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  1. #1
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    Definition of "safely"

    It was recently commented that a member's boat, running a bit north of 100 mph, was "more proof" that our classic hulls "can be run safely at these speeds." This comment didn't sit well with me and strikes me as worth further contemplation.

    Caveats: Two thoughts come to mind, but before they do, a couple of caveats. Please, let no one misinterpret my comments as claiming anyone's boat is "unsafe" or that anyone here is being reckless, or the like. I'm saying nothing of the sort. Further, the particular boat in question that inspired the comment above is, in my view, freakin' awesome. I dig it. Looks like a great job. I have ZERO complaints about it, quite the reverse. I'm very much a fan.

    But with that, on to the point. Consider the notion that the existence of any 100+ mph boat (and any information we've gotten or COULD get about it) is "more proof" that our classic hulls can be "run safely at these speeds." Leaping into my head are two things:
    1. a quote from Steven Wright "I intend to live forever. So far, so good." (On the subject of "proof" and how silly it is in this context.)
    2. a quote from Yahoo Answers where some idiot had asked "Is it dangerous to drink while taking [some drug, maybe Vicodin]." Whatever it was, the drug is always ABSOLUTELY PLASTERED with warnings about not taking it while drinking any amount of alcohol, not even a drop. And the asker acknowledged this. Someone, God bless him, just responded to the bonehead with "what is 'danger' anyway?" Freaking hilarious, as well as genius. Because that really IS the point, after all. There is no "safe" in a Donzi Classic at near triple-digit speeds. It's only a matter of how risky it is. Safe is right out. There are FATAL risks in any Donzi Classic up near 100 mph. It just becomes a matter of making good choices to minimize those risks--they never go away and the unqualified label "safely" is absurdly meaningless in the discussion. Any meaningful discussion will be drilling into the many choices and corresponding risks in an attempt to qualify them.


    What's the old saying? "The wise don't need it and the fool won't heed it."
    "I don't have time to get into it, but he went through a lot." -Pulp Fiction

  2. #2
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    There isn't anything safe about it .If it were, it wouldn't be that impressive.

    Safety is also subjective to the conditions. Some call speed reckless others call it thrilling. never is it called safe The way I took what he said is the boat can operate safely at that speed ,Not necessarily it is safe to operate at that speed .
    machinist ,bore it deeper,ream it bigger, and lap it to a fine finish



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  3. #3
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    Agreed, and that's kinda what I was getting at. The real answer is not 'safely' or 'unsafely', it's a serious and somewhat complicated discussion of choices and risks and attempts to qualify/quantify them. Baking in gear, experience, conditions, etc. And a great deal of subjective, as well as objective, probability. The short label can't have much (if any) meaning.
    "I don't have time to get into it, but he went through a lot." -Pulp Fiction

  4. #4
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    I agree, it's not safe. While the boat in question handles better at speed than probably any other 22C (but what would I know about that?), "safely" is a entirely subjective term.
    Deep Vee hulls were developed in the '50's to go 65 MPH, and it took until the mid '70's before any consistently went 85 MPH. So you can put 750 HP in a Vee hull and go 100 MPH consistently, it's certainly not the easiest way, or cheapest way to do it.
    I'm a little older than many here, I'll admit my desire to live a few more years probably influences my opinion.
    George Carter
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    “If you have to argue your science by using fraud, your science is not valid"
    Professor Ian Plimer, Adilaide and Melbourne Universities

  5. #5
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    Agreed, and I should clarify something too, I think. The problem I have is with putting a simplistic label on something inherently complex (not to mention subjective). "Can be run safely" is falsely treating a spectrum like a dichotomy (safely vs. unsafely), and exacerbating that mistake with blindness to subjective notions of both probability (what the risk/consequence numbers are) and also with danger (what people are comfortable with). It's a useless, if not deceptive, generalization.
    "I don't have time to get into it, but he went through a lot." -Pulp Fiction

  6. #6
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    Ghost , as the youngsters nowadays say , 'I'll give you *props* for having the courage to bring this up'.
    So far I agree with the wisdom and tact that everyone has responded with , including your original post.

    Like all the classics, and most every V bottomed boat that Don had a finger in designing , they are destined to become absolute classics that will stand the test of time and still be held as beautiful in 100 years as they are now .
    BUT , they have their limits. These boats were not designed to run 'safely' over , say , 65 mph. Sure , put 1000hp in anything and it will 'go fast' , but it's safety depends entirely on the conditions that day and the skill of the driver to keep it on the water (most likely in a straight line only) .

    A few years ago I went for a ride in a Skater 24 that the owner was running in two new 300 Mercs. We went up to 93mph and I did not feel safe. Why ? Not because the hull wasn't designed for it but because I questioned the ability and experience of the driver. He was a surgeon , so if anything untowards happened at least he'd be able to patch me back up if need be

    As ridiculous as it may sound I'm still adjusting to the new performance of my St T and anything over 50 to me now feels unsafe. I definitely would not give it to anyone to drive unless they had many decades of experience in a wide variety of boats under their belt.

    As for going 100+ in a C22 . No way in hell ! I know the incremental differences one feels in a boat between 30 and 45 mph. Then 50 to 60 mph , etc.
    The fastest I'd probably really want to go in a C22 is upper 60's , if that. Things happen very quickly and can go wrong equally fast at those speeds and the larger the boat the greater mass is going to take longer to slow down to a manoeuvrable speed.

    The other issue that comes to mind is that very few people run their boats as waterborne missiles all the time. A boat that wasn't originally designed (or built) to run at these incredible speeds probably completely looses it's ability to cruise in a civilized manner at 'normal speeds' and does all sorts of things that only encourage the driver to get it out of that zone.

    All that aside , fysis has done an amazing job and has gonads a lot larger than mine !
    Just because something's old doesn't mean you throw it away !

  7. #7
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    Mike, why don't you just tell Bjorn directly that what he is doing is not "safe". Or better yet take this entire hypocritical argument to .org where this is what you had to say in response to Bjorn's running over 100 mph in his 22 Donzi Classic: "Love it!! Awesome, great work!! -Mike". I happen to think that what he is doing is pretty darn cool.
    Lake St. Clair, Lake Huron, Lake Erie, Lake Oakland

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