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Thread: Bench Seat Hornet Values??? Thoughts?

  1. #31
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    you are the man Carl!!!
    FISH HARD

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fishermanjm View Post
    you are the man Carl!!!
    After seeing the resto threads on here. No way! I prefer to drive my boat.
    Lake St. Clair, Lake Huron, Lake Erie, Lake Oakland

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl C View Post
    After seeing the resto threads on here. No way! I prefer to drive my boat.

    ummm Carl hasn't your boat been restored twice??
    When the sky is grey,look out to sea.
    When the waves are high and the light is dying,
    well raise a glass and think of me...
    When I'm home again,
    boys, I'll be buying!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattyboy View Post
    ummm Carl hasn't your boat been restored twice??
    Ummm, no. I bought it brand new in '05 and it is garage kept. I did some mods and upgrades though!
    Lake St. Clair, Lake Huron, Lake Erie, Lake Oakland

  5. #35
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    so the stringers never had to be repaired???????? so the boat has had no glass work done to it so the bottom wouldn't fall out???? you may not have restored it but your boat is restored. Funny your 10 yr old boat has had more glass work done to it than the 45 yr old boat that we are talking about . yup bent it is
    When the sky is grey,look out to sea.
    When the waves are high and the light is dying,
    well raise a glass and think of me...
    When I'm home again,
    boys, I'll be buying!

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    Come Join Us on The Queen Of American Lakes



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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by woobs View Post
    I love the benchseats... I'd love to own one. But there's no way you could separate me from $40K to buy one as that amount (or less) buys so much more in the boating world. (a very nice local C22 ask $23,000 currently listed ready to hit the water). And that's just if you stay Donzi. An original Hornet needs a new fuel tank minimum... that ain't cheap due to the split and it's the start of the "while you're in there" song.

    The only scenario I see this type of boat going for that kind of scratch is if this was a documented fresh and complete restoration (That's what the Woody boys do) and as we know.... the seller would still be upside down (losing money).

    As to a value of a boat in this condition... I can't speak for others but, I don't think I'd be in over $15,000, probably closer to $10,000 (and that's generous for a prime project boat). Yes, it sounds harsh but I think that's the market.

    As far as the "40K, right buyer" coming along... I hope so for the seller, but It's unlikely imho.
    From my foxhole this is spot-on.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattyboy View Post
    so the stringers never had to be repaired???????? so the boat has had no glass work done to it so the bottom wouldn't fall out???? you may not have restored it but your boat is restored. Funny your 10 yr old boat has had more glass work done to it than the 45 yr old boat that we are talking about . yup bent it is
    Bottom fall out? If Carl's 22 represents the kind of restorations (and money spent) a lot of our old tubs needed than I'm really confused. I think he did a few structural hull improvements. No big deal for an 85mph runner.
    1972 16 OB - C16B-63 - "Surface Tension" Resto Project
    1974 16 OB - DMR16106017-B - "The Mule"

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattyboy View Post
    so the stringers never had to be repaired???????? so the boat has had no glass work done to it so the bottom wouldn't fall out???? you may not have restored it but your boat is restored. Funny your 10 yr old boat has had more glass work done to it than the 45 yr old boat that we are talking about . yup bent it is
    Hey, azzhole, my boat had minor gel cracking on the bottom. Donzi paid to have a factory engineered mini-stringer system installed in the engine room. This stopped the hull flexing and fixed the problem. The stringers were and are fine. The damage was cosmetic as it was caught very early due to a head's up on this site. The gel cracks were near invisible and the only way to see them was to crawl under the boat with a bright light. The small gel cracks did return soon and I took my boat to Capt'n Nabbers Shop for repair. It turned out that the "cracks" were filled with putty and the gel sprayed over that. Nabber's fixed them properly. That was in '09. No problems since and I run the boat in real off-shore conditions on the GREAT Lakes. I also further reinforced the engine room floor with four layers of stitchmat when I put in the 525. The only wood coring in my boat is in the floor, deck and engine hatch. The hull is solid glass. The transom is composite. I believe the stringers are also a composite material but not sure. My boat is solid as can be and, no, it has not been restored. Some minor repairs? Yes. Lots of upgrades? Yes. It is in mint condition and not for sale. I was referring to the many resto threads that I have seen drag on for years and quite a few abandoned after years of effort. Restoring a boat is not for me. Driving them is. So give it a break and stop bad mouthing my boat which I have $100,000 into and is much nicer than yours.

    Thanks, Greg.
    Lake St. Clair, Lake Huron, Lake Erie, Lake Oakland

  9. #39
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    To me what this thread illustrates about the value question is that the market is a small one. So small, one might have to test it to know. As even among all of us classic performance boat enthusiasts, the value of a boat like the one in question is very different.
    "I don't have time to get into it, but he went through a lot." -Pulp Fiction

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by woobs View Post
    I love the benchseats... I'd love to own one. But there's no way you could separate me from $40K to buy one as that amount (or less) buys so much more in the boating world. (a very nice local C22 ask $23,000 currently listed ready to hit the water). And that's just if you stay Donzi. An original Hornet needs a new fuel tank minimum... that ain't cheap due to the split and it's the start of the "while you're in there" song.

    The only scenario I see this type of boat going for that kind of scratch is if this was a documented fresh and complete restoration (That's what the Woody boys do) and as we know.... the seller would still be upside down (losing money).

    As to a value of a boat in this condition... I can't speak for others but, I don't think I'd be in over $15,000, probably closer to $10,000 (and that's generous for a prime project boat). Yes, it sounds harsh but I think that's the market.

    As far as the "40K, right buyer" coming along... I hope so for the seller, but It's unlikely imho.
    I think I have to agree w/this considering the amount of work involved.
    When I bought the TR in '07 for $11.5K, I also investigated a questionable F22 (see picture below). Talk about rare! Nine built, I think.
    But I think they're kind of ugly w/o a windshield (the only way they came). Anyway, the owner wanted about $4K too much, and the trailer was a mess too (steel, and it looked like a bridge truss), so I wished them well.
    When I started disassembling the TR, I discovered 22C's (including F22's, and Criterions) of a certain age have a LOT of inherent issues, which probably equals the complexity of BS Hornets if done correctly.
    So, here I am 7 years later, w/an additional $50K invested (no labor) and where do I go from here? Ya can't sell an incomplete project w/o giving it away (I tried). So, it's on to completion hoping someone wants a like (or in many cases, better than) new red 22C.
    The ugly truth is that 30-40 year old boats will need EVERYTHING! And the fact the finish is good, and the stringers are dry means NOTHING. Besides the new tank, stringer and bottom glass, cockpit floor glass, every piece of wire and switchgear has to be replaced. How many dollars and hours does that take?
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    George Carter
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    http://kineticocentralfl.com/


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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl C View Post
    Hey, azzhole, my boat had minor gel cracking on the bottom. Donzi paid to have a factory engineered mini-stringer system installed in the engine room. This stopped the hull flexing and fixed the problem. The stringers were and are fine. The damage was cosmetic as it was caught very early due to a head's up on this site. The gel cracks were near invisible and the only way to see them was to crawl under the boat with a bright light. The small gel cracks did return soon and I took my boat to Capt'n Nabbers Shop for repair. It turned out that the "cracks" were filled with putty and the gel sprayed over that. Nabber's fixed them properly. That was in '09. No problems since and I run the boat in real off-shore conditions on the GREAT Lakes. I also further reinforced the engine room floor with four layers of stitchmat when I put in the 525. The only wood coring in my boat is in the floor, deck and engine hatch. The hull is solid glass. The transom is composite. I believe the stringers are also a composite material but not sure. My boat is solid as can be and, no, it has not been restored. Some minor repairs? Yes. Lots of upgrades? Yes. It is in mint condition and not for sale. I was referring to the many resto threads that I have seen drag on for years and quite a few abandoned after years of effort. Restoring a boat is not for me. Driving them is. So give it a break and stop bad mouthing my boat which I have $100,000 into and is much nicer than yours.

    Thanks, Greg.
    Carl
    no need for vulgarity the discussion in this thread is about the value of a rare mostly original 45 yr old Donzi classic the opinion you stated is you would rather buy new than restore that's all fine and dandy. Please remember at the core of the site is the notion of keeping these old classics running that's where it started and then it took off from there into social media about all Donzi and other boats and the boating lifestyle. Many members have done full or part resto's from a fluff and buff to a keel up resto. I realize that saving and owning a true classic from the golden days is not everyones cup of tea some like newer boats and not wrenching or tweaking
    I am not bad mouthing your boat I am asking you to be honest about it. The production method was changed and it lead to this problem on yours any many many other boats. Donzi came out with a repair and they took care of it but I think this repair is not minor in my mind a minor repair is fixing dock rash a repair that is not done to the bottom that will get worse if not repaired or addressed is a bit more than minor you may feel differently .

    I stated that this 45 yr old boat had less glass work done than yours again no need for name calling.

    yes there are some restos that seem to go on forever but then there are some that get done in an timely fashion and the results are show stopping.
    Some of these restos are far better than whatever rolled out the doors at the Donzi factory during any era. look at some of the end products that Parnell or GCarter, and Pearson turn out. Nobody will admit it but Pearson's Pumpkin made such a splash at the owners event in Fla in the early 00's that it was the inspiration for the 40th anniv models. Keep in mind that without the mystique and cult following of these old classics your 2005 boat is never produced. well in the classic line that is in the bigger lines Steve Simon and the racing efforts put the ZR on the map. In the classic lines it always goes back to 188th st and Don and the 16 where it all started.

    I can only hope that someone with the drive and passion for these old classics gets a hold of PZAZZ and does it justice.

    very interested in where this all ends up
    When the sky is grey,look out to sea.
    When the waves are high and the light is dying,
    well raise a glass and think of me...
    When I'm home again,
    boys, I'll be buying!

    My Ride

    Come Join Us on The Queen Of American Lakes



    Contact Us

    www.lgdonziclassic.com

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    To me what this thread illustrates about the value question is that the market is a small one. So small, one might have to test it to know. As even among all of us classic performance boat enthusiasts, the value of a boat like the one in question is very different.
    very true but the supply end of the equation changes or has changed lately . It is a generational thing this boat was not for sale nor would be for sale for any amount 10 yrs ago. one or two seem to change hands every 5 yrs or so but back in the late 90s and early 00s they were hard to find. As the original owners aged their boats came up for sale . lately a few boats in all parts of disrepair and incomplete have changed hands all projects needing a ton of work the range has been from 3k on the low end to 12k on the high end. All of these were non running boats this is an original complete boat that with a tune up will run if it hasn't been tuned up by now. The last one that sold like this was mine in 09 a tune up and a bit of wiring to get running.

    So buyer looking for one has to think when will I get the chance again? and that is different for a 16 an 18 or an x18 buyer. yeah we are in pretty uncharted waters
    When the sky is grey,look out to sea.
    When the waves are high and the light is dying,
    well raise a glass and think of me...
    When I'm home again,
    boys, I'll be buying!

    My Ride

    Come Join Us on The Queen Of American Lakes



    Contact Us

    www.lgdonziclassic.com

  13. #43
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    Agreed, Matty. I also wonder about the original vs. restored thing, especially when compared to cars. My bias is definitely toward restored, in that I can APPRECIATE a boat being original, but FOR ME that doesn't have a lot of inherent value. (And I can totally understand someone having the exact opposite view.) But my guess is most folks (meaning, potential buyers) just want a boat to be functional and nice, regardless of whether that's a result of being a pristine original or a restored boat. Just another factor in the smallness of the true market, I suppose.

    George, your post set me to thinking a little. I have a slightly different thought on whether it matters if the glass and stringers are good. My experience is that glasswork takes a ton of labor relative to re-rigging. Where re-rigging costs a fortune in parts compared to glasswork. Both are expensive if you pay to have them done, but for different reasons. If doing all the work oneself, the checkbook pain is much more on the re-rigging side. Where with my own boats (not doing the work myself), the pain is far more on the glasswork side.
    "I don't have time to get into it, but he went through a lot." -Pulp Fiction

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    George, your post set me to thinking a little. I have a slightly different thought on whether it matters if the glass and stringers are good. My experience is that glasswork takes a ton of labor relative to re-rigging. Where re-rigging costs a fortune in parts compared to glasswork. Both are expensive if you pay to have them done, but for different reasons. If doing all the work oneself, the checkbook pain is much more on the re-rigging side. Where with my own boats (not doing the work myself), the pain is far more on the glasswork side.
    Just to keep this on subject (BS Hornets), I've not inspected an unrestored boat, other than seeing pictures of acres of rotted, water saturated balsa coring. I've not had the opportunity to inspect the bottom stringer/inner hull joints, or cut open underneath the inner side of said joint to see if Donzi scarfed the stringer wood bottom to match up to the inner hull, or do they need to be cut open and filled? Do the cockpit floors crack at the bench seat bottom? Do the forward ends of the cockpit floor crack at the juncture w/the cockpit side?
    These are important questions concerning the structural integrity of the boat. If the boat fails these tests, then they really need attention at a glass shop that the buyer will pay for in addition to funding the re-rigging.
    I guess I'm pretty jaded at this point. It seems a lot of folks need to take some saltpeter (to reduce the desire) and sleep on it for a few weeks or months and make sure they have adequate funds, or skills AND funds, to undertake old performance boat ownership and maintenance.
    George Carter
    Central Florida
    gcarter763@aol.com
    http://kineticocentralfl.com/


    “If you have to argue your science by using fraud, your science is not valid"
    Professor Ian Plimer, Adilaide and Melbourne Universities

  15. #45
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    the seats are usually the first area to go a large span unsupported with saging and cracking and the deck would also sag

    my stringers were solid but as Scott said with the BB v drive boats they notched the stringers and never sealed them like the x18

    the coring on the early boats was not done to today's standards

    I'll take a look at those areas George she does show some wrinkles at her age and the deck has some cosmetic gel cracking but is solid when my 250lbs walks across it
    When the sky is grey,look out to sea.
    When the waves are high and the light is dying,
    well raise a glass and think of me...
    When I'm home again,
    boys, I'll be buying!

    My Ride

    Come Join Us on The Queen Of American Lakes



    Contact Us

    www.lgdonziclassic.com

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