these issues, but I have concern that you felt it necessary to call out two shops (Donzi Direct and PPI) that have not even had the opportunity to investigate and attempt to remedy the issue. In addition, the "shock value" of ripped seams in the photos is not even from the work they completed.

Let's allow these providers with rather excellent resume's handle it from their end before dragging them through the muck.

My $.02

I agree, dick move.

[Greg Guimond]

Hardly a call out thread against Josh when there are about a dozen people who comment and read this site. Carl got a bum deal twice, not once. As was said several times in the thread PPI has an excellent reputation as does Josh. I'm thinking it was a suppler issue

[VetteLT193]

I wonder if there is something in your garage off gassing? What is in there that could put off any fumes or exhaust of any kind? Heater, water heater, pool stuff, anything?

It was odd the first time and more so this time. One could abuse the boat for a couple years and not have an issue so it's either a horrible coincidence or something in the air

Putting it online is appropriate. Getting others thoughts, opinions, and ideas is a good way to get to the bottom of an issue most times. Some just can't take that concept of being open

[Ghost]

Putting it online is appropriate. Getting others thoughts, opinions, and ideas is a good way to get to the bottom of an issue most times. Some just can't take that concept of being open

i agree it's fine to put online. I think the objection some have (rightly) raised is to do only with placing blame where blame is as yet uncertain. "WTF is going on with my seat this time?" would have been very different from "this upholstery work is unacceptable," no?

Examining the problem, you started doing the same thing I did: looking for potential causes, whatever they might be. Which makes perfect sense. Occam's razor kinda leads in two different directions here. On the one hand, it seems like the upholstery should be fine as no clear cause seems to account for the damage, and thus the seats must be defective. On the other, a rare thing has happened twice to the same particular cushion in the same boat, suggesting some environmental peculiarity or other abuse.

It's interesting. Mrs. White Vinyl in the factory with a needle? Or Colonel Mustard in the cockpit without a shirt?

[Conquistador_del_mar]

Carl,
If I were in your shoes I would be checking the environment where the boat is stored or consider the possibility of some nefarious source of the damage. To me that damage looks like what muriatic acid damage would look like.

[ClassicFanatic]

My original seats are 21 years old and still perfect.

[gcarter]

Carl,
If I were in your shoes I would be checking the environment where the boat is stored or consider the possibility of some nefarious source of the damage. To me that damage looks like what muriatic acid damage would look like.

Bill, I sort of agree, but in this case, Carl said the front buckets are OK.
Also, if it were muriatic (or other) acid, it'd probably affect the stitches and it doesn't seem to have.

[Offset]

Too lazy to read all the way back but I do have question. Was the cushion changed when the new upholstery was installed? If not the is it possible that the foam could be contaminated with something?

[Carl C]

Too lazy to read all the way back but I do have question. Was the cushion changed when the new upholstery was installed? If not the is it possible that the foam could be contaminated with something?

Entire seat bottom was replaced. Boat is always kept in an unheated garage and the seats are never touched during the winter. The back seat sees nothing that the front ones don't and this one has only seen warm water, tanning oil and sunscreen, same as the front seats. The front seats have also seen dish soap and magic erasers and they are OK. No tears or cracks at all in the original front seats. Here is the original thread. The rear seat backs are also cracking in this thread but the upholstery is not ripping apart. http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthre...ing&highlight=

I will contact PPI but I doubt that they will offer any help after 2 1/2 seasons of use. Josh is no longer involved in the day to day dealings of Donzi Direct. Josh has always been good to me. I have every right to express how I feel about PPI on this thread and if no help is offered I will never use them again. Donzi Direct sold their product and so it is now a bad reflection on them also. Them's the facts! Like it or not.

edit: This was my first thread dealing with this issue: http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthre...eat&highlight=

edit 2: I just spoke with a top guy at PPI, don't want to give names now. He was very reassuring that we can resolve this issue. He is concerned about why this has happened twice and doesn't want to get into a position of making seat after seat after seat. It seems that Donzi Josh does still own Donzi Direct but has not been as involved in the day to day dealings there as he is busy with other things too. I was informed that Josh has been made aware of this thread and that he may be contacting me in the near future. That would be great. It sounds like they are concerned about this issue and do want to keep their good reputations. Hopefully we will get to the bottom of it. After pages of speculation on why my original rear seats failed so badly just to see it happening again to my replacement seat is very frustrating. The back seat does not get stepped on. We usually step on a front seat with bare feet. This seat has not been abused and sees less use and pounding than the front seats do. What we have here is a genuine mystery. To go back now and delete everything negative that I said about PPI and DD would be pointless at this time. Who would not be disgusted in my situation? If we can resolve this problem then I will be praising the customer service of PPI and DD. This is more of a PPI issue since they were the manufacturer. I just now took some pics of my interior to post. The front seats are still very nice and take more beating than the rear one does. They do not have PPI tags on them but they were probably made by PPI. We are working on a resolution. Here are pics:

[Ghost]

I would say repeated periods of kneeling on the seats and reaching far into the motorbox is different from anything front seats get. The foam gets fully compressed and stays that way while people move around, with all or nearly all body weight just on the knees, often pushed to one when maneuvering around. A quick step on the front seats to get up or down is much different. Not saying that is at FAULT here, but it's very different from stepping on the front seats enough to get in and out of the cockpit.

With all those wing nuts to loosen and tighten for every launch (priming the strainer), that seems like one way there might be more stress on the bench seat cushion if you spend a couple minutes every trip like that. For contrast, I kneel on the bench to open the hatch and then take a look in, and flip the battery switch here and there, but I bet it's 1/10th to 1/20th the kneeling time and stress it takes to loosen and tighten six or eight wing nuts well down in the bilge each time.

I also see where many righties actually kneel left-of-center to deal with the latch, and/or to lean down in one side or the other of the motor box. Which side is the strainer on, port or starboard? Again, just hunting for things that are different from other boats in this case.

Also thought about different materials (like different foams used for different pieces, based on support (stiffer for seat bases, softer for seat backs, whatever)) but one would think we'd see issues across many boats if that were the case.

[Carl C]

I would say repeated periods of kneeling on the seats and reaching far into the motorbox is different from anything front seats get. The foam gets fully compressed and stays that way while people move around, with all or nearly all body weight just on the knees, often pushed to one when maneuvering around. A quick step on the front seats to get up or down is much different. Not saying that is at FAULT here, but it's very different from stepping on the front seats enough to get in and out of the cockpit.

With all those wing nuts to loosen and tighten for every launch (priming the strainer), that seems like one way there might be more stress on the bench seat cushion if you spend a couple minutes every trip like that. For contrast, I kneel on the bench to open the hatch and then take a look in, and flip the battery switch here and there, but I bet it's 1/10th to 1/20th the kneeling time and stress it takes to loosen and tighten six or eight wing nuts well down in the bilge each time.

I also see where many righties actually kneel left-of-center to deal with the latch, and/or to lean down in one side or the other of the motor box. Which side is the strainer on, port or starboard? Again, just hunting for things that are different from other boats in this case.

Also thought about different materials (like different foams used for different pieces, based on support (stiffer for seat bases, softer for seat backs, whatever)) but one would think we'd see issues across many boats if that were the case.

The strainer only needs priming the first time out in the spring. Where did you get that from? When I kneel on the back seat it is in the center, This damage is starting on the starboard side. See my last post as I added some important updates.

[Ghost]

The strainer only needs priming the first time out in the spring. Where did you get that from? When I kneel on the back seat it is in the center, This damage is starting on the starboard side. See my last post as I added some important updates.

Thought you told me you primed it every trip.

[DonziJosh]

Carl,

While it is true that I am no longer involved in the day to day operations at DonziDirect, it doesn’t mean I’ve walked away from the business and it doesn’t mean we’ve turned our backs on you or any of our other customers. Back in December of 2011, we shipped you the upholstered aft seat cushion you ordered. That’s all I knew until I stumbled upon your thread proclaiming “I will never use Donzi Direct or PPI for any future upholstery work” alongside a photo of your boat’s old cushion that I didn’t sell you. This sparked all kinds of speculation, including suggestions that DonziDirect used some unknown shop to expedite orders (even though your cushion came from PPI with a PPI packing slip and a PPI tag sewn into it). There is absolutely no animosity here; I understand your frustration, but man, I wish you’d just reached out to us first!

To address all the interested parties here, and to hopefully bring some closure to this thread:

Upon discovering this thread on Monday I made PPI aware of the issue and forwarded the photos Carl posted to PPI’s president, Lee Wingard for review and response. He of course agreed that the wear shown in the photographs is not normal. While there’s no way to draw a definitive conclusion, and while we’re only looking at close-up shots of the stitching, PPI believes that since this damage is occurring in one particular spot, it appears to be a traffic area and that the most likely cause of damage would be stepping, kneeling, or otherwise causing traffic wear on the cushion. The damaged vinyl beneath the threads looks, in PPI’s opinion, like the result of abrasive action from dirt, sand, or other substances tracked aboard from shoes and feet that got caught under the threads.

Could it be a material defect in the new cushion we sent in 2011? Anything is possible. However, the fact that the customer had this problem before, and now seems to be having it again, would seem to indicate that this is not a material defect, because the original cushion and the replacement were produced many years apart, and also because the accelerated wear is limited to this one area.

Again, I must stress that this is all only speculation from a few photos and not the result of firsthand analysis of the damaged cushion, but these guys are experts, and they are among the very best at what they do. PPI has supplied every single Donzi Classic tuck & roll cushion to the Donzi factory since 1996. DonziDirect has shipped hundreds of PPI tuck & roll cushions to Donzi Classic customers. If this was a widespread problem, we'd know about it.

Whatever is causing this problem seems to be somewhat of a mystery, but it is an isolated one. Regardless, we will stand behind our products. Carl, please call us so that we may begin the process of getting you taken care of. 888.441.1614. Or shoot us an email with a number so we can reach you. info@donzidirect.com.

DonziDirect , together with its supplier partners, will continue to do their very best to stand behind their products. and support the Donzi enthusiast community. Thank you to our customers and friends for their ongoing support.