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45171
07-31-2017, 01:49 PM
Hello all,

I am getting to know my 16 and figure out the tendencies it has on the water. I think I have the trim tabs mostly figured out, location indicators would make me more comfortable with adjusting while learning how to use them. I use it on a roughly 400 acre lake with typical boat traffic, the worst waves I see are from wake boats. Nothing too major.

I would like to ask for advice from the community about what I do and don't want to do while driving this boat, anything that comes to mind will be helpful to me. My daily driver boat is a 22 ft Fisher Freedom deck boat, not real fast and certainly not as nimble to react as the 16. But this is what I'm used to driving, night and day difference.

So far I started out with the tabs all the way up and then tapped the trimmed tab buttons till it smoothed out, probably 6-7 times.

Here are a few questions that I used the search option on this site for but could not find any answers that helped. I have had other questions answered by searching so I think that I'm using it right.

1. Is there 1 ideal position for the trim tabs? And can they be used to level the load at all to adjust for more weight on one side of the boat?
2. Can the gunnels go underwater during a turn?
3. Do all the 16's have a ski locker? Mine has a round lid in the middle of the floor, I did not see anything like a ski locker when I pulled the carpet up.

But if anyone has any feedback whats o ever please let me have it.

Thanks in advance for your support.

Morgan's Cloud
07-31-2017, 04:48 PM
Hello all,



1. Is there 1 ideal position for the trim tabs? No . If there was you'd always be running under ideal weather/speed and load conditions

And can they be used to level the load at all to adjust for more weight on one side of the boat? This is exactly the sort of thing they are made for .

2. Can the gunnels go underwater during a turn? Been in a lot of boats that heel into turns but never seen one that puts the gunwhales under the water .

Thanks in advance for your support.

Never had a 16 so I don't know about the ski locker though .

mattyboy
07-31-2017, 08:23 PM
on the 16 skisporter the ski locker is on the starboard side infront of the dash a molded shelve that holds the ski it runs almost up to the nose not sure if the newer sweet 16( post 1990) or the 16 classic( with the 2+2 seating) have the forward ski locker I would think on a starboard helm sweet 16 the locker would be on the port side and on the classic it should be centered in the front

I had tabs on mine after I found the right prop I never used them left them all the way up

the tabs on my 16 could be a bit tricky and would do some weird stuff i had the boat going straight but the boat was on it's port side like in a tight turn

find the right prop and use the drive trim

mattyboy
08-01-2017, 07:57 AM
you can get the rub rail wet if you like when the wife was in the boat she didn't like being on the low side of a turn she felt I could dunk her head in the water so left turn it was

45171
08-01-2017, 09:05 AM
Never had a 16 so I don't know about the ski locker though .

I have gotten conflicting answers when I ask the question about leveling the load using the trim tabs. It makes sense to me that they could be used to help with that but the few people that I have asked tell me no, to load the boat in a manner to make it even as possible. Which is impossible when I'm alone.

As you can tell I need a lot more seat time :)

And experience posting on the forum, sorry for replying to the wrong quote...

45171
08-01-2017, 09:12 AM
on the 16 skisporter the ski locker is on the starboard side infront of the dash a molded shelve that holds the ski it runs almost up to the nose not sure if the newer sweet 16( post 1990) or the 16 classic( with the 2+2 seating) have the forward ski locker I would think on a starboard helm sweet 16 the locker would be on the port side and on the classic it should be centered in the front

I had tabs on mine after I found the right prop I never used them left them all the way up

the tabs on my 16 could be a bit tricky and would do some weird stuff i had the boat going straight but the boat was on it's port side like in a tight turn

find the right prop and use the drive trim

Thanks for the reply Mattboy. Mine has that molded shelf on the port side. It's sufficient to hold the fenders, ropes and whatever miscellaneous stuff I have but I was kind of expecting that all of them would have the hatch in the floor like I think I have seen on some.

Do you know if anyone has ever tried making more storage under the passengers seats?

Do you remember what prop worked best for you? I have 2 for mine and was going to switch to the smaller one because the RPMs wont get much over 4K with the bigger prop that is currently on it.

I haven't really used the drive trim for anything, I've just been trying to get to know the trim tabs....

Lenny
08-01-2017, 09:48 AM
Your drive trim is everything.

John C in PA
08-01-2017, 10:22 AM
1. Is there 1 ideal position for the trim tabs? And can they be used to level the load at all to adjust for more weight on one side of the boat?
2. Can the gunnels go underwater during a turn?
3. Do all the 16's have a ski locker? Mine has a round lid in the middle of the floor, I did not see anything like a ski locker when I pulled the carpet up.


Based on my '92 Sweet 16:



Although proper loading is important, leveling is accomplished otherwise by the tabs. I also use them along with the trim to get the best ride depending on speed and water conditions. Remember unless they are in the full up position they are creating drag.
on a hard right turn I've wet my hand when it's hanging over the gunn'l. That's also why my better half no longer rides with me.
i have STB steering and there is a ski locker on left of center. That's where I store fenders and stuff. On my boat, the fuel tank access is under the round port in the floor.


Your trim is your first choice for control of the drive, whether down for takeoff or straight on for cruising or what setting is nesessary to control proposing or conditions.

Regarding your prop, we need: engine, drive ratio, what make and pitch prop you now have, GPS MPH, and rpm you get and what you want.

More than other advice: SEAT TIME.

John C

Morgan's Cloud
08-01-2017, 11:41 AM
I have gotten conflicting answers when I ask the question about leveling the load using the trim tabs. It makes sense to me that they could be used to help with that but the few people that I have asked tell me no, to load the boat in a manner to make it even as possible. Which is impossible when I'm alone.

As you can tell I need a lot more seat time :)

And experience posting on the forum, sorry for replying to the wrong quote...


Although some people seem to have a misplaced abhorrence to trim tabs I wouldn't own a V bottomed boat without them .
Everyone knows that we can never seem to get our passengers or other cargo to go exactly where it should for perfect balance on every trip .
Out drive trim is a separate function altogether and should not be confused with what tabs do . Trim and the most perfect prop in the world cannot overcome a boat that is not perfectly balanced port to stbd or is experiencing a stiff beam wind while running .

If I need to level the boat for the most comfortable and driest ride I'll be far from running at WOT and a negligible amount of drag won't matter in the least . It's not like I'm going to have the bow stuffed a foot lower than the transom ! :biggrin.:

45171
08-01-2017, 12:30 PM
I will get that information together when I get home from work this evening.

In the meantime I thought I would share a couple of pics of what we are talking about, and I have never posted any pictures of it on here yet. 8611986120

mattyboy
08-01-2017, 12:49 PM
the shelve is the ski locker

yes hornet marine made a 16 splash and made storage and cooler in the seat bases could be done but would be a glass project

we need more on your setup to tell you props eng and drive ratio

my setup was a beast when i first got it it would porpoise chine walk tail spin I could get the tabs to help but I went thru about 10 props until I found one that the ride was stable under all conditions

I had a volvo with no trim you have a merc setup with trim so your props are going to different from mine

tabs do help if your not able to get up on top of the rough stuff, to keep the nose down and cut thru it as far as side to side leveling with a family of 4 it was putting stuff in the right place cargo and passengers in a 16 with 4 people everything in its place and a place for everything

the other good thing with tabs is tubing you and go real slow and keep the nose down for tubers who don't like fast

mattyboy
08-01-2017, 12:57 PM
some time behind the wheel and it will be damn the tabs

learn to fly

mattyboy
08-01-2017, 01:29 PM
here's a late model 16 in flight

45171
08-01-2017, 01:32 PM
Nice ride Mattboy- I really like the timeline that you have started. I personally appreciate anything that's older and classic/original and would've probably spent more time shopping for an original boat before buying this one if I knew then what I do now. This was one of those things that I had to have as soon as I saw it and glad that I went for it. Am I'm glad that I did!

I was hoping to see a picture of that factory installed head :toiletpap, that's one way to get around not having to find a way to climb back into it haha!

I've felt a little chine walk already when I've been alone in it with the tabs somewhat down going in the high 40's. I can only assume that it will get worse with higher speeds and less hull in the water.

45171
08-01-2017, 01:34 PM
some time behind the wheel and it will be damn the tabs

learn to fly

Yup, I'm certain that I dont have anywhere close to that much hull out of the water yet.

45171
08-01-2017, 01:35 PM
here's a late model 16 in flight

Man this is how I want to go past all of those ski boats that are everywhere on the lake where I live!!!

mattyboy
08-01-2017, 01:37 PM
once you get the right setup on yours you will find you can let it run


this one has a volvo speedmaster E drive on it and a warmed up Ford SB windsor

Morgan's Cloud
08-01-2017, 01:38 PM
here's a late model 16 in flight

Looks like it could benefit from a little port tab :kingme:

mattyboy
08-01-2017, 01:44 PM
Nice ride Mattboy- I really like the timeline that you have started. I personally appreciate anything that's older and classic/original and would've probably spent more time shopping for an original boat before buying this one if I knew then what I do now. This was one of those things that I had to have as soon as I saw it and glad that I went for it. Am I'm glad that I did!

I was hoping to see a picture of that factory installed head :toiletpap, that's one way to get around not having to find a way to climb back into it haha!

I've felt a little chine walk already when I've been alone in it with the tabs somewhat down going in the high 40's. I can only assume that it will get worse with higher speeds and less hull in the water.


no head on the 16 that's my new old boat the hornet that has the head

a good prop solves a lot it will stop porpoising or limit the speed ranges that it occurs will carry the boat at a level angle of attack not to much stern lift or bow lift not sure what the merc guys are running on the 16 Rootsy had his merc alpha ss drive setup running mid 70s you will know when you have the right prop the boat will become predictable

the 16 actually benefits from a little more wetted surface over the 18 or 22 makes the ride more stable

mattyboy
08-01-2017, 01:46 PM
Looks like it could benefit from a little port tab :kingme:

watching that driver in a 16 over the years has been a real pleasure he drives that thing like it was born a part of him

mattyboy
08-01-2017, 01:50 PM
the 16 will take alot more punishment than the passengers can handle that's why I am not in one anymore

a skilled passenger will assume the position facing fwd both hands on the front of the rail one leg knelt on the passenger bench seat the other foot on the floor

45171
08-01-2017, 08:59 PM
Regarding your prop, we need: engine, drive ratio, what make and pitch prop you now have, GPS MPH, and rpm you get and what you want.

More than other advice: SEAT TIME.

John C[/QUOTE

OK John here is what I'm running...


Mercruiser 5.7 estimated to have 400HP

Owners manual says the outdrive ratio is a 2.0

WOT was 49 MPH at 4,100 RPM

Current prop is a Ballistic 14 & 3/8 x 21

Spare prop is an Apollo HXS 14 & 1/8 x 19, the original owner replaced it because the RPM's were going to high.



I just want to find the most appropriate prop to make it as user friendly as possible for now. I can experiment with others as I get to know the boat better. That's my initial thought but I'm happy to listen to anyone else's experiences and can be persuaded :)

Lenny
08-02-2017, 12:54 AM
ratio is 1.5 ... unless wrong drive on the boat and it still wouldnt be 2.0... no such thing

Is the 5.7 " built " ? ... where did the 400 hp come from ?

:)

se7en
08-02-2017, 03:33 AM
I have to agree with Lenny's comment re drive ratio, I run a 1.81 and can swing a 23" Lazer at 4800 on a V6 with half your claimed horse power !!

mattyboy
08-02-2017, 08:04 AM
lenny is right on your setup if that 21 prop is at 10% slip is a 1.5 ratio

something is not right I am not a chevy or a merc guy but I would think a sbc would be fine spinning 4500 on a daily basis try the 19 and see what ya get so you have numbers to compare

running a 19 at 4500 with 10% slip should be around the same speed


again these numbers surprise me they are what an older volvo numbers look like the merc with trim and better hydrodynamics should be north of 50 easy

John C just repowered he has a modern lower unit he would be a good benchmark


as a comparision my 16 with 310hp a volvo 250 with a nose cone and 1.6 ratio ran around upto 60 at 5000 with no trim and no hydrodynamics

sounds like time you go thru everything

45171
08-02-2017, 09:01 AM
ratio is 1.5 ... unless wrong drive on the boat and it still wouldnt be 2.0... no such thing

Is the 5.7 " built " ? ... where did the 400 hp come from ?

:)

I have a lot to learn guys....

I am going to have to look into the outdrive ratio further to be certain, I questioned it after posting and learned very quickly that it should not be the correct ratio for a V8 boat.

The 5.7 is bored .30 and the person who built it estimated it to be at or close to 400HP. He built motors for hydroplane racing and said that he had built several and had enough experience to give an accurate estimate.

This is current as of 11/17/2016 ***ENGINE***




Trick Flow Aluminum Cylinder Heads
(Assembled With 2.02 and 1.60 Valves, New Springs, Retainers, Keepers, and Seals)
Scat Crankshaft Standard Weight Forged 4340 Steel Internal Balance
Scat Connecting Rods 4340
IBeam Sealed Power Hypereutectic Pistons and Rings
Chevrolet Performance 350 Magnum Marine Hydraulic Roller Tappet Camshaft
Comp Cams Magnum Steel Roller Tip Rocker Arms
Comp Cams Magnum Pushrods
Comp Cams High Energy Hydraulic Roller Lifters
Comp Cams Magnum Double Roller Timing Chain and Gear Set
Professional Products Steel Harmonic Balancer And Pointer
Chevrolet Performance Flex Plate
Chevrolet Performance High Volume Oil Pump
Weiand Action Plus High Volume Aluminum Water Pump
ARP High Performance Series 8740 Chromoly Steel Bolts Used Throughout
FelPro Gasket Kit
Edelbrock Performer Intake Manifold
Edelbrock Marine Carburetor (Installed)
QuadraJet Marine Carburetor (Spare)
K&N Flame Arrestor
New Custom San Juan Engineering Fresh Water Cooling System
EMI Thunder Polished Aluminum Exhaust System (AntiFreeze Cooled Manifolds)
New Fuel Pump
Braided Stainless Steel Fuel Lines
New Ignition Components With NGK Iridium Spark Plugs
Remote Oil Pump Out


Thank you for the time & help btw

Lenny
08-02-2017, 09:11 AM
21" pitch at 4100 with NO slip would indicate about 54 mph WOT with a 1.5. But, you are missing a thousand rpm, 4100 is like a high cruise. At 5000 rpm you would see 66 with NO slip.


Something is amiss.

45171
08-02-2017, 09:57 AM
21" pitch at 4100 with NO slip would indicate about 54 mph WOT with a 1.5. But, you are missing a thousand rpm, 4100 is like a high cruise. At 5000 rpm you would see 66 with NO slip.


Something is amiss.

What is "slip" and what else do you need to know from me?

mattyboy
08-02-2017, 10:00 AM
21" pitch at 4100 with NO slip would indicate about 54 mph WOT with a 1.5. But, you are missing a thousand rpm, 4100 is like a high cruise. At 5000 rpm you would see 66 with NO slip.


Something is amiss.

yes in a perfect world no slip using 10% slip is also a bit optimistic too :)


they don't have HD or a lower ratio on the alpha 1.47 is the lowest? the bravo has a 1.3 something right??

something is holding the motor back or other??????????????

John C in PA
08-02-2017, 12:36 PM
It looks like we're starting to get to the facts. Are you sure your tach is reading correctly? (During my Repowering the shop found mine was good up to a certain rpm, then went 1000 rpm low). Are you using gps for speed? I don't have a Merc drive but the reduction ratio may be stamped or noted on a tag.

Using your numbers, prop slip is an impossible -20%. At a 1.5 ratio, slip is a reasonable 10%. Is the engine unable to turn faster than 4100 rpm? Sound starved? Hiccups? Something is wrong with the numbers. You should get minimum high 50's with 400 hp and a 21" prop.

My oem 5.0 HO best ever, cool day, alone and half tank of fuel, was 59.8 GPS @ 4,850 rpm using a tweaked SST 21" prop. Best info I could find says I had 200 HP from that engine.

John C

45171
08-02-2017, 01:53 PM
It looks like we're starting to get to the facts. Are you sure your tach is reading correctly? (During my Repowering the shop found mine was good up to a certain rpm, then went 1000 rpm low). Are you using gps for speed? I don't have a Merc drive but the reduction ratio may be stamped or noted on a tag.

Using your numbers, prop slip is an impossible -20%. At a 1.5 ratio, slip is a reasonable 10%. Is the engine unable to turn faster than 4100 rpm? Sound starved? Hiccups? Something is wrong with the numbers. You should get minimum high 50's with 400 hp and a 21" prop.

My oem 5.0 HO best ever, cool day, alone and half tank of fuel, was 59.8 GPS @ 4,850 rpm using a tweaked SST 21" prop. Best info I could find says I had 200 HP from that engine.

John C

I am using the GPS for speed and feel like my tach is accurate.
Keep in mind that I had my trim all the way down, and the tabs were down some also. I did not trim it out to get to the top speed, I will though and post those numbers after I do.
I was on here looking for tips on trimming and tabbing to get to top speed safely so we're getting a little ahead for where I am currently.

I will say that I'm very excited to have so many people giving advice and helping me learn as I go.

John C in PA
08-02-2017, 02:32 PM
Here is what I did when I got my Sweet 16. I went out on a lake during the week (fewer jet skis to annoy you 😈). Tabs all the way up. Pick a comfortable cruising rpm. Run the drive slowly up and down watching the trim gauge, the tach, the speedo, and the angle of the bow to see the effect of the different trim positions. The effect of the drive angle to the water will be obvious in speed @ rpm.

Then, set the drive to midrange, set a cruising speed, run the tabs slowly up and down, check the tach, the gps, and the bow angle as above.

Once you you pretty much realize how these devices affect the performance and handling you can decide for yourself to use the tabs or not.

Good luck.

John C

John C in PA
08-02-2017, 02:44 PM
What is "slip" and what else do you need to know from me?

A prop is like a machine screw. In a solid substance a 21" pitch prop would advance 21" per revolution. However, water is not a solid substance and propulsion comes from the difference in pressure between the font and rear of the blades. So a 21" prop with 0% slip would provide 56 mph, but at a realistic 10% slip you can only achieve 50 mph.

The calcs aren't a be all, end all but rather a part of understanding the Black Magic of prop selection.

John C

mattyboy
08-02-2017, 08:40 PM
heres a prop calc

http://www.rbbi.com/folders/prop/propcalc.htm running your numbers at 1.47 4100 rpm 21 pitch 49 mph your at 11%

45171
08-02-2017, 08:51 PM
[QUOTE=John C in PA;668606]Here is what I did when I got my Sweet 16. I went out on a lake during the week (fewer jet skis to annoy you ). Tabs all the way up. Pick a comfortable cruising rpm. Run the drive slowly up and down watching the trim gauge, the tach, the speedo, and the angle of the bow to see the effect of the different trim positions. The effect of the drive angle to the water will be obvious in speed @ rpm.

Then, set the drive to midrange, set a cruising speed, run the tabs slowly up and down, check the tach, the gps, and the bow angle as above.

Once you you pretty much realize how these devices affect the performance and handling you can decide for yourself to use the tabs or not.

Good luck.

John C[/QUOTE

Great info again and again John! I tend to over think things and what you're telling is gonna help tremendously. This is sort of what I did, only adjusted the tabs and didn't touch the trim.

This brings up another question about turning. The lake I live on (Lake Waynoka OH 45171) isn't really wide and I've already been concerned about what will happen if I turn too sharp/fast. Is there any reason for me to be seriously concerned and slowing down to under 20MPH to make a turn or will this boat cut thru a 180 turn and keep cruising without any concern?

45171
08-02-2017, 08:59 PM
heres a prop calc

http://www.rbbi.com/folders/prop/propcalc.htm running your numbers at 1.47 4100 rpm 21 pitch 49 mph your at 11%

You have read my mind Sir thank you!

From what I've read here theres opportunity to get that 11% down some by being more efficient with the trim settings.

John C in PA
08-02-2017, 09:52 PM
[QUOTE=John C in PA;668606]This brings up another question about turning. The lake I live on (Lake Waynoka OH 45171) isn't really wide and I've already been concerned about what will happen if I turn too sharp/fast. Is there any reason for me to be seriously concerned and slowing down to under 20MPH to make a turn or will this boat cut thru a 180 turn and keep cruising without any concern?

Yep, too fast and too tight and you can roll the gunn'l into the drink. Remember: seat time is your friend :). And don't forget to lower the drive as you start the turn to keep the prop blades in the water.

John C

Lenny
08-02-2017, 11:42 PM
tuck your drive back in and pull up your tabs if theyre down.

You will learn to love biting hard and gunwhales down, and used to being on the low side ( as well as the high side ) while doing this.

From personal experience with a member here in TEXAS he used to throttle back from 65-70, down to 40's and lock the steering one way or the other and get off the throttle.

It was quite interesting but the boat didn't seem to care. We did that many many many times in Possum Kingdom Lake. It performed like a jet ski.

The boats seem to have more balls than the driver does IMO ..

:)

Drive down, tabs up in TURNS then reload and set it up again. ( or just don't use your tabs period )

Morgan's Cloud
08-03-2017, 06:50 AM
IMO the term 'drive down' should not be confused with 'drive in' . If you've been running with a fair degree of positive trim all you really need to do is just level the drive with the keel , at most .
Trimming to far in , especially if combined with suddenly chopping the throttle , will encourage a spin out .

mattyboy
08-03-2017, 08:39 AM
word to MC :yes:

it is not a step hull but trust me you don't want to bow steer and stick the nose especially with drive in/ trim down or tabs down.

you may ventilate or cavitate depending on the prop but leave the trim nuetral my 16 was set nuetral all the trim manually no tabs all the way up



I could do an about face turn at cruise speed in about 400 foot radius without staining the shorts

as John said seat time drive within what you feel comfortable

Morgan's Cloud
08-03-2017, 08:54 AM
word to MC :yes:

it is not a step hull but trust me you don't want to bow steer and stick the nose especially with drive in/ trim down or tabs down.





Aye , I thought about including the phrase 'even if this isn't a stepped hull ' but I figured that with the level of experience here many people would have experienced the pitfalls of executing a turn in a deep V hull that wasn't correctly trimmed in the right water conditions and the bow ended up catching.

45171
08-03-2017, 10:55 AM
IMO the term 'drive down' should not be confused with 'drive in' . If you've been running with a fair degree of positive trim all you really need to do is just level the drive with the keel , at most .
Trimming to far in , especially if combined with suddenly chopping the throttle , will encourage a spin out .

I don't get the difference in"drive down" & "drive in". Can you please go into a little more detail?

chip w
08-03-2017, 11:00 AM
Everyone has provided a lot of great info here. I agree, keep your tabs up. I only use mine to level the ride at lower speeds when I have an uneven load (read that as one of my heavier friends in the port side seat :)).

Regarding a rub rail in the water, that's pretty common with the 16 and 18 classics. You'll get used to it but some of your passengers may not.

86125

For sharper turns do what was recommended above, pull your trim on the outdrive in but don't over do it. I bring it in less than half way and haven't had an issue of blowing out the prop.

Morgan's Cloud
08-03-2017, 11:21 AM
I don't get the difference in"drive down" & "drive in". Can you please go into a little more detail?

Once upon a time the early Merc instrumentation trim indicator gauge had a designated area that showed 'negative trim' and had the word 'in' on it . That area on the gauge represented where the outdrive was past the level with the keel position and the propshaft was imitating the angle that a straight inboard shaft would look like . (although not quite as dramatic)

Essentially the outdrive goes through 4 different positions .
1) 'In' .. almost never used except to get a boat that's hard to plane up and going OR maybe certain weather conditions to keep the bow down ( but here I like to use neutral trim and use the tabs )
2) 'Level' or 'Neutral trim . Anti ventilation plate/propshaft level with the keel
3) 'Positive trim' for getting the bow up and more speed
4) 'Tilt' raising the drive all the way up for beaching or trailering .

To me , 'drive down' is any position that you can safely run the unit in that doesn't stress the U joints and can include the 'in' position but the 'in' position should never need to be used once the boat is over the hump and planing .

45171
08-03-2017, 03:32 PM
Once upon a time the early Merc instrumentation trim indicator gauge had a designated area that showed 'negative trim' and had the word 'in' on it . That area on the gauge represented where the outdrive was past the level with the keel position and the propshaft was imitating the angle that a straight inboard shaft would look like . (although not quite as dramatic)

Essentially the outdrive goes through 4 different positions .
1) 'In' .. almost never used except to get a boat that's hard to plane up and going OR maybe certain weather conditions to keep the bow down ( but here I like to use neutral trim and use the tabs )
2) 'Level' or 'Neutral trim . Anti ventilation plate/propshaft level with the keel
3) 'Positive trim' for getting the bow up and more speed
4) 'Tilt' raising the drive all the way up for beaching or trailering .

To me , 'drive down' is any position that you can safely run the unit in that doesn't stress the U joints and can include the 'in' position but the 'in' position should never need to be used once the boat is over the hump and planing .

Man....I've pretty much always driven with the trim all the way in/down unless I get into really shallow water or larger than normal waves.
I am going to have to search for info on how to be using the trim and learn what I thought that I already knew.

I found this gauge face picture that I was using to help follow what you are explaining. If I'm understanding correctly, where the blue meets the orange is what would be considered neutral, and this is the position that is going to be the most efficient to run.

Is this also true for pretty much any boat in normal conditions?
And is the orange area where the u-joints start to have problems?
Are the black dots representing anything specific or just there to help reference the position so it's easier to return to it later?

My apologizes of it's too small to view clearly, I found it on eBay and could get a larger image.

86129

Morgan's Cloud
08-03-2017, 05:25 PM
When it comes to gauges and what they're supposed to represent there aren't too many I trust.
The best thing for you to do is put the boat on a trailer (or blocks ) and energize the trim gauge and see what it's showing when the drive is level with the keel . Maybe even mark the gauge with a dot with it showing that position . That way you'll know where true level is.

But to be perfectly blunt any serious boat driver rarely looks at the trim gauge anyway as they drive by feel and I can assure you that any of them will know the difference between negative trim , neutral trim and positive trim .

If you've been operating all this time with the drive trimmed all the way in you've got a bit of catching up to do . Didn't anyone ask you why your boat was always running bow down ?

mattyboy
08-03-2017, 08:21 PM
you can turn hard at cruise speed no problem 24 degree rounded keel

mattyboy
08-03-2017, 08:23 PM
once you figure the trim out the ride angle should look something like this

45171
08-04-2017, 08:24 AM
When it comes to gauges and what they're supposed to represent there aren't too many I trust.
The best thing for you to do is put the boat on a trailer (or blocks ) and energize the trim gauge and see what it's showing when the drive is level with the keel . Maybe even mark the gauge with a dot with it showing that position . That way you'll know where true level is.

But to be perfectly blunt any serious boat driver rarely looks at the trim gauge anyway as they drive by feel and I can assure you that any of them will know the difference between negative trim , neutral trim and positive trim .

If you've been operating all this time with the drive trimmed all the way in you've got a bit of catching up to do . Didn't anyone ask you why your boat was always running bow down ?

Nope no one has ever mentioned riding with the bow down to me, but I haven't driven the 16 but a few times on the lake where I live and that mostly been fooling with the tabs, turning and hitting waves to see how it reacts.

It's my deck boat that I've driven for years with the trim all the way in. But our lake is pretty small and there probably aren't a whole lot of boaters that are experienced in these subjects as you guys. It's mostly fishing, wake & ski boats and pontoons where I live.

Another reason why this forum and being able to ask guys like you all questions is a huge asset for people like me :)

Morgan's Cloud
08-04-2017, 09:02 AM
Your best bet is to just leave the tabs alone (all the way up) unless you need to drag one a 1/2" or so to correct a beam list due to uneven weight distribution.

Concentrate on having fun exploring the drive trim for the time being .. only takes about 15 minutes to figure out what it does anyway . Then you'll know when and if you need tab . BTW , it's a good idea not to have tabs deployed in turns .

45171
08-04-2017, 09:24 PM
Went out after work tonight so check out what I've learned about trim. Average wind speed was 7 MPH and the lake was just a little choppy. Before I put in I checked to see where the trim gauge was pointing with the out drive raised till it was even with the keel on the boat. I was surprised to see that the gauge was pointing to the far right almost pegged to the point where it cant go any further right. This had me thinking that I was already learning more than I knew about the trim.

Started out going about 20 MPH with the trim all the way in, down, what ever means that it is at it's lowest point below the hull and no tabs engaged. It began pourposing when the speed was steady so I began to raise the out drive one short bump of the button at a time. This made the pourposing worse, and continued to do so with every bump up of the out drive.

After I had it raised maybe a quarter of the way on the trim gauge it sounded like the prop was splashing on top of the water or something. I started over and tried driving further between each bump of the trim button but it never did stop pourposing traveling at a steady speed of about 20.

Does this sound like a potential prop issue? I know the conditions probably weren't the most ideal but with the out drive all the way down and a little bit of trim tabs it was smooth and steady at all speeds.

PS - I got caught on the ramp for the first time by some people who just couldn't get over that little boat, they had lots of interest and enthusiasm. It was almost like we were all kids again and the only thing that mattered at that point in time was we just discovered something brand new and really cool to us all.

John C in PA
08-04-2017, 10:25 PM
Generally, proposing can be minimized or eliminated by use to the trim and/or tabs. Severe proposing (that you can't eliminate) could be water conditions (maybe), hull design (nope), too much weight toward the stern (maybe), or running a bow lifting prop.

John C

mattyboy
08-05-2017, 07:43 AM
The prop has a lot to do with the porpoising cycle ( bow lift gets the nose high and can't hold it there nose falls prop builds bow lift cycle repeats) all props will do it at certain speed ranges

The first prop that came with my boat would do it from on plane speeds to about 30 mph with no trim or tabs. When i found the right prop that range dropped to about 20 to 25 mph you need to find a merc style prop that carries the boat not to much bow lift or to much stern lift. But regardless at certain speeds its going to do it
Years ago I took the 16 to ACBS show with all the woodies at the close of the show they had a parade around the shoreline of my lake. They took off and as a woody will do at like 10 mph just plow along with a bit of nose up i push the tabs all the way down and plowed along with them until the nose started to have lake wash breaking down the deck. I then introduced them to the fly by.  just remember with the trim and tabs down at speed turning can be an issue or slop can get ya a bit wet


Think of it this way its a race horse it doesnt like being hitched to a wagon , Plowing the back 40 , walking, a slow trot NO

it wants to run


Try your tests at 30 or 35 mph and see how she reacts

45171
08-05-2017, 08:08 AM
We're having a boat poker run here today but I will try more again tomorrow and at different speeds. I can also switch props if I feel confident that I've done all I can with the current prop.

I think there's a chance that I may need to go to a bigger body of water to get the space I need to get it all ironed out completely. We only have a no wake zone about 1 mile long here so there's a lot of turning and getting back on plane going on for me.

Enjoy your Saturday!

John C in PA
08-05-2017, 09:17 AM
BTW, what brand, model, and pitch do you have?

FYI, my '92 Sweet 16 came with a 23" Viper. Best was ~53 mph @ I think around 4400 rpm. However, the chine walk was awful. I replaced it with a stock OMC SST 21" prop which gave me 57 mph @ 4600 RPM and no chine walk. I had this one tuned by John at DAH Props (who designed the SST) and improved to 59 mph @ 4850 rpm. After the Repowering this prop gave me 61.3 mph @ 5250 rpm.

Today I have a stock 23" SST which (roughly) gives me 63 mph @ 4850 rpm. Over the winter I'll have DAH tweak it.

John C

yeller
08-05-2017, 12:18 PM
I haven't read this entire thread, so I may be repeating what has already been said or done.

These boats can be a handful when first starting out. I went through the same pain you are when I first got mine. You're far from the only one that has struggled with the learning curve. I boated for 18yrs with a Donzi Classic 16 (copy), but it was a jet drive and an absolutely perfect riding boat from day one. Couldn't have been an easier boat to drive. Then I bought a 22C and my first outdrive boat. Holy bouncing boats, batman! After 18yrs of boating, I was a novice again.

Morgan had some good advice, but I guess I'm still not a "serious boater" because I still look at my gauges. Maybe someday......but for now I still use the drive trim gauge every time I go out. I do have to disagree with MC in that, I believe a serious boater will drive by feel and look at their gauges. The best advice I got when I first got my boat was to mark "level" on the trim gauge. If you just eyeballed "level", you could easily be off. Adjust the trailer tongue height until the very bottom of the boat (at the transom end) is level, checking with a level. Then put the level of the cavitation plate of the drive and adjust the drive until it is level. Now mark your gauge. I have a piece of foil tape on mine. It's been there for years and I still use it every single time I go out. To get on plane, I put my tabs all the way down and pull my drive in (down). As I start to get on plane, I'll raise the drive and simultaneously pull the tabs up a bit at a time to help it get on plane. Having the tabs all the way down can actually cause the boat to take longer to get on plane. You definitely have to experiment as to what works best for your boat. Once fully on plane, I'll continue to bring the drive and tabs up a bit at a time as the boat stabilizes. Once I get the drive to "level", I'll leave it there and play with the tabs to control the porposing. Generally for cruising around, I leave the drive at a known amount above the level mark and adjust the tabs. I generally only pull the drive up past that known amount when going for max speed. I pull my tabs up as high as I can and still maintain a "stable" feel.

That's just a general outline of what I do. The drive of course, does get lowered and raised, depending on conditions. This isn't a recommendation of what to do, but it is what works for me and my boat. Others will disagree, because they have a style that works for them and their boat.

Oh, btw, the "lean" in a turn is the where you can have the most fun with these boats. It won't roll completely over, but sure feels like it might. It's great for freaking out your friends. :biggrin.:

yeller
08-05-2017, 12:28 PM
As I said, you're not the first....

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?44610-1st-ride-in-the-new-22C&highlight=

John C in PA
08-05-2017, 03:09 PM
Oh, btw, the "lean" in a turn is the where you can have the most fun with these boats. It won't roll completely over, but sure feels like it might. It's great for freaking out your friends. :biggrin.:

Its also the way for the wife to announce that she will never, ever go out in your Donzi again ☹️☹️.

John C

Morgan's Cloud
08-05-2017, 06:08 PM
I do have to disagree with MC in that, I believe a serious boater will drive by feel and look at their gauges.

Just to clarify what I do .
Evaluate conditions , set course , watch the horizon and the bow of the boat , gas it !
Adjust throttle , trim and if needed , tabs to suit the conditions and speed . You can tell when you're right without even referring to the gauges. The boat tells me .

Wherever the gauges happen to be is what it is but I never say 'things are great but I don't like where that needle is on the trim gauge , or the indicators for the tabs.'
Besides , a slight change of course and you're re-adjusting things anyway to compensate for waves and a beam wind .
Hey , I just remembered .. When I re-rigged the St T I told the engine installer to leave the trim gauge out . Only something else to go wrong and break down anyway .
The Mag does have one though and it's now on the fritz .

mattyboy
08-06-2017, 09:40 AM
ya the guy in the back seat said never again too

yeller
08-06-2017, 12:53 PM
Its also the way for the wife to announce that she will never, ever go out in your Donzi again ☹️☹️.
John CWell, for some, that may be a good thing. :biggrin.:


Just to clarify what I do .
Evaluate conditions , set course , watch the horizon and the bow of the boat , gas it !
Adjust throttle , trim and if needed , tabs to suit the conditions and speed . You can tell when you're right without even referring to the gauges. The boat tells me .

Wherever the gauges happen to be is what it is but I never say 'things are great but I don't like where that needle is on the trim gauge , or the indicators for the tabs.'
Besides , a slight change of course and you're re-adjusting things anyway to compensate for waves and a beam wind .
Hey , I just remembered .. When I re-rigged the St T I told the engine installer to leave the trim gauge out . Only something else to go wrong and break down anyway .
The Mag does have one though and it's now on the fritz .Fully understand and agree with everything you say MC. It's just that I use my gauge every time because I know where the sweet spot is on the gauge and I can set the drive there and let the boat "catch up" to the drive position. That's immediately after getting on plane. The gauge helps me settle the boat on plane faster than doing it by feel. After that I will adjust by feel, but I find the gauge also prevents me from cruising with the drive a bit to high or low. By knowing where "level" is, I have a reference point of what "generally" works best. For my boat/drive, it's a known amount above level. And when going for top speed I know where on the gauge I will no longer see any increase, so I don't have to try and "find" the best position.


Matty: I've had friends it that same position. I love that pic.

John C in PA
08-06-2017, 07:45 PM
So hopefully the OP is still hanging on to our suggestions as we get into personal preferences :nilly:. With regard to trim and tab settings, I think we can agree that some of us use the indicators and some of us don't.

In this case, I suggest the OP continue to use both the gauges and seat of his pants to learn the ropes.

John C

45171
08-06-2017, 11:24 PM
ya the guy in the back seat said never again too

This is awesome!!! How can I do that LOL.
I showed it to the fiance and she said oh no, I wouldn't like that unless it was on a jet ski haha.

45171
08-07-2017, 11:42 AM
I haven't read this entire thread, so I may be repeating what has already been said or done.

These boats can be a handful when first starting out. I went through the same pain you are when I first got mine. You're far from the only one that has struggled with the learning curve. I boated for 18yrs with a Donzi Classic 16 (copy), but it was a jet drive and an absolutely perfect riding boat from day one. Couldn't have been an easier boat to drive. Then I bought a 22C and my first outdrive boat. Holy bouncing boats, batman! After 18yrs of boating, I was a novice again.

Morgan had some good advice, but I guess I'm still not a "serious boater" because I still look at my gauges. Maybe someday......but for now I still use the drive trim gauge every time I go out. I do have to disagree with MC in that, I believe a serious boater will drive by feel and look at their gauges. The best advice I got when I first got my boat was to mark "level" on the trim gauge. If you just eyeballed "level", you could easily be off. Adjust the trailer tongue height until the very bottom of the boat (at the transom end) is level, checking with a level. Then put the level of the cavitation plate of the drive and adjust the drive until it is level. Now mark your gauge. I have a piece of foil tape on mine. It's been there for years and I still use it every single time I go out. To get on plane, I put my tabs all the way down and pull my drive in (down). As I start to get on plane, I'll raise the drive and simultaneously pull the tabs up a bit at a time to help it get on plane. Having the tabs all the way down can actually cause the boat to take longer to get on plane. You definitely have to experiment as to what works best for your boat. Once fully on plane, I'll continue to bring the drive and tabs up a bit at a time as the boat stabilizes. Once I get the drive to "level", I'll leave it there and play with the tabs to control the porposing. Generally for cruising around, I leave the drive at a known amount above the level mark and adjust the tabs. I generally only pull the drive up past that known amount when going for max speed. I pull my tabs up as high as I can and still maintain a "stable" feel.

That's just a general outline of what I do. The drive of course, does get lowered and raised, depending on conditions. This isn't a recommendation of what to do, but it is what works for me and my boat. Others will disagree, because they have a style that works for them and their boat.

Oh, btw, the "lean" in a turn is the where you can have the most fun with these boats. It won't roll completely over, but sure feels like it might. It's great for freaking out your friends. :biggrin.:

This is good info for me. I tend to do better with learning when I can follow specific directions. I didn't consider actually using a level until you mentioned it, which immediately showed me how far off I was. I'm also gonna use a mirror to watch how much the outdrive and trims tabs physically move with each adjustment because I feel like that may help me visualize how it all relates to the conditions.

I'll report back once I get back on the water and work on a few of these tips guys.

Thank you for all the input/help!!