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View Full Version : 1968 Barrelback 18 in Belgium : V-drive help



Cracker box
09-30-2015, 04:17 AM
This summer my brother and i went to France to pick up this interesting Donzi hull n° 208. Original color was light blue deck/side/bottom & white stripes.
Again (1st time was with my last year's St Tropez find) I was astonished to find a hull that must have been imported in europe in very very few quantities. This one was imported new in 1968.
No engine inside but a Mercruiser 255 (Ford) bellhousing mated to a Velvet drive and Crusader V drive.
Sadly, the boat was highly modified through the years ending in a ski boat setting with horrible windscreen, custom-made dashboard, ... We saved it not long before it was trashed I think.

My question is :
The original engine was a reverse rotating one (Mercruiser 255R clockwise turning) and the Velvet drive is a AS1-71C (with no "R" so clockwise turning too).
During the resto process, we are looking forward to install a 5,7l GM instead.
GM V8s are anticlockwise turning engines (left hand engines).

Is it possible to reverse the Velvet drive rotation by turning the oil pump ?
Or should i let the velvet drive turning the same way as the GM engine and replace the propeller by an anti-clockwise turning one ?
Or should I make the engine rotate clockwise ???

Thanks for your help.


83043
83047830468304583044

HallJ
09-30-2015, 07:12 PM
Use the GM engine. Re align the Velvet drive pump housing , get a new prop and have fun.
Une fois!

Jeff

Cracker box
10-01-2015, 02:11 PM
Thank you HallJ.
So only changing the prop by a left hand. Good.

my tortured mind just don't understand why there are 71C and 71CR velvet drives, one said to be turning conterclockwise and the second clockwise. Why did they made two references if both can rotate in any direction, une fois ?

HallJ
10-01-2015, 05:06 PM
I would say that the customer doesn't want to disassemble the transmission.
If it is in a crate, how would you know the rotation? You would have to open the crate and have look.
It also reduces warranty costs for Borg Warner from the customer spinning the pump backwards and damaging it.

Une fois avec Rien à déclarer.

Jeff

Cracker box
10-04-2015, 02:45 PM
Thanks. And I found that every 1:1 velvet drive can effectively rotate in both directions by turning the pump.

HallJ
10-04-2015, 07:46 PM
What is the V drive ratio?
Maybe you already know this but many of the old Volvo bell housings will bolt right up to that Velvet drive.

Also, some of the Mercruiser TRS bellhousings have oil coolers built into them. That should work too.

I raced against some nice Belgians in the Cowes Torquay Cowes powerboat race. They have a 42 ft Buzzi RIB called "Beretta Due". Good racers.

Jeff

Cracker box
10-07-2015, 03:10 AM
Thanks for the infos. i only knew for the TRS.
I have to re-check V drive ratio. velvet drive is 1:1.

those belgians ?

and what boat do you race ?

HallJ
10-07-2015, 12:00 PM
Yes! That is it.

In 2013 and 2014 I raced With Mike and Christian on board "Dry Martini".

For 2015 I raced on board "Thunderstreak" a 31' Bertram. It is special boat for me, because my friend and fellow (state of)Minnesotan Walt Walters (the designer of your two Donzis) raced this very same boat in the 1963 edition of the Cowes Torquay. As far I know we are the only two Minnesotans to Race the famous classic race and to do it in the very same boat 52 years apart makes it very unique event.

You should come to the 2016 event. You will have a great time.
The photos are from Dave Orminson and Graham Stevens.83086830878308483085

https://www.facebook.com/BritishPowerboatRacingClub/photos/ms.c.eJxdy7ERwEAIA8GOPOgBCfpv7O3AAYTaOcGQoBdK7Wziw S8NNaa4YkkE14tZq5FqNe02mmOmXPJOTjni11y5XyQi.bps.a. 10151638187611961.1073741827.257791886960/10151638196581961/?type=3&theater


Jeff

Morgan's Cloud
10-07-2015, 02:18 PM
Jeff, you've done some very cool sh*t ! !
For me , just going out on a pre '71 Bertram 31 of any model is like a trip back in time and history . To have done a recent day race in a 31 like that .. too cool .
You would no doubt recall the 31 Express that Lady Aitken once raced , well I had an uncle who owned the exact model here back in the very early 70's . The only one that ever came here , and we once claimed to have more Bertrams per square mile than anywhere else on earth.

Just out of interest , what was the power and how fast was it .

(Apologies for possible thread de-rail)

bertsboat
10-07-2015, 09:17 PM
Cool Jeff. That shot of you and Walt is special.



Yes! That is it.

In 2013 and 2014 I raced With Mike and Christian on board "Dry Martini".

For 2015 I raced on board "Thunderstreak" a 31' Bertram. It is special boat for me, because my friend and fellow (state of)Minnesotan Walt Walters (the designer of your two Donzis) raced this very same boat in the 1963 edition of the Cowes Torquay. As far I know we are the only two Minnesotans to Race the famous classic race and to do it in the very same boat 52 years apart makes it very unique event.

You should come to the 2016 event. You will have a great time.
The photos are from Dave Orminson and Graham Stevens.83086830878308483085

https://www.facebook.com/BritishPowerboatRacingClub/photos/ms.c.eJxdy7ERwEAIA8GOPOgBCfpv7O3AAYTaOcGQoBdK7Wziw S8NNaa4YkkE14tZq5FqNe02mmOmXPJOTjni11y5XyQi.bps.a. 10151638187611961.1073741827.257791886960/10151638196581961/?type=3&theater


Jeff

HallJ
10-07-2015, 09:32 PM
Jeff, you've done some very cool sh*t ! !
For me , just going out on a pre '71 Bertram 31 of any model is like a trip back in time and history . To have done a recent day race in a 31 like that .. too cool .
You would no doubt recall the 31 Express that Lady Aitken once raced , well I had an uncle who owned the exact model here back in the very early 70's . The only one that ever came here , and we once claimed to have more Bertrams per square mile than anywhere else on earth.

Just out of interest , what was the power and how fast was it .

(Apologies for possible thread de-rail)

The Bertram has 460s on V drives.
46 MPH is about all it will go.
My friend Ole Fineholt joined us from Norway. He owns the 42ft Chief "Warpath" race boat.
It was an international effort.

Jeff

gcarter
10-08-2015, 09:21 AM
Jeff, I love that picture w/Sonny Levy in it.
I'm sometimes envious of your outings to Britain every year,
but I wonder what my back would feel like the next day!
I doubt if Sonny takes a ride, and he's only about 15 years older than I am.

bertsboat
10-08-2015, 11:51 AM
Same boat Jeff? from a 1964 article


Yes! That is it.

In 2013 and 2014 I raced With Mike and Christian on board "Dry Martini".

For 2015 I raced on board "Thunderstreak" a 31' Bertram. It is special boat for me, because my friend and fellow (state of)Minnesotan Walt Walters (the designer of your two Donzis) raced this very same boat in the 1963 edition of the Cowes Torquay. As far I know we are the only two Minnesotans to Race the famous classic race and to do it in the very same boat 52 years apart makes it very unique event.

You should come to the 2016 event. You will have a great time.
The photos are from Dave Orminson and Graham Stevens.83086830878308483085

https://www.facebook.com/BritishPowerboatRacingClub/photos/ms.c.eJxdy7ERwEAIA8GOPOgBCfpv7O3AAYTaOcGQoBdK7Wziw S8NNaa4YkkE14tZq5FqNe02mmOmXPJOTjni11y5XyQi.bps.a. 10151638187611961.1073741827.257791886960/10151638196581961/?type=3&theater


Jeff

HallJ
10-08-2015, 12:19 PM
Hi Bert. That one is Surfrider of the Gardner brothers. There's footage from AP on the youtubes from '63. I'll dig it up. Thread successfully derailed.
Sorry Belgian friend.

Jeff

Cracker box
10-09-2015, 08:14 AM
:)Successful derail
the 31 in early racing version. I really love it !
Warpath vs Martini, that's a big match too.

Morgan's Cloud
10-09-2015, 01:27 PM
Great pics CB !
Let's see if I can help move things back in the right direction. (Sort of )
What's the latest on that pretty powder blue St Tropez ?

joseph m. hahnl
10-09-2015, 05:14 PM
On some inboards the running gear also has to match the motor rotation. You need to determine that the rudder and strut are symmetrical. There is also a rudder alignment issue that will most likely need addressing. Generally it takes more rudder movement to turn the boat against the prop rotation, so the rudder is not equal in movement side to side. At least that is,how it is on my Tunnel Drive:yes: Also Note that a 71c/ 1017 is only rated for 310HP @ 4200 RPM you'll need a 72c / 1018 if your going to pump up the HP @ that RPM over that.:kingme:

Cracker box
10-12-2015, 05:54 AM
Everything seems quite symetrical.
Strut and rudder are the very standard ones found on every early v-drive Donzis

There is no intention now for going up to 300 hp :cool!: but it is it good to know !

MC thank for asking. I posted the news on the St T post.


Isn't it the early Bertram 31 racer we looked for ?

mattyboy
10-15-2015, 04:19 PM
donzi 18 hull number 208 was not a v drive and not light blue not sure where you are getting those numbers from, look again it may be hull 203

most of the hm v drive motors were standard automobile rotation motors

Cracker box
10-19-2015, 03:01 AM
Yes indeed, it is hull 203, (bad memory).
No engine anymore but we still have a bell housing mated to the velvet drive and it says :
Mercruiser 255R ( so Ford 351 clockwise running as i can find) probably not original ? Mercruiser 255´s seems to begin in 1971...
There are numbers on the Donzi boat plate ("EWL 4769" on the attached pic) that I don't understand. Does it refer to a HM engine ?

velvet drive is "As1-71C" clockwise running
V drive is a Crusader
Propeller is a right hand so it runs clockwise in forward when seen from the back of the boat.

Matty, you seems to have access to the great production list.
Was the #203 hull originaly rigged with hollman moody engine ?
what infos do you have ? I'm really interested.

have you got any informations about my light blue St Tropez which had a factory installed volvo AQ110 mated to a AQ110/200 drive probably pre-1966.
It was imported to england first i think. I noticed that Staffan Berg's St Tropez (also in europe) was also factory gelcoated in light blue.
maybe there was once an order for multiple blue boats for europe ? Can you see something in the records ?

mattyboy
10-19-2015, 05:08 PM
not a lot of info on that card but the engine was a 210 interceptor which would match that engine serial number a ford 289 started late dec of 67 and sold july of 68

on the St T if you have any serial numbers or more info would help a lot of holes in the early records

Cracker box
10-20-2015, 03:25 PM
Cool. That is interesting to know. Thank you.

For the St tropez, I never found any hull number. But I don't really know where to look in particular. I've just re-checked the centerconsole with a purple lamp : nothing there.

mattyboy
10-20-2015, 03:34 PM
any numbers on bell housing, drive light blue the original color?

HallJ
10-20-2015, 05:10 PM
Everything seems quite symetrical.
Strut and rudder are the very standard ones found on every early v-drive Donzis

There is no intention now for going up to 300 hp :cool!: but it is it good to know !

MC thank for asking. I posted the news on the St T post.


Isn't it the early Bertram 31 racer we looked for ?

Oui! That's it.

Jeff

Cracker box
10-21-2015, 03:03 AM
St Tropez :
original color : light blue

engine : 4 cyl. volvo AQ110/200
4968 07 17314 818
(the underlined number is the serial number)

drive : Volvo AQ110/200 available in Usa from 1964 to 1966 as I once read here.
part number : 2977 923
Serial number : PZ NR 203 606

Morgan's Cloud
10-21-2015, 06:26 AM
Cool. That is interesting to know. Thank you.

For the St tropez, I never found any hull number. But I don't really know where to look in particular. I've just re-checked the centerconsole with a purple lamp : nothing there.


Every square inch of interior surface on mine was inspected and worked on (including the entire console underside) and no numbers were found either.

This has always been quite intriguing to me 'cause I know that people are always finding numbers on the early 16s of the same vintage .
Does anyone know if there was a run of 16s in the beginning that did not have any numbers at all ?

mattyboy
10-22-2015, 11:33 AM
That is an early serial number for the out drive nothing in the record about the st t. I have seen early 16 and 18 a with no numbers once they started with all the color options I think they needed to number the tops an bottoms so they didn't put the wrong deck on the wrong hull with the 19 there were no options the st t deck wouldn't fit on a bench seat hull and most of the st t decks were white so in the early days on the 19 you didn't need a number to keep them straight

Matt

HallJ
10-22-2015, 06:09 PM
Everything seems quite symetrical.
Strut and rudder are the very standard ones found on every early v-drive Donzis

There is no intention now for going up to 300 hp :cool!: but it is it good to know !

MC thank for asking. I posted the news on the St T post.


Isn't it the early Bertram 31 racer we looked for ?

Here is the Bertram when it's current owner found it.
http://www.classicoffshore.com/blog/category/news/page/38/

Jeff

jl1962
10-22-2015, 08:11 PM
[INDENT]

Here is the Bertram when it's current owner found it.
http://www.classicoffshore.com/blog/category/news/page/38/

Jeff

WOW
Unrecognizable indeed......

FlatRacer, aka BarrelBack
11-22-2015, 07:36 AM
Steering position is determined by prop rotation. If your steering is on the port side, as I suspect it is, then the the prop should be a LH (counterclockwise) rotation. Consequently, the engine should turn RH (clockwise) when viewed from behind the boat. To look at it another way, the engine should turn clockwise when viewed from the front of the engine (the balancer end, not the flywheel end) just as it does in a car.
In a V-Drive installation the engines are installed backwards, as compared to a car or a stern drive installation, so as to orient the bell housing, transmission, and driveshaft toward the V-Drive up forward.
From a manufacturing standpoint, it is much more cost effective to simply mount the steering on whichever side of the boat counteracts the propeller torque then to source counter rotating engines. This is why you see port side steering on the Donzis with Volvo outdrives (LHR), and starboard side steering on the later Donzis with Mercruiser outdrives (RHR).

Eric

Cracker box
12-14-2015, 02:33 PM
Flatracer,

Our boat :
Port side steering
Right hand prop : turning clockwise when viewed from the back of the boat.
engine is turning clockwise when viewed from the cockpit.
The torque of the engine when accelerating tends to put weight on starboard side.
so the package seems correct.

mattyboy
12-14-2015, 04:45 PM
doing a little more research on the interceptor serial number it is a 4 bbl 289 the format looks like they didn't put the entire number on the tag there are digits missing the L could be for engine rotation

but without the entire number you'll never know


Matt

bertsboat
12-15-2015, 10:41 AM
Cracker Box,
Where did the strut, rudder, chrome scoops and all that hardware come from? The yellow things are hatch covers? The boat you were towing had a rudder mount on the transom. Was it extra? Came from Germany or Belgium?



Everything seems quite symetrical.
Strut and rudder are the very standard ones found on every early v-drive Donzis

There is no intention now for going up to 300 hp :cool!: but it is it good to know !

MC thank for asking. I posted the news on the St T post.


Isn't it the early Bertram 31 racer we looked for ?

Cracker box
12-22-2015, 09:50 AM
Thanks for your researchs Matt.
So the number written on the id plate is only a part of the real number. What strange. Btw we have all what we were looking for.

I realise now that if we put un new anticlockwise running GM 350 in it, the torque of the engine would be applied on the same side as the pilot. Not so great. (Or is it really changing something in the driving ?)

My regular boatshop says that it's no big deal to change the rotation of a GM v8. He said that while he was on the waterski racing circuit, he used to change rotation of the engine of his Schiada at nearly every race, depending on the track style. It is done by changing startermotor and waterpump ?

Any other experience in reversing 350's rotation ?
thanks

bertsboat
12-22-2015, 11:22 AM
Firing order, cam etc...