First Donzi ever built?

[Greg Guimond]

If you took Cliff Wind's 16 Ski Sporter hull #23 with its pictures, and compared it to Bob in Covington's 16 Ski Sporter which Bob himself, as the current owner, said was 100% the 16 that Boating News tested (his Dad is still alive btw) you would narrow things down a lot.

a. Cliff's is verified #23 (is there a grease pen marking on it?)
b. Bob's is verified #226, 100% a 1966 hull, and thought to be laid up in April 1966 (is there a grease pen marking on that one?)
c. There is zero way that Donzi had built a production 16 hull in April of 1964. For timeline, let's assume that the first prototype was built in April 1964. that would mean that they built 226 Ski Sporters over a 24 month period April '64 - April '65 - April '66

The only, and I mean only guy who would know how many 16 Ski Sporter I/0 production hulls were built before the boat that was shown in Jax in November 1964 is Sir Allan Brown. He was there in 1964, and the dude evidently does not forget a friggin thing. Walt Walters might be able to add vague color about the prototype, pre-production hulls. They are both 81 this year I believe.

Brownie, Brownie, Brownie's your man, if Brownie can't nail it .......... no one can! .....

[woobs]

Greg, can you verify if #226 has clamshells or not, and if so are they factory?

Matty,
That boat listed for sale looks to be white originally. My mistake with the dash... I just got excited.

Sorry about the red boat confusion.. it was listed on a website as a 1966 brochure. I removed it (before I saw your post) when I could not find a reference to 1966 on the actual brochure.

Whether Tomrons is slightly different or not is not the question. Which is.. are those factory vents. Maybe 136 is around where they started them? (close to Roy Farmers statement)

When I worked for am import car manufacturer we brought in a new model and chose a name different from Japan or the USA. About 5 or six of us went out to the parking lot where we had a couple of actual vehicles to work with. We moved stuff around and applied different badges/decals where we they should go. These particular vehicles were badged differently, and were sold the way we left them. A message to the Port of Vancouver that day set the program that was decided for the life of the model. Point is... maybe at Donzi in 1965 they tried a few configurations of vents before a decision was made.

Why do you say the vents appeared late in 1966? It would seem that we have a rather large gap with no vents then at the end of the gap... vents. What clues lead to a belief of a late 1966 application of these vents?

[mattyboy]

I am at a disadvantage with the LGDCC down I have I don't have all my info at a point and click I have to search multiple machines and files.


we need to start tracking confirmed info unconfirmed info and generally accepted info

confirmed info

hull 136 ordered july 6th 1965 delivered july 21 1965
hull 136 has 4 clamshells( origin is unconfirmed) two fwd of the windshield and two on the rear deck at the back of the hatch
hull 226 has three clamshells one front deck two rear deck
Jan 31 1967 is some kind of benchmark cards are noted started and completed before this date Confirmed. (unconfirmed)Most likely as a tracking device for the purchase price of Donzi from Teleflex to Full Chisholm ownership which takes place in 1968
hull 339 started on july 18 1966 confirmed by Greg's picture earlier in this thread by Bill at the factory. that means from july of 65 to july of 66 202 hulls are made.
the test boat in the boating news in august of 66 has no clamshells confirmed hull number unconfirmed

[mattyboy]

generally accepted info to be taken as fact


1. early 16 are light layups the bottoms fail the motor falls thru the bottom of the boat especially if more modern v 8 power is placed in the boat
2. the eatons were weak and had an issue with swinging to the trailer position or leaving the boat and a big hole in the back while under way
3. these two items result in not a lot of early boats surviving
4. early boats had no clamshells yet the 18 comes out in 65 with 4 in what would be known today as the classic arrangement
5. the early Hornet have raised louver vents then in 68 they are replaced with the classic 4
6. 1967 16s have 2 1968 16s have 4
7. production numbers were said to be inflated with the sale to Teleflex that would have happened in spring or summer of 65 Teleflex and John Chisholm are in place as of Nov 65
8. 1964 Donzi comes on the scene racing operations first and foremost production after

[Greg Guimond]

Greg, can you verify if #226 has clamshells or not, and if so are they factory?

I am at a disadvantage with the LGDCC but we need to start tracking confirmed info.

generally accepted info to be taken as fact is that early 16's are light layups the bottoms fail the motor falls thru the bottom of the boat.

woobs, I can't verify that but contact Bob and he will know what #226 had originally and currently. You should also ask him if there is a grease pencil marking on his.

Confirmed today is that the Jax boat shown in Nov 1964 was either #3 or #4

[mattyboy]

woobs, I can't verify that but contact Bob and he will know what #226 had originally and currently. You should also ask him if there is a grease pencil marking on his.

Confirmed today is that the Jax boat shown in Nov 1964 was either #3 or #4

Confirmed 3 or 4 ??????? sounds like the text book definition of confirmed

[woobs]

woobs, I can't verify that but contact Bob and he will know what #226 had originally and currently. You should also ask him if there is a grease pencil marking on his.

I don't now Bob. Is he a member here? The other site? What is his screen name?

[mattyboy]

here is some reading on Bob's awesome little grumble green 16

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthre...ews&highlight=

Bob confirms that the test boat in the article was purchased by his Dad from Balboa Marine the test boat as pictured has no clamshells.

Bob's 16 was for sale a while back, here is the thread linked to the boat from 2010 it shows the 3 non stock shaped clamshells so sometime after it left the factory and had the pics taken for the article these vents were added perhaps when the built 289 was put in.


http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthre...Donzi-Sweet-16

[Greg Guimond]

Confirmed 3 or 4 ??????? sounds like the text book definition of confirmed

Yep, confirmed, unless you are holding out data. ..Do you have something more definitive than the 16 that was shown at the Jacksonville Boat Show on November 15, 1964 being either #3 or #4 16 Ski Sporter built in your "stack 'o facts"? A pic of a grease pencil marking ID similar to the two that I have produced would be grand.

[mattyboy]

I showed the first Donzi in the Jacksonville, Fl. show in Nov. '64. White, blue stripe, 4 cyl. Volvo, sandcast 200 drive (first one ever in this country). Average redneck comment: "What the hayellll is that?

Brownie said hull one was the Jax boat how did you confirm it it was 3 or 4 and is it confirmed as 3 or 4

I have posted pics of what I can confirm please do the same maybe Lou can send ya pics

[woobs]

Other than being an interesting "historical fact" I don't understand the importance of whether it was boat #1, #3 or #4 at the Jacksonville show.

We already reasoned that more than one boat was produced at that time. This does not tell us how many at that time nor how many for 1964. Further, it does not tell us if there were any production differences in the early boats or, if there were, what were they and when they occurred.

So, why do we need to know if it was boat #1, #3 or #4 ?

just askin'

[Greg Guimond]

All of this is nothing more than interesting historical facts. There was some discussion earlier in the thread about how many hulls might have been pulled from the mold BEFORE the boat that was shown in Jax. Seeing as the show was mid November '64 I don't think that (20) hulls could have been built in in 1964. Matty's comment is wrong by a little as the Jax boat was the first with the Volvo 200 drive I believe. There was probably a lot of push to get that hull ready for Jax and then a bit of a "sort through the aftermath" once the show concluded with orders and deposits and such. The LGDC may have paperwork that shows otherwise but the factory would have basically 5 weeks to build (17) Ski Sporter 16s. And one of those 5 weeks would have been the Christmas holiday week, which I'm not sure would have seen much activity so you are down to 4 weeks to build twenty hulls or almost a hull a day. Possible but not probable as they were probably just getting ramped up.

So certainly no more than twenty 16s and maybe only (10) were truly built in 1964 taking away when they were delivered? What production differences did those ten or so hulls have would be another interesting bit of data and might even be a better first stab at a much smaller database that could actually get put together and crowd sourced to populate.

[woobs]

Okay, I follow your logic but, I don't follow your logic...

Just because the show was mid November 1964 it does not follow that the balance of 1964 boats were produced after that time with just 6 weeks to the end of the year. To be ready for the mid November show I submit the show boat (and probably several others) were started quite some time prior to the show.

How much prior? I'm sure experienced boat builders could put 1 boat out in pretty short order. However, if DONZI planned on entering the show it's safe to estimate that they started the production (of a new boat) with time in hand to have a sorted boat for a major product (and BRAND) launch.

So, let's say they started production in mid October for the mid November show. That adds another 4 weeks to the 6 you counted and now we have 10 weeks. Now, what's the chance that after producing Hull #1 in mid October that they let that mould sit idle?
20 boats in 10 weeks is hardly back breaking at 2 boats per week for experienced builders.
So lets give the factory Christmas week off. After all a start-up company has plenty of downtime, right? Especially just after a major launch and boat show that was obviously a success.

9 weeks, 20 boats...Do-able? YEP.
Even call it 18 boats, +/- 2-3 boats... it's a good estimate.

[Greg Guimond]

Now, what's the chance that after producing Hull #1 in mid October that they let that mould sit idle?

I think we are saying the same thing. The mold was not idle from hull #1 in mid October, it built hull #2, and #3 and then lets just say #4 which was the boat with the Volvo shown at Jax. I think you are saying that although #4 was shown, they may have had #5 already in the plug. And lets say that they worked round the clock to get the #4 Jax boat ready and Bristol for that Nov 15 show. And lets say that on November 15, the first day of the show a customer said "I want to buy this specific boat and Allan Brown took there money. Then on day 2 of the show, he took orders for 5 more hulls and went back to the factory and said start building them. That would mean from 11-15-64, the day that #4 was sold to 12/31/64 they would have built and grease penciled (16) boats. I would think they worked every Saturday and only took off let's say, Xmas and New Years eve to start drinkin and chasin the ladies early.

Hmmmmmmmm.

[woobs]

Almost.

I don't think they held production waiting for orders from the show. If you're in business you know you will be selling boats (especially if it's the only product you have announced) so, why wait to produce them?

It's not out of the realm that while #1 and #4 were being rigged (weeks before the show) they were still popping new hulls and getting their procedures' down. I figure they could have made somewhere around 8+ hulls in the 4 weeks from mid October up to the date of show. Of course some would be in the process of rigging... and then 8-10 or 12 additional hulls produced after Nov 15/64 to Dec 31/64.

Of course its all conjecture. But feasible.
But, I could buy into a number less than 20... maybe 15 or so, if there was ANY hard evidence or first hand recollection...