PDA

View Full Version : What can anyone tell me about a closed coola



JParanee
12-11-2015, 08:00 PM
Gonna be running my boat in salt a bit

Growing up around it I know it's the Devils piss :)

please show me some systems and tell me the best route to go

thank you

joseph m. hahnl
12-11-2015, 08:26 PM
What motor are you running? I run a full cooler with stainless risers. Some times you can pick up the cooler on e-bay for short money. You'll need a cold water tee to feed the risers, elbows to feed the exhaust manifold with coolant, a duel chamber thermostat housing, about 10 feet of blue wire hose and block off gaskets for the risers. There's a few different types of brackets for mounting it on the engine. The easiest method is the bracket that mounts to the thermostat housing. Totally worth the money and aggravation :biggrin.: Merc made a long and short bracket that bolts to the heads accessory hole. You can mount the cooler on the front or the back of the motor with them. It depends what cooler you have so be aware of that. Those brackets are no longer made and the Power steering and alternator bracket wont work with it mounted on the front when using center riser manifolds.

JParanee
12-11-2015, 10:42 PM
What motor are you running? I run a full cooler with stainless risers. Some times you can pick up the cooler on e-bay for short money. You'll need a cold water tee to feed the risers, elbows to feed the exhaust manifold with coolant, a duel chamber thermostat housing, about 10 feet of blue wire hose and block off gaskets for the risers. There's a few different types of brackets for mounting it on the engine. The easiest method is the bracket that mounts to the thermostat housing. Totally worth the money and aggravation :biggrin.: Merc made a long and short bracket that bolts to the heads accessory hole. You can mount the cooler on the front or the back of the motor with them. It depends what cooler you have so be aware of that. Those brackets are no longer made and the Power steering and alternator bracket wont work with it mounted on the front when using center riser manifolds.


Blue motor


http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa302/jparanee/Vehicles/image_22.jpeg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/jparanee/media/Vehicles/image_22.jpeg.html)

I ve maintained a lot of motors in the salt and I am able to flush very quickly so I'm debating wether it's worth it

my last big block boat that I only ran in the salt I would hang on davits and flush after every run and I was always fine

I also ran big Yamaha 2 strokes for many years in the salt and flushed them after every use and they were always fine

the Yamaha OX 66's were a salt water series so I know they were meant for the salt but still like I said salt water is an sob

this boat will probable be run 50/50 fresh salt and it will always be pulled and flushed

so I'm just wondering if is worth it with the proper maintanence

blue motors don't come cheap :)

thoughts ?

smokediver
12-11-2015, 10:47 PM
On a higher horsepower engine you might have to run a half system. It will cool the block and raw water will go through the manifolds and risers. Monitor makes a nice half system for around 1000 dollars. I installed one on mine and am very happy. George Carter may chime in. He has a lot of good info on the conversion. I ran mine in freshwater for several hours and then did the instal. I only used distilled water the first 5 or 6 times out , draining each time and refilling. I then used a non silica antifreeze at about 50/50. If the engine has been in salt water it is important to run distilled water and then the non silica antifreeze. It is less prone to turning into a gel if exposed to left over salt in the block.

JParanee
12-11-2015, 11:55 PM
On a higher horsepower engine you might have to run a half system. It will cool the block and raw water will go through the manifolds and risers. Monitor makes a nice half system for around 1000 dollars. I installed one on mine and am very happy. George Carter may chime in. He has a lot of good info on the conversion. I ran mine in freshwater for several hours and then did the instal. I only used distilled water the first 5 or 6 times out , draining each time and refilling. I then used a non silica antifreeze at about 50/50. If the engine has been in salt water it is important to run distilled water and then the non silica antifreeze. It is less prone to turning into a gel if exposed to left over salt in the block.


Thanks Smoke

this engine has not been run in salt

I was on CP performances web site checking out units

i will ill check out monitor

yeller
12-12-2015, 12:46 PM
I ve maintained a lot of motors in the salt and I am able to flush very quickly so I'm debating wether it's worth it

my last big block boat that I only ran in the salt I would hang on davits and flush after every run and I was always fine You answered your own question. Not worth it IMO.
I've been adapting an aftermarket closed cooling system to my new motor because the original motor had CC from the factory and I liked not having to winterized the block. That's the only reason I have it, but I now wish I hadn't started.

My previous boat didn't have CC and I boat 50/50 like you will be doing. As long as you flush right away there is absolutely no effects from the salt on the engine.
All the fears of salt corrosion is because of poorly maintained boats and boats that are moored in salt water. CC is really an unnecessary expense for anyone that flushes right away.

Save your $ for gas and beer. :beer:

Ghost
12-12-2015, 01:11 PM
Respectfully, I have to disagree on this one. I think antifreeze is substantially better than even fresh water for corrosion prevention. Salt is, of course, horrible. Also, in my experience, closed-cooling engines usually run at better operating temps. You can't accidentally suck sand or other debris into the block. The easier winterization is a nice bonus.

I don't know, but suppose some some boats may get very little use, where religious flushers get away without closed cooling for years. But I'm betting if you use the boat a lot, far better to have it. I wouldn't be without it. It's really not very expensive for a half system. (Add Stainless Marine manifolds on the seawater side and it's a really solid, trouble-free setup for many years.)

FWIW

yeller
12-12-2015, 01:45 PM
Now I have to respectfully disagree. :)
I had 18yrs of use on my last boat without CC and I truthfully have to say that you could not tell it was ever run in salt. Both the aluminum intake/exhaust and cast iron block were super clean.

It's all related to regular flushing. I don't like the extra real estate CC uses or its aesthetics. It makes it harder to work on the engine and has no real advantage for the regular flusher.

The only time I experienced corrosion from salt was when I stored my boat in the driveway of a waterfront property. Boat wasn't in the water but the salt in the air started to corrode the metal surprisingly quick if I didn't stay on top of it. Moving only a mile away from the water solved that issue.

Morgan's Cloud
12-12-2015, 02:32 PM
Merc actually makes closed cooling systems for their own engines . How do I know ? I have one on my 502. Works and fits just fine.
Now people who direct you to other sites may not know this , I'm not sure .
Where we boat boats stay in the briny for the duration of the season , so flushing isn't an option unless you have that cool little setup that the newer Volvo's utilize but I do know that if you have closed cooling with anti-freeze the winterizing procedure is a lot more simple .

tmdog
12-12-2015, 02:53 PM
For peak performance, hot engine, cold fuel. For the past 15 yrs had CC on all my engines. I installed a 180* stat and engine runs at its peak. After a hard run will see 185-190*. That is one big advantage when running in the salt. Rinse the exterior and your good to go.

Ghost
12-12-2015, 02:56 PM
Now I have to respectfully disagree. :)
I had 18yrs of use on my last boat without CC and I truthfully have to say that you could not tell it was ever run in salt. Both the aluminum intake/exhaust and cast iron block were super clean.

It's all related to regular flushing. I don't like the extra real estate CC uses or its aesthetics. It makes it harder to work on the engine and has no real advantage for the regular flusher.

The only time I experienced corrosion from salt was when I stored my boat in the driveway of a waterfront property. Boat wasn't in the water but the salt in the air started to corrode the metal surprisingly quick if I didn't stay on top of it. Moving only a mile away from the water solved that issue.

Agreed that it takes up space and makes it harder to work on. It also adds considerable weight, for those who are shedding every pound.

It is cheaper and easier to winterize with CC. I know as a rule, the increase in reasale value is substantial. Where I am, it's probably enough to cover the cost, probably even with the value of money over time.

I don't believe there is no difference in degradation of the block and manifold. The question is, of course, how much difference. I suppose there's another consideration with how one uses the motor. If it's a hopped up racing tune, any longevity difference might not matter--it's going to get worn and bored and rebuilt until the block is a throwaway.

Yeller, any idea how many hours you put on yours over 18 years? Sounds like you were very disciplined and did really well with it. Kudos on that.

JParanee
12-12-2015, 03:21 PM
I apreciate all the info gentleman and I am an anal flusher :)

ive been doing a lot of research on the topic

question

on a motor like mine which is the best way to go .... Half system or whole ?

I do know from my experience growing up if you flush immediately after every salt water use you can get by for years ......but this motor has never been run in salt and I just hate the thought :)

Morgan's Cloud
12-12-2015, 03:42 PM
If I'm correct , on your setup your manifolds are alloy , your risers are s/s.
If you have a 'full system' your manifolds will be FWC and you'll need a larger heat exchanger to handle the load . But no doubt you'll still flush after running anyway so the risers which are always vulnerable will still be taken care of .
But if you get the 1/2 system your manifolds AND risers will still be safeguarded by flushing and you'll have a slightly smaller and lighter heat exchanger .
In terms of the benefits of FWC I wouldn't get too carried away worrying about the weight of the system , whether it's 'full' or 'half' .
I'd guess that the system on my 502 probably only weighs 15 pounds in total , if that .
Worth every penny , especially if you ever re-sell and your prospective buyer is knowledgeable .

Ghost
12-12-2015, 03:46 PM
<aside: Steve, don't forget the weight of the water in the system. :) >

joseph m. hahnl
12-12-2015, 04:39 PM
I run full cooler in my Minx and one in my Penn Yan Avenger. After dumping $5,000 in to my 400, I wouldn't chance it to flushing salt water or any raw water. I guess if it's a Merc why bother:rolleyes: But personally I would never ever run non propylene glycol liquid through my Dart block nor through the aluminum heads, intake and exhaust manifolds it has. I also retro fit the existing closed cooling on my cruiser from log style to center riser exhaust manifolds. So even my Merc is worth enough for closed cooling:biggrin.:. It's true:yes: Merc does make an out of the box plug and play cooler with everything you need. Almost all of that stuff can be found on e-bay for pennies on the dollar, if you know what to look for. It is not that difficult to put on a system if your struggling have a professional step in. sure you can run a block for years with flushing. But you can run a block and manifolds forever with closed cooling never flushing it once. then when needed you can rebuild the block and put it back in the boat and run it forever again.:kingme:

gcarter
12-12-2015, 05:09 PM
I'm definately in the cooler camp.
I really like this Monitor Systems remote high performance cooler good for 700 HP.
https://www.perfprotech.com/high-performance-fwc-system-full-flow-700hp-capacity-pn-mrm-5321-hp427rh-k1/product/246892 Larger coolers are available, up to 1,200 HP.
When you start considering higher HP systems, only half systems are available.
A full system including exhaust manifolds and risers would require a pretty large cooler.
The way I installed mine remotely where it's partly under the rear seat and
w/a Meziere 50 GPM remote coolant pump really cleaned up the front of the engine.
Also, the crank driven raw water pump makes service simple.
I have a red engine!

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=82607&d=1436664247

gcarter
12-12-2015, 05:23 PM
Another advantage of this system is the remote mounted engine thermostat which allows
full flow bypass coolant circulation until engine temperature reaches operating temperature.

JParanee
12-12-2015, 05:53 PM
That is impressive

I like where you mounted the system

gcarter
12-12-2015, 05:59 PM
Thanks!
If you want to see a little more, take a look here:
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?50476-Now-I-m-getting-serious/page84

yeller
12-12-2015, 08:22 PM
Yeller, any idea how many hours you put on yours over 18 years? Sounds like you were very disciplined and did really well with it. Kudos on that.Tough to say, but I used it a TON! Often 7 days a week. Pretty much every single sunny day after work and weekend for the 1st 5 or 6 years, then at least 2 or 3 times a week after that. Took the motor out after 10~12 years and when I took it apart, there was absolutely no corrosion. The jet drive, impeller, intake, exhaust and risers were aluminum and they were on the boat after 18yrs and water ports on exhaust were spotless. I always flushed when I got home and hosed down everything, including the interior and dash. When I pulled the motor (after 10yrs) even my homemade exhaust pipes, which went from riser to transom, were still good and they were just made from standard 3" automotive exhaust pipe.


Sounds like I'm alone..............but you'll never convince me that CC is necessary for a trailered boat that is flushed after every use.
I will agree that it adds resale value to a coastal boat.

gcarter
12-12-2015, 08:39 PM
I think one thing to consider is newer engines will have greater amounts of
aluminum in their construction. Many newer engines will have aluminum
heads and blocks. In that case, it's not simply a matter of rinsing and flushing.
Instead, it's a matter of not creating a battery. A cooler and a good anti-freeze
will guarantee that doesn't happen.

JParanee
12-12-2015, 11:27 PM
I've survived with just flushing on other boats but since I'm doing everything else ....... I might as well :)

now on the choice..... is what system ?

I dont really wanna hang it on the engine so I will look at what is posted above

thank you all for input

yeller
12-13-2015, 01:37 AM
I think one thing to consider is newer engines will have greater amounts of
aluminum in their construction. Many newer engines will have aluminum
heads and blocks. In that case, it's not simply a matter of rinsing and flushing.
Instead, it's a matter of not creating a battery. A cooler and a good anti-freeze
will guarantee that doesn't happen.I had aluminum exhaust manifolds and they were near perfect internally after 18yrs and exhaust is usually the 1st thing that goes on a motor. I'd have to disagree on aluminum being an issue.


I've survived with just flushing on other boats but since I'm doing everything else ....... I might as well :)

now on the choice..... is what system ?

I dont really wanna hang it on the engine so I will look at what is posted above

thank you all for inputFine....go with the masses... :biggrin.:


If you get a system from where George did, you can't go wrong.

JParanee
12-13-2015, 09:50 AM
I had aluminum exhaust manifolds and they were near perfect internally after 18yrs and exhaust is usually the 1st thing that goes on a motor. I'd have to disagree on aluminum being an issue.

Fine....go with the masses... :biggrin.:


If you get a system from where George did, you can't go wrong.


Thanks Yeller

im still debating but I think I might do it

I've already spent a chunk on the dual ram steering and all new controls etc so I'm easing into it

I will be calling were George got his system and CP performance and doing some more research

CP has this very nice polished stainless tank system but it's big money

JParanee
12-13-2015, 11:02 AM
So besides a kit I need to buy a water pump ?

Morgan's Cloud
12-13-2015, 11:56 AM
So besides a kit I need to buy a water pump ?

I know that the Merc kit does not require one , all it is is a tank , bracket or two and some different hoses.
Now, the stuff that George is talking about , I'm not sure . I know he will advise you though !

As for George's remark about the increasing use of dissimilar metals in engine construction AND yellers remarks about his success with flushing , they're all valid remarks. So I wouldn't want to take away from either's POV.

Interestingly , here's what I found out some time ago . When I ordered the new power package for my ST T I really wanted FWC but I didn't think it would fit in the very limited space available. The guy who supplied my package said that , without explaining why , he ordered all of his engines with the factory FWC option anyway .
I later found out , once I got my hands on the owner's manual , that the intake manifold is alloy so having a raw water cooled engine , much less one that stays in the water for months would have been a disaster without it.

Then I subsequently find out that the intake manifolds on the Merc 502s are also alloy and over on OSO I saw a thread similar to this one where a few people who were also religious flushers but there was a spot here and there that the salt pocketed in and ended up doing severe damage .

gcarter
12-13-2015, 02:55 PM
As for George's remark about the increasing use of dissimilar metals in engine construction AND yellers remarks about his success with flushing , they're all valid remarks. So I wouldn't want to take away from either's POV.

The water crossover in aluminum intake manifolds are particularly susceptible to corrosion and guess where the water goes when it corrodes through? There's not much salvageable when that happens.

You can use a conventional circ pump w/the Monitor system (see the links to illustrations on the web page), but I chose to go w/the Meziere remote pump for two reasons:
1) I wanted to clean up/and remove "stuff" from the front of the engine.
2) Having an electric pump w/a constant flow provides a few unique advantages over
a belt driven pump. First, there's never any hot spots in the engine and would have
to contribute to a lower chance of detonation. Second, the engine temp never skyrockets when you chop the throttle after a long hard run, instead the engine temp will slowly drop back to normal.

yeller
12-13-2015, 06:16 PM
I know that the Merc kit does not require one , all it is is a tank , bracket or two and some different hoses. The Merc kit would have to assume the purchaser already has a pump or is going to purchase one. Can't circulate water without one.


The water crossover in aluminum intake manifolds are particularly susceptible to corrosion and guess where the water goes when it corrodes through? There's not much salvageable when that happens.
I also used the same aluminum intake for the 1st 10~12 years and it was in great shape when I removed it. I only change manifolds because I installed a LT1 and needed a different intake.

As you can tell....I'm pretty stubborn on this subject. :biggrin.:



You can use a conventional circ pump w/the Monitor system (see the links to illustrations on the web page), but I chose to go w/the Meziere remote pump for two reasons:
1) I wanted to clean up/and remove "stuff" from the front of the engine.
2) Having an electric pump w/a constant flow provides a few unique advantages over a belt driven pump. First, there's never any hot spots in the engine and would have to contribute to a lower chance of detonation. Second, the engine temp never skyrockets when you chop the throttle after a long hard run, instead the engine temp will slowly drop back to normal.Exact reasons I originally installed an electric pump. It crapped out though, so I'm switching to a conventional pump. It died because the previous owner disassembled it to powder coat it and installed the seal in backwards. :doh: I'm switching to conventional because Meziere recommended against using an electric pump with the HP I'm running. They couldn't guarantee their pumps could keep the motor cool when running at sustained rpms of 4000 and up. I don't see it as a problem in George's application, or with a HP500. I'm also running a S/C which will add heat over a N/A motor.

yeller
12-13-2015, 06:27 PM
im still debating but I think I might do it

If you're not sure which way to go, I'd recommend doing it. It'll be worth the peace of mind it gives you and it'll add value to prospective buyers when that time comes.
It's also nice not to have to worry if you can't flush immediately after a run.

gcarter
12-13-2015, 10:31 PM
I also used the same aluminum intake for the 1st 10~12 years and it was in great shape when I removed it. I only change manifolds because I installed a LT1 and needed a different intake.

All I can say is, you've been fortunate. I've known several folks that lost engines for this reason.

Morgan's Cloud
12-14-2015, 07:11 AM
[QUOTE=yeller;661245]The Merc kit would have to assume the purchaser already has a pump or is going to purchase one. Can't circulate water without one.


The order for our 502 was screwed up at the factory and it arrived without the FWC already installed . The dealer had to order the kit and install it . All it was was a bracket or two , the heat exchanger and some different hoses. The raw water pump and the re-circulating pump are already on the engine .

JParanee
12-14-2015, 07:56 PM
Well I ordered a kit from CP Performance

it it was kinda pricey

also had to order water pump and a 3 belt pulley

It's stainless and cupronickel (what ever that is) :)

it it was more than cared to spend but I like the look

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa302/jparanee/Vehicles/image_34.jpeg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/jparanee/media/Vehicles/image_34.jpeg.html)

smokediver
12-14-2015, 10:19 PM
Nice bling ! If the new thermostat housing mounts on a spacer for the temp sensor be careful and check the sensor length as it may interfere with the spring of the tstat. Not sure where the sensor in the hp500 is located but when I added the kit to my fuel injected 502 there are 2 sensors that screw into the supplied spacer. From the looks of your kit , it doesn't have the tank mounted tstat. That's the kit I wish I would have ordered.

JParanee
12-14-2015, 11:24 PM
Nice bling ! If the new thermostat housing mounts on a spacer for the temp sensor be careful and check the sensor length as it may interfere with the spring of the tstat. Not sure where the sensor in the hp500 is located but when I added the kit to my fuel injected 502 there are 2 sensors that screw into the supplied spacer. From the looks of your kit , it doesn't have the tank mounted tstat. That's the kit I wish I would have ordered.


I apreciate the info

i plan lane on keeping this skiff for a very long time so I believe it's money well spent ......... At least that's what I'm telling myself :)

txtaz
12-15-2015, 07:13 AM
Way to jump in and go all out!:)
You will be happy you did it right.
The next challenge will be how to get serious tunes in. You have already done everything else.:yes::worthy::biggrin.:

JParanee
12-15-2015, 02:06 PM
Way to jump in and go all out!:)
You will be happy you did it right.
The next challenge will be how to get serious tunes in. You have already done everything else.:yes::worthy::biggrin.:


Taz

im really very fortunate

the motor is running strong and pushed the boat north of 80

better yet

in one of my buildings for almost 20 years a tenant of mine was Jim Taylor

Jim was the man when it came to Mopars and big blocks in general

there were always car magazines in and out shooting stories etc

the he highest priced GTo to ever sell at auction I believe had a Jim Taylor motor and drive train

Every day I would see the best of the best coming thru his shop

Jim is retired now but his prodigy Mark Ernie is a good friend and the best wrench I know

he built my airboat motor and is awesome

he was here last night and he is the one that picked out this system .....he doesn't care how he spends my money :)

he he will be tightening up odds and ends on it and will be doing the tuning etc

he he is going to start gong over the engine this weekend and getting ready to install the system when it comes in

the motor already has a custom Carb and like I sad is running strong

yeller
12-16-2015, 02:41 PM
Well I ordered a kit from CP Performance

Coward.

........says the guy who's installing CC on his own boat. :biggrin.:


That's a good looking system. Can never have too much bling!

gcarter
12-16-2015, 04:14 PM
The first Donzi I built, a 1986 Minx, also included closed cooling and a Meziere remote
pump (I really like them). I tried to keep the front of the engine as simple as possible,
i.e., only 2 V-belts and no serpentine belt w/their myriad brackets, idlers, and tensioner, and crank driven raw water pump. The crank driven pump gets the very necessary raw water pump out from under the STBD side of the engine.
The San Juan cooler was hung on the front of the block. In comparison to my red
Testa Rossa, the Minx had everything mounted on the engine. It turned out to be
a difficult engine installation to work on. This fact was the primary reason for
mounting everything I could remotely on the Testa Rossa. I now have a practically naked engine. It's easy to work on.
Here's a picture of the STBD front quarter of the Minx engine. I remember this picture was
very difficult to take. Just some things to consider.......

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=13569&d=1122761422

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=34764&d=1205500979

JParanee
12-17-2015, 12:36 AM
Coward.

........says the guy who's installing CC on his own boat. :biggrin.:


That's a good looking system. Can never have too much bling!


Thanks Yeller

we we will see how it goes :)

JParanee
12-17-2015, 12:37 AM
George some great setups

JParanee
12-17-2015, 12:27 PM
bad news

CP just called and said that the closed system I ordered would not work on my motor due to the placement of my power steering pump

they are speaking to Hardin about another route

I am waiting to see what they come up with

a remote system seems eminent

suggestions on placement

I hate drilling holes in fiberglass :)

gcarter
12-17-2015, 02:08 PM
If you look here and the several pages before and after, you'll see how I mounted mine to the stringers.
It'd be hard to improve on this method.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?50476-Now-I-m-getting-serious/page84

yeller
12-17-2015, 02:25 PM
Can you relocate the power steering pump with a different bracket?

If you do go remote, I'd suggest George's placement. I placed mine high because my exchanger had a built in header tank, so I needed to have it at the highest point. This resulted in water hoses taking up all the free space in front of the motor. Makes it a serious pain in the butt to work on the front of the motor or even try and retrieve a dropped item from the bilge floor. With George's setup, the hoses are kept down low and more out of the way.

smokediver
12-17-2015, 02:44 PM
bad news

CP just called and said that the closed system I ordered would not work on my motor due to the placement of my power steering pump

they are speaking to Hardin about another route

I am waiting to see what they come up with

a remote system seems eminent

suggestions on placement

I hate drilling holes in fiberglass :)

It looks as though the brackets use different mounting holes , possibly into the head . You might be able to use spacers and mount it in with the water pump bolts like the Monitor mounts do . That way you can slide the heat exchanger to starboard and get the clearance you need . Those look like pretty hefty brackets !

tmdog
12-17-2015, 05:13 PM
Mounted mine on alum bracket between stringers.

tmdog
12-17-2015, 05:15 PM
Geez, what happen to pic? Grossly xlarge.

JParanee
12-17-2015, 06:43 PM
Thank you guys

I'm sending this thread to my mechanic and I'm waiting to see what CP comes up with also

I really like what all of you have done

I'm sure it will be something along these lines

just bummed i can't get the big shiney tank :)

plus us they already hit my card :)

im sure they will credit everything when we figure it out

JParanee
01-05-2016, 11:04 PM
Okay

after a lot of deliberation and help from George Carter (thx George) :) I have ordered the Monitor High Performance off Engine Kit

thx again George

updates when I get it installed

JayZ
01-06-2016, 08:12 AM
Okay

after a lot of deliberation and help from George Carter (thx George) :) I have ordered the Monitor High Performance of Engine Kit

thx again George

updates when I get it installed

I used this same kit. Temperature is very stable and it is a fairly neat and tidy installation.