Reviving a HM 289....

[300EVIL]

Hey Guys!
Well, I have the boat... whatever it is.... home now and have begun to do research on the engine. To make a long story short.... My uncle sold me the boat for $1 and it's been sitting for the last 3 years since it's been ran. My plan is to...

A. Get it started and running.

B. UPGRADE!!!



The engine is a Holman & Moody SBF 289. Engine number: B8HM-2119-1-RW I/O, CPM-200-2V-86HM-MB1 However, it's not the stock H&M 289. From my research, these are the upgrades I have found...

1. 715CFM Holley Carburetor.
S2MS-9510-A
LIST-3259-1
751
Manufactured: 1st Week, May 1967
(Supposedly from a GT350)

2. Edelbrock F4B (Cobra Manifold?)

3. Different Cam.... I have no clue what except that it's solid lifter.

4. Solid Lifters

5. Stiffer Valve Springs.... Again, no clue how stiff.

6. Upgraded spring retainers... Stronger?

So, my first plan is to get it running. The engine was winterized before it was put away and has fresh oil. It still has a 1/4 tank of gas which I'm gonna dump. My plan is to fog the cylinders with WD40 and crank it over a few times by hand, replace the plugs, get some water flow on the intake and attempt to start. Once it's running, It's getting a major degreaser bath.

From there I'm gonna replace all the ****ty old hoses and seals including manifold, and valve cover gaskets. Fuel filter, after I fix the leaky tank, and anything else I deem to be "BAD".

After that, I want to install an MSD 6A ignition I just bought. Distributor, coil, MSD box, the works... Sorry I don't like dealing points or vacuum tubes.

Next... I'm thinking of selling the 715CFM carb on eBay. Supposedly all the vintage rodders have a real hard on for this carb and I can get some major bucks for a new marine rated Holley carb. I wanted to rebuild it but it seems like I can get something better and newer...

Please check out my plan and see if what I'm thinking seems sane.
Thanks!
Adam

[silverghost]

Adam~~~
I am not a Holman~Moody expert by any means~~~

BUT~~~
I believe from your H/M Data tag shows that your boat's original engine~~~
CPM-200-2V was only a 200 horsepower 2 barrel carburetor low compression base model unit !
It was not uncommon for any of these H/M engines to have solid lifters & and a special grind marine cam.
That's the way Ford supplied them to Hollman~Moody for their marine use.
Not ALL H/M engines were high performance units~~~
Most in fact were just basic low-end engines !

According to the H/M data tag this was the lowest base horsepower 289 engine ever supplied by H/M !
Th 200-2V carb stamped on the H/M data plate is a big tip-off of this fact.

With that said~~~
Was the boat's original engine later swapped for another junkyard engine unit out of another Ford auto ?
OR~~~~
Was just the intake manifold & carb only swapped at some later date in an ill-fated attempt to get more speed & power out of the original base low-end 200 horsepower /2 barrel carb low compression H/M 289 ?
This engine would only be one step-up from the base 6 cylinder 200 Cu.In. Ford engine used in your grandmother's mustang as an example !
It is NOT and never was a high-performance engine !

Does your Uncle have any answers to these questions ?
Did HE ever swap the complete original engine ?
OR~~~
Did he later slap that 4 barrel 715 CFM carb and intake manifold on the original low power base model engine from an unrelated junkyard auto ?

Might I suggest that you First get it up & running and take the boat out for a ride before you start pulling carbs + intakes & the old ignition distributor .
I would also delay installing that new MSD ignition system until after this first test ride !

If it is still that low original 200 horsepower base H/M 289 engine & cylinder heads It will take much more than a new electronic Ignition system & a new marine carb to get much more power out of this basic base model low performance/low compression Hollman~Moody 200 horsepower 289 !

That 715 CFM carb also sounds very big for a low horsepower, low compression basic 289 CuI.In. engine installation !

I have seen people with very low horsepower car & boat engines go to the junkyard and buy an auto intake manifold and big 4 barrel carb and later slap it on a low power boat enigne expecting it to come alive with a great hosepower increase~~~

Sadly it just doesn't work that way !
It's not THAT easy !

The horsepower increase by doing this carb & manifold swap would be very small ~~~If any increase at all !

Points are OK~~~
There are & were NO Vacuum Tubes ever installed on any engines !

[300EVIL]

Hi SilverGhost,
Thanks for your post. According to my uncle, the engine is the original block. He bought the boat in 79 from someone who said he upgraded the above mentioned parts. Some of the parts he may have installed by my uncle like the cam, springs and retainers.

I wouldn't exactly call a move from a 2bl to a 4bl an "ill fated" attempt... More air + more fuel = Power unless I'm missing something in a watercraft... Just look at a 500ci pro-stock engine versus a 500ci street engine. Same displacement but it breathes like a SOB due to carbs, intake, heads, and headers.

Either way... I'm not looking for MASSIVE power out of this engine but I want it running like a Swiss watch while I have it in there. I see a 351 in it's future...

I fully plan on getting it running as it sits first but I don't think there is any big deal with replacing gaskets and changing the ignition if the timing is staying the same.

You seem to keep mentioning "Low HP" like the SBF is some plague. Yeah, I've had cars with 600, 800, 1200HP but don't knock the 289. It's not that bad. Shelby used the 715CFM carb on 289's and I'd imagine he would know what the hell he was doing. Now, this doesn't mean it's correct for marine applications but I'm just going by street **** because that's what I know.

There are & were NO Vacuum Tubes ever installed on any engines !

WOW! Remind me to never make analogies or jokes! Chill dude...


BTW, also preforming compression and leak down tests on the cylinders as well.

[silverghost]

You are correct~~~
A 289 CAN be a high horsepower engine~~~

BUT~~~
You would need better flowing heads~~~
Bigger Intake & exhaust valves ~~~
Better valve springs
Higher Compression pistons~~~
Better Heavy duty Rods, and bolts & crankshaft~~~
Better bearings & caps
More agressive camshaft.

Just adding another 4 barrel manifold & carb, and little else, will NOT get you there !

You canot put a new 4 barrel carb & intake manifold and take grandma's old base model 2 barrel low compression 289 mustang and go hunting down one of Carroll Shelby's Cobras or GT-350s !

As I said~~~
It is just NOT that simple !

Not ALL Hollman~Moody marine engines were high-performance engines.
Your boat's original engine based on you data plate was a low-power base engine.

That 715 CFM carb you have there is way too big for that engine.

[300EVIL]

Dude.... Wow... Can you relax a little... It's like 3:30AM...

I doubt I'm going to snap a rod anytime soon. The boat has been running this way since at least 79. I was personally thinking of dropping the carb to something more reasonable like 500 or 600CFM. All you seem to want to do is argue. CHILL THE HELL OUT!

[silverghost]

Not trying to argue~~~
Just telling you what you MAY have based on your H/M data tag !
And trying to explain it to you !

It would appear from YOUR reaction that ~~~
It may be hard for you to accept the real true facts ?

Just the same as your boat having Donzi Decals did not make it a Real Donzi !
Someone put those decals on this boat.
You had a hard time accepting the fact that it was a Splash clone; and not a real Donzi.
No true Donzi 16 or 18 ever had such a large hatch opening !

Don't kill me~~~
I'm only the messanger !

It's still a neat boat, & gift, from your Uncle & Aunt .

Enjoy your new boat !

[300EVIL]

Adam~~~
I am not a Holman~Moody expert by any means~~~

Not trying to argue~~~
Just telling you what you MAY have based on your H/M data tag !

Hmmmm....

It may be hard for you to accept the facts ?

No, but I do find it hard to decipher belligerence from the logic in your posts.

[Just Say N20]

300, I think you are on the right track. The 289 Ford and 283 Chevy are great engines.

The big difference between car and boat engines (besides the "anti-boom" parts, like spark arresting alt, carbs with J-tubes, anti-spark dist, marine fuel pump, etc), is that in inboard/outboard applications (in non-mega buck, non-racing applications), usually people try to limit rpms to around 5,500 because of the drive limitations.

Strong car engines can be built to rev to whatever. Good boat engines need a cam that produces a lot of low end torque, and produce a torque curve that is relatively flat. I know of quite a few people from back in the day, that went to reputable high performance car engine builders to have boat engines made, much to their disappointment. An engine that develops most of its torque above 5,000, and peak hp over 6,500 might be great for a car, but not so much for a boat.

One of the mistakes folks make is putting on too much carb. A small block engine running 5,200 rpms simply isn't that big of an air pump to need much of a carb. Most SBC/SBF I know that are running well have carbs in the 650 - 750 cfm range.

A dual plane intake manifold can be helpful in getting more low end torque.

I thought your comment about points and tubes was funny.

[Sweet little 16]

the tag being referenced is on the bell housing, it really doesn't mean much if the motor was touched. check by the starter for a block casting that will give you some idea.



Some things to keep in mind.




exhaust are a problem with a ford, well not really a problem just expensive for a hi-po set either hiteks or CMI. either way the logs can have some issues once you leave the stock arena, center riser alum. manifolds are available better than logs but still not hi-po.



the 351 is going to make you address/ creative plumb the exhaust exits on the boat the 351 is taller and the end of the riser dumps are going to be in a different place. It might even have some hatch clearance issues.



before you turn the motor either remove the hm water pump or squirt some dish soap in the to lube it. If the impellor is dried out and it breaks up it will cause problems downstream.



when you run it on the hose watch the pressure , you can damage the head gaskets.


dump and inspect the oil before you run it and again once you run it repeat this.


If you are really a tinkerer you're gonna get tired of the ford and want to move onto a chevy more goodies and parts around at better prices.

[mphatc]

300,

I have a 400HP SBF in my Corsican . . . it screams . .but a Ford build is expensive . .

If you limit yourself to 4800-5000 RPM and the lower end on the engine you have is strong, The crankshaft in your engine is better than the newer 5.0 SBF . . updates like GT40P heads and intake and exhaust will get some gains . . just focus on torque as has been written here.

My engine runs the Holley 650 marine, and a Mallory electronic ignition.

The last 302 ran GT40P heads , Edelbrock Air gap, and H&M logs, this was a strong 335 HP engine 333 FT LBS torque with a Bullet custom grind cam.

if you're interested I'll share the details of my builds, and the struggles of working with Ford SB in boats . . I'm now building 2 383s for a Magnum 27, much easier . . .

You might also consider that if the engine you have is exactly as you describe it . . and is really from a:
Manufactured: 1st Week, May 1967
(Supposedly from a GT350)

That somewhere in the GT350 restoration market there is someone willing to pay huge dollars for an original H&M engine . . I'd investigate that path as well, and then consider switching to Chevy marine power . .

I didn't see it written, what's the hull that this is all installed into?

Mario L.

[MOP]

Did not read all the posts!!! But from past experience a 289 runs very nice with 550 to 600 cfm 715 it will be boggy on the bottom. The stock heads just can't flow enough for a big carb, I ran a fairly hot Esky cam with a 600 in a coupe years back and surprise quite a few.

[68 Donzi]

300EVIL

Make no mistake about it, that's one rare Donzi you have there! And I'll bet you're going to enjoy it.

Now on to your engine ...

Donzi was just starting out in the mid 60's and Holman Moody was a good source for specialized application engines including marine. The 289 that Holman Moody produced for your Donzi is actually a good little engine. Holman Moody was one of the better 'tuners' back in the 60's and into the early 70's and made a number of configurations for this engine. In the 2v configuration it's output was rated at (just above) 200BHP@4,400RPM. (BTW: this configuration had a cast iron 2v manifold, mild camshaft, hydraulic lifters and a single point distributor).

Any one wishing to find out more about how to decipher the serial number for the Holman Moody engines made for marine applications can refer to a post I made here: http://forums.aaca.org/f120/holman-m...tml#post866390

Your plan (which you made quite clear) is a good one and I like your idea of replacing the carburetor as it is a logical move. You are right about the Holley on your Donzi ... it too is rare. This particular carb was used by Carrol Shelby on his 289ci Cobra's and GT350 Mustangs. It was chosen by Carroll because of the pivot system in the bowls ... it was superb for the tight turns so often encountered in road racing.

Anyway ... as you said, your current 715cfm Holley is rare. I suspect that you can sell this carb for somewhere between $600 and $1,000 on eBay to one of the many collectors wishing to complete their project to original specifications.

For your Donzi, the best replacement would be a Holley 450cfm 4v (part# 0-80364) as this model would work well with the remaining engine combination.

In the combination you have indicated you are looking for ... you will end up with a more reliable, better starting, better running and more economical engine combination. Good Job!

To this day, I still remember my first 289 ...

I had a 65 Ford Fairlane (in the late 60's) with a 'K' 289 (aka: HiPo) which stock was rated 271BHP@6,000 rpm. My combination was modified to run in either Little Stock (500cfm Holley 2v) or Junior Stock (780cfm Holley 4v). The engine I built back then had 13.5:1 compression, solid cam (510 lift, 320 duration), but with stock (HiPo) steel heads. Backed by a Borg-Warner T10 (crash-boxed 4 speed) and a truck rear end with 31 spine axles and 567:1 rear end gears, the Fairlane turned 12.50's with the 4v and 13.90's with the 2v. In case you are wondering, I won a lot more races in Little Stock. Those were great times (and good time slips) for 40+ years ago.

Oh well ... back to today. I hope I helped... enjoy your Donzi!!!

[Tony]

Great first post...and welcome to the board!

[68 Donzi]

I am not a Holman~Moody expert by any means~~~

No need to explain ... in fact few people today are. It's been about 40 years since the HM heydays and although they (Holman Moody) are still operating a website today, most of the 'experts' that developed the original product line and created the reputation behind HM, are either gone ... or not interested anymore (aka: retired).

It was not uncommon for any of these H/M engines to have solid lifters & and a special grind marine cam.

Actually, this particular engine was equipped with a somewhat mild hydraulic cam. Regardless however, it was still a great engine for Donzi during the roll-out of their 16' and 18' boats.

Did he later slap that 4 barrel 715 CFM carb and intake manifold on the original low power base model engine from an unrelated junkyard auto ?

The Holley 715cfm carb on this Donzi did not come from the junkyard. Regardless of how long ago it was installed (my guess is that was many moons ago) it is too specialized and too rare to have been 'slapped on'. In fact ... I would guess that it was not slapped on at all. This was not a novices normal carb choice and although I agree that it is not the right choice, my guess is that the installation was done at the same time as the cam, solid lifters and the high-rise dual plane aluminum intake were added.

Maybe some other modifications were done at that time. Who knows. But I assure you, this carb didn't come from a junkyard.

There are & were NO Vacuum Tubes ever installed on any engines !

On this point ... I agree and actually I found the comment to be quite hilarious.

[zelatore]

300, looks like you've got a solid plan. Basically, get it running in it's current state, the figure out where you want to go.

Like everybody else, I'd agree that's probably too much carb for that motor unless there's a lot more going on inside that you don't know about. Major head work for example. Stock Ford heads just never flowed much. (yeah, I too used to drag race a 302 and cry over how 'easy' the Chevy guys had it!)

BTW, I liked the tube comment. I took a look at some of your other projects and I kinda figure you know enough about electronics to make a joke on the subject.

But just for the record, I still like tubes! (in my audio equipment, anyway)

Sorry, I know I'm not really adding anything useful to the conversation, but I need to kill some time while the DVR buffers F1 qualifying so I can skip the commercials. Only 38 minutes recorded so far....