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woobs
04-07-2017, 09:34 PM
For my SBF build, I plan on using fuel injection for the induction. I also plan on using a set of aluminum HM exhaust manifolds (pic). The fuel Injection closed loop system requires an O2 sensor in the system. The vintage HM exhaust manifolds are fully water jacketed and have no provision that can be used as an O2 bung for the sensor. The plugs seen in the pic are for draining the water jacket only. O2 sensors do not react well with moisture so, I need a "dry" location to install it therefore, downstream of the manifold will not work.

Questions: Can a bung for an O2 sensor be installed through the water jacket and exhaust wall and be sealed to prevent leakage for both exhaust and water?

If so, how?

gcarter
04-07-2017, 10:11 PM
I don't think you can install an O2 sensor in a log like that.
I think you could do better w/an aluminum center riser.
And a good welder.......

Morgan's Cloud
04-08-2017, 09:29 AM
Now that you mention it I've been thinking about something similar for a while .
One day , when I hit the lottery , I want to get a set of Hi-Teks for the Volvo in the St T . It already has O2 sensors installed on the cast iron risers and if and when the time should come I'd like to know if Alan can make manifolds that can incorporate them .

And on a slightly different note .
I recently looked over a new ski boat that had a catalyzed engine in it . I can't remember the make but it wasn't any of the more common names . I believe it was a 377 of some sort . Visually it was very impressive , but when the time comes that this will be the only thing available to the boating public , there won't be anything we'll be able to do to the engines afterwards.

woobs
04-08-2017, 12:55 PM
This is a little more difficult as it is an aluminum manifold. Nevertheless, I have researched and found three possible solutions.

1) Drill a 1.5" hole through the outer water jacket wall. Then using build-up welds seal the space between the outer and inner walls to seal the water passage. Drill and tap the inner manifold wall to accept O2 sensor.

2) Drill through both walls of the water jacket. Tap inner hole and install brass adaptor which seals the outside with an "O" ring. (this solution requires a flat surface on the exterior)

3) Fabricate a 1" spacer which is made with provision for the O2 sensor and install between the log and elbow.

I'm kind of partial to #3. In this way I can mount the O2 sensor in the best place to avoid moisture collection. Also, it is the least invasive and I don't risk ruining the manifold. Although I'm not sure if I would need spacers on both sides (using just 1 sensor) to keep exhaust length even.

Thoughts?

Morgan's Cloud
04-08-2017, 01:22 PM
Have to admit that if I was in your shoes I like number 3 the best as well .
Presumably that spacer would also have to be made to allow water flow through ?
Can you get away with only one sensor ? I've got one on each exhaust elbow .

gcarter
04-08-2017, 07:09 PM
I sure don't like brass and aluminum together.....makes a nice battery!!
I would think stainless would be a better solution.
Actually, I was thinking of the collector area near the top of the manifold,
I believe it would be drier and closer to the source of exhaust.
Concerning the number of sonds needed, how many are included in your proposed setup?

penbroke
04-08-2017, 09:50 PM
Even before I read it I was thinking number three as well...


Frank

woobs
04-09-2017, 12:18 AM
I sure don't like brass and aluminum together.....makes a nice battery!!
I would think stainless would be a better solution.
Actually, I was thinking of the collector area near the top of the manifold,
I believe it would be drier and closer to the source of exhaust.
Concerning the number of sonds needed, how many are included in your proposed setup?

Manufacturer says I only need one. I think I like the spacer idea (#3) best.
I was originally inquiring about an open loop system ... their "expert" spent quite some time with me on the phone and edumacated me :)
The system pictured below is marine compatible (with a marine fuel pump)

BUIZILLA
04-09-2017, 08:25 AM
look into a closed loop EFI system, as cool as marine engines run I don't see a need to run open loop...

most if not all open loop systems stay in closed loop until 145-160* anyways

just my .03c

woobs
04-09-2017, 12:27 PM
look into a closed loop EFI system, as cool as marine engines run I don't see a need to run open loop...most if not all open loop systems stay in closed loop until 145-160* anywaysjust my .03c

Clearly, because I'm looking for O2 sensor solutions we're talking closed loop. Open loop (without an O2 sensor) is common on motorcycles and early marine FI applications but, relies on ECU programming and preset fuel / timing settings. Many closed loop systems run at open loop settings when at WOT to ensure a safe fuel map to protect the motor and as you mentioned, during warm-up.

The FI manufacturers rep convinced me that while open loop systems will work, they just don't run as well or, produce all the benefits the system is capable of in terms of performance or economy. In short... it's an efficiency thing. Further, recent O2 sensor technology (last 3-4 years) has produced at least two choices of marine designed sensors that are less sensitive to moisture (They still can't be in the water stream though) and tout greater durability.

As far as running engine temps, yes marine applications run cooler than automotive. However, this can also be addressed. I am undecided about running a closed cooling system (or 1/2 system) that can be set to run at a warmer temperature that is also a more consistent temperature (less fluctuation). But, this is down the road and I haven't really started researching this yet.

yeller
04-10-2017, 12:44 PM
#3 was the solution I had planned for my setup. I've since changed my mind, but for your setup, it's definitely the way I would go.
As far as using an 02 sensor; it doesn't have to be permanent. A lot of guys will use it to tune, then run open loop.

If you want to run permanently, then I'd strongly consider using a shield/extender:
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16148&cat=250&page=2




I sure don't like brass and aluminum together.....makes a nice battery!!
+ 1000!
I mated a brass and aluminum fitting for my cooler and within a couple hours of boating the amount of corrosion was shocking.



FYI.....love, love, love the look of that injection system!

yeller
04-10-2017, 03:58 PM
I was originally inquiring about an open loop system ... their "expert" spent quite some time with me on the phone and edumacated me :)

Keep in mind that pretty much all Merc, Volvo, and others don't use 02 sensors on their efi motors.
Perhaps the newer ones do....that I don't know, but there has to be zillions of efi's out there without 02.

I'm installing a pair more for curiosity. I have the inputs available on my ecu, so I'm putting them. I know they will definitely help with the tuning and will get used, but they aren't necessary for everyday use.

BUIZILLA
04-10-2017, 06:43 PM
if you use that system above, you'll need the ego sensors...

your void of mass air, or speed density flow meters

LOVE LOVE LOVE the stacks, it's retro 1966 all over again

gcarter
04-10-2017, 06:51 PM
It might have horrendous "tip in" characteristics.
It does look cool though, like down draft Webers!

woobs
04-10-2017, 09:48 PM
Yeller... good tips, for sure!

Buiz it's all about the looks :). Retro (and something different) is what we're after. I have to admit I'm a neophyte when it comes to all this electronic injection (even my 911 had mechanical injection) so, keep the comments comin' that's how I learn.

George... I don't use the word "tip" when I talk about boats LOL.

yeller
04-13-2017, 12:33 PM
FYI: To run that intake (or any intake) in open loop, speed density, you'll only need a MAP and Throttle Position sensor. Both of which are easily added.

yeller
04-13-2017, 01:16 PM
Woobs, I'm not an expert on this subject by any stretch of the imagination, but I have been doing some research on it in the last year, because of my current build. Regardless of whether you decide to go open or closed loop, it's going to have to be tuned with an o2. You could tune it on the dyno using their o2's, drop it in the boat and forget about it. That's one way, and a very common way of doing it.
Your other option is (with or without the dyno tune), tune it on the water. This could involve actually tuning it while on the water, or running data logs under specific situations and tweaking it later, based on the logs. This of course, will require o2's. You can run the o2's only for tuning, or leave them in permanently.
It seems to me, most guys are running the o2's only for tuning, because they end up killing the sensor if left in. At the same time, there are some guys that are running them full time, but they are in the minority. There's a guy on OSO, (I think it's Wasted Income) that was regularly killing his sensors until he installed the shield/extender, I posted. I think he said he was changing the sensor every couple months and once he put the shield in, (and when he posted) he had 3 yrs on the current sensor.

IMO, because you'd be getting that intake (which looks expensive) and have to get an ecu....and then have to tune the motor, I'd forego the "dyno only" tune and plan to use o2's. The extra expense is minimal; comparably. The spacer plates you need to make for your logs, are relatively easy and cheap to fabricate and the sensors themselves are $50 ~ $100 each. Then you have the option to finalize the tune on the water under real-world conditions. You can decide to run open or closed loop after your happy with how it's running.

That is my unsolicited, uneducated, opinion. :)

yeller
04-17-2017, 03:27 AM
FYI: To run that intake (or any intake) in open loop, speed density, you'll only need a MAP and Throttle Position sensor. Both of which are easily added.Just realized I commented without really considering the true construction of that intake you posted. Not sure if that manifold has a common plenum. If it doesn't, you wouldn't be able to use a MAP sensor.

woobs
04-17-2017, 07:59 AM
Just realized I commented without really considering the true construction of that intake you posted. Not sure if that manifold has a common plenum. If it doesn't, you wouldn't be able to use a MAP sensor.

You raise good points Yeller.....
I'm an FI neophyte so, I naively trust that solutions exist :) (people that design these systems are way smarter than me). In this case, apparently, this system uses both a MAP sensor and has a TPS included. The manufacturer phoned me (has phoned me 3 times to discuss things) to tell me there is a common plenum in the structure of the manifold.
I think the bung extender is a great idea for some added protection.

yeller
04-17-2017, 04:03 PM
I'm a neophyte to efi also. My boat has been efi for years, but I've never had to actually do anything with it before.

Here's a short thread that might help you make up your mind. No real good info. Don't expect much. Just someone considering going carb to efi.
http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/general-q/345992-ls-speed-density.html

Have you already bought the intake?

woobs
04-17-2017, 11:52 PM
No, I haven't bought anything yet. (that intake system is $4000!) I'm so far away from really doing the drive train as first I have the entire hull to restore. I'm not rushing. This summer I plan to have the inside of the hull complete. I have been pulling apart the engines I have to keep the project moving forward in the cold but, soon I'll be glassing and mechanical stuff will be on the shelf.

This Formula Jr. will be my personal toy. She is going to be a "benchseat" inspired by a cross of the early Cowes/Torquay offshore racers built based on the Wynn Mill II and the woody Gentleman's racers. I have a nice 18' woody for regular use to take the wife & friends out for a ride on the lakes and it's been to the ACBS shows too. I would say it is nothing "stunning" but, it's clean, comfortable, reliable, rides nice and is easy to drive. She will still do just over 50mph with 4 passengers. I love the boat but, it's not real exciting. If I replaced it... it would be with a Donzi 22.

As a 2nd boat, the Formula Jr. will truly be a "hot rod". This boat is all about the looks and the stack injection just looks so cool! I was inspired by a guy that marinized a Jaguar V12 (for his woody) and built his own stack FI system, not to mention his own wet exhaust manifolds. Stacks just jump out as not many boats have them. I would have loved to built a V12 but, it's just too costly for not much power (300 HP). The V8 systems are all off the shelf... sort of.

Also, at my age I don't know how many projects I have left so, this one will be taking quite some time and I have time to research everything over and again. This boat should be different, a fibreglass eye catcher at the wood dominated ACBS show... and be sturdy enough to go wave pounding ...while at the same time be just plain fun to drive. Top speed is not my concern but, I'll be aiming for 70's. Money is an issue however, spread across the years of the project I'll be able to swing it without compromising any features I want. I will be upside down at the end of it :) but, it's the boat I want to build.

yeller
04-27-2017, 01:09 PM
$4k is nothing........................................... .................................when it's someone else's money.....so I say go for it! :biggrin.:


I will be upside down at the end of it :) but, it's the boat I want to build.
It's a boat. I was upside down in mine the day I pulled the original motor.

I completely understand the obsession. It's the build process and doing it yourself that makes the boat that much more enjoyable to run.

gcarter
04-27-2017, 07:22 PM
I completely understand the obsession. It's the build process and doing it yourself that makes the boat that much more enjoyable to run.

Yeah, I agree 100%.
The restoration was enjoyable.....it would have been more enjoyable
if there hadn't been a recession in the middle of it! :frown:
At my age though (72), I think I'm ready to move on and I'll probably
offer the 22C Testa Rossa for sale soon.

woobs
04-27-2017, 11:09 PM
I think I'm ready to move on and I'll probably
offer the 22C Testa Rossa for sale soon.

How about a trade for a nice woody :)
85900

gcarter
04-28-2017, 10:04 AM
How about a trade for a nice woody :)
85900

LOL...good one!
I'm thinking that the next project will be to build something on two wheels.....

CHACHI
04-28-2017, 12:23 PM
George you need a Vincent!

Ken

gcarter
04-28-2017, 05:03 PM
​Yes I Do!!!