18' Donzi vs 20' Cig vs 22' Donzi

[Pat McPherson]

Weighing options and I thought I'd start a thread.

I've owned an 18' Donzi Classic, 20' Donzi Minx, and currently in my 4th year owning a 22' Donzi Classic.

At some point down the line I'd like to own a 20' Cig and there is the one for sail down in MD that Greg pointed out. I spoke to the fellow, Steve, and his boat might work for me.

I've been talking about down sizing from my 22 to an 18, but hey maybe in between...

I've not ever driven or ridden in a 20' Cig, but I've been told they ride/handle rough water very well for there size.

Help me fill in the blanks.

18' Donzi Classic:
18' 0"
approx. weight 2700lbs
preferred power - 300+HP small block
good ride in up to 2ft waves and can be used for pulling skiers and other

20' Cig:
19'7"
approx. weight 2500lbs ? I don't believe what I'm reading on line...
preferred power ? small block or big block ? pros-cons ?
good ride in up to ?ft waves. Can it be used for pulling skiers and other?

22' Donzi Classic:
22' 6"
approx. weight 3500lbs
preferred power - 400+HP big block
good ride in up to 3ft waves and not good for pulling skiers and other

In short, looking for opinions to help me decide if I just stick with what I got, or sell?
If I sell, do I buy an 18' Donzi or hold out for a 20' Cig?
Is the 20' Cig a happy medium between these great old classic boats?

[gcarter]

The Cig hull and the Donzi Minx and 22 hulls are really different.
The widest point of the Cig hull is at the transom as apposed to Donzi which is further forward,
this is to allow BBC's as the "go to" engine. It seems the Cig hull is like a 24'-25' boat w/ 4" or 5' cut off.
This is the main reason the Cig is easier to accomplish higher speeds with.
The Cig is designed to sit relatively level in the water w/a BBC due to the greater broader beam at the transom.

[Ghost]

To help address your question, can you give a little more info about your interest in downsizing? Less fuel burn? Less to maintain? Want to do more skiing or boarding? Something easier for kids to handle solo?

i would *think* the Cig would do as well or better than an 18 for skiing and such. Plus it has a nice locker in front of the windshield. I know when it came out, they showed it pulling a skier in the brochure.

84980

[Pat McPherson]

Yes, I would like to ski a few times per year. I would like to be able to store in my garage (26' deep). Don't care about gas, but sure less to wash and wax is helpful. Kids not driving solo in any of these, we have a CC for them.

[Greg Guimond]

.............................

[mattyboy]

Ghost that is not a cigarette brochure it is a licensed splash by glaspar brochure I fell for this too but after I tried to build the history on the cig 19 I found out it was a glaspar brochure


http://www.classicglasspars.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=18:1974-don-twenty&catid=98&Itemid=273


the 20 cig is by far the best of the lot they are Tanks close to 4000 lbs and all of 20 feet they did change over time the early ones were like the 16 round keel short inner strakes designed for a small block and had the front storage locker and side lockers in the bilge. then they reworked the deck a bit and made the cockpit a tad smaller and the bilge bigger and put a big block in it they also made it more like the 18 and lengthened the inner strakes gone were the side lockers

then they did away with the front locker and added a pad

spent quite a bit of time in the first cig 19 at wot speeds in a couple of poker runs it will take anything you throw at it within reason ( meaning rough water that you would go out in a 24 and under boat

the 20 will take more of a beating than you can stand don't ask how I know that

if you want a small boat that can hang with the big boys 20 cig we were in the first of 4 groups with 150 go fast boats our goal was not to fall of the pace and stick with the first group we did and the copter kept coming back to us when you see shock and awe on the face of the photographer all you can do is hold on we were stuck in the mixed up water of 30 + boats and the boat handled it


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pt8-g3Dzvo

[jl1962]

IMO the 18' is a big, small boat and the Cig is a small, big boat, way bigger than an 18.
The Cig is also a lot rarer. If I boated in bigger water, it would be a great step up from an 18.
But I'm a Donzi guy!
;)

84985

[mattyboy]

yes the 20 cig is rarer as a benchmark Donzi made 160+ Minx in roughly 3 plus years

Cigarette Racing made 146 or so in 34 years

When I was at the 20 cig run in Ohio back in 06 we had the first and last one ever made a lot of history in that parking lot during the pre run show

[roadtrip se]

and this thread is already full of opinions...

The 22 outrides, is more efficient, and easier to run than the other two by far.

The 18 is a small boat with small boat characteristics. Think jet ski on steroids.

The Cig, unless rigged and tested for hundreds of hours by Lipschutz, has a dead rise that is relatively flat, and can pound in the rough.

The 22 is longer. Lighter. And has an agressive deadrise that allows it to me more forgiving in the rough.

Fact.

[Ghost]

The 22 outrides, is more efficient, and easier to run than the other two by far.

The 18 is a small boat with small boat characteristics. Think jet ski on steroids.

The Cig, unless rigged and tested for hundreds of hours by Lipschutz, has a dead rise that is relatively flat, and can pound in the rough.

The 22 is longer. Lighter. And has an agressive deadrise that allows it to me more forgiving in the rough.

Fact.

What does Phil do that changes how the Cig 20 would otherwise "pound" in the rough?

In what way is the 22C "more efficient" than the 18C and the Cig 20?

[Ghost]

Ghost that is not a cigarette brochure it is a licensed splash by glaspar brochure I fell for this too but after I tried to build the history on the cig 19 I found out it was a glaspar brochure


http://www.classicglasspars.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=18:1974-don-twenty&catid=98&Itemid=273



Thanks! You also cleared up something that seemed wrong to me--I was under the impression that the Cig 20 started as the Cig 19, and thus it would make no sense for the "Don 20" that I posted to be the first iteration of the Cig. (Turns out, it wasn't.)

I suppose if I'd only looked at the pic more closely, I'd have seen it wasn't a Cig logo. :)

[Greg Guimond]

....................

[Pat McPherson]

Thank for info guys.
I have a good understanding of what an 18ft Donzi and 22ft Donzi are so more about what a 20ft Cig is/was?

Matt, do you know when the second gen 20' Cig came out?

Guys, thoughts on these older TRS boats?
I almost bought a 74 20' Cig from FLA or Matt's fiends boat prior to my 22 Donzi. I didn't because of the old Volvo drives with no trim on those boats.
I'd truly rather a mid 80s or newer boat with Alpha or Bravo but those are either impossible to find or very expensive.

[mattyboy]

Pat
I have not found the exact date but I think it was around 74-75 when they re did the deck for a BB. On the cig run I was at there was an older gentleman from the west coast with a 76-77 20 with a TRS he had since new was a nice boat tough ran around low 70s only issue was the brown and white color scheme IMO when you look at one check the strakes. Also look there was a member here who just restored a 20 cig up in lake George the thread is here that boat had the longer strakes and the bumped out hatch which was the 2nd gen. The pad came in the 90s

Ghost
I think Don may have sold one of the 19 molds to glaspar around the same time the cig 20 was re worked. Annual production numbers are low so he may have seen value in a license arrangement By early 1972 they had made 3 hulls before the HIN mandate the 4th hull gets the CRT20001 late 72 early 73 the don 20 has the flat hatch
Like the 19
Also Brownie tells a story about the flotation foam mandate for boats under 20 feet around this same time period the cig 19 now is a cig 20 the LOA is 19 feet 11.5 inches. This happens to the hornet but the hornet needs a few inches added to it but this doesn't happen right away 1976 or so with the hornet 2 I just saw a late 19 foot hornet 2+3 with foam all over the place

[mattyboy]

Pat
The pic jay posted is the boat that was restored

[Pat McPherson]

Pat
The pic jay posted is the boat that was restored

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?68190-Cigarette-20-Project

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=73874&d=1353968469
Great pic showing the 22 and 20 from above. The cockpit looks about the same size.

[mattyboy]

Phil L. does some awesome work here are a few that Phil had resto-mod'd the newer ones had no front locker but had a bigger fiberglass fairing making them look like a bigger cig hence the son of a gun in fact one cig owner who had a Gladiator named Maximus had Phil do a copy in a 20 called Lil maximus even put staggered scoops on the 20 to make it look like the gladiator

many of the older 20s at the run were updated to have the front benchseat like the son of a gun but still have the front locker and no fairing

[Ghost]

Nice pics. I'm with you--seen some of Phil's boats and they're amazing. Gorgeous, and they scoot.

[mattyboy]

I was looking for bottom shots

here is a pic of the son of a gun with the pad and a BH drive Phil's brothers boat

[roadtrip se]

What does Phil do that changes how the Cig 20 would otherwise "pound" in the rough?

In what way is the 22C "more efficient" than the 18C and the Cig 20?

Well, let's see here, I'll restate that I have been in all three, and this is my opinion, based on my personal experiences.

But beyond this...

To the 20. I have spent a lot of time talking with Phil over the years. We truly enjoyed the posse of Cig 20s
that he got to participate at the Awakening . He probably knows these boats better than anyone else.
He said several times that he would love to tune a 22, because he knew the boat had several inherent advantages
to the hull over the 20. The things I already mentioned, a longer more efficient hull, less weight, and a more
aggressive dead rise.

As for Phil's tweaks, they are endless. The primary ingredients being big power, extension boxes, long tabs,
weight reduction, and the infamous Blackhawk drive. All of this being said, I witnessed most of the Cigs run
the shoreline looking for cover and smooth water at every run I had the luck to see them at over the past ten years.
This isn't an indictment of the boats, Phil does fantastic things with them. And he may get a shot at the Flowerpot,
if Powerball evers comes in. Or I would buy the 20 and enjoy both!

To the 18. In stock form, it gives up length and freeboard to the 22, which makes it a hoot, but you certainly can't
run it as hard in the rough for the same reasons. And before somebody pulls out a Geeo video, I said in stock form.
We had one of the hottest stock 18's ever built by AMH in the form of a Scorpion boat, and it was not as capable as
my 22 in any way.

My personal experience... Cheers!

Edit: Added a shot of the nicest 20 in existence.

[gcarter]

Back to my post above........where I said the 20's widest point is at the transom.
Take a look at the #2 picture in Matty's post above and notice how the chine to
chine at the transom is as wide or wider than at the rubrail.
The wider dimension there makes for the possibility of greater displacement in
the stern, i.e., better able to carry a BBC w/o any penalty like a Minx, or an 18
w/a BBC by looking like it's sinking. A Cig 20 just isn't the same as a Donzi of
the same size.
Taking all the ingredients of a 20 w/the broader beam at the waterline,
less deadrise, and all the add ons that Todd mentioned probably makes a better,
higher performance20' boat

[CHACHI]

Here is one owned by Dave Heffering (Snoboater on the board) 540 power.

Ken

[Ghost]

[/QUOTE]
...The 22 outrides, is more efficient, and easier to run than the other two by far.
...
The Cig, unless rigged and tested for hundreds of hours by Lipschutz, has a dead rise that is relatively flat, and can pound in the rough.
...
Fact.


What does Phil do that changes how the Cig 20 would otherwise "pound" in the rough?

In what way is the 22C "more efficient" than the 18C and the Cig 20?


Well, let's see here, I'll restate that I have been in all three, and this is my opinion, based on my personal experiences.

But beyond this...

To the 20. I have spent a lot of time talking with Phil over the years. We truly enjoyed the posse of Cig 20s
that he got to participate at the Awakening . He probably knows these boats better than anyone else.
He said several times that he would love to tune a 22, because he knew the boat had several inherent advantages
to the hull over the 20. The things I already mentioned, a longer more efficient hull, less weight, and a more
aggressive dead rise.

As for Phil's tweaks, they are endless. The primary ingredients being big power, extension boxes, long tabs,
weight reduction, and the infamous Blackhawk drive. All of this being said, I witnessed most of the Cigs run
the shoreline looking for cover and smooth water at every run I had the luck to see them at over the past ten years.
This isn't an indictment of the boats, Phil does fantastic things with them. And he may get a shot at the Flowerpot,
if Powerball evers comes in. Or I would buy the 20 and enjoy both!

To the 18. In stock form, it gives up length and freeboard to the 22, which makes it a hoot, but you certainly can't
run it as hard in the rough for the same reasons. And before somebody pulls out a Geeo video, I said in stock form.
We had one of the hottest stock 18's ever built by AMH in the form of a Scorpion boat, and it was not as capable as
my 22 in any way.

My personal experience... Cheers!

Edit: Added a shot of the nicest 20 in existence.

Thanks, that's all interesting info, though it still leaves me sorta lost on the answers to my two questions Above. Been a long day on rough water but I think I can explain my confusion. Since there's a fair chunk of explanatory content below, I'll highlight the three actual questions in bold.

On the efficiency question above, I was trying to understand specifically what you meant when you said the 22C was more efficient than the Cig. I gather from your post above that Phil told you the 22 hull is more efficient, but do you know technically what he meant by that? (If not that's fine--just trying to understand.) To clarify, in order for 'more efficient' to mean anything, it has to refer to something specific like 'less drag and more speed with equal power' or 'less drag per pound of displacement' or something like that. I don't doubt Phil's expertise even for an instant. Just looking to pick up some knowledge here as the term is more than a little tantalizing for those of us who've spent hours pondering hydrodynamics. :) Do you know what Phil meant by 'more efficient?'

I'm similarly lost with the claim that the 22C is more efficient than the 18C. You noted that it's longer and has more freeboard, and can be run harder in the rough. But none of that's efficiency. What's the efficiency advantage of the 22C over the 18C? Apologies if I am missing it in your post quoted above.

On the question of "what does Phil do that changes how the Cig 20 would otherwise 'pound' in the rough?"...thanks for listing some of the tweaks Phil uses like big power, long tabs, shaving weight, extension boxes, Blackhawk drives sometimes. I've noticed those (other than the weight reduction, which was new info to me) on the boats he's brought to AOTH, and I've seen the boats run. Other than the long tabs (which I don't claim to understand the utility of) all those tweaks strike me as obvious contributors to the amazing, stable speeds he has achieved.

But where I'm still lost is how any of what you listed takes a hull that would otherwise 'pound' in the rough and makes it not. For the boats he put Blackhawks on, I suppose the counter-rotation might stop them from being torqued over wave tops and bow-steering. Maybe there's some magic with the tabs? My sense has been the same as what you described--that Phil's boats were looking for smooth water to take advantage of all his ultra-high-speed and associated stability add-ons.

But other than your post earlier, I'd never heard a claim that those tweaks eliminated any pounding that the stock 20 hull would take in rough water. Do you have any insight as to how any of those tweaks Phil makes would actually do that? Again, if we don't know, we don't know, and that's fine. Just trying to connect any reduction of pounding to the specific rigging tweaks that mostly seem intuitively disconnected to me. (I took my best stab with the BH's lack of torque-over with the hull out of the water, for the boats that were equipped with BH drives. I've pondered counter-rotating drives for my Cig 24 for this very reason.)

[mattyboy]

George C

now that I think about it the early cig and the minx hull have a lot in common the hulls except for beam are very similar round keeled short strake plus the side arm rest panels in the cockpit

I have a pic of the cig 19 upside down I need to find it great shot of the hull

I love Snoboater's 20 that is one of my favorite color schemes

[roadtrip se]

Thanks, that's all interesting info, though it still leaves me sorta lost on the answers to my two questions Above. Been a long day on rough water but I think I can explain my confusion. Since there's a fair chunk of explanatory content below, I'll highlight the three actual questions in bold.

On the efficiency question above, I was trying to understand specifically what you meant when you said the 22C was more efficient than the Cig. I gather from your post above that Phil told you the 22 hull is more efficient, but do you know technically what he meant by that? (If not that's fine--just trying to understand.) To clarify, in order for 'more efficient' to mean anything, it has to refer to something specific like 'less drag and more speed with equal power' or 'less drag per pound of displacement' or something like that. I don't doubt Phil's expertise even for an instant. Just looking to pick up some knowledge here as the term is more than a little tantalizing for those of us who've spent hours pondering hydrodynamics. :) Do you know what Phil meant by 'more efficient?'

I'm similarly lost with the claim that the 22C is more efficient than the 18C. You noted that it's longer and has more freeboard, and can be run harder in the rough. But none of that's efficiency. What's the efficiency advantage of the 22C over the 18C? Apologies if I am missing it in your post quoted above.

On the question of "what does Phil do that changes how the Cig 20 would otherwise 'pound' in the rough?"...thanks for listing some of the tweaks Phil uses like big power, long tabs, shaving weight, extension boxes, Blackhawk drives sometimes. I've noticed those (other than the weight reduction, which was new info to me) on the boats he's brought to AOTH, and I've seen the boats run. Other than the long tabs (which I don't claim to understand the utility of) all those tweaks strike me as obvious contributors to the amazing, stable speeds he has achieved.

But where I'm still lost is how any of what you listed takes a hull that would otherwise 'pound' in the rough and makes it not. For the boats he put Blackhawks on, I suppose the counter-rotation might stop them from being torqued over wave tops and bow-steering. Maybe there's some magic with the tabs? My sense has been the same as what you described--that Phil's boats were looking for smooth water to take advantage of all his ultra-high-speed and associated stability add-ons.

But other than your post earlier, I'd never heard a claim that those tweaks eliminated any pounding that the stock 20 hull would take in rough water. Do you have any insight as to how any of those tweaks Phil makes would actually do that? Again, if we don't know, we don't know, and that's fine. Just trying to connect any reduction of pounding to the specific rigging tweaks that mostly seem intuitively disconnected to me. (I took my best stab with the BH's lack of torque-over with the hull out of the water, for the boats that were equipped with BH drives. I've pondered counter-rotating drives for my Cig 24 for this very reason.)[/QUOTE]






In regards to hull efficiency, my experience combined with my interactions with Phil lead me to believe that the combination of length, deadrise, and weight make the 22 more responsive to performance upgrades than the 20. This is why I listed these attributes.

I don't think anything Phil does eliminates the pounding of these hulls completely, hence the reason I described the shore hugging behavior at AOTH. Another really neat nugget that I picked up on from watching Phil prepare is that he would plot his entire course on GPS for the longer runs to optimize his distance and placement on the lake. This was in addition to having sea level charts to optimize his fuel curve as well. You can take the racer out of the race, but...

I didn't say that the 22 was more efficient than the 18. What I said was that the sheer size disadvantage gives the 22 the leg up in bigger water and higher speeds.

[Ghost]

I don't think anything Phil does eliminates the pounding of these hulls completely, hence the reason I described the shore hugging behavior at AOTH. Another really neat nugget that I picked up on from watching Phil prepare is that he would plot his entire course on GPS for the longer runs to optimize his distance and placement on the lake. This was in addition to having sea level charts to optimize his fuel curve as well. You can take the racer out of the race, but...It’s interesting about the course-plotting and such. I seem to recall seeing (and hearing about) a Cig or two running pretty aggressive course lines that way at AOTH—this would further explain/corroborate that. And I’ve witnessed it myself for a few seconds, before the boats got really little and then vanished. I've seen Stan drive the line the same way, from within the boat. As you say, racer's instinct. On the pounding front, sounds like we don’t know which if any of the tweaks we’ve talked about actually do anything to lessen pounding, and if so, how they do it. Best guess I have is still the removal of torque-over when the hull leaves the water. I don’t understand tabs to minimize pounding, unless it’s just about trying to keep the sharpness of the bow down in the snot. Which sounds like something that’d make sense at relatively low speeds for those Cigs. It made sense in my Nova down in the 25-40 mph range. I sort of assume up at high speed, it risks having hooking a tab in an ugly way. But I don’t know, just speculating.



[Phil] said several times that he would love to tune a 22, because he knew the boat had several inherent advantages to the hull over the 20. The things I already mentioned, a longer more efficient hull, less weight, and a more
aggressive dead rise.
In regards to hull efficiency, my experience combined with my interactions with Phil lead me to believe that the combination of length, deadrise, and weight make the 22 more responsive to performance upgrades than the 20. This is why I listed these attributes.Thanks, understood—I think I get it now. We don’t know the specifics about what ‘more efficient’ meant when Phil said it, it’s still a vague notion of efficiency. Could be max speed per unit horsepower, drag per pound, something about where one of those curves hits (or doesn’t hit) a wall, something that normalizes power requirements for hull length (where more hull length is always desirable for spanning waves and staying on top) etc. I'm not sure it's actually lighter, but maybe. (That could vary with different builds in different eras.) I wonder if the Cig is slightly wider? To George's point about the width at the chine? Feels to me like the 22C might end up with a narrower running surface. (Sidebar: "aggressive deadrise" usually is less efficient, no? Flatter is faster with the same power, more deadrise typically takes more power to reach the same speed.)



The 22 outrides, is more efficient, and easier to run than the other two by far.
...
Fact.
In what way is the 22C "more efficient" than the 18C and the Cig 20?


I didn't say I that the 22 was more efficient than the 18. What I said was that the sheer size disadvantage gives the 22 the leg up in bigger water and higher speeds.
LOL, perhaps you THOUGHT you didn’t? ;)

[roadtrip se]

Sorry about that. Reality, an 18 isn't going to be as efficient as a 22 in the same conditions, because it will be in the water less, so back to my freeboard and length jet-ski argument. Again, not that 18's can't be an absolute riot as attested by Jill's Scorpion 18.

No one runs a Blackhawk drive and deals with all of the associated BS that comes with it for anything other than speed. The pad bottom Cig 20s see an additional 8-10 mph from that drive. The handling at re-entry is less a concern than blowing the smithereens out of the vertical shaft. All BH boats tend to benefit from a lot of tab used sparingly, because the back end of the boat is literally surfing at times, when on top of the water. This is also the reasoning for the extension boxes to give the props cleaner water, when the surf is up. All of this setup for the BH drive.

I understand plotting a line. I do it all the time. It is actually safer for those around you, if they understand how to run in a pack, because your actions are more predictable. This isn't what I saw happening with the Cig crew at AOTH. They were plotting 50 mile courses looking for smooth water conditions away from the rest of the crowd. The gotcha was that in heavy lumber seasons, the stuff tends to be thicker towards shore, so they would get caught on ocassion

Deadrise, pads, and running surfaces are a whole other ball of wax. Let's just say that no one has convinced me yet, that a 22 benefits from a pad, like the 20 Cig does. Voodoo.

I really miss running with those guys. The boats are awesome, and I learned something every time they showed up to run. Good days.

[Carl C]

This Cig 20 was on Lake Oakland a couple weeks ago. He said it runs 65 with a 454. It has a sharp keel. It was a busy day on the pond so we couldn't run hard at all.

[jl1962]

A few more of Ken's 19 - what a pretty boat!

85013

85014

[Ghost]

It's off-the-charts beautiful. No such thing as too many pics... :)

[Rob M]

A few more of Ken's 19 - what a pretty boat!

85013

85014

Love this boat. Where did it end up?

[LITTLE MAX]

Here are some photos of 20' Cig. (Lil Max) that was done by Phil Lip Ship back in 2006

[Carl C]

Pics altered to show bottoms. Why do almost all Cig 20s have giant k-planes when most agree that a 22 Classic needs minimal, if any, tabs?

[undertaker]

All this talk about CIG 20's and running with CIG 20's got me thinking......There use to be a cig 20 run in Oct if memory serves me correct and they would also invite the Donzi guys....is this still an event? I also loved running with the cig guys at AOTH and would love to do this event this yr if it still happens.....


Undertaker

[Greg Guimond]

...............

[Pat McPherson]

Thank you for all the replies and great pictures!
I too wish that I could increase my fleet to include both a Donzi Classic and a 20' Cig...

One question I also have is why large tabs on the 20' Cig but not 22' Donzi? I have the short K-Planes and have thought of swapping to the 280s but... I did notice when I load on the trailer on Sunday that I had a lot of port tab down. I would think it would take a lot less angle if I had 280s and that would be more effective / efficient... thought?

[Pat McPherson]

Sunday boat ride with whole crew... I think that's the 3rd time this year...

[roadtrip se]

You won't see the long tabs on the typical, Classic Cig.

The Extension box Blackhawk boats do better with the longer tabs due to the surface drive handling characteristics. The tabs give more control, keep the transom of the boat from sliding around as much with the turbulence, and effectively extend the length of the hull while keeping the nose down, as well.

The Blackhawk Donzis also respond to more tab than the typical 22 Classic. You can't effectively control the BH Donzi without them. You literally turn this boat with the tabs.

As for swapping out to bigger tabs on a Bravo Donzi, I wouldn't do it. Your just more likely to hook a tab at speed, and the boat shouldn't really need a lot of tab to start with.

[mattyboy]

This Cig 20 was on Lake Oakland a couple weeks ago. He said it runs 65 with a 454. It has a sharp keel. It was a busy day on the pond so we couldn't run hard at all.

Carl,
nice Cig,good looking boat but not a 20 it has a character line on the hull sides and the 20 never had a sharp keel only rounded or pad bottom from the factory looks like a 24

in all the pics I have it is hard to compare apples to apples as each one is a tad different only 2 of them are really stock. some had pads some didn't, If you look at the brown and white one you'll see that is setup not all too much different than a stock 22trs big block stock tabs if you look at the one next to it the red and black the X dim is so high it is working it's way back up thru the alphabet

[mattyboy]

Love this boat. Where did it end up?


a few years ago was purchased by someone in Florida on her way as she left the lake she spent her whole life on

[Greg Guimond]

....................

[Carl C]

Carl,
nice Cig,good looking boat but not a 20 it has a character line on the hull sides and the 20 never had a sharp keel only rounded or pad bottom from the factory looks like a 24

in all the pics I have it is hard to compare apples to apples as each one is a tad different only 2 of them are really stock. some had pads some didn't, If you look at the brown and white one you'll see that is setup not all too much different than a stock 22trs big block stock tabs if you look at the one next to it the red and black the X dim is so high it is working it's way back up thru the alphabet

I have since found out that it is a 24. Never knew there was a Cig 24!

[Morgan's Cloud]

I have since found out that it is a 24. Never knew there was a Cig 24!

Ghost , amongst a few others , will not be impressed with your lack of awareness.
If you didn't know there was a Cig 24 imagine what else is out there that you've never heard of !

[Carl C]

Ghost , amongst a few others , will not be impressed with your lack of awareness.
If you didn't know there was a Cig 24 imagine what else is out there that you've never heard of !

Quite a bit I'm sure!:yes:

[Carl C]

Ghost , amongst a few others , will not be impressed with your lack of awareness.
If you didn't know there was a Cig 24 imagine what else is out there that you've never heard of !

Did you know that the Cig 24 evolved into the Banana 24? And the Cig 20 was based on a Glastron? At least that's what I was told.

[Redink]

Sunday boat ride with whole crew... I think that's the 3rd time this year...


Pat, Where was the picture taken?

Ken

[Morgan's Cloud]

Did you know that the Cig 24 evolved into the Banana 24? And the Cig 20 was based on a Glastron? At least that's what I was told.

I believe that the Cig 24 was a spin off of the Mag 25 , but yes , the Banana 24 was a derivative of the Cig 24 . Not sure about the Glastron rumour though . One would think that if anything the C18 was the inspiration for that .

[mattyboy]

they did a few versions of a 24 the one carl posted with the angled windshield, then the firefox, the early teak deck the firefox is the best looking boat ever Ghost would know more on it

[mattyboy]

cigs are the most copied boat in all sizes the 24 deep v style was made by many Excalibur python pantera then Don had the squardron 24

[Greg Guimond]

....................

[Morgan's Cloud]

they did a few versions of a 24 the one carl posted with the angled windshield, then the firefox, the early teak deck the firefox is the best looking boat ever Ghost would know more on it


I like the original wood deck the most . Not that I'd want to have to do the upkeep !

[Ghost]

they did a few versions of a 24 the one carl posted with the angled windshield, then the firefox, the early teak deck the firefox is the best looking boat ever Ghost would know more on it

Thanks. BTW, the teak deck boat shown (red on the red trailer) is actually mine, before I owned it and before the re-do, but largely as I bought it. :) I think that pic was taken by the owner in FL, just before it went to LOTO. Or by the owner in LOTO, from whom I bought it.

The Firefox is a bit of a mystery to me, for a couple reasons.

Beam: I've heard some people say the Firefox was a 7' beam boat but I don't think so. iBoats says 7'5 but I don't think that's right either. I don't know for sure. I've only seen one in person: the black Lip-Ship Firefox that was at AOTH a few years back, fresh off resto-modding and living in TX I think. It seemed to run with the same natural bow angle that mine does. Gun to my head, I'd say the hulls were the same from the rubrail down on all three: the early 70s teak deck "24" with twin sixes or small blocks, the late '70s? to early '80s? "24" with the single BBC, and the Firefox, also a single BBC I think. Both the original teak-deck ad and the Banana Boat ad show the same 23'11" length and 7'10" beam.

Molds: I believe Don sold the 24 molds to Charlie McCarthy for Banana boat, with an agreement that he needed to use a different top deck from the Cigs. The Banana deck is definitely different from the early teak boat, seems pretty similar to the late '70s single but with a different dash and cabin I think, and totally different from the Firefox. I wonder if there were a couple molds of the bottom and maybe Cig kept something that was used for the Firefox and/or the late-'70s 24. The Banana boat ad I've seen lists a Merc 188 as standard power, which would be circa 1977-1983 maybe? That's where I particularly wonder about how many molds there were, where they went, and when.

Weight: also a bit of a fuzzy mystery. The original '72 ad appears to say the twin-6 boat was approximately 4000lbs. Charlie McCarthy's ad says 3800, which could be close, given no teak inlay. But, it was a single engine boat, where the Cig had the twins. Hmmm. iBoats lists the Firefox at something like 6250 lbs with a single engine but feels like they have to be smoking crack. I converted mine from inline sixes to a single 496HO. I believe that saved 400-600 lbs, based on the waterline change and other math. I'd guess mine was currently between 4000 and 4400. I suspect the original "4000 (approximate)" in the 1972 ad was very approximate, and a bit low.

Dates: the teak decked boat with twins appears to have been announced in '72 and I've seen ads showing it until '75 I think. Looking at the prices, it was way above the 19/20 but just a smidge below the 28, perhaps contributing to few sales. That and caring for the wood. It was definitely called the "24." The next, with a single and no teak, I've heard said started in the late '70s and went to the early '80s, but I don't know for sure. Pretty sure it was called the "24" as well. The only ad I have on it shows the motor options as a Merc 370HP and a Merc Cyclone 400, if that helps with dates. I looked up the Cyclone 400 and someone said it was offered from '80 to '86, which falls in the time range. The Firefox was made from '88-''92 according to iBoats. That could be right, but given the world of marketing, I'd have thought it would have started closer to the release of the film (1982). I'm very fuzzy on facts there however, just speculating that it would have come out in '83 or '84. The fin-style deck rear and such feel like it had to have inspired by the plane/film.

(In hindsight, I guess this'd be easier to discuss with some better names. Perhaps, the teak 24 twin, the 24 single and of course the Firefox. :) )

Speed: the 1972 ad said the teak 24 twin would do 55. No way. Mine did 44 with upgraded inline six 292s. Some old Lake St Clair speed regatta records show one at about 47 I think. That makes sense to me. The 24 single ad said 45 cruise and 60 top end for the 370HP, 62 for the Cyclone 400. This seems dead on to me. Converted to the 496HO, mine will top out in the low to mid 60s. With all the stars lined up, she's been over 66 GPS. No idea about the Firefox. iBoats seems to think it was available with factory singles from 365HP to 511HP. 511? More crack? :)

[Carl C]

Here's another shot of the 24 on Lake Oakland:

http://i763.photobucket.com/albums/xx275/CARLC222/IMG_0070_zpsk9h2bvk3.jpg (http://s763.photobucket.com/user/CARLC222/media/IMG_0070_zpsk9h2bvk3.jpg.html)

[Pat McPherson]

Pat, Where was the picture taken?

Ken

I've been keeping my boats on trailer at Castle marina in Chester for the past 14-15 seasons. We do 90% of our boating in the CT River; probably closer to 95% these days. We get to the LI sound 4-5 times per year...

[Pat McPherson]

cigs are the most copied boat in all sizes the 24 deep v style was made by many Excalibur python pantera then Don had the squardron 24

My dad had a late 70s Excal with 400/454 TRS. I've had an 89 Pantera and 97 Super...

I think the 24' Cigs and Bananas have wider beam...

[Greg Guimond]

....................

[Greg Guimond]

...............................

[Pat McPherson]

I sure like the 1973 price better than the 1995...:boggled:

[mattyboy]

My dad had a late 70s Excal with 400/454 TRS. I've had an 89 Pantera and 97 Super...

I think the 24' Cigs and Bananas have wider beam...


yes all are a tad different probably part of the 10% rule


here are a few more pics of the black cig and a cig i was looking at buying guy wante da ton of cash for it and it was not worth it especially after it was washed off it's lift during Irene and had the mahwah river running thru it

[Morgan's Cloud]

I sure like the 1973 price better than the 1995...:boggled:

And to think we thought they were expensive in '73 !

[gcarter]

yes all are a tad different probably part of the 10% rule


here are a few more pics of the black cig and a cig i was looking at buying guy wante da ton of cash for it and it was not worth it especially after it was washed off it's lift during Sandy and had the mahwah river running thru it

Matty, I take it this boat is an early one?

[gcarter]

An' doncha know black would be a great boat for here in the
South!

[mattyboy]

George


yes the black one is the first cig 19/20 built in late fall 71 and purchased from Don in early 72 the one that fell off the lift was several years ago and was a later boat

the black was not all that bad in NY in Fla at totally different story the yellow seats didn't get hot

[mattyboy]

the before pics

[jl1962]

Hard to believe it's the same boat.....

Did the same guy own the 18 as well?

[Kirk]

1972 Cigarette Open


8509485095

[mattyboy]

Hard to believe it's the same boat.....

Did the same guy own the 18 as well?

no that was from the storage rack at the marina when it was rescued the 18 wound up to be the cig's neighbor a few years later I think I have a pic of them side by side on their lifts

[Pat McPherson]

George


yes the black one is the first cig 19/20 built in late fall 71 and purchased from Don in early 72 the one that fell off the lift was several years ago and was a later boat

the black was not all that bad in NY in Fla at totally different story the yellow seats didn't get hot

My 1989 24' Pantera was black on sides and bottom but had white decks. It also had black interior and as you can imagine was not the best during summer months. Rather than changing the interior we sold and bought our 24' Superboat.

[Greg Guimond]

Have you decided to focus on finding a Cigarette to replace your 22 ?

[Pat McPherson]

Have you decided to focus on finding a Cigarette to replace your 22 ?

Greg, I ran side by side with my old 75 18' Donzi during the CT River Run. That boat runs really strong with a 383 and new Volvo SX drive. I love the 18s.
The two guys that were with me, were vary convincing that I should not go back. "You've been there and done that". Probably right...
To answer your question, Yes, I would like a 20' Cig to be the replacement/next boat if and when my 22' Donzi sells.

[Pat McPherson]

Had a few conversations with my wife over the weekend and she is vary much against going back to an 18' Donzi Classic...

I have clearance to build a car/boat port off the side of our garage so whether the next boat is 20', 22', or is not as much of a concern...

Changing boats is probably more about me wanting to have a different toy every few years. My last 3 boats have been named, "For Now"...

I'm going to assume that our 22 Classic will be around for another year so I'm working my too due / too fix list...
New cover- check
New seat mounts- check
New speedo and tach- check
New trim tab switches- check
New zincs- check
New/recover seats- not required
External steering- maybe spring of 2017

Thanks for all the input Guys!

[chip w]

I have clearance to build a car/boat port off the side of our garage so whether the next boat is 20', 22', or is not as much of a concern...


Good luck with the car port. Mine started out that way. I got the initial plans back from the architect on Friday to extend the garage. It looks like when it's done it will be 32' to 33' deep. Boat on one side, wife's car and 911 on the other side with an alcove off the side for the workbench/work area. Hope to break ground before the end of the year. :):):)

[Pat McPherson]

Good luck with the car port. Mine started out that way. I got the initial plans back from the architect on Friday to extend the garage. It looks like when it's done it will be 32' to 33' deep. Boat on one side, wife's car and 911 on the other side with an alcove off the side for the workbench/work area. Hope to break ground before the end of the year. :):):)

Chip, I do plan to build an extension off the back of the garage one day but that will be for the tractor, snow blower, walk behind mower and other tools/toys to tack care of the yard. All that crap is in my side of the garage now so my car is out in the cold.
The boat is just going under a port; not going to build another bay...85383

[Greg Guimond]

Pat you asked about a Superboat 21 as an alternative to the 22 Classic. I have had two 21's and they will not do as well in rough water as the Classic mostly because they are a pad bottom design. The 22 Classic with the round bottom and 24 degrees is more forgiving then the Superboat 21 with a pad and 22 degrees of deadrise. The 21's are also a little lighter. There are a lot of options out there now in the 22'-23' range but it depends on your needs.

[Pat McPherson]

Pat you asked about a Superboat 21 as an alternative to the 22 Classic. I have had two 21's and they will not do as well in rough water as the Classic mostly because they are a pad bottom design. The 22 Classic with the round bottom and 24 degrees is more forgiving then the Superboat 21 with a pad and 22 degrees of deadrise. The 21's are also a little lighter. There are a lot of options out there now in the 22'-23' range but it depends on your needs.

In my thinking behind the 21' Superboat option is to be able to add waterskiing to the list of activities. I do want to stay with an O/I though and not many 21' Superboats built that way...
The boat I owned before my 22' Donzi was a 26' Velocity 280. That boat had the pad bottom and ran great in the rough but it is much larger boat. Not bin in a 22' Velocity but I've seen a couple of those in I/O...
Top of my list, if/when my Donzi goes down the road is a 20' Cig, but those are like looking for a needle in a hey stack. When a nice one comes up for sale you have to be ready to jump and I tend to waiver...

[Greg Guimond]

Pat, if you are set on staying with I/O power AND want 22' or less you will be limited. Many, many options in O/B power but very few in I/O because of the room the car motor takes up. On the outboard side you can now get 5 years of warranty on both Mercury 300XS and ETEC 300 G1 motors. Perfect match for one of the boats I've assembled below to both ski with the kids and to eat up LI Sound when flying solo ..............

Nordic Crossfire 21 -1475lbs – 21’1” Long, 7’1” Beam
Bernico Extreme 21 -727lbs –21’4”Long, 6’3” Beam
Progression 22 - 948lbs –22’1”Long, 7’8” Beam
Chaudron Pro-S22 – 910lbs –22’2”Long, 6’2” Beam
Sutphen SSX21 - 1325lbs–20’9”Long, 7’2”Beam
Tuff 21 (kevlar hull) - 890lbs –20’8” Long, 7’7” Beam
Velocity V7 OB 21 (carbon hull) –682lbs – 21’5” Long, 6’11” Beam

If you REALLY are staying car motor, just find a clean Team Warlock 23 Offshore and prop it to ski and be done with it. I might know of a few out there.

[Pat McPherson]

Pat, if you are set on staying with I/O power AND want 22' or less you will be limited. Many, many options in O/B power but very few in I/O because of the room the car motor takes up. On the outboard side you can now get 5 years of warranty on both Mercury 300XS and ETEC 300 G1 motors. Perfect match for one of the boats I've assembled below to both ski with the kids and to eat up LI Sound when flying solo ..............

Nordic Crossfire 21 -1475lbs – 21’1” Long, 7’1” Beam
Bernico Extreme 21 -727lbs –21’4”Long, 6’3” Beam
Progression 22 - 948lbs –22’1”Long, 7’8” Beam
Chaudron Pro-S22 – 910lbs –22’2”Long, 6’2” Beam
Sutphen SSX21 - 1325lbs–20’9”Long, 7’2”Beam
Tuff 21 (kevlar hull) - 890lbs –20’8” Long, 7’7” Beam
Velocity V7 OB 21 (carbon hull) –682lbs – 21’5” Long, 6’11” Beam

If you REALLY are staying car motor, just find a clean Team Warlock 23 Offshore and prop it to ski and be done with it. I might know of a few out there.



Greg,
Nothing like the roar of a BBC, but you never know...
I've seen up close the Progression and Sutphen but not the others. This will make for good research during the winter months.
Thanks

[joseph m. hahnl]

This one seems dialed in pretty good. Carries the bow well. I wonder if this one has the pad that Matty mentioned




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEbO6tra5to

[mattyboy]

Joe yes that is the later 20 called the Son of a Gun the earlier 20s were round bottoms

[Pat McPherson]

I worked at River Landing Marina between the bridges on the CT River back in the summers of 85-87. Ocean Performance was located there and sold Cigarettes. I recall two 20ft sold during those years, 1 red, 1 yellow. I am not sure if they were the newer "son of a gun", both had small blocks and alpha drives. The owner of the red one had a supercharger installed a couple years later and it was a screamer...

[Greg Guimond]

Greg,
Nothing like the roar of a BBC, but you never know...
I've seen up close the Progression and Sutphen but not the others. This will make for good research during the winter months.
Thanks

Sure thing Pat.

I only know of one Superboat 21 East of the Mississippi with a car motor that is for sale. If you decide to run caged hamsters and can travel, a Hallett F2 V is for sale and is set up for family ski. It had a 300 on it and did high 80's. These are also 21' long and extremely well built. Prime in LA did all the rigging (I have used them before) has a reversible seat, ballast tank, all the extra stuff but .... you would need power and like yellow.

[mattyboy]

Just saw pics of the new tuff 24 nice :yes:

[Pat McPherson]

Sure thing Pat.

I only know of one Superboat 21 East of the Mississippi with a car motor that is for sale.

This boat has changed hands a lot and I almost bought it a few years back when it was for sale in Mass. I emailed with the current owner and he's put a lot of $$ in the package lately; new trailer, new interior, new short lower...

[Greg Guimond]

This boat has changed hands a lot and I almost bought it a few years back when it was for sale in Mass. I emailed with the current owner and he's put a lot of $$ in the package lately; new trailer, new interior, new short lower...

Yep......FYI, he will take $20,000 for it if the transaction is simple and quick.

[Pat McPherson]

Yep......FYI, he will take $20,000 for it if the transaction is simple and quick.

I wish I could own a fleet of more than just the 2 I've got...:biggrin.:

[joseph m. hahnl]

There's a 20 on this group for $16K looks very nice:yes:







https://www.facebook.com/groups/222949037794347/?fref=nf





https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p320x320/15181168_10209736964848080_5760745268736072470_n.j pg?oh=cb13454efc6dcb2fb299a807de13b536&oe=58B8E9A0

[chip w]

Pat, if you're going to do something call me or PM me about your boat.

[Pat McPherson]

Just saw pics of the new tuff 24 nice :yes:

I see on their web page 16, 21,and 28 ft but not the 24. Where are you seeing the 24?

A new boat is out of my price range but a 21 with a new LS motor would be really awesome!

[Greg Guimond]

I thought you wanted to get a smaller boat than your current 22 Classic? The Tuff 24 is under development. It's brand new with the first one just out of the mold (Matty's photo) and being set up for a 400. It'll easily be $100k. I was hoping that it would be a narrower 6' beam like some of the stuff being built in Europe, but it looks to be based on there 28, so will end up being a 7x24 I suspect like many other options. There 21 footer ran 107mph on multiple radar runs this Summer with a 300.

[Greg Guimond]

A new boat is out of my price range but a 21 with a new LS motor would be really awesome!

Nordic has been running a Merc 1150 in there 21 foot model that they would probably sell you as they are building up a new one with more power. The SR-21 does a lot of things well.

[Pat McPherson]

I thought you wanted to get a smaller boat than your current 22 Classic? The Tuff 24 is under development. It's brand new with the first one just out of the mold (Matty's photo) and being set up for a 400. It'll easily be $100k. I was hoping that it would be a narrower 6' beam like some of the stuff being built in Europe, but it looks to be based on there 28, so will end up being a 7x24 I suspect like many other options. There 21 footer ran 107mph on multiple radar runs this Summer with a 300.

Just curious about the 24'; for sure not looking to buy a $100K boat...
Also, not looking to go 100mph in a boat; toping out in the 70-80 range is more than fast enough for me...:yes:

[Greg Guimond]

I only know of one Superboat 21 East of the Mississippi with a car motor that is for sale.


This boat has changed hands a lot and I almost bought it a few years back when it was for sale in Mass.

The Superboat 21 with the 509 has a small deposit on it. Not surprised at $20,000.

[blacktruck]

If you really want a car motor in 20-22 you can find Hallett 210's in a range of prices. Beautiful looking boat, not the fastest but does everything pretty well. Lines are similar to an old Cig 20. Others are Howard 220 offshore / Howard 23 offshore, 22 Nordic sprint and Evo, Lavey Craft 21 XTS.

http://i66.tinypic.com/50pd39.jpg

[Greg Guimond]

......
IMO in 23' nothing matches these two makes .............. budget breaker or budget maker, pick your $$

[blacktruck]

......
IMO in 23' nothing matches these two makes .............. budget breaker or budget maker, pick your $$

I mostly agree, the 24 Tuff being almost 25' though, it's amazing either way. The Howard 23 Offshore is a "similar" boat to the Warlock 23. Here's a rare outboard version. Maybe Howard could make one, they have the mold I believe? Let's throw the 24 Pantera in there too.
23 Howard OS
http://i66.tinypic.com/11tl9c8.jpg

24 Pantera
http://i65.tinypic.com/2ih5mbc.jpg

http://i67.tinypic.com/2zh465i.jpg

[Greg Guimond]

They built very few Howard 23's and they all have a really wide pad. Not really a boat that has the ride of a Classic 22 with 24 degree bottom.

I'd pay $100k for the new 2016 Tuff 24 before I paid Howard the same to revive the old 23 Offshore from the back lot vault.

[blacktruck]

They built very few Howard 23's and they all have a really wide pad. Not really a boat that has the ride of a Classic 22 with 24 degree bottom.

I'd pay $100k for the new 2016 Tuff 24 before I paid Howard the same to revive the old 23 Offshore from the back lot vault.

I would get the Tuff too. I'd go outboard. The Howard 23 OS is a better hull than the 22 Classic in every way, very similar deadrise and has the pad. The Tuff has a pad as well, like every fast boat in that size range.

http://i67.tinypic.com/2956154.jpg

[Greg Guimond]

I would get the Tuff too. I'd go outboard. The Howard 23 OS is a better hull than the 22 Classic in every way, very similar deadrise and has the pad. The Tuff has a pad as well, like every fast boat in that size range.

Except for the fact you can't buy a Howard 23. You can't get a new one and you can't find a used one.

[blacktruck]

Except for the fact you can't buy a Howard 23. You can't get a new one and you can't find a used one.

Aware of that. Good thread though. I like reminiscing of old boats from the past and ones now.

[Greg Guimond]

I always thought a 22 Classic would make a good candidate for a small delta pad addition. Easy to do and surprised no one has done it.

[blacktruck]

I always thought a 22 Classic would make a good candidate for a small delta pad addition. Easy to do and surprised no one has done it.

Ya, I agree. I wouldn't rule it out. Reggie Jr. said on facebook that anything is possible. They are really pumping out Classics right now. I think they are building them lighter because the performance reported seemed really good for the 16 and 22 Classics.

http://i65.tinypic.com/6ih35i.jpg

[Just Say N20]

Trueser completely restored/restomoded a 22 Critter with a pad.

Maybe he will comment.

[Greg Guimond]

Trueser completely restored/restomoded a 22 Critter with a pad. Maybe he will comment.

I did not know that. Do you have any pictures of that? For a 22 or more so for an 18 Classic I was not really thinking of a true pad the way I have them on my 16. I was more thinking of "taking a belt sander" and knocking down the fiberglass a bit on the keel until you had a flat plane maybe 2" or 3" wide. Just to take a bit off the round bottom and give it a little surface to run on.

[Greg Guimond]

Weighing options and I thought I'd start a thread. I've owned an 18' Donzi Classic, 20' Donzi Minx, and currently in my 4th year owning a 22' Donzi Classic. At some point down the line I'd like to own a 20' Cig and there is the one for sail down in MD that Greg pointed out.

Pat, do you want to install a delta pad on your 22 this Spring? :eek:

[Pat McPherson]

Pat, do you want to install a delta pad on your 22 this Spring? :eek:

No, I'm not in on modifying the hull of my 22' Donzi. I'm OK with the speed and handling the way she is.
If I had a bunch of cash to spend on mods, I'd start with full hydraulic steering helm and external rams. Then a shorty and one of those new BBlades props.

I did have a great run, 5 years, with a Velocity 280. That boat is a true 26' with full pad bottom. She ran 65+ any day of the week with stock 502 and is surprisingly good in the rough. Definitely a better ride than my buds 29' Fountain.

[Greg Guimond]

How about a Cig with a jet drive? Can you say rooster tail lol :shocking:

[Pat McPherson]

What year is that? Looks like early 70s...
Where is she?
For sale?

Not sure how well one of those would run in the rough...:lookaroun:

[CHACHI]

Trailer tag says New Jersey.

Ken

[Carl C]

I would get the Tuff too. I'd go outboard. The Howard 23 OS is a better hull than the 22 Classic in every way, very similar deadrise and has the pad. The Tuff has a pad as well, like every fast boat in that size range.


Great post. It's always bugged me that the magazine tests never have pictures of the bottom. Couldn't the photographers get there before the boats go in the water? Bjorn put a pad on his 22 and runs 112 without crazy power. I have to think there is a trade-off in handling though. Especially those of us who take them off-shore. I like that the 22 Classic is a true 22' 6" hull with no beak, bustle or notch. That must give it a running surface equal to some 24s. I'm happy with running low 80s with a stock 525 burning 87 octane car gas.

[tmdog]

Great post. It's always bugged me that the magazine tests never have pictures of the bottom. Couldn't the photographers get there before the boats go in the water? Bjorn put a pad on his 22 and runs 112 without crazy power. I have to think there is a trade-off in handling though. Especially those of us who take them off-shore. I like that the 22 Classic is a true 22' 6" hull with no beak, bustle or notch. That must give it a running surface equal to some 24s. I'm happy with running low 80s with a stock 525 burning 87 octane car gas.

Thanks Carl. Comment is thought provoking at the very least.

[tmdog]

How about a Cig with a jet drive? Can you say rooster tail lol :shocking:

The ones I see on the lake sounds as if they are running 100mph and pass them with no problem. Rooster tail....... hell yeah.

[Greg Guimond]

I would get the Tuff too. I'd go outboard. The Howard 23 OS is a better hull than the 22 Classic in every way, very similar deadrise and has the pad. The Tuff has a pad as well, like every fast boat in that size range.

http://i67.tinypic.com/2956154.jpg


Great post. It's always bugged me that the magazine tests never have pictures of the bottom. Couldn't the photographers get there before the boats go in the water? Bjorn put a pad on his 22 and runs 112 without crazy power. I have to think there is a trade-off in handling though. Especially those of us who take them off-shore. I like that the 22 Classic is a true 22' 6" hull with no beak, bustle or notch. That must give it a running surface equal to some 24s. I'm happy with running low 80s with a stock 525 burning 87 octane car gas.

The picture above is mine.

I put it together for a conversation about hull designs. The stats took a while to gather, but they are balls on accurate. I did it last year for a top speed discussion. A lot of the builders don't like to give photos.

[Carl C]

The picture above is mine.

I put it together for a conversation about hull designs. The stats took a while to gather, but they are balls on accurate. I did it last year for a top speed discussion. A lot of the builders don't like to give photos.

Ah. Kudos to you then. Nice pics and hard info to find. Don't know why the builders would hide hull design when you can see it on their websites or showrooms or just request it. The Bernico is a little puzzling. Why a step so far forward?

[Greg Guimond]

I guess you have to separate handling from ride comfort. A true raised pad like Bjorn has will handle better because the edges of the pad will "grab" on tight turns at mid speeds. Now on ride comfort, it is certainly harsher than the round bottom 24 degree we all love.

I think there is a great compromise waiting for one of you 22 Classic owners to try which is a delta pad design. Pick up some speed while keeping the ride comfortable.

Some guys don't like the bottom all over the interweb. I never could understand why either. Takes a lot to splash something like that.

[Carl C]

I guess you have to separate handling from ride comfort. A true raised pad like Bjorn has will handle better because the edges of the pad will "grab" on tight turns at mid speeds. Now on ride comfort, it is certainly harsher than the round bottom 24 degree we all love.

I think there is a great compromise waiting for one of you 22 Classic owners to try which is a delta pad design. Pick up some speed while keeping the ride comfortable.

The pad must be just right as the boat has to balance on it. How does it effect the high banked turns these hulls carve? Obviously it will slam waves harder in big water. No pad in my future. I'm not chasing any records. I wonder if hull mods contributed to the 22 crash at the LOTO Shootout ...

[Greg Guimond]

The pad must be just right as the boat has to balance on it. How does it effect the high banked turns these hulls carve? Obviously it will slam waves harder in big water. No pad in my future. I'm not chasing any records. I wonder if hull mods contributed to the 22 crash at the LOTO Shootout ...

It carves a lot harder and yep you need to know how to balance it which take some experience when you want to chase the big number. I always wondered if you put a 3" wide delta pad on a 22 Classic if it would pick up 4-5mph with no adverse effect on comfort. Someone out there in the world has probably tried it. Bjorn may come along for some comments.

[Greg Guimond]

Frigin Bjorn must have cajones the size of Kansas to pilot his 22 to 112mph. Scary fast!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mq6bSy4lfnU

[blacktruck]

The picture above is mine.

I put it together for a conversation about hull designs. The stats took a while to gather, but they are balls on accurate. I did it last year for a top speed discussion. A lot of the builders don't like to give photos.

Thanks for taking the time, it's a good illustration.

[blacktruck]

Ah. Kudos to you then. Nice pics and hard info to find. Don't know why the builders would hide hull design when you can see it on their websites or showrooms or just request it. The Bernico is a little puzzling. Why a step so far forward?

The step allows for a progressive deadrise that changes as you go aft, deeper at the front, less at the rear. For offshore, in a straight line, it makes sense. As far as comfort and handling, there is no compromise really with the pad, it does everything better than a rounded keel. That's why a 22 Progression or 21 Tuff will outperform a 22 Classic in comfort, handling and speed. (Not knocking the 22C, it's an amazing boat, considering how old it is too). I prefer no steps on a smaller boat but for offshore racing in a straight line it makes sense.

I would love to see a 22C hull worked.

Other 22's that use progressive steps; Chaudron 22 and 25 (6' beam), Phantom 19 and 21. Really cool boats on the other side of the pond that are raced offshore, not just beach thumpers.

http://i66.tinypic.com/4qfzk.jpg

http://i65.tinypic.com/111t26d.jpg

http://i66.tinypic.com/2dbp54w.png

Phantom
http://i66.tinypic.com/25yyb9k.jpg

[mattyboy]

I see on their web page 16, 21,and 28 ft but not the 24. Where are you seeing the 24?

A new boat is out of my price range but a 21 with a new LS motor would be really awesome!

FB the 24 is running 93 with 250hp OB first run still fine tuning just saw a couple of vids nice looking boat

[jtr2kwl]

Wow! Am I late to this thread, or what!? But I'm going to be that guy and revive this; I'm a big fan of sharing information for any one else who may be interested, and I wanted to share my experience with the 22C and Cig 20. Having spent a lot of time on both a 22C and a Cig 20, I agree and disagree with a lot that has been mentioned in this thread. I haven't spent any time on an 18C, so I cannot comment there. Again, this is just my experience, your mileage may vary.

First and foremost, all 3 are very different boats. I don't think that the Cig 20 and 22C share much in common, in that regard I would say that the Cig 20 hull is more similar to an 18C. Even when compared to an 18C, the Cig 20 has a few differences. One which has been stated in this thread, and is true, is that the 20 is widest at the transom, which in a way makes it feel larger than a 20 foot boat.

When it comes to "efficiency," I can agree that the 22C is a more efficient, faster hull. With the same power, I found that the 22C was a few miles an hour faster. IMO this probably has to do with the weight of the 20, it is a heavy boat.

When it comes to handling, I have to think the 20 wins. In terms of rough water handling, the 20 wins hands down. In my opinion, it turns better than the 22C, feels more solid, and has a more comfortable ride. When it comes to rough water, there really just is no comparison. The 20 is a rough water boat, and this is where it feels like a much larger boat. In fact the cig 20 really shines in the rough water it can handle. I've been in some pretty snotty water with the Cig 20, and it loves it. It was a bit of a surprise the first time, but you quickly realize that the Cig 20 just eats it all up, and still wants to go faster. When riding side by side with a 22C in some rough water, the Cig just kept going and and crushing through waves, where the 22C just wasn't as adept. All in all, i've come to find that my Cig 20 is much stronger than I am, and it will take a beating long after I cant! There was some discussion about the cig 20 run that the cig 20's were staying close to shore looking for smooth water, but I don't think that was "hiding" from rough water. Smooth water in a cig 20 is a true joy, and it feels rock solid on rails when you have a nice patch of calm water where it can be very agile. Also of note, the Cig 20 does not like to go slow. The hull will tolerate 30-35mph, but it really comes alive at 40-45+.

As for the pounding that others have alluded to, it does happen, but not to an awful extent. The cig 20 can be flighty, so maybe thats a part of it. It is very sensitive to the controls, and you really have to "drive" the boat. I am constantly monitoring trim and tabs when driving, you really have to be one with the boat. I don't think thats a negative, I look at it similar to the comparison between an automatic vs manual transmission. With the manual transmission, you have more to do, but you feel more in touch with the car. Its kind of like that with the 20.

One negative of the Cig 20 is setting it up. I think this has to do with a lack of widely available information. There are so many different setups for the cig 20's out there that it can be tough to figure out what works for your setup. A lot of what I've done has been trial and error, whereas I feel that information on donzi's is a more widely available. For example, running longer trim tabs. The cig 20 can have a propensity to porpoise, and the longer tabs certainly help with that. Where the 22C can be run with minimal tab, I am always running tabs on the 20. I typically run them in a neutral position, parallel to the hull, and will lift them just a little to get top speed out of the boat. Drive setup and prop selection also takes time. Currently running a -2 inch shorty with the prop shaft dead on at 3 inches below the hull. I feel thats just a touch too high and will be installing a 1/2 or 1 inch spacer. I've also tested out quite a few props. The Mirage feels solid, but handles poorly, the bravo 1 is way too lose. The rev 4 i think is almost a perfect prop for the boat, and I'm currently running a BBlades 4 speed, which is very similar to the rev 4. More testing to come this summer!

Despite being very late to the game, I hope this thread has helped answer any questions for anyone who may be interested!

[jtr2kwl]

I also want to clarify that I believe there are 3 "generations" of the cig 20. The first, through about 75, was setup for SBC. The second -- after 75 -- had a larger engine compartment and power dome on the hatch for the BBC setup. The 3rd -- 1995+ -- had a pad bottom. Mine is a 79 with a rounded keel.

[mattyboy]

I also want to clarify that I believe there are 3 "generations" of the cig 20. The first, through about 75, was setup for SBC. The second -- after 75 -- had a larger engine compartment and power dome on the hatch for the BBC setup. The 3rd -- 1995+ -- had a pad bottom. Mine is a 79 with a rounded keel.

yes they also changed the bottom a bit before the pad the very early ones had short inner strakes then they made them longer not sure when they made that change

[jtr2kwl]

Interesting! I can confirm that mine has the shorter inner strakes, and is a ‘79. How do the shorter/longer inner strakes affect the attitude of the boat? That’s actually how I came across this thread again, was looking into better understanding hull design on these smaller classic boats.

[FitchPowerboatServices]

While browsing the OFfshore only classifieds last week there was an 81 20 cig project for sale. I thought that with our C22 project coming to an end we could use it. Drove to the shop waited for my brother to show up and give his blessing (he does the other half of the work) and logged on and it was sold, we were heartbroken. A 20 cig has been on our short list for years

[jtr2kwl]

While browsing the OFfshore only classifieds last week there was an 81 20 cig project for sale. I thought that with our C22 project coming to an end we could use it. Drove to the shop waited for my brother to show up and give his blessing (he does the other half of the work) and logged on and it was sold, we were heartbroken. A 20 cig has been on our short list for years

Did you reach out to that guy personally? I had been in discussion with him about that particular hull as well, but I believe they actually had a few others. Of course, they were not in the best shape, but if you want to start with a bare hull it could be a good opportunity.

[mattyboy]

Interesting! I can confirm that mine has the shorter inner strakes, and is a ‘79. How do the shorter/longer inner strakes affect the attitude of the boat? That’s actually how I came across this thread again, was looking into better understanding hull design on these smaller classic boats.

Measure from the end of the inner strake to the transom that will tell you what you have

[mattyboy]

the early 19 and 20 cigs ( also the early 19 donzi and Donzi minx) had very short inner strakes similar to the 16 skisporter where they end 4-6 feet from the transom, the round keel 18 and 22 had longer inner strakes that ended around 2 feet from the transom.

the longer strakes give lift and get the hull up and out of the water making it a bit faster the short strakes lead to a flatter ride angle a little more wetted hull so slower but probably a bit smoother ride.

they made changes to the inner strakes on the donzi hornet over it's lifetime too making them longer just like the cig

on your boat you have the longer strakes

on the pic I placed red arrows to show the approx. difference between the two

everyone says the minx is a 2 foot shorter 22 but it really is a 4 foot longer skisporter and the 18 is just 4 foot shorter 22 the hull bottoms are more similar 16 skisporter to minx and then the 18 to 22 are like bottoms

sometime over the lifetime of the 16 they made this change as well

[jtr2kwl]

Thanks, Matt! Good to know all that stuff, will definitely help in the continued setup of the boat!

[mattyboy]

Thanks, Matt! Good to know all that stuff, will definitely help in the continued setup of the boat!

to the eye it looks like there is rocker in the hull which would lead to bow lift another element of speed, just picture the rocker in a rocking chair , the weight of a BB and lift from the longer strakes pushing the last 2 feet of the boat down getting the nose up and flying.



you would have to put a straight edge on it to truly see it it may just ne an optical illusion

[jtr2kwl]

I've heard from others that there is a rocker in the cig 20 hull, so I believe you're correct in that regard. Currently, I'm running too flat. My intent is to run with a 4 inch prop depth, and find a prop that does a better job carrying the bow, which I think would ultimately help with the porpoise. I believe what happens to me is that none of the props really hold the bow up consistently, leading to the porpoise. I drag some tab to keep it under control.

Again, thank you for all of the wonderful insight! very helpful!

[scannerboat]

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Nice restore of the Italian Mob, Original owner had it setup with a huge engine and jet drive to get to fire island and other places around long island at low tides. Very cool.
https://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=84981&stc=1&d=1473300129

[Greg Guimond]

Nice restore of the Italian Mob, Original owner had it setup with a huge engine and jet drive to get to fire island and other places around long island at low tides. Very cool.
https://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=84981&stc=1&d=1473300129


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[jtr2kwl]

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This boat is on Lake George now as well. Currently going through a resto.