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Thread: Building Surface Tension

  1. #121
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    Thanks George and Parnell for the kind words. Although progress is slow, I think that is actually better in some respects as it allows for some extra research which is fun. We are going to spray two red test panels, one with white primer and one with black primer so we can compare the effect in bright sunlight. On the hull side, right now, the Mule likes its propshaft dead even with the pad or a little above. But that comes with a price - the Mule got its name when it almost tossed my arse into the drink. It was enough to snap the lanyard and shut the motor down.....ever since then.... "The Mule"! One of the reasons I believe this happens is because of the lower unit. Amazing lift and control right up to 70 and a great attack angle but then things can get interesting. I am going to change l/u configs next week and see what changes occur. I'll also change props and go over to a 3 blade. With the Sporty, the Fusion Rev4 is a great oveall pop. But when we change lowers I will try a Mirage Plus or a Tempest. All this will play a role on final hull configs
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  2. #122
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    Before we commit 100% to the hull config I have spent some time trying combos. At last count, I have 10 props up on the shelf and have the benefit of trying different prop shaft heights as well. I get a kick out of the amount of posts that talk about "what prop to use" as if there is an algorithm some where. I really do think that you have to try, try, and try again as there are so many water and hull variables to consider. I am feeling better about the single height delta pad approach at this point but still some testing to do and the full hot rod concept is now 100% of the focus for Surface Tension. I have a very specific goal in mind
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  3. #123
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    Greg
    I have tried 10 props on my 16 and I'm up to 6 so far on the 21 testing is the key and its way cool that you can change the drive height Thats 20-30 tests with the 10 props right there Good luck keep us posted
    Parnell
    Time forSweet Cheekz to find a new home

  4. #124
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    So true Parnell, there is no way around testing and I feel better that you had to go the same route with your 16. After it was all done, what prop did you finally decide was fastest? Below are some pictures for the archives. Maybe it will help others. One thing to note in Pic # 3 is that the factory skeg profile actually looks almost "bent". So thus far I have a couple of good data points to build on for the future goal
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  5. #125
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    Hey Greg
    My ss is not on the boat right now awaiting fixing so I will measure that same dimension when I get it back together soon. I never really finished testing because I hit 80 and that was my goal and then I wanted to go boating then the drive broke. I have a 26 3 blade turbo from grizz spinning 5800 for my 80 but I had 2 other props that ran 79 so I think there's a little left. Once spring broke I worked almost exclusively on my 21 to get it going and all my testing has been on that this summer. Keep us updated
    Parnell
    Time forSweet Cheekz to find a new home

  6. #126
    AndyDiSario Guest

    Catching up on Building Surface Tension thread

    Greg,

    This is a very-interesting thread. I have just read through it to catch back up to your impressive progress. Some random comments on postings.

    #27. Yes, my BMS 4" Ultra HD hydraulic jack plate weighs just 37 lbs at the transom. It is wonderful!

    #55. For what it's worth, I am able to store necessary items under my stock bow deck. In the center bridge area, I slide two Fortress aluminum Danforth anchors with SS chains and line. In the starboard bow well is a pack of four lifevests. I attached pull lanyards (lines) for retrieval of items buried out of convenient reach. Seems to work. I understand your configuration will be different, as it will be custom. We stow much more under the center locker, the stern bench seat well, and under both the port and starboard hatches (in drybags, mostly). Storage is a big requirement to us and our guests, as it's amazing how many items people need for a long day of boating!

    #85. What approach did you try by closing the splashwell? Did you redesign some sort of scupper? Even with the weight of the 225X, its extra noise insulation and redirected intake stream I added (making the cowling quite heavier, for example) and its jackplate, I ensured the scupper was retained. This was a priority when reinforcing the transom with a powder-coated SS wrap-around plate. At worst, the Donzi lets in an inch or so of water just at the transom while reversing, which quickly drains out when up to plane.

    Truthfully, it pleases me how much cleaner the splashwell stays on the Donzi, as compared to our Stingray, which gets dirty mostly with grease and oil drippings. I attribute this mostly to the Promax 225X being a much cleaner motor than the old pre-mixed, carb'ed Force on the Stingray. This works out well as the Stingray has its own little integrated swim/boarding platform, whereas with the Donzi, we use the splashwell as the staging area for boarding after swimming, before climbing into the cockpit.

    I like our outboard motorboats' scuppers so much, I (almost) tried drilling and plumbing scuppers into the forward-slanted footwells of our old Waverunner. The Waverunner retained several inches of water in its footwells. This I considered doing -- until realizing the bases of the footwells were *under* the waterline of the Waverunner while at rest! Doubly-well I did not attempt this, especially since the Waverunner is long sold.

    #124. What were your findings when trying a 3-blade prop?

    Regards,
    Andy DiSario

  7. #127
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    Andy,
    At 37lb it is hard to go wrong. Is that an "advertised" weight or did you throw it on the scale along with the controls and harness?

    When Surface Tension is done the factory splashwell will be history. The theme of the project is to re-create what the factory might produce today if they were to build a tastefully updated "2010" 16 Baby. Adios, closed, dirt gathering, stress crack targeted splashwell. Now one thing I have had to think through is the fact that with a open splashwell there will be no lip against which to brace oneself for the inevitable "at sea cowl removal" repair. I am giving some thought to a stainless spanner, represented by the red line in pic #4 below. Maybe there is a way to have some type of catch collar either on the engine clamp or the boat to accept the spanner on an as needed basis. Have not wrestled that to the ground yet, but an open waxed splashwell will be awfully slick at sea.

    In the meantime, the Mule has taken to driving itself the project is going so slow LOL. It is one nasty Mule, very anti-social
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  8. #128
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    Meanwhile, it is back to making decisions on the build, specifically the colors. Here is what we have decided.......

    1. Rub rail down will all be primed in black gel
    2. Rub rail down final finish will also be gel
    3. Inside hull and underbelly of deck will be white gel
    4. Deck and c_ckpit will be paint
    5. Stripe will be paint

    The logic here is that the boat is a saltwater boat, and I would like to leave it in the water for a couple of weeks at a time without concern, thus gel below the rail. Topsides however, I'd like the easy maintenance and high gloss "pop", thus paint. I am stuck however on what exact final red color to use and also what manufacturers as well.

    Options currently include Ferro, Valspar and Minicraft.

    The first option (pic 1) is from Ferro and member Bert has used that on his super cool F-14 project. He kindly is going to get me the exact color code and I think that Ferro (Ashland Chemicals) was a Donzi supplier at some point. Check out the Ferro option below in pic #1

    The second option (pic 2) is from a company called Valspar and this came from a West coast connection who is doing a superb restore of a 1984 Sleekcraft 26. Massive project and really really incredible execution. The left coast folks can really turn out amazing stuff as well as I'm sure you all know. Here is the color in pic #2. I am waiting to get the exact code for it as well. This project also called for clear top coat.

    Mr. Carter graciously offered to help out if Minicraft RT822 becomes the choice. This is the 2003-2009 "Aronow Edition Red RT822" which is what Mr Carter chose to use on his current project. This finished color is shown in pic #3 and of course it is hard to argue with anything George decides to use.

    My head is starting to spin with all the details that are passing through it on the build and I have not even had a perfect Manhattan yet LOL. Maybe I should to gain some "clarity". Clint sent me some color blocks (pic#4) where he primed with both black and white beneath the red to follow up on Mr Carter's thought. I am comfortable now that black primer is the way to go. Initially I even liked the red he chose, but then I found out it was a Wellcraft color from the late 80's. I don't think I want a Wellcraft color on this hull unless I can come up with a catalog shot from back in the day to see what it looks like. It is a big benefit to have "current" projects using the gel's in question. Even though it is still pictures, just gives some overall comfort..........I hope
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  9. #129
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    The rumble seat bases are now finished and I think the height will work
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  10. #130
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    I got an answer back from the West. The Valspar gel product code # used on the Sleekcraft 26 is Red 5R-14 Represents colors available in pigment dispersions (whatever that means ) Now I just need to find someone between NYC and Syracuse who carries Valspar product.


    And for all you gel coat fans, here is some background info from the website.............

    Introduction to Valspar Gel Coat

    Gel coat makes fiberglass reinforced products attractive and practical. Technically, it is a surface coating of pigmented polyester resin which gels against the mold surface and cures with the structural laminate. It faithfully reproduces the mold surface, imparts color, and protects the reinforcing fibers from external elements. In many cases, the surface treated with gel coat is the only part of the structure that can be seen. To the homeowner, it is simply a reinforced plastic. Resins, fillers, pigments and promoters are carefully selected and formulated to develop the quality and surface appearance needed to make the product durable.

    Key Points

    • The basic ingredient of gel coat is the polyester resin system, which provides the chemical composition that determines the chemical and physical properties of the gel coat.
    • Reacted into the resin, isophthalic acid provides greater levels of water and chemical resistance than does orthophthalic anhydride. Greater chemical, weather and corrosion resistance with a higher degree of flexibility are the immediate benefits when isophthalic acid replaces orthophthalic acid in the resin.
    • When the highest possible quality and performance levels are required, neopentyl glycol is reacted into the isophthalic resin in the proper mole ratio. This raw material can produce weathering and chemical resistance capabilities superior to resins formulated with other common glycols.
    • Pigments and their quality determine both the color we see and the color integrity, which simply means the ability of the color to resist change from exposure to various environments.
    • Extenders provide the gel coat with proper spraying characteristics and influence the cured physical properties.
    • The viscosity comes from the thixotrope. Its purpose is to hold the gel coat on a vertical surface.

  11. #131
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    And to add a little bit more info to this very informative post;
    Light colors use a base w/white titanium powder added (this is your basic super white gel that's used for most everything). It seems to be a little thicker, may need to be thinned a bit, and the color is very dense, i.e., it takes very little to cover completely.
    Dark colors, navies, reds, greens, blacks, etc., use a neutral (transparent) base, and needs tons of pigment to make the gel dense enough to cover. Gels like this cost substantially more (but red is the most expensive) due to the quantity of pigment needed. I think these gels require more gel to cover completely as I found the first coat could be somewhat transparent.
    George Carter
    Central Florida
    gcarter763@aol.com
    http://kineticocentralfl.com/


    “If you have to argue your science by using fraud, your science is not valid"
    Professor Ian Plimer, Adilaide and Melbourne Universities

  12. #132
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    More color info back with the help of board member Bert. The color used on his F-14 is a Ferro product. Evidently, Ferro used to have a plant in Florida that supplied Donzi with colors for a period of time. The plant burned down at some point, but Bert had gone to Mr. Brown for help.

    Here is a quote from Bert's post...... The first 5 Gallons were a standard red from Fiberglass Coatings. It looked like tomato soup so I called Alan Brown (Brownie) and he said try Candy apple red from Ferro. They had three formulas on file from different years. They sent three chips and from that I picked the Candy red color.

    Bert and his shop were able to contact Ferro, and amazingly, they had some old paper records from the late 70's that had made it through the fire. It is a custom color that is more toward Candy Apple and away from Lucan Red. Evidently, Lucan red was excellent for stripes, but not good for full cover. Bert's shop is willing order a pale for us if we go the Ferro route. Here is some more commentary on the application...... What you do, and I told him to do is to mix 1/2 Duratec clear and 1/2 red gel then the last coat will flow (somewhat) and then you don't have to start the wet sanding process with 220 grit. Maybe 400 to start. I was told by a pro that this is the way to do it today.

    Trivia question for the elders.....what years did Ferro supply Donzi with colors?

  13. #133
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    A lot of talent on this board and helpful people Bert and George have two beautiful boats Well done greg
    Parnell
    Time forSweet Cheekz to find a new home

  14. #134
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    Just searched up a post from member Greg back in 2004. Greg this is Greg, you still out there?

    I have 2 original color charts that came with my '66 Donzi. The darker of the two colors that Mat spoke of is Kandy Apple Red, Ferro Mfg. # VF1830. I have two original color charts. They have always been kept in a folder out of sunlite. I've tried scanning them in, but my scanner does'nt give an accurate reproduction. I think the only way to properly reproduce them is to have them copied, colors checked and snailmailed.

  15. #135
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    Very true Parnell, for the most part any time I have pushed out a PM the recipient has been willing to help out. In the meantime, I'll need to choose a color.

    Minicraft 2003-2009 "Aronow Edition Red RT822"
    Valspar "Red 5R-14"
    Ferro Mfg. "VF1830-Kandy Apple Red"

    Man, I wish I could see boats re-gel'd with these in person

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