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KrausMotorSports
03-30-2017, 09:34 PM
Nearing this season i'm falling short on my 454 build from over the winter for my 22 Classic. My current engine is designed to run a dry exhaust system. New cost for lightning headers is around $4200 and Stainless Marine around the same maybe more. So i'm left with two options. My options are a Carb to oil pan Merc 260hp 350 from my 87 Sunbird beater boat and hours unknown (considering I found the gas tanks leaks over the winter) not sure if it's worth fixing. The 350 runs strong, no knocks nothing weird or that sort of thing. My second option is a 270 hour Drop in ready Merc 454 Gen VI 330hp untouched from a friends Velocity (1997). Looking for input on reason I should do one or the other. This is my first Donzi so I'm looking for input as to what i'll be happier with throughout this season.
-Part the Sunbird out use the 350….Sell the Alpha and parts
-Sell the Sunbird and go with the 454….. Shooting for same price as the "friend" offer.
-sell the Donzi and be a hermit over the summer (not an option)
My 22 Classic is a Bravo setup…..
This would just be a temporary setup until next year.

f_inscreenname
03-30-2017, 10:19 PM
A 22 will never be happy with a small block.

dbleil89
03-31-2017, 07:21 AM
I ran am 350 mag in my 22 for a couple of seasons. The boat handles and rode very well. With the mag mine would still run 60mph and would cruise at 35-40 mph with out using much gas. I would go with the small block just to get it running and get some seat time

woobs
03-31-2017, 08:38 AM
Well, this kind of advice is worth what you pay for it...... I'll assume your mattress' at home are not spilling over with cash as stuffing but, you do have some resources to invest in boating.

I'd transplant the SBC from the Sunbird into the Donzi and sell off the extra parts/get then rid of the hulk. This is the least cash layout if you do the labour yourself and will help you focus on one boat. In fact, this course of action may even generate the start of your "Donzi Improvement Fund". In this scenario, you get some real hands on experience with your Donzi as to rigging & layout. Further, you get to know your particular boat really well so you can identify any other potential issues and plan to rectify them. Lastly, while you will not need to change your diapers while driving your 22 in this "SBC condition" you will get seat time to get to know her and the bonus of being on the water in short order this season.

Make sure you start your DIF immediately and contribute regularly (and generously). You can then plan for, and concurrently build the monster lump to end all lumps and propel you to speeds well past your comfort zone and abilities (It just cost money) and have the C22 you dream about instead of what circumstances stuck you with.

Happy boating :) :wrench::wrench::wrench::wrench::wrench::wrench::w rench: :bonk::drunk:

HallJ
03-31-2017, 08:50 AM
Stainless Marine exhaust is $2000
LS would do nicely in that boat.
Phil did a 383, does anyone know how much power it made?

Jeff

KrausMotorSports
03-31-2017, 09:53 AM
Well, this kind of advice is worth what you pay for it...... I'll assume your mattress' at home are not spilling over with cash as stuffing but, you do have some resources to invest in boating.

I'd transplant the SBC from the Sunbird into the Donzi and sell off the extra parts/get then rid of the hulk. This is the least cash layout if you do the labour yourself and will help you focus on one boat. In fact, this course of action may even generate the start of your "Donzi Improvement Fund". In this scenario, you get some real hands on experience with your Donzi as to rigging & layout. Further, you get to know your particular boat really well so you can identify any other potential issues and plan to rectify them. Lastly, while you will not need to change your diapers while driving your 22 in this "SBC condition" you will get seat time to get to know her and the bonus of being on the water in short order this season.

Make sure you start your DIF immediately and contribute regularly (and generously). You can then plan for, and concurrently build the monster lump to end all lumps and propel you to speeds well past your comfort zone and abilities (It just cost money) and have the C22 you dream about instead of what circumstances stuck you with.

Happy boating :) :wrench::wrench::wrench::wrench::wrench::wrench::w rench: :bonk::drunk:
Woobs,
I couldn't have asked for a better response. Boat needs some cleaning up and this is the cheapest way out. I'll enjoy it and won't cost me as much. I have had some other faster setups with scarabs and IMP's in the 600hp range. But you are absolutely right on the mattress! I cut it open and now I need a new mattress. Haha! Thanks for the advice. My friends that know me locally know I like being up front. Maybe not this year. But I needed to hear this.... Thank you!

KrausMotorSports
03-31-2017, 10:01 AM
Stainless Marine exhaust is $2000
LS would do nicely in that boat.
Phil did a 383, does anyone know how much power it made?

Jeff

Due to my cam specs it was going to be a dry setup and since my Classic was originally a small block/Bravo boat I would have to cut the holes at 4.5" anyway to match the 454. It would be close. Small block is 24" center and big block is slightly wider at I believe 27/28 from Lightning marine.
As far as exhaust I was just comparing new prices. Trust me I had a pair of Stellings for my IMP that are dry I considered making work but in the end I still need tails since my stelling are for a TRS but I didn't want to wait around for a used set going up for sale.
-LS was also another option. I do have a spare Lq9 6.0 that would be great but that's also very pricey for accessories/ exhaust. Maybe later down the road. Or the 454 gen VI I'm sure fly building. Which is around the 500hp mark.

gcarter
03-31-2017, 11:39 AM
I vote for the SBC!
There have been many over the years and no one complained other
than they couldn't go much over 60. Of course early 22's w/ 454 310 HP
couldn't either.

My dream for a 22 would be a 454 LSX, say 500 HP w/SBC architecture.

KrausMotorSports
03-31-2017, 11:49 AM
I vote for the SBC!
There have been many over the years and no one complained other
than they couldn't go much over 60. Of course early 22's w/ 454 310 HP
couldn't either.

My dream for a 22 would be a 454 LSX, say 500 HP w/SBC architecture.


That would be great! Now I'm a motor head through and through. Never biased on brand but many don't like the LS because the lack of torque. As light as these donzi are and they were never designed to run at 70+ all the time. I'd say a LSX 454 would be the best of both worlds.

yeller
03-31-2017, 01:02 PM
I do have a spare Lq9 6.0 that would be great but that's also very pricey for accessories/ exhaust. I can't whole heartedly recommend Marine Power, because I've been waiting over 5 months for my exhaust, but their aluminum manifolds are no more expensive the SBC/BBC ones. You can get LS headers for the same price as you will spend on the Lightnings for your BBC.
As far as accessories, they don't have to be expensive. The flywheel was under $100, motor mount adapters can be had for under $50. You could put a carb on it if you don't want to deal with the cost of efi/computer. I'm using the alternator off my 502, power steering pump off a Chevy Trailblazer, steering reservoir off my 496HO and idler pulleys from a Dodge P/U.

Except for the cost of the computer, what it's costing me to do my LS is no more expensive than if I was doing a SBC or BBC..........and if I needed a computer for the SBC/BBC, then there is hardly any difference in cost.

The LS isn't any more expensive than other builds, it's just that they still seem to be relatively unknown in the boating world, even though the engines been around for 20yrs now.


.......but if you can get up and running with the SBC for this year, then that's what I'd do.............................well............... it's not really what I would do, but it is the smart thing do. :biggrin.:

woobs
03-31-2017, 01:22 PM
My dream for a 22 would be a 454 LSX, say 500 HP w/SBC architecture.

Well.... if we are dreaming I'd vote for the Ilmor MV10! (Unfortunately they are discontinued) or maybe a marine version of that Falconer V12 :p

KrausMotorSports
03-31-2017, 02:04 PM
I can't whole heartedly recommend Marine Power, because I've been waiting over 5 months for my exhaust, but their aluminum manifolds are no more expensive the SBC/BBC ones. You can get LS headers for the same price as you will spend on the Lightnings for your BBC.
As far as accessories, they don't have to be expensive. The flywheel was under $100, motor mount adapters can be had for under $50. You could put a carb on it if you don't want to deal with the cost of efi/computer. I'm using the alternator off my 502, power steering pump off a Chevy Trailblazer, steering reservoir off my 496HO and idler pulleys from a Dodge P/U.

Except for the cost of the computer, what it's costing me to do my LS is no more expensive than if I was doing a SBC or BBC..........and if I needed a computer for the SBC/BBC, then there is hardly any difference in cost.

The LS isn't any more expensive than other builds, it's just that they still seem to be relatively unknown in the boating world, even though the engines been around for 20yrs now.


.......but if you can get up and running with the SBC for this year, then that's what I'd do.............................well............... it's not really what I would do, but it is the smart thing do. :biggrin.:


Woob: Also the Ilmors just showed it's head in the auto industry. There is a Jay Leno episode of a 68 Dodge Charger with a dual over head cam marine engine.

Yeller: Let me explain I am actively in the Ford Mod motor/ LS truck and cobra/mustang world with forums and such. Not many "land lock" auto enthusiast people know the marine industry at all. But to build a nice mod motor or LS you will spend 10k-15k. The Ilmor's I know are $50k+ just guessing. But the same goes for the opposite in the marine industry. I'm sure the building engineers can build a marine version of a mod motor if there was a market for it. Until then it's up to us to fund the individual LS swaps. Such as the one you posted. Thanks for posting. There is good info in your post!

BUIZILLA
03-31-2017, 04:10 PM
personally, I love small blocks in 22's, best ride out there

especially STOUT one's :worthy:

Ghost
04-01-2017, 01:34 AM
I'd think the new Volvo 430 6.2 would be interesting in a 22, along those lines. Would expect it'd outrun the BBCs of the same HP. (Revs are a bit high though.)

KrausMotorSports
04-01-2017, 11:13 AM
Now i'm really excited to have this small block in it. It will be a change of ride compared to what I usually run. I think i'll be surprised.

Morgan's Cloud
04-01-2017, 12:56 PM
Now i'm really excited to have this small block in it. It will be a change of ride compared to what I usually run. I think i'll be surprised.

Not only that , but when you DO re-power it'll seem like a new boat all over again .

Carl C
04-01-2017, 03:09 PM
260 hp? It will be a real dog and no fun to drive.

duckhunter
04-01-2017, 07:28 PM
I'm gonna throw out an option that isn't in the list you gave, or any of the follow-ups. Internet opinions and all that...

Take the monster you're building now, throw in a reasonable cam and wet exhaust, button it up, and go boating. Revisit the lumpy cam and dry exhaust route next winter, if ever. Since the vast majority of folks on here are making anywhere from 300 to 1200 hp with wet exhaust, going with build that requires a dry exhaust definitely isn't necessary to go fast in a 22C, and is sub-optimal for a host of reasons.

Instead of cobbling up a temporary solution, put the dollars into a solid BBC bullet that you can upgrade if/when needed. Throwing killer heads & induction on a rock-solid forged short block in a year or two is way easier than multiple engine swaps in the same time period.

JMHO.

gcarter
04-01-2017, 08:49 PM
I'm gonna throw out an option that isn't in the list you gave, or any of the follow-ups. Internet opinions and all that...

Take the monster you're building now, throw in a reasonable cam and wet exhaust, button it up, and go boating. Revisit the lumpy cam and dry exhaust route next winter, if ever. Since the vast majority of folks on here are making anywhere from 300 to 1200 hp with wet exhaust, going with build that requires a dry exhaust definitely isn't necessary to go fast in a 22C, and is sub-optimal for a host of reasons.

Instead of cobbling up a temporary solution, put the dollars into a solid BBC bullet that you can upgrade if/when needed. Throwing killer heads & induction on a rock-solid forged short block in a year or two is way easier than multiple engine swaps in the same time period.

JMHO.

+2
I agree.
22Cs and dry exhaust just don't go together.
I mean, you asked.......

KrausMotorSports
04-02-2017, 09:33 AM
I'm gonna throw out an option that isn't in the list you gave, or any of the follow-ups. Internet opinions and all that...

Take the monster you're building now, throw in a reasonable cam and wet exhaust, button it up, and go boating. Revisit the lumpy cam and dry exhaust route next winter, if ever. Since the vast majority of folks on here are making anywhere from 300 to 1200 hp with wet exhaust, going with build that requires a dry exhaust definitely isn't necessary to go fast in a 22C, and is sub-optimal for a host of reasons.

Instead of cobbling up a temporary solution, put the dollars into a solid BBC bullet that you can upgrade if/when needed. Throwing killer heads & induction on a rock-solid forged short block in a year or two is way easier than multiple engine swaps in the same time period.

JMHO.

I do have many options it seems. My brain hurts trying to over think things I guess. At work I can't do anything (which sucks up a lot of my time). My background is engine building in my teens and early 20's working in a very reputable machine shop. So it's my second nature to build the most you can with what I have. Now that I think about it I guess that was kinda "young and dumb" My other boat is a Solid roller 454 with stellings. The Donzi I picked up for a putt around have fun kinda deal. And run in the mid high 70's. But it's not to far into it to change the cam. It's just the Cam LSA that is getting me on this deal. Cam specs are the Crane 731 .598/610 110LSA. I could have went with the 112 but that's also still pushing it a bit with wet exhaust and in the classics there is not much room for a riser setup. With funding the rest of the build I know trying to sell the beater boat with a bad gas tank will be hit or miss. It's listed now. But we shall see. No comment is a bad comment. I like having many options and appreciate everyones input. Thanks Duck Hunter.


+2
I agree.
22Cs and dry exhaust just don't go together.
I mean, you asked.......

Ha ha yes your are right sir. As in my response to duck hunter my second nature of mentality was always the go as fast as I can and nothing I own is stock and was usually the loudest on the creek (we also have a 18 old school jet boat which is clearly open headers. LOL even the wife's daily truck is a 450hp monster pre runner setup.
But so you guys are in on my build here are some of the specs so please let me know what you guys think. I can change the cam and still run in the 70's that will work with the combo.

CI:GEN VI 454 .30 4.280"
JE Pistons 338181
File fit rings .22 top .24 bottom
Comp: 9.5:1
Crane 731: .598/.610 110
Double Roller Timing Chain ( Yes I spent the $180 for timing cover for double roller on GEN VI)
Blue Printed block. Block is Un-shrouded for bigger valves. Deck resurfaced to Correct Compression Ratio
Merlin Steel heads 320CC intake runners
2.30 Intake/ 1.88 Exhaust 119CC
454 Magnum Rods
Forged Factory Crank
Single Plate / Edlebrock Air-gap ( Both were going to the dyno to compare)
850 Quick fuel
MSD ignition

Should make for a pretty fast Classic. I've had some seat time in other boats and was looking for a challenge driving a classic with decent power. I've ran 76 in a 19 Caribe built 350 on a Alpha (no power steering) / 70 in deep V and 102 in Blown Cat. But these Classics are gorgeous. But with summer Fastly approaching I just wanted to get it out. As you can tell I tend to overthink things. Probably Water withdraw from this winter. It's still in the 50's today. Going to Key West for the Powerboat Races back in November just amplify my wants to be the Fastest again. But all in all i'm here to meet new people and get new ideas.

gcarter
04-02-2017, 03:24 PM
22C's deep-Vee hulls really aren't the best plan to be the fastest, although
a number have been built to regularly exceed 90, and a few over 100.
Most wouldn't be apparent to the casual observer that these boats had been
extensively modified. They're reasonably quiet at idle, and handle very
docilely around the dock.

I appreciate your zeal, it's refreshing to listen to your plans and enthusiasm.
Donzi's were cutting edge technology 50 years ago, I suppose my own
vision of a well executed, good performing Donzi today would be to compare
it to a Bentley GT that is comfortable, looks really cool, and can go really fast
but everyone knows it's not a sports car and is really designed for cruising
duty.

KrausMotorSports
04-02-2017, 10:03 PM
22C's deep-Vee hulls really aren't the best plan to be the fastest, although
a number have been built to regularly exceed 90, and a few over 100.
Most wouldn't be apparent to the casual observer that these boats had been
extensively modified. They're reasonably quiet at idle, and handle very
docilely around the dock.

I appreciate your zeal, it's refreshing to listen to your plans and enthusiasm.
Donzi's were cutting edge technology 50 years ago, I suppose my own
vision of a well executed, good performing Donzi today would be to compare
it to a Bentley GT that is comfortable, looks really cool, and can go really fast
but everyone knows it's not a sports car and is really designed for cruising
duty.

Watching some of these guys like Bjorn I believe is his name and Jeff Harris who did the motor for Ekum I believe his name is just blows my mind the speeds those guys see. Honestly I would really like to stay in the 75-80 max. Here on the Chesapeake Bay you can run into a lot of Rogue waves. Not the best conditions for a 22 classic. But I do have good news. I'm seeing interest in the beater and I checked out the stock GEN VI 330's today. We shall see but i'm a believer in things are meant to be they will happen. Hope everyone had a great weekend!

Pismo
04-03-2017, 11:10 AM
That Ilmor 570hp LS motor looks good in a 22. I'll take 2..

Carl C
04-03-2017, 12:21 PM
We all have our needs and wants. My boat ran 73 stock. That wasn't enough to get me the thrills I like. I went with a 525 EFI which is a very nice match for the 22 Classic. That gets me into the 80s and great acceleration. I would rarely be able to use much more top end since most of my boating is on the Great Lakes. It's also a reliable package and it likes 87 octane.

Pat McPherson
04-03-2017, 03:25 PM
If the boat came with a small bock originally then dropping in a running 260HP to get on the water is not a bad idea.
Long term you will not be happy running around with a top speed in the low to mid 50s. Most 22' have big blocks for a reason...:yes:

The 22 is a lot of fun with a high torque engine that give the boat lots of acceleration. IMHO an engine that produces at least 450-500ftlbs is what a 22 needs. Top speeds over 75mph in a 22' will take 450HP+ and to be safe, external steering rams...:cool:

My boat runs great with a bone stock 415HP 502mag, but I won't mind upgrading the engine to make 500HP. I don't have much desire to go faster than 75-80 in her.

It would be nice to have a small block that made the same power as 502 big block to save on weight and room in the bilge. The cost of such a small block conversion not worth it for me...:)

Pat McPherson
04-03-2017, 03:45 PM
"Cam specs are the Crane 731 .598/610 110LSA"

The cam specs you listed are very close to the cam Merc ran in the 470HP HP500 Carb engine with wet Gills. The HP500 is a 502 cube not 454 so maybe it would take running the idle a little higher. I think Merc made for 1 year a 450HP/454 with that same HP500 cam.

The HP500 EFI has the same cam with a 114LSA.

I think it's totally reasonable to run a stock Cane 731 with 112LSA in a 454 with wet exhaust so long as the risers are full length back close to the transom. No stock short cast iron or short captains call risers.

I've got sitting on a shelf a ZZ502 cam that I toy with swapping into my engine. Then I say to myself, "she runs so good now, don't mess with her"...:eek:

yeller
04-03-2017, 08:44 PM
CI:GEN VI 454 .30 4.280"
JE Pistons 338181
File fit rings .22 top .24 bottom
Comp: 9.5:1
Crane 731: .598/.610 110
Double Roller Timing Chain ( Yes I spent the $180 for timing cover for double roller on GEN VI)
Blue Printed block. Block is Un-shrouded for bigger valves. Deck resurfaced to Correct Compression Ratio
Merlin Steel heads 320CC intake runners
2.30 Intake/ 1.88 Exhaust 119CC
454 Magnum Rods
Forged Factory Crank
Single Plate / Edlebrock Air-gap ( Both were going to the dyno to compare)
850 Quick fuel
MSD ignition

Quarter inch gap? A bit tight isn't it? ;)

I'm assuming you mean .022 & .024. Why so big?

Fishermanjm
04-04-2017, 06:38 PM
Sure I would love to have Carl's engine in my boat or any BBC for that
matter,,, it's just not in the cards for my boat. The 6.2 pushes my boat up to
mid 60's on the slop-n-chop in Narragansett bay I've seen 69 on my gps once coming home from Newport on a low tank of fuel AN just me. Honestly it made me poop my pants,,, super fun,,, blowing along with a chop. I turned some heads that evening. I'm removing the factory water mufflers an adding straight thru tips this year. Man I love my boat!!!

KrausMotorSports
05-28-2017, 10:06 AM
"Cam specs are the Crane 731 .598/610 110LSA"

The cam specs you listed are very close to the cam Merc ran in the 470HP HP500 Carb engine with wet Gills. The HP500 is a 502 cube not 454 so maybe it would take running the idle a little higher. I think Merc made for 1 year a 450HP/454 with that same HP500 cam.

The HP500 EFI has the same cam with a 114LSA.

I think it's totally reasonable to run a stock Cane 731 with 112LSA in a 454 with wet exhaust so long as the risers are full length back close to the transom. No stock short cast iron or short captains call risers.

I've got sitting on a shelf a ZZ502 cam that I toy with swapping into my engine. Then I say to myself, "she runs so good now, don't mess with her"...:eek:

Just not getting back around to messing with it. Work has been using up my spare time and weekends. Since then I did sell my other boat so this 454 build is back in swing. Im actually running now a set of CMI Sport tubes. The water enters the exhaust at the very end so I should be fine there with some trial runs to make sure there isn't any Reversion. I just put a combo together with a mix between the two. I do have a nice 502 Dart block but that's not for the Donzi. Really don't need anything more then a decent 454 to keep me happy. Even with this motor it will still get me to the point of installing hydraulic steering sooner then later. Since i've been away from the garage I need to double check my cam specs. Still have my work cutout for me without a doubt. But thats where the fun is right?


Quarter inch gap? A bit tight isn't it? ;)

I'm assuming you mean .022 & .024. Why so big?

lol yes sir! .o22/.024 I like a slightly wider gap. Never know when I may come across a nice set of aluminum heads and a Heffer to stick on top. ;-)

Just Say N20
05-28-2017, 02:09 PM
and a Heffer to stick on top. ;-)

You are going to put a cow on top of your engine?!? LOL!

KrausMotorSports
05-28-2017, 03:19 PM
You are going to put a cow on top of your engine?!? LOL!

Huffer*** lol or a big heavy piece of billet aluminum that scares little kids. lol

Ghost
05-28-2017, 05:32 PM
IF you're still talking a low-tuned 454 you don't need any special exhaust and it won't do any good anyway. You can get Stainless Marine for probably $2800 I think, and enjoy the peace of mind.

I may may have missed a fork in the plans. :)

gcarter
05-29-2017, 10:37 AM
OSO frequently has Stainless Marine, and Gil setups in their classified section
at very reasonable prices.
I've been a happy customer there a number of times.

VetteLT193
05-29-2017, 12:07 PM
I've spent more than enough time in a 22 with dry exhaust. It's fun if you don't like people at all. Plan on having zero conversations while in or around the running boat. There is no platform to knock the sound down and the passengers are too close to the exhaust.

KrausMotorSports
05-29-2017, 09:33 PM
IF you're still talking a low-tuned 454 you don't need any special exhaust and it won't do any good anyway. You can get Stainless Marine for probably $2800 I think, and enjoy the peace of mind.

I may may have missed a fork in the plans. :)

I'm on there as well. Good amount of good people on there also. I have the Joppatowne Marina just down the street with Tony From CMS racing engines who is head of the performance division whom I know very well. He is part of the Crazy Chicken crew (Throttles) if you've ever heard of them? He knows what I have been putting together and has a plethora of exhaust combinations available that he has offered for me to try out and see what works best both with power/reversion and fitment. At this current moment i'm working on cleaning and painting the bilge and getting the Bravo serviced and painted. I'll make a actual build thread once I get closer to completion so the first page is mostly pics and a run Video. My hopeful date is July 25th which would be my birthday weekend.

donzidon
05-30-2017, 12:03 AM
I run a Stainless Marine dry exhaust with GGB inserts and Shotgun tips on my 22 with a 464. The GGB inserts went in last year, and the boat is pretty quiet at low to mid RPMs. May be loud at WOT, but I can't hear it over the wind in my ears.

I bought a set of Hi-Tek integrated header/riser units over the winter for my 18 with a Ford 350. They are the only stainless option for a Ford. Cost was under $2000 direct from Australia. I emailed Hi-Tek Marine, and Allan called me right away. I gave him my credit card, and the order was filled promptly. Planning to put them on the boat the week after next.

Good luck with the project.