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Thread: More ponies for the family boat

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    Just wanted to make sure I had this right...when you get to 51 at 4400rpm, you can add throttle and drive the rpm up to 4900, but speed doesn't change? You're just slipping/ventilating more and more as the revs climb? If that's true, and if your max power is up at about 4800 or 5000, I'd expect you MIGHT make another mph (maybe as much as two) by getting the revs up with less pitch. If there's a right prop to do it I mean. You're not getting full power down at 4400. Question is what wheel would hold its bite with your hull past 51 at your level of trim, and is there one below 19" pitch that would spin 52-53 at 4800-5k rpm. Hmmm...

    (One aside: I assume you're running the test with a light load of people/fuel/gear, such that you should be topping out your rpm under the loading conditions. But if not, that's worth doing in seeking the right prop. I figure you're already on that one.)
    Yup, pretty frustrating. I would like to find something that will allow me to run 4800-5000 WOT light and still be hooked up even with some positive trim. The B1 was amazing right up until I ran out of steam at 4100 - great midrange and enough traction to really carry bow. Handling was exceptional, no blowouts on sharp turns. It was just too much prop for my combo. Four blades at 15.25 diameter is a ton of prop.

    The Vengeance is advertised as the budget Quicksilver prop - it is definitely not ideal for any kind of performance, particularly in the aerated water coming off the step.

    Gotta find the middle ground!
    Last edited by duckhunter; 06-18-2013 at 09:41 AM. Reason: clarification
    "Speed's fine, but accuracy is final."
    - Bill Jordan

    1998 Donzi 21LXR
    1971 Boston Whaler 13

  2. #62
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    On the stupid side, I've seen Cobalts in your size range running 502Mags and even a 500HP at Lake Cumberland. The 500 boat is a sleeper.

    Back to reality. You said you need a little more nose than the three blade Vengance. And a lot less diameter than the Bravo One 22.
    To carry the nose, you are looking for more cup. The Mirage+ 21 would be a nice try. It is also below 15 inches in diameter, so it is a lot
    less blade than the Bravo One. The Prescision TXP would be another nice one to try. The TXP has even more cup.

    BBlades should have both for testing purposes. Get her tuned for the Gorge Run!

  3. #63
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    in Grizz's leftover props I may have what you are looking for >

    14.25 x 21 x 3 T1 - Merc hub
    14.25 x 21 x 3 T1 - Flo Torq hub
    14.5 x 19 x 4 OS1 - T lock
    13.25 x 20 x 4 2+2X T1 - Merc hub

    14.5 x 21 M+ my personal stash, works great on my stepped Z23

    the 3 props I lent to Ghost are too much blade for your setup...
    Charter Member - WAFNC, SBBR, KWOSG
    1955 Perfect Mate
    1986 Hornet III, 502-415 TRS

    www.donzi.org


  4. #64
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    again i would try a 21 turbo. they seem to bite a bit better than a mirage+. i thinking with the stepped bottom its a good thing.
    Last edited by Donzi_Dude; 06-23-2013 at 07:41 PM.

  5. #65
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    Guys, I really appreciate the feedback. Did some testing with the local prop shop (Leon at Knight's Propellers - standup guy) over the weekend, he was a little mystified too. Boat didn't like the regular T1 at all - really strange vibrations and a ton of bow rise.

    We're ordering a pair of 13.25dia 4 blade T2+2 OT in 19 and 20P to try out. The boat really liked the B1 other than the lack of rpm - great handling from hole shot to cruise and good bite for carrying the bow. Hoping that the significantly smaller diameter Turbo will gain some revs and the four blades will still allow a lot of positive trim. These props were designed for the heavy early 90s bass boats with smaller V6 weed whackers.

    So at the end of the day it's not looking like I will be hitting 60, but the boat is running great and if I can find the prop that will work well for pulling tubes and a 40mph cruise I will be happy. Maybe I'll throw a jackplate and a 70 on the Whaler if I still have a need for speed...

    Look for a 22P Bravo 1 to pop up in the classifieds at some point.
    "Speed's fine, but accuracy is final."
    - Bill Jordan

    1998 Donzi 21LXR
    1971 Boston Whaler 13

  6. #66
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    interesting. a vibration usually means a square wheel.turbos are all about bow lift so i can understand the bow being too high because it seems like it may be an issue with your original prop. i think a mirage has a little less bow lift than a turbo.


    smaller dia. seems like a move in the wrong direction with the venting(reason the B1 is working so well) but you never know unless you try. i guess if the top speed, attitude and holeshot are good with the B1 why care about the rpm's?


  7. #67
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    EXECUTIVE SUMMARY: I have trouble imagining any prop above 19 pitch is likely to be right.

    EXPLANATION: First, I went back and looked closely at the math. Something that felt odd before really seems odd now.

    The numbers on the 22p 4-blade Bravo 1 make sense to me. Tops out at 4100 rpm, 52 mph, giving a slip of 10.5%. So far, so good.

    But to hit 51 mph at 4400 with the 19, you'd be just a hair above 5% slip. That seems awfully low, especially for a 3-blade prop. I'd expect a more slip from the 3-blade than the 4-blade, and 5% seems quite low for either. (Though I suppose maybe stepped hulls run with less slip than I'm used to. Even so, the gulf between the 10.5% and 5% numbers is the real question mark, not the absolute number.)

    Doing some sensitivity analysis (after all, prop pitches are given to the nearest integer but in reality, there are probably unseen fractions in the true pitch measures), if I stretch the 22 pitch down to 21.5, and stretch the 19 pitch up to 19.5, the slip measures go to:
    21.5p, 4100, 52mph, 8.5% slip
    19.5p, 4400, 51mph, 7.75% slip

    So, somewhere in the vagaries of measurement and perhaps the vagaries of pitch specs, maybe the 5% slip number that seems so odd is just a product of approximations in measurement. And/or, maybe the 10.5% number was high, such that the discrepancy between the two actually wasn't as big as the measurements made it appear.

    But anyway, setting all that aside...in the big picture, the most telling thing to me is that you've hit 52 mph (pretty close to your expected top end) waaaaay down at 4100 rpm using that 22 pitch 4-blade. Suggesting that 22 pitch is a good bit too much. Not sure what RPM you want for your WOT, but I'm assuming 4800-5000. If that's the case, I'd be looking for a 19 pitch (or possibly 18 pitch) 4-blade. Maybe a Merc Revolution 4 in 19 pitch? Or a Turbo 2+2 TH in 18 pitch? (I don't know those props at all, just skimmed through the offerings for 4-blades for stern-drives that are made in 19 or 18 pitch. A 19-pitch Bravo-1 4-blade would be the obvious choice but they don't make less than 22 pitch.)

    I'm thinking your best speed will end up being 53-54. If so, with a 19 pitch, assuming a WOT slip range between 7 and 10.5 percent, that would put your max rpm between 4650 (53 mph, 7% slip) on the low end and 4925 (54 mph, 10.5% slip) on the high end. I'm guessing the real slip will be higher than 7, and thus that you'd actually be wide open somewhere from 4800 to 4925 if the prop stays hooked up.

    The real point of which is that no matter how I do the math, I have trouble imagining any prop above 19 pitch is likely to be right. And it's possible that 19 could still be too much if you're headed the way of 4-blades and less slip. Sorry all of that went on so long, but I didn't want to give a naked conclusion with no way to evaluate it.

    EDIT: With a little more thorough re-read (smacks head), I see you're kinda going this way already. The only difference is I wouldn't be ordering a 20 to try, just a 19 and possibly an 18. Eager to hear how it goes. Hoping the magic is that 4-blades won't blow out, and you can squeeze the last few HP into mph by getting the revs up.
    Last edited by Ghost; 06-24-2013 at 06:16 AM. Reason: original post just wasn't long enough
    "I don't have time to get into it, but he went through a lot." -Pulp Fiction

  8. #68
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    Duckie.... did you even read my post?
    Charter Member - WAFNC, SBBR, KWOSG
    1955 Perfect Mate
    1986 Hornet III, 502-415 TRS

    www.donzi.org


  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by BUIZILLA View Post
    Duckie.... did you even read my post?
    I did, and I appreciate it. I am pretty well locked-in to buying something from my current prop guy. He spent most of Saturday afternoon bombing around Lake Guntersville with me and swapping props. Young guy with a start-up company working on props to augment pro bass fishing and some guiding.

    That said, I'm always up for some add'l test and evaluation and would definitely give other props a shot at the Gorge Run in Jul. Thanks again!
    "Speed's fine, but accuracy is final."
    - Bill Jordan

    1998 Donzi 21LXR
    1971 Boston Whaler 13

  10. #70
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    Turbo Fusion 4 Series

    "This aggressive series of propellers is not for everyone. These props with their high rake and progressive pitch design are ready for boats with stepped hulls"

    available in 14.25x21

    i have never used one of these but it looks like a spinneli chopper.



  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donzi_Dude View Post
    Turbo Fusion 4 Series

    "This aggressive series of propellers is not for everyone. These props with their high rake and progressive pitch design are ready for boats with stepped hulls"

    available in 14.25x21

    i have never used one of these but it looks like a spinneli chopper.


    I tried a fusion 4 on my 24' Superboat and it ran pretty good. The Merc Rev 4 ran better and seems to be the ticket on my 22C also. The Merc Rev 4 is a smaller dia than a B1 and has more rake for bow lift. 21p Rev 4 would be my recommendation...
    Thank you, Patrick
    1994 18' Classic 350Mag Alpha

    Previously owned Donzis -
    1996 22' Classic, 502Mag Bravo
    1987 20' Minx, 350Mag Alpha
    1975 18' Classic, 350Chevy Volvo 280

  12. #72
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    "The Merc Rev 4"

    if i had to guess that is the prop the boat came from the factory with.

  13. #73
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    I'm interested in trying a Rev4 at some point as well, from what I've read it would do what I'm looking for. Gonna try the 2+2 first and see what happens. Smallest pitch avail is 20 (no 19 like I thought) so if it won't hit the WOT band I'll need to try something else.

    So I've pretty well got it narrowed down to some flavor of four blade, which is what I have suspected and why I hoped the B1 might be the ticket. Just gotta find the right combo of diameter, pitch, rake, cup, and all the other parameters that make prop selection such a black art.

    It was nice having someone on the boat to help keep track of things. On the last test with the T1 (three blade, still kind of an "all around" budget prop like the Vengeance with a little more blade area) he noticed that the water was coming off the hull way farther back than it does with the Vengeance; probably 18" to 2', or back around the rear bench. It just had a bit of a hard time holding it there without slipping a little.

    Ghost - thanks for putting in the time to write all of that up! I'm with you that maybe a smaller dia 4B 20P or less is probably where I end up.

    The motor feels really strong - definitely a noticeable improvement over stock. If anyone is interested, please run through the diagnostics I went through and see if there is anything I missed. Without going into the motor more than I'm willing to at this point in the season (ie checking valve springs, etc) I think I've been pretty thorough. I might try to step the jetting up on the secondaries a size or two, but I don't think carb tuning would account for the low rpms. If I took the hatch off I could maybe find someone to ride along and try to check fuel pressure and timing while running, but that's kind of sketchy and all of the driveway testing was spot on. Really just looking for confirmation that this is a prop issue and I'm not missing something stupid...

    Again, I appreciate everyone's input and advice. Cold beers in the cooler at Chatt, or you are welcome to fight the chicks for some of their rum panty droppers (made fresh daily!).
    "Speed's fine, but accuracy is final."
    - Bill Jordan

    1998 Donzi 21LXR
    1971 Boston Whaler 13

  14. #74
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