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chip w
01-23-2017, 02:14 PM
A while back I posted some questions about expanding our garage to house the Classic and our 911 and my wife's Subaru. We finally have plans and are getting ready to break ground in the next week or two. The garage will be big enough to house a 22 Classic with room to get around it. All was going well and I've been looking for a 22 to replace the 18C. Until now.

Over the past 18 months we have rebuilt the transom and replaced the stringers in the 18. A new gimble, oil pan, timing cover and chain, exhaust manifolds, risers, exhaust tips, trim tabs, etc. So a lot has been done to the 18.

The last time out we put about 60 miles on and it was running terrible when I got back. I pulled the plugs and on the port side they looked like they were steam cleaned. The heads were pulled and the port head is cracked. Actually, it's more like a hole rotted through. So the extra money that I would put toward a 22 is now being spent on the motor and I've decided to keep the 18 a bit longer so that the garage can be "finished" so that it's more than just a place to work but also a good place to spend time pondering and maybe watching a race from time to time. Besides, running the 18 in rough water on Tampa Bay or the other surrounding areas can be a ton of fun! So this leads to the question that has been asked many times here; what to replace the stock motor with. Chris from Fitch Powerboat Services has a 377 long block if I can talk him out of it. If not I'm looking for options. I'd like to end up with 350 to 375 hp. Reliability is also important. I'm keeping the Alpha as I don't need to do extreme hole shots but we do pull skier's from time to time on the lake. Skier's don't need hard hole shots.

Just curious what your thoughts are. There's a lot of knowledge here and I'd like to tap into it before I do something and then later hear "you should have..."

Thanks,
Chip

smokediver
01-23-2017, 03:00 PM
If it were me .. I would look around for a newer model 350mag... You will be hard pressed to match the reliability and user friendliness of the 350mag/alpha package . If you can get the 377 block and move over your accys', thats not a bad deal either .

chip w
01-24-2017, 09:38 AM
Thanks for the advice. I agree that you can't beat the 350 for user friendly and reliability, but i want more performance than that. With a Mirage 21 I top out at around 58 mph at 4800 rpm. The reason for thinking about going to a 22 is to get into the mid 70's top end or mid 60's without running wot all the time. I can give up a little reliability but I'd rather not have something that gives up at 200 hours. I know there are guys like Carl that put big hours on their BBC's without being in the shop all the time. So that's why I was thinking of the 377 or 383.

olredalert
01-24-2017, 10:21 AM
----If you are looking for a great motor with a WARRANTEE that actually works go to the Michigan Motorz (correct spelling) website and poke around. They have never let me down and prices are good! And,,,dont pay much attention to horse power as Torque is what gets you that nice high cruise......Bill S

chip w
01-24-2017, 10:42 AM
----If you are looking for a great motor with a WARRANTEE that actually works go to the Michigan Motorz (correct spelling) website and poke around. They have never let me down and prices are good! And,,,dont pay much attention to horse power as Torque is what gets you that nice high cruise......Bill S

Thanks Bill. I've looked around on their site. I have a four bolt intake so I'd have to buy an intake mainfold and probably a carb as well. Will my exhaust manifolds and risers bolt on as they're fairly new? I think the other accessories will bolt right on.

gcarter
01-24-2017, 02:53 PM
Chip, since you had this particular type of problem, are you considering closed cooling?

joseph m. hahnl
01-24-2017, 08:27 PM
I built a 377 for my cruiser with a clearance GM Performance block from Summit and a rotating assembly from Scat. just waiting on spring to put the flywheel and the exhaust manifolds on then it's going in.

In the Minx I put in a Dart 400 . That build was a short block from Tri Star. and Eddy heads.


http://www.tristarengines.com/catalog/high-performance-crate-engines/gm/gm-performance-shortblocks.html

chip w
01-25-2017, 09:34 AM
Chip, since you had this particular type of problem, are you considering closed cooling?

I've given that a lot of thought. The crossroads I'm at is I still want to have fun in the 18 but eventually I'll move to a 22, it's what I really want. The closed cooling system should add value in this area and I see full systems are available for $800 to $1,200. The cheaper ones cool the block only while the more expensive are full systems that cool the heads as well. Since the heads are where the problem is (this time) I think I'd want the full system. If money weren't an object it would be fun to put one of the new LS3 motors in with the full system but $16k seem a little pricey.

chip w
01-25-2017, 09:35 AM
I built a 377 for my cruiser with a clearance GM Performance block from Summit and a rotating assembly from Scat. just waiting on spring to put the flywheel and the exhaust manifolds on then it's going in.

In the Minx I put in a Dart 400 . That build was a short block from Tri Star. and Eddy heads.

If I understand correctly I could bolt my exhaust manifolds and risers onto a 377 long block. Would my fly wheel fit or do I need to pick up a new one?

gcarter
01-25-2017, 09:47 AM
As far as the flywheel goes, ya gotta ask if the new engine is internally or externally balanced,
and what was the configuration of the old engine.

chip w
01-25-2017, 11:00 AM
As far as the flywheel goes, ya gotta ask if the new engine is internally or externally balanced,
and what was the configuration of the old engine.

Thanks George. I'll get the configuration off my old one in the next few days. Trying to do this at the same time that we are building the garage and fit work in as well is becoming a challenge. :nilly: I'm glad it cooled off and got windy or I'd feel like I'm missing our prime boating season!

Morgan's Cloud
01-25-2017, 11:26 AM
I've given that a lot of thought. The crossroads I'm at is I still want to have fun in the 18 but eventually I'll move to a 22, it's what I really want. The closed cooling system should add value in this area and I see full systems are available for $800 to $1,200. The cheaper ones cool the block only while the more expensive are full systems that cool the heads as well. Since the heads are where the problem is (this time) I think I'd want the full system. If money weren't an object it would be fun to put one of the new LS3 motors in with the full system but $16k seem a little pricey.


Actually they're available in two versions. 'Partial system ' or 'Full system'
In both cases the entire block AND heads are FWC , the difference is that with the full system the exhaust manifold (but not the riser) is covered as well .

chip w
01-25-2017, 02:07 PM
Actually they're available in two versions. 'Partial system ' or 'Full system'
In both cases the entire block AND heads are FWC , the difference is that with the full system the exhaust manifold (but not the riser) is covered as well .

Thanks for clarifying that. For a few hundred dollars more it seems to make sense for a full system. Add stainless risers to it and it should be a system that lasts longer than I'll own the boat. And again, a good selling point.

Morgan's Cloud
01-25-2017, 02:19 PM
There are two (slight) downsides to the 'full system' though.
One , it needs a bigger heat exchanger than a half system.
Two , unless you have an exhaust system like Hi-Teks you still have the weak spot in the link which is the manifold/riser gasket and also the chance for the riser to fail or crust up causing raw water dump problems .

BTW I'm a big fan of FWC systems .

gcarter
01-25-2017, 04:34 PM
Yes!
What Steve said about cooler size.
Another thing to consider is the need for new manifolds
w/a full system. You can never get the manifolds clean enough
so that when you fill the new engine and old manifolds w/pure
water and antifreeze, the old crud doesn't coming off the surfaces
and causing problems in the total cooling system.

It turns out that the most economical system is a "half" size
cooler and old manifolds.

joseph m. hahnl
01-25-2017, 06:05 PM
If I understand correctly I could bolt my exhaust manifolds and risers onto a 377 long block. Would my flywheel fit or do I need to pick up a new one?Yes the manifold will bolt on. If you go with a GM Performance block which is used by Mercruiser and it's a one piece main seal hydraulic roller block . the fly wheel will bolt on. The rotating assembly you have is an internal balance on the front and external balance on the rear. You can get a 377 internal on both sides.In that case you'd have to get a zero balance flywheel. So That's something you have to ask, from whom ever you get the long block from. What I suggest is going with the short block with a compression ratio based on 64 CC aluminum heads and a HR 270 high duration camshaft. Then buy a good set of USA made aluminum heads and a marine roller cam

yeller
01-25-2017, 10:02 PM
Well I don't have to tell what motor I think you should use...:)


If money weren't an object it would be fun to put one of the new LS3 motors in with the full system but $16k seem a little pricey.$16k for an LS3?. :eek: Someone is making some serious money on that.

$6750 for LS3 from Summit. $1000 for aluminum manifolds/risers from Marine Power. $1500 for a Holley computer and you're at $9250.

Go for it.............!!!!! :yes: :biggrin.:

chip w
01-26-2017, 10:39 AM
Thank you to all for the ideas. I have a lot to ponder over the weekend. The idea of building the short block has some appeal to it, especially if I can reuse my block and save some money that could be put towards the cam and heads. I'll keep everyone posted.

duckhunter
01-27-2017, 07:41 PM
Thank you to all for the ideas. I have a lot to ponder over the weekend. The idea of building the short block has some appeal to it, especially if I can reuse my block and save some money that could be put towards the cam and heads. I'll keep everyone posted.

If you lost a head due to corrosion there's NO way I'd reuse that block. Shoot, I don't think I could be talked into rebuilding a raw-water-cooled marine block in almost any circumstances. New block or refurb'd automotive block isn't a lot of $$ in the grand scheme of things, and allows you to upgrade to four-bolt mains and factory roller cam.

gcarter
01-27-2017, 09:25 PM
If you lost a head due to corrosion there's NO way I'd reuse that block. Shoot, I don't think I could be talked into rebuilding a raw-water-cooled marine block in almost any circumstances. New block or refurb'd automotive block isn't a lot of $$ in the grand scheme of things, and allows you to upgrade to four-bolt mains and factory roller cam.

I'm glad you said that Duck, because I didn't want to be the one to!
A good 4 bolt main truck engine isn't that hard to find.

chip w
01-30-2017, 02:27 PM
I'm glad you said that Duck, because I didn't want to be the one to!
A good 4 bolt main truck engine isn't that hard to find.
I agree. It will be a new block. Just have to decide what platform we will build from.

Fishermanjm
01-30-2017, 08:18 PM
I installed a full system on mine, got plenty of advise
from these same guys. The full system fit like it was
factory equipped. Block, heads, an manifolds. Question
about the 377,,, fuel injection or carb??? The 377 is a hell
of an engine

chip w
01-31-2017, 12:40 PM
Thinking carb.

yeller
01-31-2017, 09:20 PM
Thinking carb.
Then I vote again for an LS3. No computer needed. Sell the FI intake and throttle body to pay for the carb intake. :yes:

chip w
02-01-2017, 11:25 AM
There may be a 3rd option that I'm considering. I'm looking at a 2004 22 Anniversary edition with a fresh Merlin 509 and also a 2006 Shelby. If I do that it will make a difference on what I do with the 18. The 22 is appealing for the open water. The 18 is great for the lake. Lots to consider.

yeller
02-01-2017, 01:20 PM
Well that changes things. Now I vote Shelby. By far the nicest 22 Donzi ever made imo

chip w
02-01-2017, 02:49 PM
Well that changes things. Now I vote Shelby. By far the nicest 22 Donzi ever made imo

I'm leaning that way. Business is off to a good start this year and that makes a difference. It's blue with the white deck stripes. Sure would look good in the new garage once it's finished! IMHO, it will look good with me in it too. Even better with Jen in it!

chip w
02-01-2017, 02:50 PM
http://images0.boattrader.com/resize/1/44/5/6084405_0_270120171455_2.JPG?t=1237940

tmdog
02-01-2017, 06:38 PM
That's a beautiful blue Shelby, my favorite.

duckhunter
02-01-2017, 10:02 PM
That's hot!

Fishermanjm
02-02-2017, 08:07 PM
That blue is awsome. U better buy the blue classic before I do
jk,,, U have quite the decision to make

chip w
02-03-2017, 11:13 AM
That blue is awsome. U better buy the blue classic before I do
jk,,, U have quite the decision to make

Yeah, I'm feeling like my 6 year old son at Toys R Us! I've got a lot of business travel coming up and I'd like to see if I can get a layover close enough to allow me to go look at it. And I still need to fix the 18C and build a garage!

Pat McPherson
02-09-2017, 01:25 PM
Hi Chip,
Not been to this sight for a while; life's been crazy. Bummer about your engine!
If you plan to buy a 22' in the near future I'd just buy a stock long block 350 to swap out in your 18'. They can be had for $1500...
As for the 22' Shelby, that boat is beautiful!

chip w
02-14-2017, 04:23 PM
Hi Chip,
Not been to this sight for a while; life's been crazy. Bummer about your engine!
If you plan to buy a 22' in the near future I'd just buy a stock long block 350 to swap out in your 18'. They can be had for $1500...
As for the 22' Shelby, that boat is beautiful!

I'm going to look at a 22 tomorrow with a 496HO. If it's a solid boat I'll probably buy it and put the 350 long block in my 18 and put it up for sale. If the 22 doesn't work out than I think we are building a 377 long block. I like the Shelby but I'm not sure I want to spend that much right now. It's a great looking boat on the trailer but it's a long haul to drive to IL and back. Stay tuned. I have to make a decision pretty soon on what I'm going to do.

Pat McPherson
02-15-2017, 08:50 AM
I'm going to look at a 22 tomorrow with a 496HO. If it's a solid boat I'll probably buy it and put the 350 long block in my 18 and put it up for sale. If the 22 doesn't work out than I think we are building a 377 long block. I like the Shelby but I'm not sure I want to spend that much right now. It's a great looking boat on the trailer but it's a long haul to drive to IL and back. Stay tuned. I have to make a decision pretty soon on what I'm going to do.

The Shelby is a real looker but not sure they are worth the extra $$ over a stock 22.

chip w
02-16-2017, 11:32 AM
The Shelby is a real looker but not sure they are worth the extra $$ over a stock 22.

So I went to Jacksonville and looked at the 22. I have to say, and I'm trying to be nice, but that was one of the worst looking 22's I've ever seen. It's just been used hard and not well maintained. I took a friend with me so the trip wasn't a complete waste.

On the other side of things I've decided to go forward with the 377. That will let me enjoy the 18 until I decide what to do on a 22 and I have to put a motor in it so it may as well be something I'll enjoy. The 18 is a nice boat and when it goes it will make a great boat for someone else. I'll post what the plans are for the motor as we get the list of parts together.

Pat McPherson
02-16-2017, 03:02 PM
Looking forward to following your project Chip.

I've not ever built a stroker.
I've got a nice 4 bolt 454 that's been sitting around for 10+ years.
Thought at one point I'd build a 496 but I ended up buying a 502 instead.

chip w
02-17-2017, 04:16 PM
The beginning of the plan is to use all GM Performance parts including 9.5:1 compression pistons and a GM cam kit that includes springs, rollers, etc. Duration is 218-228 with .525 lift using the stock crank and con rods.

Pat McPherson
02-23-2017, 01:09 PM
The beginning of the plan is to use all GM Performance parts including 9.5:1 compression pistons and a GM cam kit that includes springs, rollers, etc. Duration is 218-228 with .525 lift using the stock crank and con rods.

Hi Chip,
Are you rebuilding your existing short block and buying new heads or are you buying a stroker long block or other?
I'm assuming that cam is a roller with that much lift.
Have you pick heads, intake, or any other parts yet?
Do you have a plans for exhaust upgrade?
The last 350 marine engine I built was for my 20' minx. I rebuilt the 270hp mag into a 320hp tempest. That engine had a flat tappet cam.

chip w
02-24-2017, 01:59 PM
Hi Chip,
Are you rebuilding your existing short block and buying new heads or are you buying a stroker long block or other?
I'm assuming that cam is a roller with that much lift.
Have you pick heads, intake, or any other parts yet?
Do you have a plans for exhaust upgrade?
The last 350 marine engine I built was for my 20' minx. I rebuilt the 270hp mag into a 320hp tempest. That engine had a flat tappet cam.

It's going to be a 377 long block. I'm just not comfortable rebuilding the 350 after salt has been all through it. I'll probably use the stock manifolds but it will have 9.5:1 pistons and yes, the cam is a roller. It will be carbureted and I'll be reusing my exhaust manifolds and risers as the boat was only used about 8 times since I replaced them. I might bite the bullet and buy stainless risers but haven't decided on that yet. I can also reuse my alternator, starter, etc. as those were all replaced when I replaced the manifolds and risers. I'd like to use as much of the stuff that I just replaced as I can. This boat is seriously turning into the phoenix. It just keeps rising from the ashes. :)

Pat McPherson
02-24-2017, 03:53 PM
I used these on a 454 with stock manifolds.
http://www.cpperformance.com/p-13413-stainless-steel-risers-for-original-mercury-manifolds-standard-dimensions.aspx
I had installed a larger cam and was worried about reversion. They are pricey, but if your manifolds are new...
I'm not sure of the overlap of the cam you have selected, but my guess is that you probably shouldn't use the stock risers if the LSA is less than 114deg.

chip w
02-25-2017, 03:44 PM
I used these on a 454 with stock manifolds.
http://www.cpperformance.com/p-13413-stainless-steel-risers-for-original-mercury-manifolds-standard-dimensions.aspx
I had installed a larger cam and was worried about reversion. They are pricey, but if your manifolds are new...
I'm not sure of the overlap of the cam you have selected, but my guess is that you probably shouldn't use the stock risers if the LSA is less than 114deg.

Thanks Pat. I'll check these out. Either way I'll end up with these or something similar.

Ralph Savarese
03-05-2017, 12:38 PM
GM performance ZZ383 is the best engine I ever had Set up with fwc and forget about it 5200 RPM 450Hp 450lbs/ft torque out of the box pushing 70 MPH Volvo 280 Solas 15 5/8 x23

chip w
05-18-2017, 04:31 PM
So life has gotten in the way of the boat but we're making progress on that. And the garage addition is under construction. Lot's of work related travel this year and more to come, but... the new motor is together. It should be running on the stand in the next few days. Here's a couple of shots, before and after paint.

8596085961

Pat McPherson
05-19-2017, 12:17 PM
Roller Rockers and High rise with Brass water passages. :)

What Carb and Ignition??

Did you pick exhaust risers?

If your travels bring you to the north east, gotta stop by...

Fun project :wrench:

chip w
05-23-2017, 01:21 PM
Roller Rockers and High rise with Brass water passages. :)

What Carb and Ignition??

Did you pick exhaust risers?

If your travels bring you to the north east, gotta stop by...

Fun project :wrench:

The carb is an AFB 750.

For now we're using the stock ignition and risers (They were only used about 6 times on the last motor). If I keep it and don't get a 22 then I'll replace the risers with stainless. Not sure what kind yet as I'm moving one step at a time. Unfortunately I've had some other stuff to deal with.

On the other front the garage addition is moving along. My wife has decided it has to be a man cave too, not at all a bad thing but that's taken the price tag to about double what I had planned. So the boat and car will be in an airconditioned garage when everything is buttoned up. Wet bar and TV as well and I nice comfy chair. :) I expect she'll have a bed out there for me before long.

chip w
06-28-2017, 03:52 PM
Many thank to Chris Fitch and brother Kerrington for getting the new motor together. So far they have about 4 hours of running time on the stand. Should be in the boat soon.


https://youtu.be/g3ptaB0D0JU

tmdog
06-28-2017, 08:15 PM
Good job. Sounds good and even has a slight lope.:)

yeller
06-28-2017, 10:39 PM
Nice! :thumbsup:

chip w
06-29-2017, 10:17 AM
It's been slow progress for sure but I've got a couple other things going on at the same time, including a difficult building inspector that is holding up my garage addition. :mad: Hope to have the new motor in the boat next week and a first run in. I need to blow off a little steam and getting back on the water could help me with the other things that I'm working on.

Yes, there's a mild cam from GM performance that gives it that bit of a lumpy sound. I love that! :yes:

Pat McPherson
06-30-2017, 10:00 AM
nice upgrade, she should real scoot:yes:

chip w
08-11-2017, 10:19 AM
The motor is back in the boat. Just haven't had time for an update in a while. It's been hot and stormy so I haven't had it out yet. I did hit 66 mph on GPS with a REV4 24 and 68 with a Mirage 23 labbed to a 24. We used GM Performance 9.5:1 pistons, GM Performance cam 218-228 profile and .525 lift on a LSA motor. I haven't had a chance to really run it yet and we're still breaking in in. Mid-range punch is great. So far I'm really happy with everything about it. We'll try some more props when we have time. Here's a video that Chris made of it sitting at the doc at sunset.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woKy5J2afxU

Carl C
08-11-2017, 04:23 PM
Sounds good. :pimp:

chip w
08-17-2017, 03:42 PM
Sounds good. :pimp:

Thanks Carl! I'm very pleased with it so far. The new garage is just about done and it will be going in there this weekend. I hope to get out on it for a while either Saturday or Sunday and put some time on the new motor. We have a few trips planned for this fall. Chris Fitch wants to run from Tampa Bay to Marco Island if I can get away long enough to do that. We'd take my 18, his brother's 22C and his Warlock. Also have a couple other trips to do too. I'm looking forward to the fall. :)

yeller
08-17-2017, 10:30 PM
blah, blah, blah, blah.....The new garage is just about done and it will be going in there this weekend. blah, blah, blah,
blah... That's all I got out of your post. :biggrin.:

Bet you're looking forward to being able to store it indoors. Garage: the most important room of the house. :yes:



Just kidding Chip. Glad you're happy with the new motor. :thumbsup:

chip w
08-18-2017, 03:06 PM
That's all I got out of your post. :biggrin.:


Thanks for the laugh! I do tend to run on from time to time. :bonk: