PDA

View Full Version : Engine Compartment insulation



FarPoint
12-31-2016, 01:28 AM
Recently purchased '95 Classic 22. There's an insulating foam on the inside of the engine compartment forward bulkhead. It's black with kind of a "waffle" or "egg crate" surface. Not flat. Looks factory original. It's starting to deterioriate, and since that, and a dead bilge pump are all I can find wrong with the boat, i'm gonna change it.
Any suggestions or a source for the original foam?
The boat is so original, I kinda lean toward original replacement. But if there's something better, let's get it in there!
I'm not sure what's under it yet. Unfinished or gelled surface???

Morgan's Cloud
12-31-2016, 07:36 AM
The 1st question that comes to my mind is 'Is the stuff you have now working and making a difference ?' Maybe other 22C owners will know the answer to that if they've been able to do comparisons against other 22s with or without it .
That would justify replacing it , or just getting rid of it all together .

From personal experience we did soundproofing in the engine room on the Magnum when it was restored . Just the engine room bulkhead and the inside top of the engine hatch .
The product we used , I believe , was 'Soundown' , I think it came from the North East somewhere . It's foam encapsulated lead sheet and is chemically and mechanically fastened . And it's not light either .

I think that if you've got a solidly built boat you'd find that the cracks between the engine room and the c0ckpit contribute more to noise getting through .

If the stuff you have is just the acoustic egg crate pattern foam you might have a hard time completely removing and cleaning the surface that it was stuck on .

edit / Wow , my brain must still have a few functioning cells .. found the link . http://www.soundown.com/AI.htm

gcarter
12-31-2016, 10:17 AM
Congratulations on the new boat!

A little history.....
One of the 22C's weak points (which has been in production since about 1979, or so, under several owners)
was the deck and cockpit were pretty much a "trampoline" somewhat free to move up and down.
The problem was a lot of damage was done to the cockpit sole and the deck immediately behind
the rear seat back. To solve this issue when AMH bought Donzi in '94 was to mount the cockpit to the
stringers in some polyester putty, and to install the "firewall" you mentioned.
Its purpose is to support the deck just in front of the hatch, not necessarily to reduce sound levels.
The firewall is easily removable by removing several screws, then you can clean it off and refinish any
way you want.
My own opinion is to use that bulkhead to mount stuff to.
Here's an example of what can be done if you set your mind to it. My boat is an '88 22C Testarossa,
and didn't have the full bulkhead, so I used a glass reinforced 3/4" piece of plywood bonded to the
rear seat back. As you can see, there's a closed cooling system, fuel system, all the stern electrical, three
hydraulic pumps, a Halon fire system, and part of the external hydraulic steering system mounted to it:

Tidbart
12-31-2016, 10:30 AM
What is under the original is most likely a sheet of plywood. Getting it off was easy. Use a putty knife and keep a trash bag and shop vac close by.
Frankly, the foam didn't do a heck of lot. I have always like the plastic or metal, diamond plate look on the firewall. Keep the plywood and cover it the diamond plate. :)

Bob


85536

Ghost
12-31-2016, 10:41 AM
If you want something there for sound insulation, there are folk-covered foam materials now. Will look much better than exposed egg-crate and should do a better job.

bertsboat
12-31-2016, 10:25 PM
Where can I see folk-covered foam? Thanks



If you want something there for sound insulation, there are folk-covered foam materials now. Will look much better than exposed egg-crate and should do a better job.

Ghost
12-31-2016, 10:53 PM
Where can I see folk-covered foam? Thanks

LOL, oops--might have been autocorrect. Should be 'foil.' :)

FarPoint
01-01-2017, 01:46 AM
Thanks for the input guys.
And George- that's some nice work on the rigging. This boat currently has 2 trim pumps and the actuator for the silent choice mounted up front, and I may install FWC, so that pic is great.
Bob, that looks like what's showing through the foam in one spot. this stuff has gotta go- it's deterioriated enough that if I don't use the shop vac on it, the engine will inhale it.
Thanks for the link, ill send a pic when i'm done.
Fred

Tidbart
01-01-2017, 08:58 AM
See post #134 for all the photos. I did the foiled foam but after a couple years the foil started to separate from the foam. Seems as though the adhesive didn't last.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?52510-502-Mag-intake-destruction/page9&highlight=bilge

Bob

KrausMotorSports
01-01-2017, 10:49 AM
What is under the original is most likely a sheet of plywood. Getting it off was easy. Use a putty knife and keep a trash bag and shop vac close by.
Frankly, the foam didn't do a heck of lot. I have always like the plastic or metal, diamond plate look on the firewall. Keep the plywood and cover it the diamond plate. :)

Bob


85536

Bob,
Mine is identical to yours. Mine is a 96 and although the foam seems to be still intact the back board I took out just to check out the rest of the boat. I'm assuming it was manufactured that way but in my OCD I realized how crappy the cuts were and decided to take it out and since it had to come out cracked in half (surprising I made that work in the engine bay) which i had to do to get it out of the hatch I made a template so I can replace what was in there better and stronger. NOW I have noticed that through the years some Classics have the cover between the Stringers to the sides of the engine bay where as some are open. I have one big 6" hole to access the motor mount bolts but when I started digging through mine I realized that there was a soft spot under the "fake" fiberglass diamond plate design or anti-skid if you want to call it that. That soft spot was a total of 4 different spots and what I realized is those were covered by design and those holes were designed to fill that small void with expanding foam. Those 4 are just for the back side. The same manufactured holes are closer to the board behind the seat. As you can see in the pictures. That foam in mine was wet. So i drilled the holes and vacuumed up the loose pieces. I plan to remove mine all together (foam) and replace just the stinger side foam. And therefore make it water tight so it doesn't happen again under my ownership. Heres' a pic of mine and you can see the small holes in the back. It also looks like I got to it before it does any further damage as the stringers and the wood look good. It's dirty but this is going to be my before picture. I haven't done anything except find what wrong with mine before it goes out for it's first fun run in April on the Chesapeake….

http://i1168.photobucket.com/albums/r492/KrausMotoSports57/2016-11/1E6FF5A3-E2C8-42FC-89F7-D4F3AD6134F9_zpsk8qcgf8s.jpg (http://s1168.photobucket.com/user/KrausMotoSports57/media/2016-11/1E6FF5A3-E2C8-42FC-89F7-D4F3AD6134F9_zpsk8qcgf8s.jpg.html)

http://i1168.photobucket.com/albums/r492/KrausMotoSports57/2016-11/EDF2AAFE-2405-48D0-A680-9198BF65E908_zpsck7pqv1r.jpg (http://s1168.photobucket.com/user/KrausMotoSports57/media/2016-11/EDF2AAFE-2405-48D0-A680-9198BF65E908_zpsck7pqv1r.jpg.html)

Pismo
01-01-2017, 11:51 AM
I have a 1996 as well and have black egg crate foam that is deteriorating badly. If I touch it, it makes a hell of a mess, just black powder/particles everywhere. Will be replacing with something else. The underside of my hatch currently has nothing and I may add something there as well.. Would be nice to quiet it down as much as possible. I thought of reversing the vents so the rear one faces forward and the front faces back but they are not symmetric or interchangeable. Great thread, just what I need to know, thanks.

FarPoint
01-01-2017, 02:41 PM
Happy New Year everyone.
I was just gonna rest and relax today.
Following several (OCD) days spent detailing, checking out, cleaning and maintaining every moving part on my trailer. ( '02 EZLoader, Tandem, Galvanized)
Secure in my knowledge that all I had to do on the boat itself was a bilge pump and some foam insulation.
HOWEVER - now that I have read the responses, I'm off to the shop to investigate.
I do really love taking stuff apart, so all this great info is really fueling8553785538 my obsessive side.......

gcarter
01-01-2017, 08:50 PM
Bob,
Mine is identical to yours. Mine is a 96 and although the foam seems to be still intact the back board I took out just to check out the rest of the boat. I'm assuming it was manufactured that way but in my OCD I realized how crappy the cuts were and decided to take it out and since it had to come out cracked in half (surprising I made that work in the engine bay) which i had to do to get it out of the hatch I made a template so I can replace what was in there better and stronger. NOW I have noticed that through the years some Classics have the cover between the Stringers to the sides of the engine bay where as some are open. I have one big 6" hole to access the motor mount bolts but when I started digging through mine I realized that there was a soft spot under the "fake" fiberglass diamond plate design or anti-skid if you want to call it that. That soft spot was a total of 4 different spots and what I realized is those were covered by design and those holes were designed to fill that small void with expanding foam. Those 4 are just for the back side. The same manufactured holes are closer to the board behind the seat. As you can see in the pictures. That foam in mine was wet. So i drilled the holes and vacuumed up the loose pieces. I plan to remove mine all together (foam) and replace just the stinger side foam. And therefore make it water tight so it doesn't happen again under my ownership. Heres' a pic of mine and you can see the small holes in the back. It also looks like I got to it before it does any further damage as the stringers and the wood look good. It's dirty but this is going to be my before picture. I haven't done anything except find what wrong with mine before it goes out for it's first fun run in April on the Chesapeake….

Another thing AMH did in '94 was to change the layout of the stringers, also to use two courses of 3/4" plywood for stringer material and to include
the "covers" from the stringer tops to the chine. Donzi later used composite materials for stringers and transoms on some boats and, seemingly,
from year to year.
The problem w/some boats where those side compartments aren't well drained, the stringers and other parts would rot w/o any way to know it.
I'm not sure the covers are really a good idea from a longevity standpoint unless everything is changed to Coosa or some other composite material if
rot sets in. One good idea is to improve drainage into those unseen compartments.
Here are some pictures of a members boat where some rather extensive repairs were done.



http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=85540&d=1233108247



http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=85541&d=1233108084

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=85539&d=1233108084

FarPoint
01-01-2017, 09:00 PM
Why does it always seem to be the boats w the red stripes??

KrausMotorSports
01-01-2017, 11:25 PM
Another thing AMH did in '94 was to change the layout of the stringers, also to use two courses of 3/4" plywood for stringer material and to include
the "covers" from the stringer tops to the chine. Donzi later used composite materials for stringers and transoms on some boats and, seemingly,
from year to year.
The problem w/some boats where those side compartments aren't well drained, the stringers and other parts would rot w/o any way to know it.
I'm not sure the covers are really a good idea from a longevity standpoint unless everything is changed to Koosa or some other composite material if
rot sets in. One good idea is to improve drainage into those unseen compartments.
Here are some pictures of a members boat where some rather extensive repairs were done.



http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=85540&d=1233108247



http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=85541&d=1233108084

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=85539&d=1233108084


Thank you! Thank You sir! Good info to know.


Why does it always seem to be the boats w the red stripes??

good point I've noticed it too! Mine needs an entire paint job. It has the blisters everywhere and needs to be stripped and redone. I took ownership knowing this in hopes to saving another classic from abuse.

FarPoint
01-02-2017, 10:03 PM
OK. That took about 5 minutes.
I knew it was deteriorated, but it kinda jumped off the bulkhead and into the shop vac.
No scraper needed or used. Came off so fast it gagged the shop vac.
Good thing I went ahead. I think the 502 woulda snorted it all up at WOT.
Bilge pump fixed (broken ground wire), and trailer complete.
Apologies for the bad picture - shop lites went out at the end of the day.

Morgan's Cloud
01-03-2017, 07:42 AM
Looks like my earlier remark about being difficult to remove was based on the belief that the original stuff was glued on like I do things .. lol

FarPoint
01-06-2017, 01:09 AM
It's either the egg crate foam or the diamond plate. Foil is out.
Everything else looks OK and dry in there. No soft or rotted spots.
Kind of wierd to see that bulkhead screwed into place though. Not that it's flailing around or broken, but I'm comparing it to the way parts are attached to the Skater - and these boats are worlds apart.
Bonus - just picked up a bunch of stainless hardware to retro fit to the trailer disc brakes. Pins, sleeves, and new bushings for all 4 claipers. Finished servicing the brakes a couple of days ago, and the original parts cleaned up well, but I'm going for the update! Oh, well, it'll come apart easy.

FarPoint
01-06-2017, 08:38 AM
Found something additional about the Kodiak brakes on the trailer that may be of use.
The early calipers can be easily serviced using readily available GM parts. The kits are cheap!
My calipers and pads are great - but good to know if you're on the road somewhere needing parts. (been there - Wyoming -winter)
Chart is from Kodiak's service manual.

gcarter
01-06-2017, 01:49 PM
Found something additional about the Kodiak brakes on the trailer that may be of use.
The early calipers can be easily serviced using readily available GM parts. The kits are cheap!
My calipers and pads are great - but good to know if you're on the road somewhere needing parts. (been there - Wyoming -winter)
Chart is from Kodiak's service manual.

Someone had told me they interchanged w/some GM brakes, but I didn't know which.
I've noticed the Kodiak sourced pads don't hold up real good.
This is good info!
ThanksS

yeller
01-06-2017, 07:26 PM
That's good info to have. I'm assuming that's for the calipers on Kodiaks 10", 5-bolt brake set?
Any idea if those cars are good for caliper parts? The numbers listed are for the pads only.

Pismo
01-07-2017, 10:30 AM
In my 1996 22 I have the covers from the stringer tops to the side. There is also a huge drain hole thru the string so water does not get trapped. There is an access plate on each side which I leave out for ventilation.

Fishermanjm
01-07-2017, 11:37 AM
Do most of u guyz have disc trailer breaks???
I stuck with the drums an added my own flush
kit to them. For me it was cheaper than converting
to disc. Just wondering how they work out. Do they feel any different

Ghost
01-07-2017, 11:44 AM
I have discs. Much better than the drums I had before, but hard to do apples to apples on that since so much changed. (Surge to electric/hydraulic, 40 yrs old to all new, etc)

KrausMotorSports
01-07-2017, 11:49 AM
In my 1996 22 I have the covers from the stringer tops to the side. There is also a huge drain hole thru the string so water does not get trapped. There is an access plate on each side which I leave out for ventilation.

That just vents the same section with the engine mounts. In the earlier post you can see there is a section at the very back of the boat. My 96 doesn't have any drain holes for the back side only the same ones you mentioned.


Do most of u guyz have disc trailer breaks???
I stuck with the drums an added my own flush
kit to them. For me it was cheaper than converting
to disc. Just wondering how they work out. Do they feel any different

Mine has drums as well and the original flush system. Boat came from Kentucky and trailer from Florida. I need to do all new bearings and brakes as well.

yeller
01-07-2017, 01:19 PM
In my 1996 22 I have the covers from the stringer tops to the side. There is also a huge drain hole thru the string so water does not get trapped. There is an access plate on each side which I leave out for ventilation.As KMS said, not all the "compartments" under the "shelf" are drained. On my 2004 there were 2 drain holes through the stringers, but by probing the holes and checking through the top access cover, I could tell there were more than 2 "compartments". I used the access hole to drill through and effectively join a couple of the the compartments.


Do most of u guyz have disc trailer breaks???
I stuck with the drums an added my own flush
kit to them. For me it was cheaper than converting
to disc. Just wondering how they work out. Do they feel any differentThere is nothing wrong with drum brakes, especially on the size of our trailers. Drums have excellent stopping power, they just require more maintenance, and the adjustment should be checked regularly as they don't self adjust as well as they do on cars/trucks. I've never done a back to back comparison between drum/disc brakes, but I do remember reading an article from a brake manufacturer (somewhere) that said drum brakes actually work better on lighter trailers, because they require less hydraulic pressure to work. I.E: a heavy trailer applies more force to the actuator which would result in a higher hydraulic pressure. From what I gleaned, a trailer for a 22 could land in the lighter trailer category.

FarPoint
01-07-2017, 01:34 PM
Yeller, re post #21 above (tried "Relpy w Quote" - didn't work) according to my trailer guy, the caliper kits (boots and seals at least) are interchangeable w GM as well. And cheap.
But he did say for the early Kodiak calipers. I guess they used GM or a copy??
And if you look at the bottom of the pic I attached, there is a part number which I think applies to their affected caliper.
Off to see if the stainless hardware fits....

FarPoint
01-07-2017, 01:48 PM
Fisherman - I wouldn't bother converting to discs if you're happy w the drums.
I have 2 trailers w 4 wheel disc, and just ordered a new aluminum trailer w 4 wheel drum brakes.
Both disc and drums work well when regularly serviced. Keep them washed down, bled, and full of good, fresh brake fluid.
If you run drums you can at least back the trailer up a bit on fairly flat ground without activating the brake lockout.
With discs, they come on so fast that you either need an electric bypass wired into the back up lights on your vehicle, or the lockout switch. Even on flat ground.
If your drum brakes need major service, don't buy all the pieces separately (cylinders, springs, shoes, etc) just buy a complete backing plate assembly. Preferably galvanized. Its cheaper and way faster to install.

yeller
01-07-2017, 01:50 PM
Thanks for that info. That part number applies to the pads, so I was curious if the calipers were the same. I already checked the pad price and it is a third the cost using a GM part. It's even better news knowing that at least some of the caliper parts are also available.



In reference to my post #26, I tried to find the brake article I had read. Couldn't find it but did come across this:
http://www.championtrailers.com/disc-versus-drum-brakes/

It explains the virtues of drum brakes on light trailers quite well. It uses an 18' and 22' as examples and says the 18 would be better off with drums and the 22 with discs.
Personally, I would never go back to drums on any size trailer, simply because discs are so much simpler to change and require far less maintenance.

FarPoint
01-07-2017, 02:04 PM
Once you go heavier discs are probably the way to go. Especially here in the BC mountains. "Highway thu Hell" is where we trailer.
The Skater is about 7,000 lbs and I'm glad to have the discs when I'm pulling that. Best thing I did on that one was to get rid of the factory surge brake set up and go w electric / hydraulic. It's also a legal requirement here. They don't pick up on it at the inspection station, but it is a requirement above 5800 GVW.
Not sure about elsewhere, and I did see a large (38ft??) Cigarette here on a licensed and inspected Triple axle steel trailer w surge brakes. On only 2 axles. That's gotta be WAY over 5800 GVW.
Scary stuff. I guess it was legal somewhere. Sometime.

gcarter
01-07-2017, 03:02 PM
It's my understanding that here in Florida a brake per wheel is required. I know this is never inspected by the LEOs,
and older trailers must grandfather in. I never see brakes on construction trailers, even overloaded w/tractors,
mowers, forklifts, etc.

When I rebuilt my tandem aluminum trailer on my 22C, I included stainless Kodiak brakes since I'm never more than
75 miles from salt water.
I can tell you they work very well and I can actually hear the tires squealing just short of lockup under heavy braking.
I included a new Titan surge actuator, and a solenoid tied into the backup lights.

If I owned an AMH built boat w/plywood stringers, I would saw a 1-1/4"- 1-1/2" hole into every compartment
and seal the perimeter of the holes w/penetrating epoxy.

Pismo
01-08-2017, 03:57 PM
That just vents the same section with the engine mounts. In the earlier post you can see there is a section at the very back of the boat. My 96 doesn't have any drain holes for the back side only the same ones you mentioned.



Mine has drums as well and the original flush system. Boat came from Kentucky and trailer from Florida. I need to do all new bearings and brakes as well.

Mine are connected, must have been the previous owner's doing..

Pismo
01-08-2017, 03:58 PM
Lots of topics in this thread, all good stuff tho..

FarPoint
01-23-2017, 07:25 PM
I decided to go with the factory style egg crate foam. Available locally, and i tend toward keeping things fairly original. Haven't had much Donzi time due to boat show mayhem, but just made up a great template, cut out the foam, and (assuming it glues in OK) i have exactly enough left over to do it again. So once I actually complete the install, if anyone wants the egg crate foam, let me know. I'll even shape it for you. The foam was fairly inexpensive, the template easy to make, and there would be shipping- but it will be available. No charge for the foam.
As long as I don't get ovcome by glue fumes and do a bad install on 1st piece.
Will post pics when done.

yeller
01-25-2017, 10:20 PM
I decided to go with the factory style egg crate foam.
Can't you tell this thread is about trailers and "compartment" drainage?? Geez...:rolleyes: ;)

KrausMotorSports
05-28-2017, 10:32 AM
Mine are connected, must have been the previous owner's doing..

And mine will be as of today when I cut them out! I put off some people today to try and get my own stuff worked on….:bonk:


Can't you tell this thread is about trailers and "compartment" drainage?? Geez...:rolleyes: ;)

I mean I thought I had Attention Deficit disorder but I guess we all do in this hobby. :nilly: HAHA But it's all good info! I'm a bit late to the party though. Took on a big career change. And my attention to projects was put way on the back burner.