anyone also into cars?

[Zudnic]

Watcha got?

I'm having an interesting week with cars. Have 3 that have developed coolant leaks in the past week. First one is my Mercedes 420SEL, the radiator has a crack, second one is my Porsche 928S4, also cracked radiator. New rads came today, install tomorrow if its not raining. Third one is my Porsche Cayenne, it has coolant pipes to the transmission, supposed to be metal, but think they are the old plastic ones that got recalled. New ones being installed latter this week. Now if only my lotto numbers would line up like this. At least I'm not car less. Still have a 944 and the F150.

[gcarter]

I have 5 (and need 6 for tax purposes);
Elaine drives a Pontiac Grand Prix, I drive a Ford Expedition,
then I have 3 Toyota Tundras for my business.
I try to get every available mile out of my vehicles and
then give them away. That way I'm not faced w/the task
of trying to sell my worn out junk. Also, I never buy new.
Pretty mundane stuff, but then I have the Donzi......

[Capevettes]

Yes I am into cars. Have 4 Vettes a Viper and 2 regular cars. With them and the Donzi all I do is fix and maintain things. Not ready to give up just yet.

83116831178311883119

[woobs]

Yep, I raced cars for over 20 years... then I restored a few Porsches but, so glad I have dialed it back to just boats. (In the past 40 years, I have owned over 130 cars.)
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All I have now is my '04 GMC Canyon daily driver/boat tow vehicle and a '10 Volvo V50. The only hobby cars I want now, I can't afford.

[Bobby D]

I’m working on completing a 65 tri-power unit that will be installed over the winter. And that’s an awesome garage my man!

[chip w]

Me too. I'm down to a '91 911 Carrera 2, my F150 tow vehicle and daily driver and my wife's Subaru Forester. I am also part of the crew on a team that races a 911 SC Targa in SCCA. I'm not in Woob's league, but I've owned close to 70 or so cars, bikes and boats including several Ducatis and a Panoz. It's all too much to maintain. These days keeping up with the 911, the Donzi and the race car (and a 5 year old son) takes all my time. Oh yeah, work eats into my time too but does that really count? :bonk:

8312983130

[Zudnic]

Sports cars have been mostly 928S, followed by 944's (turbo and non). Did have a 1989 911 C4 and also a 81 911SC targa. I currently have three 928's, two 85 S models and a 1989 S4. Lost count on how many I have had over the years. Did have five at one point. Have a mechanic friend who specializes in 928's, was at his shop a few weeks ago. Six 928's in for various work. Out of the six, I once owned four of them. That doesn't include the two I sold to the mechanic.

[tmdog]

I’m working on completing a 65 tri-power unit that will be installed over the winter. And that’s an awesome garage my man!

Is those carbs going on a 389? Really good looking Goat. I believe the tri power on a 389 produced 375 hp.

[woobs]

Sports cars have been mostly 928S...

You must be a glutton for punishment but, I'm sure your bank manager loves you!

[Zudnic]

You must be a glutton for punishment but, I'm sure your bank manager loves you!

Its mainly the timing belt. Needs to be done every 30k miles or every 5 years. About $1500 or so. Since you are there doing the belt, might as well do the water pump. Other little things can pop up, but those two are the most frequent.

Saw a car this afternoon. I had one in the early 90's, it was a 70's Datsun 240Z. Great little car and fast when compared to the other 70's sports cars. Too bad they are rust buckets.

[CHACHI]

Saw a car this afternoon. I had one in the early 90's, it was a 70's Datsun 240Z. Great little car and fast when compared to the other 70's sports cars. Too bad they are rust buckets.[/QUOTE]

Was watching "Whats My Car Worth" on Velocity probably a repeat, but one of these 240's rolled across the block for 23K.

Ken

[woobs]

My first real car was a "24 ouncer" (72 240Z). I still love the shape/style and I remember the performance that let that Datsun punch above it's weight. There are still quite a few that have not turned to oxidized dust and they range in value. If I could still fit in one I'd be all over it.

BAT - '73 in very nice shape sold at $15K http://bringatrailer.com/listing/1973-datsun-240z-9/

BAT - Another '73 (not quite as nice) currently available... last bid $ 11,500 http://bringatrailer.com/listing/1973-datsun-240z-10/

[gcarter]

Its mainly the timing belt. Needs to be done every 30k miles or every 5 years. About $1500 or so. Since you are there doing the belt, might as well do the water pump. Other little things can pop up, but those two are the most frequent.

All my tundras have timing belts. They'll last past 100K miles. Jillions of other lower cost cars and trucks do too.
I find it offensive that exotic and semi-exotic (can't be truly exotic if 50,000/year are built) car MFGRS do this timing belt thing concerning short maintenance schedules. Are they admitting their engineering is deficient and sub-standard? Why buy a car that requires timing belt, water pump, and other auxiliary maintenance on such a short schedule? Can't the MFGR be satisfied w/the bloated profit attained at the point of sale? Why is it necessary to keep on scalping the customer for as long as he owns the car? Is the joy of ownership equal to the malevolence that occurs during ownership?

Before Fiat bought Ferrari, their engines had chains. Yes chains will eventually stretch but that would be after years and years of use. I remember reading a justification in Sports Car Market magazine for a Ferrari dealer charging approximately $10K for timing belt and oil change. Of course a complete drive train removal is required. That's offensive to me, even if the money meant nothing.

[gcarter]

I had a 280Z ('78 or so), I changed out some of the front rubber suspension bushings for some harder parts.
What a difference it made. On the way to my then current job were some "S" curves. After the suspension part changes
I could get through those curves 10 MPH faster. The Z car chassis really responded to hardware upgrades and was
an overall fun car to own. BTW, its OH cam was driven by a chain and allowed for two different adjustments to compensate for stretch.....we're talking about well over 100K miles and required approximately 30 minutes to acomplish.

[BUIZILLA]

All my tundras have timing belts. They'll last past 100K miles. HMMMM, mine has just under 170,000.... :wrench: still purr's like day 1... i'm afraid to touch this thing it's been so damn reliable

[gcarter]

HMMMM, mine has just under 170,000.... :wrench: still purr's like day 1... i'm afraid to touch this thing it's been so damn reliable
Jim, I can tell you what will eventually happen if you don't change it at some point, hopefully before it (the belt) comes apart. The result of it caused me to change the other V-6's belt earlier than I planned.
I think it happened in the 180K-200K mile range.
It was cheaper to change it early...similar mileage to yours.

[BUIZILLA]

jim, i can tell you what will eventually happen if you don't change it at some point, hopefully before it (the belt) comes apart. The result of it caused me to change the other v-6's belt earlier than i planned.
I think it happened in the 180k-200k mile range.
It was cheaper to change it early...similar mileage to yours. 3.4 v6 ??

[gcarter]

3.4 v6 ??

Yep, and as you've seen, I have two of them. One now has 225,000 miles, and the other has 190,000 ish miles.
What happened to the high mile truck at around 180,000 miles, the water pump failed which is located inside the belt's plastic housing and may be driven by the timing belt. The timing belt then snapped and the engine died (apparently not an interference engine). The bad part part was the tow to my mechanic's shop, followed by about 4 hours of cleaning out all the belt parts. It (the belt) literally shattered into hundreds of pieces and stuck to the front of the engine. Probably had something to do w/all the hot coolant. Perhaps if the pump hadn't failed, the belt may have lasted longer. Either way, they last a long time and are very reliable. Mine's still going strong and there was no other damage other than the belt and pump. I had the other changed w/in two weeks.

[woobs]

My truck is a GMC Canyon 4x4 with the 3.5l I5 DOHC engine. It is approaching 300,000 Kms (185,000 mi) and has no issues. Of course. it has a real timing chain and requires no special maintenance!

While not a full sized truck, it does everything I need it to including, towing my 18' boat on a single trailer beautifully at Hwy speeds (120Km/h, 75 Mph). It is also pretty good on gas so, needless to say, I am VERY happy with this vehicle :) .

The 928 is a nice touring/sport vehicle except the cost/effort to keep them running (if you drive them regularly) is humongous. Even when they were new they were maintenance pigs. I have been tempted a couple of times to add one to the stable but, then the fog clears and I am saved by running away.

[woobs]

Some of the more interesting cars I've had...

The 911 RS lightweight is a clone made from a 69S. I had updated all the suspension and eventually put in a 3.6.

The Vette was a '79 SBC factory 4 speed car. Biggest POS I have owned as it was near impossible to drive.

The flip side is the MINI Cooper S JCW... so much fun to drive! The supercharger whine is addictive but, breaking the local speed limit while shifting into 2nd (it's a 6 speed) had me paranoid looking for the local constabulary (That and BMW parts/maintenance costs).

The BMW 325IX Touring (wagon) was interesting. I imported it from Germany, purchased from the original owner with all service documents. Full time 4wd could pass anything (in any weather) but a gas station.

The last one here is an AMG E400. This car was produced for a diplomat in Japan. Nothing not to love about it... ride, V8 power, handling and surprisingly good on gas if you didn't push it.

[bertsboat]

Should have held the Porsche, they are on fire.....


Yep, I raced cars for over 20 years... then I restored a few Porsches but, so glad I have dialed it back to just boats. (In the past 40 years, I have owned over 130 cars.)
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All I have now is my '04 GMC Canyon daily driver/boat tow vehicle and a '10 Volvo V50. The only hobby cars I want now, I can't afford.

[woobs]

Should have held the Porsche, they are on fire.....

Yes, I kick myself for selling my 72S. It is a rare and desirable 2.4 mechanical FI car. Mine had some interesting features like German gauges, SC suspension, and English driver door trim. It took a 2nd at the Hershey show in '02. I let it go for $ 24,000 and I just saw one sell for $70,000 that was not as nice.

[gcarter]

I think these are stupid times for car collecting.
I have to assume the craze is fueled by 2 things:
1) Not many other ways to invest your money and expect any reasonable return on that investment. This is also the reason my business is suddenly much more valuable than it was in the past, folks are interested in small businesses and the 12%-18% return they provide.
2) There's a lot of folks wanting the muscle cars and other collectible cars they couldn't afford before they retired.
There may be more reasons, but these will do.
I'm old enough to remember when old sports cars and exotic cars were just old cars. One could buy most anything you could imagine for well under $10K. How about John Mecom Jr's (oil guy from Houston) Ferrari 250 GTO and a spare engine for $5,500.00? A '59 or so AC Aceca coupe for about $1,000.00. Even into the '70's, Ferraris, lamborghinis, Maseratis for $5-7K. All you wanted.
One day the bubble will burst, just like it did once before, and these will simply be over restored used cars once again.
But I probably need to sell my business before the bust comes.

[woobs]

George, I agree... and well, almost disagree.

Agreed that these are bad times for the average car collector. Without going into exotics, I see what would be fun hobby cars worth about 5K selling at crazy prices 3-5x the value. This is not just the sentimental TR6's, Camaros, Falcons and the like (domestic & import) but, pretty much anything old and decent. As you pointed out Porsches have skyrocketed in the past 5 years to the point they are almost unobtainable by an average enthusiast.

However, I must say that investing in a classic car must be done because you like the car and not purely in expectation of a profit. (Just like Art)

I look at things , at least from a Canadian perspective, whereby most established middle class people have had a good run over the past 15 or so years. We have done well and could afford those cars of our youth. Now, with the state of the economy coupled with the divergence between the middle class and the top, (with the latter shrinking in numbers but growing in power, opposite to the middle class) a few of the wealthy are able to purchase anything they want at crazy prices... and everyone else must hold on with hope to get that price as if each sale sets a precedent.

You are correct when you say that soon, people will realize that they can't get the top dollar, prices will fall and many that purchased as a trendy "rich guy status" thing will be out of the market. Then the real car guys will start it all over again. But, there will always be cars that are low supply high demand high dollar no matter where the cycle.

[Zudnic]

First the Z car, mine was the same color as the one pictured. My Dad was the original Z owner in the family. He had a Karmann Ghia and crashed it the day I was born in 72. He bought a new 240 to replace it. He then upgraded to the 260Z when they came out, and then a 280Z. His last Z was an 81 280ZX turbo, a slightly different car then the 70's Z cars. If you look up the performance data, the Z was the fastest Japanese car of the times, it was one of the fastest cars around. Even against the exotics.

Now the problem with European cars is the European manufactures have discovered people will do preventative maintenance earlier then necessary. So they have a reputation of being expensive and always needing something. On my Mercedes, I haven't followed the dealer service recommendations for years. I did replace the shocks, it has 190k kilometers on it, other then oil changes, the radiator is the only other thing its needed in seven years. Almost the same as the 928, except I did the timing belt, the recommend is early, shops make more money doing it more frequent, it was piece of mind and more like insurance deal.

I actually have a list and started a thread on a car from, what from the 70's and 80's will become collectible? I want most of the cars on my list. The thread was back in 2013, a few cars talked about have doubled in value since then. Its almost a rising tide lifts all boats, especially with 70's and 80's Ferraris and Porsches. It is true even in the 80's boom, you could get some Ferrari's and Porsche's very cheap, nobody wanted 70's 911's, even the Porsche Magazine Excellence said to avoid them and get latter 80's versions. In 1990 I bought a 85 Corvette for the same money I could have bought a Dino Ferrari, nobody wanted them. Now the Dino's are $380k to $500k cars.

Our new Prime Minister believes the rise in value in small business is because small businesses are tools for the rich to hide wealth.

[JimG]

Love me some Porsche! The Abarth is my DD, tons of fun!

[bertsboat]

Sean,
Well said. I agree 100% with everything you and Carter are saying. Boats on the other hand are not doing what one would hope for. You would think a freshly restored boat would fetch far more than it costs to bring it back to life but nos so (not yet anyway). I have found that you can expect to lose at least 60% of what you invest and the labor you can expect to lose it all.
Guys that can do the work themselves are buying cheap and doing it themselves. Guys that can't do that kind of work are buying finished boats and buying them cheap. Maybe you can explain that Sean.
If you do a boat like the one G Carter did, you have to love the boat and use it like it was free, just like classic cars. If you get one you had better enjoy it, for one day when you sell it someone else will.



George, I agree... and well, almost disagree.

Agreed that these are bad times for the average car collector. Without going into exotics, I see what would be fun hobby cars worth about 5K selling at crazy prices 3-5x the value. This is not just the sentimental TR6's, Camaros, Falcons and the like (domestic & import) but, pretty much anything old and decent. As you pointed out Porsches have skyrocketed in the past 5 years to the point they are almost unobtainable by an average enthusiast.

However, I must say that investing in a classic car must be done because you like the car and not purely in expectation of a profit. (Just like Art)

I look at things , at least from a Canadian perspective, whereby most established middle class people have had a good run over the past 15 or so years. We have done well and could afford those cars of our youth. Now, with the state of the economy coupled with the divergence between the middle class and the top, (with the latter shrinking in numbers but growing in power, opposite to the middle class) a few of the wealthy are able to purchase anything they want at crazy prices... and everyone else must hold on with hope to get that price as if each sale sets a precedent.

You are correct when you say that soon, people will realize that they can't get the top dollar, prices will fall and many that purchased as a trendy "rich guy status" thing will be out of the market. Then the real car guys will start it all over again. But, there will always be cars that are low supply high demand high dollar no matter where the cycle.

[bertsboat]

That is one sweet looking car Sean!!


Yes, I kick myself for selling my 72S. It is a rare and desirable 2.4 mechanical FI car. Mine had some interesting features like German gauges, SC suspension, and English driver door trim. It took a 2nd at the Hershey show in '02. I let it go for $ 24,000 and I just saw one sell for $70,000 that was not as nice.

[woobs]

Boats are another thing altogether....

Bert, I think in the BIG scheme there are really very few boat collectors. For most boaters, it`s like an appliance so, they buy what does the job (they`d rather buy new as there`s no value in an old boat) and then run the crap out of them for years until they dispose of it. Also, there`s plenty of boats in all price brackets and since boats have been basically disposable for decades there`s always another one coming available cheaper....(initially cheaper but, people don`t think forward).

When it comes to a classic restored boat I hear people say `you can`t build one for that`(which is usually true) but, there`s plenty of substitutes you can buy for less. So, the prices stay low (All bets are off when it comes to enthusiasts...but, most of us are poor so the prices need to be low :) ). You need to find that `right guy`. Then again, some people just put more importance on certain boats than other do.

Truthfully, there are just too many boats on the market. They don`t rust like cars and even crappy ones can look good from 25 feet away. We still see even rare boats being pulled out of the weeds for a full restoration. The acquisition cost is low so why buy the high priced resto job someone else did (especially if you don`t know their work). High supply keeps the prices down.

I have to hand it to people like Mark (f_inscreenname) that restore boats for for the joy of it and as economically as possible...Damn few like him. I still can`t believe he sells them so quick!

I'm quite active in the "woodyboat" culture around here and if you thought it was bad with FG boats... just look at the woodies! The new ACBS fad is to buy old POS FG boats that look FUGLY (the fuglier the better) and restore them to win trophies. The costs are so low compared to wood boats they are laughing about it. But, this is driving up restoration costs.

[Zudnic]

I wouldn't totally blame the rich! Yes, the middle class has done very well over the last 15years. Another area that has improved over the last 30 years is retirement savings. There is middle class baby boomers retiring and generating the same income as they did working. Lots of jobs offered generous pensions, etc. Now add in low interest credit, banks will easily give a huge line of credit on very little income. Credit is fueling the higher prices for the most part. Second is some have lots of cash after downsizing their homes and their buying a toy.

[Zudnic]

Just thought of this. Family friends have retired very well. One was an engineer on the BC Ferries and the other a school teacher. She ended up getting a PHD and ran the special needs program for a school district. Well paid. Both government jobs, very good pensions. They bought their family home in 1977. Both saved for retirement and also have investments with decent returns. Their combined pension income is a $164k per year before taxes. Their sitting on so much retirement savings cash, they don't know what to do with it. They paid $75k for their house, they had a large inheritance to make a huge down payment. Houses in their neighborhood now sell between $850k to just over $1million. No tax on a house sale if the home was the principal residence. They sold and upgraded to a nicer bigger house on a 2acre lot. House nice enough that you wonder how did a retired BC Ferries worker and teacher afford it. Funny thing is they are the rich Trudeau was talking about taxing more.

He also bought an 81 911SC targa eight years ago for $12,500 cash. He wanted one back in the 80's but couldn't afford it. Now he'd be willing to pay $40k for the same car and it would be all cash.

[gcarter]

This is a true story. When I was 22 years old in '66, I met a guy at the Houston drag strip.
We got to talking about building a drag car. We looked at all the classes (well, almost all)
and decided that "C Modified Sports Car" was the sweet spot for us. At the time, the national record was held by an Austin Healey 3000 powered by Chevy 327.
It turned out my friend had recently moved from California to work at NASA for Lockheed and had previously owned a '55 or so Ferrari MM coupe w/a 2.6 L Columbo V-12.
Mind you, this was just an old worn out car that at the time he stopped driving it, was 9 or 10 years old. The reason for the status change was the engine was completely worn out and he was stopped by the California smog patrol. He installed a SBC in the Ferrari and sold it. He had kept the engine and it still resided in CA.
Our plan was to buy an AH Sprite, which I did for $100.00. Different time, remember?
We gutted the car and installed a narrowed Chevy rear end w/5.12 gears. The plans for the engine was to have the crank welded up as it was badly scored. In those day, Ferrari used billet cranks, and this sucker was over 30" long. The original chunk of metal must have weighed a lot. New rods and pistons followed by a change to coil valve springs from the original hairpin springs. Add on new billet cams (2) and 3 custom intake manifolds and a variation on mechanical fuel injection. We figured we could achieve a dependable 300 HP. C Modified Sports Car allowed a 25% engine set back, which w/the long engine, put it right in the middle of the 80" wheelbase car. We used a 4 speed transmission from a Volvo (it was very short and robust).
Anyway, I got married soon after it was pretty far along, and then my friend did too. I think he sold it to someone but I just didn't keep track.
A couple of years ago, Sports Car Market magazine ran a report on a '55 Ferrari MM coupe. The engine had been removed at an earlier time and replaced w/a SBC.
W/the replacement Ferrari engine that was installed when the Ferrari was restored, the car was only worth about $3.5M.
These things are crazy and not sustainable.
I think if I were a collector, or had some cars that had been rapidly appreciating, I'd be thinking about cashing out.

[Zudnic]

I rented a car dealer license in the 90's from a semi retired guy. He died this year. Anyway, he came to Canada in 1948 from Rome. Somehow he started a driving school in Toronto. He noticed his immigrant students also needed cars. So he started selling cars. Most of these immigrants were Italian and they all wanted European cars. He started buying used Mercedes, etc. in the U.S. and selling them here. He turned down the offer for a Mercedes dealership in the 1950's. Anyway, If you wanted a used European car in Toronto in the 50's,60's and 70's, his was the place. He made a fortune. He had 300SL Gullwings, Ferrari's, etc. The current owner of the Ferrari Distributorship in Canada, once worked for my guy.

There is an old picture of his car lot in the 1970's, in it you can see a couple Rolls Royce's and even a Lamborghini Miura (these sell for $2million today). It was crazy the cars he owned. I noticed I uploaded a 928 awhile ago to the site. Its now sold and believe I've had four or five different ones since then.

8315583156

[RickSE]

Most of our stuff has been related to drags the last few years. This is the third year in a row that our Donzi didn't make it to the water :frown: but we just wrapped up our 2015 season in the cars and managed to meet every goal we had for this year. Now on to next years goals... Our daughter runs the blue car in the older age groups for NHRA. We run a 3.5" x 3.00" flat head that makes about 50-HP on methanol. ET's are usually 7.90 seconds in the 1/8th mile. Our son has been running the black car but both kids are now licensed in the car. This is a newer class in the Jr program called Jr Comp but this car can also be run in the 1/4 mile and has a Super Comp chassis certification. We run a stock Suzuki Hayabusa (1300cc) powertrain in the car and it runs in a 6.90 second Index class for the Jr program. Just all kinds of power in that little Busa and it's a fun car to drive with a 6-speed auto or manual air shift. So far the Comp car has been deadly consistent, ran 6.901 in the semi and final round last Saturday to win and then won again on Sunday. NHRA has asked us to do exhibition runs in the black car at the Tayota Nationals in Vegas next weekend.

Blue Car (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hE2exauGTDM)

Black Comp Car (https://vimeo.com/139299708)

[gcarter]

Rick, that's wonderful that you've been so successful w/your kids!
I bet it strains the budget w/all those cars.

[gcarter]

Speaking of Hayabusa engines and the projects they are installed into,
take a look at the Bugatti 100P project that has built a replica of the
prototype French fighter plane Bugatti built just before WW-II.
On Facebook, look at https://www.facebook.com/TheBugatti100pProject?fref=ts
They also have a website for those that don't do FB: www.bugatti100p.com/ .
The original plane, that never flew, was powered by 2 Bugatti 5.0 L straight 8 engines
located amidship.
The new plane is powered by 2 Hayabusa engines following the same layout.
The main difference is, this plane is undergoing continued flight testing as we speak.

https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/t31.0-8/s2048x2048/906105_869605353116605_1837704510924408936_o.jpg

[Bobby D]

Yes it a 389 and in 1965 the tri-power put out 360HP @ 5200rpm.

[Just Say N20]

The cost of cars continues to amaze me.

I was in high school from 70 - 74. During my junior year, one of my good friends bought a 1965 GTO Convertible. Red paint, black interior, black roof, 389 - Tri-power, 4-speed. This was his daily driver car. A high school kid with a part time job could afford to own that car.

Another friend in high school bought a brand new Cuda with a 440.

One of my fraternity brother's every day car was an immaculate 57 Chevy convertible. Sea Foam green, white interior, white top, 283 w/automatic 2-speed.

So here I am as a adult with a real job, and I could no more afford any of those cars than I could fly to the moon. My daily driver is a 2005 Magnum R/T (bought new in August 2006) with 254,000 miles on it. Yes, those are Chrysler 300 rims. The original Dodge R/T rims began flaking after 6 months and Dodge told me to go pound sand.

[Zudnic]

I feel sorry for some kids these days we had better used car options. My brother was two years older, so when he was 15/16, kids could get some cool cars on part time jobs. Like around 84/5 time frame. Knew a guy who delivered pizza, he had a 70's Datsun to deliver pizza's with and a 1980 Camaro Z28 for school. We knew guys working at gas stations with 70's Trans Am, to even 60's early 70's Camaro's. Also had a few truck guys. My brother worked at the airport filling planes. He had a private license at 16, making him valuable at the airport. He could move planes from the hangars to the gas pumps. He'd get nice tips for the extra service. At 17 he bought a year old Toyota 4X4.