Bench Seat Hornet Values??? Thoughts?

[mattyboy]

Damnit ! You forgot the 'head' ! I can't believe how cool that is in a 19' open boat.

There isn't a chick on the planet who thinks your boat is impractical .

they say money you invest in bathrooms and kitchens comes back three fold

[Greg Guimond]

Yes, I have 90% of the receipts and most (the first half anyway) on a spreadsheet. I'm waiting for a slow day so I can get our accountant to do the rest, but the number is pretty accurate. Also, I suppose glass shops work for $90.00/hour. I'm grateful I had very little outside work done. Most of the outside work was machine shop, welding shop, etc.

Mr. Carter in addition to your overall talent you also have a very unique ability to source used items and then retro-fit them into your restoration strategy with a "better than original" end result. That saves a fair amount of money. I would also think that glass work in most parts of the country at $90 an hour would be correct. So in the end, I guess a buyer would be doing extremely well to fully restore the BS Hornet to a Level 9 for $50,000 ..... on top of the purchase price.

I guess the current owner of the BS Hornet does not have an actual ad out for the boat, maybe it's more Lake George NY word of mouth that it's for sale for $40k-$30K-$20k.

[RockyS18]

Look, I haven't read the whole thread, but I understand that there is some criticism about the asking price. What's the problem? Maybe it is outrageous in your opinions. But it's a one owner boat that has been in the guy's family his whole life. It's one-of-a-kind, the first made, nonetheless with the largest engine package available. The engine alone is valuable to a car collector. But that's not the point. The sentimental value is the point. I don't think he is in any rush to sell it, and probably doesn't need to, which justifies the high price. He's not going to give away all those memories when he can just wait around for the right buyer who falls in love with the boat.

I'm doing the same thing with my car. I'm in no rush to sell it, so it is listed for a (likely much) higher asking price than it's worth. If the right buyer falls in love with the car (it is a sports car with a rare and sought after color/option combo), then I'm happy to sell for the high price. But I'm not going to give away something that I don't need to give away at the moment.

[Scott Pearson]

Rocky, Please read the WHOLE thread. The original owner does not own it any longer. Its not one of a kind nor the first made. Once again...please read the entire thread before you comment.

[jl1962]

I think as this thread approaches page 7 that all of the pros and cons of this awesome boat have been stated and restated several times. I get it, part of the fun here is price discovery, these boats don't change hands very often and they are all different after nearly 5 decades. It's not like getting a quote on GE.

But I think it's time to take a deep breath and let the market process work.

Good luck to the buyer and the seller!

[Greg Guimond]

7 pages? For me that's a sand wedge lol. It'll be hard to sell the boat at any price without an actual advertisement from the current owner

[Sweet Cheekz]

Interesting thread and topic.
Just a few comments from the bleachers
Obviously the market is a small one for a restored Donzi thats priced at even half or less than what is into it but I think what makes it even harder is the nature of the resto. For example I think the sting is one of the coolest and best done restorations I ever saw but I could never part with 40-60k for the performance the boat offers. Using the same logic, many buyers of a restored Donzi dont consider mine at almost any price because of the non original upgrades. Neither is wrong for any one individual but it splits a small field even smaller. Regardless of whats been spent on a resto, if its well done the potential buyer still has to be moved by everything about the boat to cut a big check for a boat that just isnt very large and on paper is old. In addition there are more than a few restorations that werent very well done.

The second challenge I see is that many uninformed buyers dont have any idea what upgrades and restoration truely costs if its going to be done right. I have just enough knowledge to know that if Scott does a glass upgrade it looks to be perfect from the few examples I have seen. Many others have spent money for someone else to do the job, and like Carls story they dont get done right. Im glad Carls did eventually get done to his satisfaction but at the end of the day in my humble opinion Donzi did not build very many high quality boats. The designs were great, the styling was like few others and the history is unbeatable but the build quality sucked bad. I have heard about how fabulous Georges boat is from many people most likely because he has been lovingly paying attention to every detail for many years. There are many other examples on this board of what I am talking about. These restorations take a lot of time and money and most buyers dont appreciate those hard facts

I see potential buyers pass on my boat to buy mid 90's 22's that they envision as turnkey 60 mph boats that look great for 20-30k only to find that eventually they end up putting 10-20k into repairs or off the boats unrepaired to some other unsuspecting buyer and when they are done what do they have? A 60 mph boat that looks and runs like it did before. Not saying thats wrong but if potential buyers really cracked open a Donzi and saw whats doing on the inside they might narrow their searches and be more particular on what they buy and be willing to pay more upfront to pay way less later. High quality and or high performance come at a high cost and any potential buyer has to appreciate that or none of these boats will sell for anywhere near what they are worth

As for the hornet, like most of us have said before, the market will ultimately determine what they bring and I hope its a lot becuase they are very cool boats. Everyone who has restored a Donzi and spent a lot of money knew going in that they werent going to be making a trainload of money. Thats not what I thought. I loved the whole two year process and I love the final result. Now I need to find the right person to appreciate what I did and pay me less than half of what I invested to enjoy it. Thats harder than you would think but best of luck to all trying
Parnell

[mattyboy]

Thought this site was an informational and discussion board about these wonderful boats. Yes 7 pages and it has wondered a bit as all longer threads do . I feel that in the discussion on value of this particular boat we have a pretty accurate evaluation on the topic of selling buying and restoring one of these older rare classics.

Rocky
no one in bashing the boat it is a very unique rare boat that looks like it is in decent shape for its age from pics. What we are trying to do is get a picture of what its value is or will be. I have seen Urban Legend creep into the stories behind many older classics and in some way make their way into the selling price. For the purposes of this discussion and information for anyone who sees this in the future let's see if we can seperate fact for fiction

The motor myth : This may have had some truth way back when and we do know that older v drive donzi classics were cut up to get motors out but that has changed over the last 15 years. So the motors do have some value but the value of the boats as been realized and people hold onto and won't let the boats get cut up. That doesn't mean the motors are worthy 10s of thousands of dollars. The last 427 side oiler v drive n18 barrelback project had the 400 hp 2X4 carb setup it sold it sold with other new equipment it sold for less than 7k. So the motor has some unique value as does the v drive to a buyer who wants that. There are other 427 side oiler up there and as I said every Sept 40k car nutz are up there yet the 427s still sit there.

Sentimental value: to the seller this is great to the buyer it usually means jack ****. There may be some value to a buyer to know it is a one owner boat if it has been well cared for. A buyer may shell out more bucks if the boat has sentimental or other value to him. A boat his family use to own or a boat that was owned by someone famous or had a bigger part in history like an older race boat or a race boat that won a race. For the most part value is hardware not software.

The what do I get for my money factor: You mentioned your car I assume a buyer would be able to drive the car home no matter where he lived and not have to worry about much in the future maybe a wash wax oil change tune up. The buyer could do this if he was on the lake otherwise he needs to buy a means to get it home. Besides normal fluids and maint the buyer must consider the age and originality of the fuel system and it's integrity .

So each buyer must weigh the +s and -s the I may need this but not that thingy to finally see where the real value lies and if it meets their needs and budget.

The waiting til the right buyer comes along: this is where most older Classics die a slow painful death. If the boat is not stored with great care or used during this period it leads to issues. things dry,rust,seize UP. things get wet rot and this starts taking the boat further from its value


waiting for the markets to open Good Luck hope she finds a good home

[sarisracing]

There is a lot of talk about the value of a boat few have seen. I have no opinion as to the value and although I know both the first and second owners of the boat and have been involved in it's care since 1985 I am not selling it and will receive nothing when it is sold. What I can tell you is some of the reports on the condition of Pizzzaz are not at all accurate as the boat sits 75 feet away from me as I write this. The boat was refinished in the mid 80's, It was done with Imron and was done well. It is not full of dirt, runs and blisters as some have said. I will not speculate on why it has been misrepresented but I will assure you it is a clean nice job that has held up well for an almost 30 year old job. The are some scuffs and other imperfections as one would expect in a boat used for years since being refinished. It was not restored to "better than new" in the mid 80's and then left on a trailer to not be used as some boats are. Most of the newer Donzi's I see and work on are in poorer condition than this 46 year old boat. The 427 was rebuilt by Keith Hazell at Harbor One in Ft. Lauderdale when the boat was refinished. Keith worked at Holman and Moody back in the 60's and helped in the design of there marine engines. He went on to become a world champion offshore racer and engine builder. He did quality work. The hull is sound, running gear is sound, interior good. Unless you find a just restored example that someone has invested 50+ thousand into you will not find a cleaner, more complete, less abused "used" Hornet. What it's worth depends on if anyone wants a nice, clean old Donzi.

[BUIZILLA]

if resale sentimentality had any value, I would have been a millionaire 35 times over...

but it doesn't, so i'm not..

it's been a ton of fun though

[Scott Pearson]

Jason with all due respect. And I do mean that. I did look over Pzazz very well and the paint job has a lot of issues as I stated. I work with paint and do it for a living. I'm a painter by trade and am damn good at it... In fact I'm great at it.

Anyone who really is interested in Pzazz and understands paint will see these issues. I'm not bashing this boat. Only telling it like I see it.

I don't want the DONZI community to think that I'm lying about the paint condition. People who know me know I don't lie or suger coat things. My reputation is as important as yours. And that's important to me.

[RockyS18]

I'm not saying the sentimental value is worth anything for the buyer- the sentimental value is why the seller isn't going to just give it away.

[BUIZILLA]

I'm not saying the sentimental value is worth anything for the buyer- the sentimental value is why the seller isn't going to just give it away.

I can fully appreciate that.... and this topic has been a great source of worthwhile and educated opinions, in every direction of experience levels

with that said, what EXACTLY is the non-giveaway asking price?

[woobs]

When valuating any vehicle it's easy to get pulled off topic. There are many nuances, features and benefits of each unique item. You must cut through and get to a meaningful analysis free from all bias.

First, you have to ask : What is the value in the current market of a PERFECT vehicle that needs absolutely nothing. In this case the task is daunting enough because of the relative infrequency that one of these boats comes up for sale. But, If it was perfect, what is it worth?

Next you must assess condition and work backwards from the assumed utopian condition. In this case, we know that while in good shape, this boat is original and will need a fuel tank at the very minimum. Inspection of the rest of the boat should include every system, surface and structure. Now assign a cost to correct each observation to the utopian model.

The cost assigned will vary by buyer as a painter, for example, may be able to perform the paint restorations (if needed) at a fraction of retail. If the boat does not need paint this particular person has no advantage. A true market assessment should be performed at RETAIL values and not include potential savings of skilled individuals performing work at no/reduced charge.

Now add up the cost of all work to be performed and parts required. You may even add 10 - 15 % for a buffer due to the inability to find EVERYTHING in a cursory inspection. Subtract those costs from the utopian value and you have a true market value.

Now here's the real problem... with most boats, the true costs far outweigh the utopian value. So the trick is to balance how much you can afford to be upside down vs. your utopian estimate measured against the sellers willingness to part with the boat.

Everything else is just stories and fluff.

[Ghost]

I think that's a good analysis from Woobs. I think it covers a lot, though I would say there are some differing scenarios to stir in.

Some buyers are not shopping for a boat that's perfect or to make it perfect. To illustrate, consider that the money to make a 10 year old Honda Accord perfect is more than the price of a new one. But the value isn't zero or negative (as woobs's math would dictate), they have value for use as runners. They also have value if you part them out.

So, as a friendly amendment to Woobs' analysis, I'd add that the true retail market price is also dependent on what prospective buyers want out of it. Do they just want a runner? If so, and if there isn't market interest in perfect restoration, then the market will be driven by the runner buyer, not the restorer buyer. And as has been noted, with such small markets, price sensitivity to factors like these is only increased. The true retail value is a function of woobs's math mixed with other use cases, and the number of prospective buyers for each of those use cases, no?

For instance, if the 427 side oiler were worth 15 grand on its own, the price should never get below that. The restoration math might never enter into it at all.

Or maybe the next-to-last paragraph in your post covers more than I realize, and negates all the resto-math as an academic exercise anyway. I may have glossed over the implications.