First Donzi ever built?

[Greg Guimond]

Greg, June 30 '64 if i recall correctly

Matty, lets wrestle this particular date to the ground 100% before we move on in creating the 16 timeline.

The May 18th and June 15th 1964 dates are 100% historically verified. I have seen several versions of the final "plan view" with later dates but I suspect that you have something in your archive that might show a 1964 Walt Walters handwritten date stamp. To me, June 30 sounds a little aggressive given your correct assumptions around the other two models Walters was drawing. I'd like to get a firm date on the Ski Sporters plan view if possible.

Based on Mr. Carters knowledge and comment, my earlier personal thought of (15) 1964 hulls being built is now sounding less and less probable. I might move my number once I have a plan view "date stamp" on deck.

[Morgan's Cloud]

Actually, y'all are missing a step.....after the lines plans are finished, and offsets are taken off and tabulated, the information has to lofted on a wood floor full scale. This is where the glitches are removed and certain lines will be smoothed.
I've actually been through this process several times, and I can tell you, it's not fast.
Then the offset table is corrected, the sections are transferred to sheets of plywood, the plywood frames set up on a strongback, the plug planked, corrected some more, and finished.
I've not been through the plug making process, but I have been through the design and lofting process.
I don't know, and haven't met Walt, but I would suspect Walt's design for the 16 was pretty far along before the official process actually began.
Walt has admitted he did a lot of copying of the work Ray Hunt did for Dick Bertram. I would suspect Walt had a number of designs semi-complete and ready to finish for a potential customer.

I was going to ask earlier , and besides all of the above , what if the first one out didn't perform to specs ?
Back to the plug and make more changes .
Then more testing .
= More time/delays

[Greg Guimond]

Slight correction, It was Merrick Lewis who bought Formula not Dick Genth. Dick Managed a few of Merrick's Marine based companies. Jeff

Jeff, Michaels book said it was Genth of thunderbird boats who negotiated the deal. I guess that would be more accurate

Both correct. Merrick Lewis's holding company "Alliance Machine" already owned both Thurnderbird Boats and Maritime Boats which would build the 32' model in early 1965. Merrick was always the money man and wanted to purchase Formula to add to his "stable" because Formula was winning races. Merrick brought in Genth as the front man and when the deal was done and Merrick owned Don A's Formula Boats in mid '64 he and Genth then decided to create Formula Thunderbird.

[mattyboy]

Matty, lets wrestle this particular date to the ground 100% before we move on in creating the 16 timeline.

The May 18th and June 15th 1964 dates are 100% historically verified. I have seen several versions of the final "plan view" with later dates but I suspect that you have something in your archive that might show a 1964 Walt Walters handwritten date stamp. To me, June 30 sounds a little aggressive given your correct assumptions around the other two models Walters was drawing. I'd like to get a firm date on the Ski Sporters plan view if possible.

Based on Mr. Carters knowledge and comment, my earlier personal thought of (15) 1964 hulls being built is now sounding less and less probable. I might move my number once I have a plan view "date stamp" on deck.

Greg
the final overview plan would have to be after your historically verified dates The drawing I saw had June 30 1964 could there be others with later dates sure as MC states I think things were tweaked a bit as they went along.

As I have been saying the more we look at this the more I feel that if they had 3-6 complete by the end of 64 it was a lot. In full production swing with multiple molds they were able to build a 16 in 5 days but this is with a production schedule to try and keep up with orders This was not right out of the gate. This was also with added manpower and with a seasoned crew with years of familiarity with the process. The first boats out of the mold were a learning curve, the first of their kinds.

[woobs]

I think if you buy into the theory that no retail boats were produced until after the Nov 15 Jax show, that 5-6 boats could be in the ballpark for the last 5 weeks of the year.

However, I still put stock into the theory that with completed moulds, they were popping hulls before the show. It makes no sense not to... and have the moulds idle.

If you wrap your head around this theory then, the big unknown is how long those moulds were available. If it is anywhere around 8 weeks +/- a week or so, then 10 or so boats is not out of the question even accounting for less than optimum staff working in the factory at a vastly reduced production rate of around one (1ish) Ski Sporter per week.

(I think we earlier established the peak averaged near 16 boats completed per month... = 4 per week)

[Greg Guimond]

Greg, the final overview plan would have to be after your historically verified dates The drawing I saw had June 30 1964. could there be others with later dates sure as MC states I think things were tweaked a bit as they went along.

Do you have a picture of that final 16 overview with the June 30, 1964 date stamp by chance?

[mattyboy]

Greg

I have to check all that stuff is on my work PC and I am on vacation no work for a week or so . we flipped thru the drawings with Walt last summer at Mystic.
lot of stuff to take in but that's what i recall.

[Greg Guimond]

I think if you buy into the theory that no retail boats were produced until after the Nov 15 Jax show, that 5-6 boats could be in the ballpark for the last 5 weeks of the year.

However, I still put stock into the theory that with completed moulds, they were popping hulls before the show. It makes no sense not to... and have the moulds idle. If you wrap your head around this theory then, the big unknown is how long those moulds were available. If it is anywhere around 8 weeks +/- a week or so, then 10 or so boats is not out of the question even accounting for less than optimum staff working in the factory at a vastly reduced production rate of around one (1ish) Ski Sporter per week.

Once Matty gets to his work PC we will know the date of the final plan view. If it is June 30, 1964 that Walt Walters concluded the drawings (I'm still thinking it's later) then you have July and August to do the construction. Using Mr. Carter's comments, I think it would take the month of July to fabricate the wooden plug and have the carpenter adjust it in preparation for the mold. Now, it would take at least the month of August to make the mold for the new Ski Sporter 16. Both of these steps are time consuming to get right.

So now it is September 1, 1964. If Matty substantiates the June 30 final plan, I am dropping from (15) 1964 builds to (10) hulls. To me, the concept of "prototype" is irrelevant for the 16. Although small adjustments were made to the first hulls ever built, the design was 90% what would be seen for years to come so those boats count as 1964s whether or not they were sold retail.

[mattyboy]

Once Matty gets to his work PC we will know the date of the final plan view. If it is June 30, 1964 that Walt Walters concluded the drawings (I'm still thinking it's later) then you have July and August to do the construction. Using Mr. Carter's comments, I think it would take the month of July to fabricate the wooden plug and have the carpenter adjust it in preparation for the mold. Now, it would take at least the month of August to make the mold for the new Ski Sporter 16. Both of these steps are time consuming to get right.

So now it is September 1, 1964. If Matty substantiates the June 30 final plan, I am dropping from (15) 1964 builds to (10) hulls. To me, the concept of "prototype" is irrelevant for the 16. Although small adjustments were made to the first hulls ever built, the design was 90% what would be seen for years to come so those boats count as 1964s whether or not they were sold retail.

I know you don't want to hear it but if you think the 16 finalizing was later what about the the 28 and 19 tool up ???? If you guys still think racing was not the top dog with Don and retail was his ultimate driving force, Then why is he globe trotting with his 27 Formula in the summer of 64? In August Don is in England and finishes 3rd to 2 bertrams in his 27 formula at the Cowes Torquay . I would Imagine that when he returned it was asses and elbows to get the new 28 ready for the Nov. race. and the upcoming 65 season.

[Greg Guimond]

Matty, no one is disputing that Don A's focus was on racing. I know the race stuff as well as you. In addition, Don was already plenty rich from his real estate development success in NY Metro and he had just sold Formula to Merrick Lewis so money was no issue. Avoid the other distractions and stay focused on the 16 Ski Sporter timeline .............

A. Lets get a picture of the June 30th date stamp
B. Does it take the month of July to construct a wooden plug?
C. Does it take the full month of August to build the mold for the Ski Sporter?

[Greg Guimond]

And just to clarify, my July and August is a full month for each because I agree with you that other "stuff" was going on above, beyond, and around the Ski Sporter plug and mold build out. Plus, we already know that Mr. Aronow and Mr. Brown did not shy from chasing a beaver pelt or three which would have also taken away from progress on the Ski Sporter.

All that said, I'm still thinking (10) hulls and Ski Sporter #001 comes out of the mold on Labor Day, or early September 1964 if the "Plan View" is June 30, 1964

[Greg Guimond]

I'm awaiting grease marking pics for what is claimed to be Ski Sporter 16 Hull #8.

and the plan and overview is dated the end of June 64 ok so If it took Walt a month to make the changes on paper how long to construct the plug?

I should have the #8 picture next week. The boat is out on the West Coast. Matty, do you have a picture of the Plan Overview date?

[mattyboy]

yes on file at Mystic Seaport july 1 64

[mattyboy]

some other benchmarks

in the design and production timeframe of other donzi models from paper to plastic

the 21 GT
paper plans july 68 boat started in mold Dec 68

the 22 classic style hull Criterion f22 22 2+3
paper plans Sept 77 boat started in mold Feb 78

Now this is when Donzi Marine is out of racing and they are solely setup to sell boats and have years of production under their belts. so it looks like a 5-6 month avg from paper to production. I will say Don probably pushed things a bit quicker maybe 4 months or so . So in Nov there are 3 16 built but I would say not many more are made in 64. I will say after the Nov race/jax show focus changes from race operations to the 16 big time

[mattyboy]

Matty, lets wrestle this particular date to the ground 100% before we move on in creating the 16 timeline.

The May 18th and June 15th 1964 dates are 100% historically verified. I have seen several versions of the final "plan view" with later dates but I suspect that you have something in your archive that might show a 1964 Walt Walters handwritten date stamp. To me, June 30 sounds a little aggressive given your correct assumptions around the other two models Walters was drawing. I'd like to get a firm date on the Ski Sporters plan view if possible.

Based on Mr. Carters knowledge and comment, my earlier personal thought of (15) 1964 hulls being built is now sounding less and less probable. I might move my number once I have a plan view "date stamp" on deck.

Greg

let's take these dates June 15th and take 4 months and a week or two and you are at the end of OCT this is when you have a completed mold based on the avg shown in my previous post. So production starts in NOV. Logistically speaking the final plan can come later once the offsets are done they can start the plug and once they have the boat out of the mold things like the pattern for the interior can start and plans for the other rigging can come about