Definition of "safely"

[Ed Donnelly]

I was young and foolish when I built the 16 up,and in my 30's.
The water conditions had to be perfect and no boats within a mile.
You could not drive in a straight line as the chine walk over 80 made it uncontrollable.
Always a slight left turn at speed. That was a big reason why I put the pad and step in.
Even then it still needed the slight left turn.
I drove it over 80 hundreds of times but over 100 a handfull.
When I sold it I had already pulled the engine and drive as I WOULD NOT SELL IT
with that engine didn't need the worries of someone getting hurt or killed in it.
(I sold my E type Jag with a D type full race engine in it and the kid who bought it lost control and killed himself in it 2 months later)

I was in my 50's when I put the Gale Banks twin turbo in the Criterion.
No external steering or K-Planes. Over 80 it was very twitchy. Took it over 100 less
than a dozen times. It just scared the hell out of me. Pulled the Gale Banks out THEN
installed the K-Planes and dual hydraulic steering, and installed the supercharged much lower horsepower engine in. When I hit 60 yrs old I lost interest in going fast in boats.

Prefer 4 wheels on my go fast toys now...Finished ranting....Ed

[Just Say N20]

All this, and we are just starting FALL?!?!?

Could be a LLLLLLLLOOOOOOONNNNNGGGGGG non-boating season. . . .

[Greg Guimond]

I was young and foolish when I built the 16 up and in my 30's. The water conditions had to be perfect and no boats within a mile. You could not drive in a straight line as the chine walk over 80 made it uncontrollable. Always a slight left turn at speed. That was a big reason why I put the pad and step in. Even then it still needed the slight left turn. ....Ed

Interesting Ed that your 16 had a slight side pull both before and after you installed the pad bottom.

[Pismo]

Its awesome and he wants to do it so who is anyone to say if it is safe or not. It is up to him.

[mike o]

It's funny, I dont worry about my front tire on the Buell @ 80, ever. But over 110 the thought creeps into my head . Same on the sled, @ 80 in the woods, trees whizzing by, it's nothing all day. But, over 100 its the deer jumping up of the woods or a bolt holding a ski on, maybe made in China......

Both machines box stock are designed for it, as is Mike's airplane scenario. I launched my 18 in some slop @ LG a couple of yr's ago @70 having fun with a Baja outlaw. I put a little biker skull decal over the key to remind me of that Chit . Most really fast classic's are work in progress, moving up the speeds on timely, incremental, modifications. It was interesting to read that Steve's 18 with 600 hp drives through the dance @ 70, where my hull gets spooky. The intense mental rush of "wondering" what's next in the moment, @ what ever speed on -in anything fast, is why folks go there. The Holy F........ Is it safe, nope. Can it be done safely, maybe to some degree. Is it Risky, Oh Ya , Tis fun.......... I never want to read of anybody getting hurt. Be "safe" , out there, people.......

[pipnit]

How many people here have their boat properly insured?

[mattyboy]

If God wanted man to fly he would have given wings, if he wanted him to swim he would have given web hands and feet.

my point

outside of your normal natural environment is a risky deal no matter what you are doing rock climbing, hanging iron 100 stories in the air, driving anything that goes above 1 mph.

There are certain risks we take everyday from getting in the car for the morning commute to enjoying that bacon egg and cheese on an everything bagel with a large lite and sweet coffee while talking on the cell on that commute. How soon we forget Mr Schoonmaker's lectures in drivers Ed 10 and 2 , safe following distances expect the unexpected.

so it goes for our hobby, powerboating the act of going fast on water is an unnatural act. Everything requires more attention to detail from fueling to maint, to running the boat at speed. can a 40+ year old design be made to run fast yes can it be done like getting into the car for that morning commute NO. For the most part the people I have been with and seen that push that outer limit of the envelope take that very seriously and have taken the time and effort and well as the precautions to minimize the risks. The biggest risk is complacency . We as a group always talk about these boats being drivers boats and that they will eventually give you that " holy **** it never did that before" and scare the crap out of you . When we think they are routine that's when we get into trouble.

To be honest It has happened to me looking back when Marie and I would go out on the 16 we would never run at 40 or 45 without vests on . now with the hornet running 40 or 45 and the more secure feeling of being higher off the water and more in the boat than on the boat the vest are at our feet. Think we'll have our inflatables on from now on.

Safe is an illusion

[gcarter]

Talking about comparing aggressive boating to commercial flying is really a non starter.
Fifteen years ago, you could fly everyday for 21,000 years and not be in an accident. It has become safer since then.
In fact it's probably safer to fly than stay at home.
Maybe a comparison to other activities.........like walking down particular streets after dark! That activity "could" go w/o incident, or it might not!

[olredalert]

----Most of the people that I know and admire for entering this upper zone of speed are very analytical, not only about the top speed but the precautions that let them do it more than once. For instance, I have watched Todd in his 22 and over the years as his speed has creeped upward and he has spent as much thought on taking out gremlins as he has adding horsies! I only saw Geoo run one weekend, but was impressed that he wouldnt run the big numbers unless he felt his boat and conditions were just right. It probably comes down to simply not being foolhardy. My speedy days are over, the same as Eds. Now I appreciate the cruise as much if not more than I ever did the speed. With that said, I do love to see guys posting these big numbers and taking the precautions that let them come back to the dock every time. Not all the members here are as prudent as they should be and Im sometimes surprised (happily) that we dont hear a few more horror stories........Bill S

[gcarter]

Of course personal perception plays a huge part in this discussion. For instance Jimmy Johnson runs his Chevy race car looser than anyone else in NASCAR. Apparently he likes it like that and he has the reaction time to benefit from the faster response times of the car setup. Modern fighter jets are dynamically unstable and depend on computers to maintain straight and level flight. What the instability contributes is they will rotate at over 100* per second!
Obviously, it takes special people to accomplish these things. I also think personal abilities play a huge part in choices to push the envelope. Like the guy in the Florida panhandle that wake jumped himself to death at 85 MPH or so, folks need to be realistic about their own abilities to accomplish things. If I wanted to go 100 MPH in a 22C, I think I would become Tres Martins best customer! At least he could teach you what to expect and what to do, and if your couldn't cut it, he could discourage you from trying.
Back to my commercial flying statistic above, in spite of the reality of flying safety, there are lots of folks who won't fly.
I'd rather fly than drive there, but I have no desire to go much more than 70 MPH in a boat.

[Ed Donnelly]

I would like to add one more statement
Most if not all of the high speed Donzis were done over a period of several months if not years. My 16 was a 10 year project, and the Criterion was 3..Ed

[MOP]

No matter how much seat time there can be a bump in the road as Ken (Minx Guy) found out a few years back, beautiful day great water conditions then an unnoticed bump came along. He landed in the water was knocked unconscious, thankfully he made out Ok!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just think about how many times you have encountered a sneaky wake, add that to the higher speeds you are thinking about, are you and any possible passengers sharp enough to survive????

[Carl C]

I cannot believe that this thread still has life. All over my decision to use the word safe in a sentence. This will be my final post in this thread because I have tried to debate things with Mike in the past and he will just dismiss any arguments with lists of counter arguments until you throw your hands up and say "no mas". Is there one single person here who is not aware of the fact that high performance boating has inherent risks? Just as other motorsports such as off road biking and quading and snowmobiling? I will defend my use of the word in context in the fact that Bjorn did indeed post a video of a SAFE run up to 100.7 mph (and he got there fast!) and back and that said video indicated no ill handling manners. My sentence also said "with an experienced driver and proper set-up". Conditions which appear to have been met. All of this over lack of a better word. Carry on, Mike. I am done with this silly and useless thread. I run low to mid 80s and my boat is dialed in. It is amazing what it can do even in 3-4 foot slop. It takes 6-8 footers to slow me down to idle speed. Does that mean that it is "safe". I don't know but I do know that I have deemed the risk to be reasonable and that the fun factor exceeds the risk factor. Bjorn, carry on. I believe that you can exceed Ted's run with a bit of tweaking and in right conditions.

[Ghost]

I cannot believe that this thread still has life. All over my decision to use the word safe in a sentence.

LOL. (As I picture Gavrilo Princip standing in the moonscape of 1919 France, saying "you guys did all this for ME?!")

I will defend my use of the word in context in the fact that Bjorn did indeed post a video of a SAFE run up to 100.7 mph (and he got there fast!) and back and that said video indicated no ill handling manners.

LOL, you're on a roll. One could likewise deem Russian Roulette "safe" after watching a video where someone pulled the trigger once and only heard a click instead of having his head blown off. Picturing the OSHA trainee looking on and saying "yeah, I guess we're good" as he marks on his clipboard.

What the video proves is merely that what is seen in the video took place. Your extrapolation to proof of something being "safe" is absurd. But that's nothing new in this world--probability and statistics are widely misunderstood.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sample_size_determination

And again, this is not to say anyone is acting in an "unsafe" manner, or being reckless, or anything of the sort. (It would be silly, given how I am arguing the functional meaningless of either term in this context.) I think this (and other) projects great. And VERY cool.

My point has nothing to do with the project. Rather, it is that the unqualified label "safe" makes no sense. Triple-digit speed in a Donzi Classic is very cool. And fun, for those who consider its very real and omnipresent fatal risks of such speeds to be acceptable to themselves. But saying such speeds can be "run safely" in these boats is ridiculous. And saying a small sample "proves" anything is absurd on its face.

[Morgan's Cloud]

From my POV Carl the mistake you made was NOT defining your 'safe' statement from the get go. As I said earlier anyone can strap massive HP to anything that wasn't designed for it and still make it go fast . But will it go fast safely ?

Let's face it , America is the land of the litigation conscious and there's a lot of people out there who know SFA about a boat , hell , a lot of them can barely operate a car safely , ride a motor bike or even row a dinghy but they have the where with all to buy whatever they want. And the cash to make it faster.

We all know the stories about guys who one day stumble across a Donzi , get stars in their eyes and all caught up in the 'mystique' and then must have one.
When they read unqualified statements like ' proof that these boats can be safely driven at 100+mph speeds' it's a recipe for disaster.

That's all I'm saying. Concern for the uninitiated.