Arneson Surface Drive On 22 Classic . . . . .

[Carl C]

Has it been done? What are the thoughts and opinions on this.

[Pat McPherson]

Seen an 18X and heard of a Minx, but not sure it's worth the $$ and effort. Typically the change is made because B1 drives cant take huge HP. Even if you put 700HP in a 22C an XR would probably last 50-100hours...
The props for an Arneson cost as much as a Bravo rebuild...:eek:

I would think a Blackhawk would be a better option if you want a surface drive...

[Carl C]

Seen an 18X and heard of a Minx, but not sure it's worth the $$ and effort. Typically the change is made because B1 drives cant take huge HP. Even if you put 700HP in a 22C an XR would probably last 50-100hours...
The props for an Arneson cost as much as a Bravo rebuild...:eek:

I would think a Blackhawk would be a better option if you want a surface drive...

No, no Blackhawk. That is still an outdrive with weaknesses. An Arneson eliminates all of the drag of pulling a drive through the water and they are bulletproof. They don't have to change the direction of rotation twice through two sets of gears. Yes, they've been proven to work on an 18 but how well would one carry a 22? I've already blown a X1 upper because it wasn't up to the task of running 80s in offshore conditions. Blew a XR upper because the bearing preload nut backed off and wore out the gears in my Imco lower this year after over 200 hours on it. I also have something else up my sleeve . . . .

[smokediver]

Chris Allard , CDMA , was working on a 22 with an arneson. Do a search and you might find it. Never heard if it was completed.

[yeller]

I remember reading that it didn't work on the 22. I forget where it was but I was surprised at the speed. Not good.
The talk was that it might work on a Blackhawk hull because of the extra rocker adding bow lift.

[gcarter]

I think we should invite Jeff Hall to opine on his Minx experience.
I haven't spent a lot of time getting his impressions, but I seem to
remember he had porpoising issues and less than expected top speed.
Hopefully, he'll share.

I've read about other single screw boats that had less than wonderful
results. maybe we should look for really successful examples and figure
out what makes them right.

[Carl C]

The 22 definitely needs more bow lift and that is one of my main concerns; No way to trim up and get the hull out of the water.

[HallJ]

Mine likes to porpoise. I've moved weight around and lengthened strakes. Three feet extra didn't make much difference.
212 lbs in the front made it better but not quite the right answer.
A 17.75x24p four blade Rolla made it much much better. Unfortunately it wasn't mine.
i need to find one for sale. Big diameter and at least four blade works best on my boat. I am currently running a 17x24 three blade cleaver.
Some longer tabs will probably help as well. I have the stock Bennets but I
may put some 280s on but only after I find another four blade.

Kenny's 22 wouldn't lift the bow no matter what.
I would think a 22 would need the inner strakes shortened to give it half a chance of working. A chopper prop Like a Hoss would be needed as well.
It's definitely a project.

Jeff

[Ed Donnelly]

Didn't Geoo make several modifications to his Arneson, and didn't Arneson even incorporate one of his mods into their units?

I think he is the one Carl should be talking to...Ed

[Ed Donnelly]

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Post Arneson's Pro's & Con's ???
BOY..... I hope everyone enjoys The Arneson Drive as much as I do.. The drive is real fast in it's normal state, if you have the bow lift. (ie. proper CG and or rocker). I needed to create bow lift with an added fin, which creates alot of drag. The fin gives bow lift, less hull drag, more drive drag. The fin pulls the transom down into the water and gives stability. The faster you go the more drag from the fin and the more power you need. Without proper bow lift you'll end up with bow steer, not a good thing, Trust Me... GEOO

[Carl C]

Ed, Geo's was an 18X and that's a whole different animal! The 22 is bigger and heavier and needs some leverage to keep the hull from plowing through the water.

[Ed Donnelly]

Carl He had the same problem with the 18 if you read what he said.
He had to get the bow up on the 18. What he did by adding the extra fin got the bow up. No reason why it wouldn't do the same with a 22 ....Ed

[yeller]

You may be right Ed. I think it would work on a 22 also and I have no problem spending Carls money to prove it. :yes:

[Carl C]

Carl He had the same problem with the 18 if you read what he said.
He had to get the bow up on the 18. What he did by adding the extra fin got the bow up. No reason why it wouldn't do the same with a 22 ....Ed

OK, I'm guilty of reading your post too fast. A fin was needed to generate bow lift on an 18 and the fin partially offset the benefit of not dragging a drive through the water. A 22 would need an even bigger and stronger "fin". It's not looking good for an arneson on a 22......

[gcarter]

Let's not forget that Donzi couldn't get the Blackhawk drive to work well on
a 22C hull. Just a reminder, rocker was added to the hull to get bow lift,
and all the negative handling problems that accompanied the hull change.

I still think we should look for a similarly sized single screw hull that's successful.
It may not be easily attainable..............

[gcarter]

Sitting here thinking about successful surface drive boats.......
Many are on stepped hulls which run flat anyway, so maybe
that's what's required. Stepless hulls need bow lift, hulls w/two
or more steps run completely flat since the hull has two or
more leading edges (or bows). Hence Arnisons work better.

[Ed Donnelly]

Give it a try Carl. It's only money and you can't take it with you. Stick on a procharger and away you go.
Now if it were my boat I would scrap the Merc drive, put on a 270T with an E lower unit ...Ed

[Just Say N20]

Now if it were my boat I would scrap the Merc drive, put on a 270T with an E lower unit ...Ed

Interesting comment. . . . 😎

[Carl C]

That makes a lot of sense George. I had wondered why they were putting steps all the way up to the front of hulls now. Ed, a Volvo? Really? Looks like an Arny is out; I don't think it will work. I'd like to see Bjorn check back in with some more details on his setup running 112 with a pro-charged 540.

[gcarter]

Ilmore?

[Scott Pearson]

Ken Lessard had one on his black 22 classic with a twin turbo BB Chevy. He had the boat at our Dust-Off about 5 -6 years ago.

[MDonziM]

My 2c after doing a big engine build and a Blackhawk on a standard 22 hull.

The Blackhawk has certain benefits in high speed handling but other drawbacks. Granted mine was mounted deep on a standard '94 bravo setup but the boat ran very flat and wet. My impression was that if it could have trimmed more it would have been 5 or 6mph faster. Carl, if you compare our 22's mine had an added 100hp to yours and only managed 1mph faster so I don't think it was the fastest drive setup for the motor/hull. The Blackhawk was also not good in rough/sloppy water conditions. I have no Arneson experience but agree with your concept that the 22 needs leverage and bow-lift for max speed, so from my thinking it would not be the best candidate. If you are considering going for more hp why not consider a BMaxx drive? I'm pretty sure they are good to 700hp, maybe more on a 22.

- M

[Ed Donnelly]

That makes a lot of sense George. I had wondered why they were putting steps all the way up to the front of hulls now. Ed, a Volvo? Really? Looks like an Arny is out; I don't think it will work. I'd like to see Bjorn check back in with some more details on his setup running 112 with a pro-charged 540.


Quote Originally Posted by MOP View Post
That is "Donzis" boat from Mass it was initially setup with the 454 but I suspect that will change!

He is a really nice guy. I have a fin that goes on your skeg that helps you carry the bow that he built. He also has a 6 blade Hydromotive prop like the one that I have that he was trying to run on his.

I am thinking about putting one on my ZX if my drive goes out. I think that a guy over in GA is thinking about putting one on his ZX too!!

Carl; don't laugh at the Volvo. I put a lot more horsepower through mine than
You have. It is a lot stronger than your Merc..Ed

[Carl C]

Ken Lessard had one on his black 22 classic with a twin turbo BB Chevy. He had the boat at our Dust-Off about 5 -6 years ago.

That's cool! Thanks, Scott.


My 2c after doing a big engine build and a Blackhawk on a standard 22 hull.
The Blackhawk has certain benefits in high speed handling but other drawbacks. Granted mine was mounted deep on a standard '94 bravo setup but the boat ran very flat and wet. My impression was that if it could have trimmed more it would have been 5 or 6mph faster. Carl, if you compare our 22's mine had an added 100hp to yours and only managed 1mph faster so I don't think it was the fastest drive setup for the motor/hull. The Blackhawk was also not good in rough/sloppy water conditions. I have no Arneson experience but agree with your concept that the 22 needs leverage and bow-lift for max speed, so from my thinking it would not be the best candidate. If you are considering going for more hp why not consider a BMaxx drive? I'm pretty sure they are good to 700hp, maybe more on a 22.
- M

Good stuff. I'm not interested in doing a blackhawk and I'm now convinced that an Arneson won't work well. If I don't up my power then I think I will stick with the XR/Imco combo. My upper has had the bearings hard shimmed and the gears looked perfect with Brian Orlandi's camera probe.


Quote Originally Posted by MOP View Post
That is "Donzis" boat from Mass it was initially setup with the 454 but I suspect that will change!
He is a really nice guy. I have a fin that goes on your skeg that helps you carry the bow that he built. He also has a 6 blade Hydromotive prop like the one that I have that he was trying to run on his.
I am thinking about putting one on my ZX if my drive goes out. I think that a guy over in GA is thinking about putting one on his ZX too!!
Carl; don't laugh at the Volvo. I put a lot more horsepower through mine than
You have. It is a lot stronger than your Merc..Ed

The running attitude of my boat is dialed in with minimal positive trim. It looks exactly like Bjorn's boat running 112 but 27 mph slower! I'm pretty happy with the package I put together. Much more speed would be useless on the Great Lakes. JK on the Volvo. I know they are tough but one won't be making it's way onto my boat. :) I hate knowing that the drive is my weak link and I grimace every time I don't throttle back in time when getting air. I was mostly wondering if an Arneson could eliminate that weak link while adding quite a bit of top end from not dragging a drive through the water. Now I see that it won't.

[yeller]

How about an SCX4? The -2 shorty is proven to work on the 22. A -4 might do even better....and it's a lot stronger.

I know your not interested in a BH and I don't blame you, so I apologize if I'm taking your thread off topic, But to talk about the BH a bit (because it is a surface drive also). It is too bad they are out of production because it would be interesting to see how they would do on a 22 at different drive heights. I know Donzi tried to make it work as a true surface drive but did they experiment at different heights on a non BH hull? i don't think anyone's tried raising the BH from stock X on a 22. We all know raising it on an 18 is extra speed. Is there a spot on the 22 between stock X and true surface drive that will get noticeable extra mph? Mine is an inch or two higher than MdonziM and I got 86 gps out of it on its first run (and only gps'd run) with about 525-550hp. I'm sure I could of got a couple more mph if I hadn't killed the motor. If I ever get the boat running again I'll have another 100hp but it won't do me any good because I was at the limit of the props with 550hp I don't want to spin the drive or motor any faster. I have thought of putting a 1:36 gear set in it but I'm not too enthused about spending money on an obsolete drive.

[yeller]

Ken Lessard had one on his black 22 classic with a twin turbo BB Chevy. He had the boat at our Dust-Off about 5 -6 years ago.
.......and how did it run? I remember when he started building that setup. I was super interested because I love dual turbo setups but I don't recall him ever posting about it after it was done

[gcarter]

Mine likes to porpoise. I've moved weight around and lengthened strakes. Three feet extra didn't make much difference.
212 lbs in the front made it better but not quite the right answer.
A 17.75x24p four blade Rolla made it much much better. Unfortunately it wasn't mine.
i need to find one for sale. Big diameter and at least four blade works best on my boat. I am currently running a 17x24 three blade cleaver.
Some longer tabs will probably help as well. I have the stock Bennets but I
may put some 280s on but only after I find another four blade.

Kenny's 22 wouldn't lift the bow no matter what.
I would think a 22 would need the inner strakes shortened to give it half a chance of working. A chopper prop Like a Hoss would be needed as well.
It's definitely a project.

Jeff

I reposted Jeff Hall's post for Yeller.

[MOP]

Arneson rockers did a great job on on Geo's boat, added quite a bit of speed. I would like to see a 22 with the rockers might do the trick.

[HallJ]

I think Kenny tried those too but I could be mistaken.
It's very strange that my boat has the opposite problem.

Jeff

[joseph m. hahnl]

I recently bought all the tools to rebuild my own Alpha upper. I put a 1.32 :1 gear set in for added strength. The 400 is pushing the limits of the drive. The SE drive I was running must of spun the pinion nut loose as the bearing pack was loose on the gear set. It also had a broken shaft on the driven gear. I purchased a used drive and it lasted a month before it popped the bearing pack and the driven gear bearing which in turn toasted the drive case. The bearing pack is pretty well stuck so I can't get it apart. There was a lot of metal so I couldn't risk using the lower. It was a total loss. I rebuilt my original gear case and it is all together and back on the Minx, Just needs oil and the prop put back on. I have another 1.32 :1 gear set for the SE drive But no bearings as of yet. I will build that as a spare. Both gear set are hard shimmed bearings. Why Merc ever went to the press fit gear and rolling torque on the Gen II and the Bravo is beyond me. So the point to all this is? Keep the Bravo, buy the tools, and fix your own drive :biggrin.:

[bertsboat]

I am looking for a set of Arneson rockers if any one knows where I may find a set. Much appreciated.



Arneson rockers did a great job on on Geo's boat, added quite a bit of speed. I would like to see a 22 with the rockers might do the trick.

[Greg Guimond]

Ed, Geo's was an 18X and that's a whole different animal! The 22 is bigger and heavier and needs some leverage to keep the hull from plowing through the water.

Carl, what's your ultimate goal with your 22 Classic with the Arneson thought? Is it to handle better, or achieve a better top speed than 85?

[Greg Guimond]

And what would this thing cost? Looks like at least 10 grand to me.

[Carl C]

I recently bought all the tools to rebuild my own Alpha upper. I put a 1.32 :1 gear set in for added strength. The 400 is pushing the limits of the drive. The SE drive I was running must of spun the pinion nut loose as the bearing pack was loose on the gear set. It also had a broken shaft on the driven gear. I purchased a used drive and it lasted a month before it popped the bearing pack and the driven gear bearing which in turn toasted the drive case. The bearing pack is pretty well stuck so I can't get it apart. There was a lot of metal so I couldn't risk using the lower. It was a total loss. I rebuilt my original gear case and it is all together and back on the Minx, Just needs oil and the prop put back on. I have another 1.32 :1 gear set for the SE drive But no bearings as of yet. I will build that as a spare. Both gear set are hard shimmed bearings. Why Merc ever went to the press fit gear and rolling torque on the Gen II and the Bravo is beyond me. So the point to all this is? Keep the Bravo, buy the tools, and fix your own drive :biggrin.:

Good point and I do already have some of the special tools. The cost of the gears, especially the uppers, is crazy high though and my mechanic gets discounts on parts and charges reasonable labor (Orlandi Performance).


Carl, what's your ultimate goal with your 22 Classic with the Arneson thought? Is it to handle better, or achieve a better top speed than 85?

Ultimate goal is to build a better package overall. Right now I was just looking for experience and opinions on doing the conversion. I just had my lower rebuilt and my upper looked like new inside so I have a good drive now. I thought that if an Arneson worked well on a 22 Classic it could possibly be a win win win situation. Better speed, better handling and a bullet proof drive. If that were the case then $10,000+ would be money well spent. Now it looks like an Arny would not be the hot set-up on this boat. I am really pretty happy with the boat now as it is dialed in well and most of my boating is on the Great Lakes where I rarely want more top end. I need to keep improving my throttling skills. Part of what got me thinking about this was because I was challenged by a well known member of the Donzi community to run title for title. Really just an exercise in thinking as it's not going to happen. 1,500 hp with off-shore mounts, av gas, full racing gear, all excess weight removed, a strong drive and big nuts could make 140 mph a reality and win that bet though. Bjorn is running 112 with a conventional stern drive so I think that is the way to go. I cannot afford to be the guinea pig and I am never looking to be the fastest. So that's what got me thinking about it and then I was wondering if an Arneson might work well on my boat as is with mild power. It won't if it will push the bow down without further modifications and experimentation. I think my question has been answered and I appreciate all of the replies.

[Kirbyvv]

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?50718-Arneson-Series&highlight=

Link to Kenny's Arneson project.

[Greg Guimond]

And what would this thing cost? Looks like at least 10 grand to me.

I take that back. $22,000 on Ebay for one of these Arneson conversion drives.

[bertsboat]

That price includes a Bam 72C, propeller steering rams and all. I'm not saying its a steal, the guy says he paid 35K for it all. And, it didn't sell at 22K


I take that back. $22,000 on Ebay for one of these Arneson conversion drives.

[joseph m. hahnl]

LMFAO Carl!!!!!!!! you mean the member with 700 HP that produces ZERO horse power.:kingme:

[duckhunter]

Let's not do this again... :bonk:

You guys stay classy!

[Lenny]

I'm watching folks... play nice...

You WILL get a time out if this ends up in name calling and eventually the sewer like similar posts have in the past... the site and our wonderful membership don't need this...

...seriously...

:rolleyes:

[Greg Guimond]

That price includes a Bam 72C, propeller steering rams and all. I'm not saying its a steal, the guy says he paid 35K for it all. And, it didn't sell at 22K

Wouldn't you need all the stuff to make a proper swap?

[Lenny]

Certainly the tranny and rams...

It's not cheap and I, like others, wouldn't want to be the guinea pig using my wallet.

[osur866]

Add a Whipple, buy a spare upper to have run the boat respectively and trade out the uppers every 30-50 hrs and put a new set of gears in the other while still using the boat, you'll add about 10-15 mph without disturbing your handeling. Buy doing so you'd be time and $$ ahead and you will have a easier boat to maintain in the future. Not to brag, as I'm knocking on wood, I'm running a STOCK Bravo 1 upper with 660 hrs on it that's never been opened up with 600 HP In front of it, yes you can break anything but an XR with a 525 In Front of it in a 22, a pretty light boat, should last a long while. I wouldn't even think of going to a project like the Arny on it, fwiw I believe Ted tried a few different drives heights on his 22/Ilmore and if I recall correctly the -3" lower he could t get on plain and ended up with a -2" and his was a 700 Ilmore with XR upper. I'll add that in the last 3 seasons I've switched over to "The Bravo Shop" brand of lower unit oil, from the factory merc Hi-perf. Stuff, I used to get a little shavings with the factory stuff, I'm not trying to say the bravo shop is some miracle oil by any means, but I have noticed that my plugs are almost competely clean of shavings after switching to it, it's not cheap but I do think it's better and the proof for me is In the shavings on my plugs as to wear, My .02

[Greg Guimond]

Add a Whipple, buy a spare upper to have run the boat respectively and trade out the uppers every 30-50 hrs and put a new set of gears in the other while still using the boat, you'll add about 10-15 mph without disturbing your handeling. Buy doing so you'd be time and $$ ahead and you will have a easier boat to maintain in the future. Not to brag, as I'm knocking on wood, I'm running a STOCK Bravo 1 upper with 660 hrs on it that's never been opened up with 600 HP In front of it, yes you can break anything but an XR with a 525 In Front of it in a 22, a pretty light boat, should last a long while. I wouldn't even think of going to a project like the Arny on it, fwiw I believe Ted tried a few different drives heights on his 22/Ilmore and if I recall correctly the -3" lower he could t get on plain and ended up with a -2" and his was a 700 Ilmore with XR upper. I'll add that in the last 3 seasons I've switched over to "The Bravo Shop" brand of lower unit oil, from the factory merc Hi-perf. Stuff, I used to get a little shavings with the factory stuff, I'm not trying to say the bravo shop is some miracle oil by any means, but I have noticed that my plugs are almost competely clean of shavings after switching to it, it's not cheap but I do think it's better and the proof for me is In the shavings on my plugs as to wear, My .02

Lot of wisdom and practical experience in your post and I'd think all of what you suggest can be done for $10k or less?

[Inferno]

Start spending... as I just recieved my new 598 with a 4.5 whipple and were in the range of 1375 hp !!! The Imco SCX is ready and I have a SCX 4 in the box if needed ....... if anyone wants to know I ran 92 next to Phil Lipship at AOTH and then the next day it just was not running right . Took it back to Eddie Young to do somemore tuning and the next week we took out 3 valves and broke a timing chain . I therefore ordered a new block and a larger whipple and should be in the water for testing in Florida soon . I will have more than a day running the boat when I show up at AOTH next year guaranteed !!. AOTH was the first time in the boat and it was a breakin period and Eddie had the timing set rich . Also this year there a new tank, as I had 170 gallon tank that was useless as it was too much weight in the bow. Now with a small rear tank the bow it going to lift a lot faster. Howard Arneson is a close friend,who I raced against for many years and if I wanted one, it would be FREE . I went with the Imco as it was a better fit for what I needed.

[Greg Guimond]

Seen an 18X and heard of a Minx, but not sure it's worth the $$ and effort. Typically the change is made because B1 drives cant take huge HP. Even if you put 700HP in a 22C an XR would probably last 50-100hours...
The props for an Arneson cost as much as a Bravo rebuild.

I would think a Blackhawk would be a better option if you want a surface drive...

http://denver.craigslist.org/boa/5254875840.html

[Greg Guimond]

The ad ............

1996 Donzi Blackhawk FACTORY BUILT ONE OF A KIND !!! SUPER COLLECTABLE RARE ORIGINAL 1996 DONZI BLACKHAWK NEVER MODIFIED, FULLY DOCUMENTED. In 1995 Donzi made a limited edition of 43 Blackhawks. In 1996 a handful of Blackhawk powered 80mph screamers were manufactured but only one (1) was a Factory Custom one of a kind. Today it is in excellent condition with 317 hours.

[Ed Donnelly]

Start spending... as I just recieved my new 598 with a 4.5 whipple and were in the range of 1375 hp !!! The Imco SCX is ready and I have a SCX 4 in the box if needed ....... if anyone wants to know I ran 92 next to Phil Lipship at AOTH and then the next day it just was not running right . Took it back to Eddie Young to do somemore tuning and the next week we took out 3 valves and broke a timing chain . I therefore ordered a new block and a larger whipple and should be in the water for testing in Florida soon . I will have more than a day running the boat when I show up at AOTH next year guaranteed !!. AOTH was the first time in the boat and it was a breakin period and Eddie had the timing set rich . Also this year there a new tank, as I had 170 gallon tank that was useless as it was too much weight in the bow. Now with a small rear tank the bow it going to lift a lot faster. Howard Arneson is a close friend,who I raced against for many years and if I wanted one, it would be FREE . I went with the Imco as it was a better fit for what I needed.
The

If you break down at the Awakening, you always have a ride with Rob and I..Ed

[joseph m. hahnl]

Start spending... as I just recieved my new 598 with a 4.5 whipple and were in the range of 1375 hp !!! The Imco SCX is ready and I have a SCX 4 in the box if needed ....... if anyone wants to know I ran 92 next to Phil Lipship at AOTH and then the next day it just was not running right . Took it back to Eddie Young to do somemore tuning and the next week we took out 3 valves and broke a timing chain . I therefore ordered a new block and a larger whipple and should be in the water for testing in Florida soon . I will have more than a day running the boat when I show up at AOTH next year guaranteed !!. AOTH was the first time in the boat and it was a breakin period and Eddie had the timing set rich . Also this year there a new tank, as I had 170 gallon tank that was useless as it was too much weight in the bow. Now with a small rear tank the bow it going to lift a lot faster. Howard Arneson is a close friend,who I raced against for many years and if I wanted one, it would be FREE . I went with the Imco as it was a better fit for what I needed.
Sounds like recipe for disaster :biggrin.: Good luck with the longevity, we'll keep a rope ready for yah:kingme:

[Pismo]

140mph in a 22...Wow, thinking big...

[mattyboy]

this pretty much sums the arney 22 project up in a sentence this is right from Kenny


I took a 55mph boat and made it a 45 mph boat