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Donzi_Dude
09-07-2015, 04:02 PM
lets discuss the pro's and con's.


i know its been done but it may be time to do it again.


:worthy:

how much weight can be saved?

how much faster will the boat be?

how much more or less durable will it be?

how much more will it cost?

what are the possible side effects?

how much of a factor is the cool factor?


constructive input welcomed!

gcarter
09-07-2015, 05:52 PM
Are you building airplanes or motorcycle fairings?
Not much use on a 22 Classic, for instance.
It's very expensive. You need to know what you're doing, as to lay of fibers in respect to part design.
Must use epoxy. It probably needs to be a two stage epoxy and autoclave the finished part.

gcarter
09-07-2015, 05:58 PM
I've read a 35' race boat can be built that totals 3,500# for hull and deck.
What that means is it will have to be ballasted after rigging.
Why not Kevlar, probably much stronger and w/higher impact resistance.
Much harder to work with (cut) though.
All this cost a LOT of money.

Donzi_Dude
09-07-2015, 08:31 PM
thanks for the input Mr. Carter.

why would i need to autoclave a boat?

OFFSHORE GINGER
09-08-2015, 10:46 AM
thanks for the input Mr. Carter.

why would i need to autoclave a boat? You would not need to Autoclave considering the price alone will break the bank and what are you building / making . :confused:

gcarter
09-08-2015, 05:03 PM
thanks for the input Mr. Carter.

why would i need to autoclave a boat?

A two stage epoxy (which is the strongest type available) requires heating to finalize curing the epoxy.
Americas Cup, and other extreme types of sail race boats put the entire hull into an oven (autoclave)
for the final epoxy curing.
But carbon fiber is very brittle, which makes it better for aircraft and cars.

OFFSHORE GINGER
09-08-2015, 06:35 PM
A two stage epoxy (which is the strongest type available) requires heating to finalize curing the epoxy.


George not to be rude but the only reason a oven would be needed is for post cure only and to tell you the truth I know of more then one high end Boat Co in my area that does not bake there hulls / deck due to cost alone ( oven & operation ) and not to mention that there are Epoxies out there that are Room Temp / High Impact / Laminating Systems that require no oven that can be used at room temperature applications with great results .

Donzi_Dude
09-08-2015, 07:09 PM
thanks guys! im going to skip the autoclave

it will be an offshore race boat. im not currently at liberty to discuss the particular model as that is not 100% finalized.

it will be an all carbon/composite build.

is 20% weight reduction a realistic goal?

OFFSHORE GINGER
09-09-2015, 11:12 AM
thanks guys! im going to skip the autoclave

it will be an offshore race boat. im not currently at liberty to discuss the particular model as that is not 100% finalized.

it will be an all carbon/composite build.

is 20% weight reduction a realistic goal? Personally past experience working at a few High Performance Boat Co's for many years tells me that it is always the customers choice on just how light of a layup he or she wants and to tell you the truth a total build using all Carbon Fiber in your lay up can and will be very costly or should I say why not mix and match ( fabric ) going with carbon Fiber , Kevlar , S & or E glass which will give you superior strength plus lower the weight ( & cost ) if Bagged which actually should give you a realistic weight reduction of 20 % or more in my opinion .

gcarter
09-09-2015, 11:54 AM
George not to be rude but the only reason a oven would be needed is for post cure only and to tell you the truth I know of more then one high end Boat Co in my area that does not bake there hulls / deck due to cost alone ( oven & operation ) and not to mention that there are Epoxies out there that are Room Temp / High Impact / Laminating Systems that require no oven that can be used at room temperature applications with great results .


"It probably needs to be a two stage epoxy and autoclave the finished part."

Artie, I thought I made it clear in this statement from above (but maybe I didn't) that there is more than one type of epoxy that can be used w/carbon.

gcarter
09-09-2015, 12:00 PM
is 20% weight reduction a realistic goal?

The 3500# for a 35' boat, I've been told is a good number for light weight composite construction.
What does that mean?
My 22Classic Donzi hull and deck weigh, I suspect, 1800# or probably more.
But there's a lot more to this, a 3500# 35' boat has to float at a design water line which means
considerable considerable balast will have to be added.

Donzi_Dude
09-09-2015, 07:59 PM
tell you the truth a total build using all Carbon Fiber in your lay up can and will be very costly or should I say why not mix and match ( fabric ) going with carbon Fiber , Kevlar , S & or E glass which will give you superior strength plus lower the weight ( & cost ) if Bagged which actually should give you a realistic weight reduction of 20 % or more in my opinion .


thanks for the sound advice. that was the original plan and the more we looked at it, the more it became compelling to build the entire boat from carbon fiber.

OFFSHORE GINGER
09-09-2015, 08:46 PM
thanks for the sound advice. that was the original plan and the more we looked at it, the more it became compelling to build the entire boat from carbon fiber. I may be wrong but past experience working at Skater tells me that a total build using Carbon Fiber just might not be the best choice and what is your reason for an all Carbon Fiber layup and have we talked by phone before about this build.

gcarter
09-10-2015, 07:28 AM
Carbon's main problem is, it's brittle. That's why light weight/high strength boats are usually a combination of carbon/kevlar (which is very tough...think bullet proof vests)/and various glass products as needed.
Remember, the boat will still have to weigh a minimum amount to be stable. Weight will have to be added, you might as well add a little weight into the hull material and have a tougher boat that won't shatter.

Donzi_Dude
09-10-2015, 11:28 AM
I may be wrong but past experience working at Skater tells me that a total build using Carbon Fiber just might not be the best choice and what is your reason for an all Carbon Fiber layup and have we talked by phone before about this build.


great stuff guys. i dont think we have ever spoken but my memory is not what it once was.

:bonk:

the main reason is weight reduction, strength and to build a better mousetrap if possible.
if you have something that tells you it may not be best i would appreciate you input.

this thing about it being brittle im not fully understanding. it is 3 times stronger than steel. how could it possibly be fragile. i understand the boat needs a certain amount of weight. i intend to find the sweet spot so adding is not an issue.

the boat will be a 24 degree deep v design.

OFFSHORE GINGER
09-10-2015, 11:34 AM
"It probably needs to be a two stage epoxy and autoclave the finished part."

George , in all the years I worked at Skater we used a two stage Epoxy made by Shell which took 48 hours to cure with no baking or Autoclave used what so ever and not to mention that there was never any worry about post cure or its concern due to the fact that these boat's ( total Custom , race & pleasure ) are not your typical run of the mill production boat which more or less often took a year to finish complete ( out the door ) and after all was said and done , nice paint job , doing triple digits , winning races / Shootouts or just having fun no one owner really gave a hoot if the part or boat was baked after the fact or the part was pulled and build was underway . DONZI DUDE , just curious vacuum bagged or vacuum bagged Infusion and like I mentioned in a prior post ( if done right ) I can almost bet that you can and will see a greater reduction ( weight ) less then 20 % considering I have seen some pretty light layup's over the years and if by chance you decide to go with infusion that in itself is a whole other ballgame which is Cleaner , less wasted Resin , consistent Resin usage / which means weight , unlimited set up time , that will require a thinner Resin and is a process that requires experience . Just my 2 cents

Donzi_Dude
09-10-2015, 12:24 PM
thats worth a lot more than 2 cents GINGER.

im not really a glass guy. my expertise lies in the engine side of things.

we will likely go conventional bag initially but are looking into options now.

big thanks!

gcarter
09-10-2015, 01:49 PM
great stuff guys. i dont think we have ever spoken but my memory is not what it once was.

:bonk:

the main reason is weight reduction, strength and to build a better mousetrap if possible.
if you have something that tells you it may not be best i would appreciate you input.

this thing about it being brittle im not fully understanding. it is 3 times stronger than steel. how could it possibly be fragile. i understand the boat needs a certain amount of weight. i intend to find the sweet spot so adding is not an issue.

the boat will be a 24 degree deep v design.
I give up.
Do some research.
I'm done.

olredalert
09-10-2015, 06:05 PM
----Fragile and brittle are two distinct things.......Bill S

Donzi_Dude
09-10-2015, 06:56 PM
----Fragile and brittle are two distinct things.......Bill S

it can be.

i guess my point is if its strong enough being brittle would not matter...

carbide is brittle too. that doesnt stop one from using it as a cutting tool.

am i missing something?

Ghost
09-10-2015, 07:34 PM
it can be.

i guess my point is if its strong enough being brittle would not matter...

carbide is brittle too. that doesnt stop one from using it as a cutting tool.

am i missing something?


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk

OFFSHORE GINGER
09-10-2015, 08:51 PM
am i missing something? Actually ( YES ) you are missing something , considering most people think that a boat built totally from Carbon Fiber ( fabric ) will with stand the test of time but little do they know that under vigorous conditions , stress , fatigue etc , it can and will fail considering this is not a solid piece of Carbide or cutting tool . LOL ................interesting way of putting thing's ...Ha Ha Ha ....very funny .

Donzi_Dude
09-10-2015, 09:52 PM
Actually ( YES ) you are missing something , considering most people think that a boat built totally from Carbon Fiber ( fabric ) will with stand the test of time but little do they know that under vigorous conditions , stress , fatigue etc , it can and will fail considering this is not a solid piece of Carbide or cutting tool . LOL ................interesting way of putting thing's ...Ha Ha Ha ....very funny .


last time i chececk a glass layup was not solid carbide either.

so just what will cause this failure. it seems that is the big hang up you guys have. is it the brittle nature of the material? any examples? im not seeing that because carbon has excellent fatigue life far exceeding glass and is about 6 times stronger. is it going to delam without it exceeding its strength of 3 times that of steel?

im asking where is the science behind these claims.

OFFSHORE GINGER
09-11-2015, 10:08 AM
so just what will cause this failure.

im asking where is the science behind these claims. First off past experience is my Science and what causes the Failure ....................once again as mentioned in a previous post Vigorous Offshore conditions , Fatigue , Stress , etc which is something that I have seen fail many times over the years , and not to mention that everyone has given there honest opinion here concerning Carbon Fiber ( pro's or con's ) and with that in mind personally I do not want to get into a debate or pissing match over the subject due to the fact that I really could care less on what material you might or want to use ..................your wallet , build ,boat . I wish you the very best of luck on your future build ...........................OUT

yeller
09-11-2015, 04:11 PM
it can be.

i guess my point is if its strong enough being brittle would not matter...

carbide is brittle too. that doesnt stop one from using it as a cutting tool.

am i missing something?
I know nothing about carbon or kevlar, but an example of something being stonger, but more brittle is a Grade 5 bolt vs a Grade 8 bolt.
The grade 8 is a stonger bolt because its shear strength is greater but, a grade 5 bolt can flex and/or twist more before it fails, than a grade 8.
So, in a situation where the assembled product may see more stress due to flexing, a grade 5 bolt would probably be a more durable choice.

Donzi_Dude
09-11-2015, 05:07 PM
I know nothing about carbon or kevlar, but an example of something being stonger, but more brittle is a Grade 5 bolt vs a Grade 8 bolt.
The grade 8 is a stonger bolt because its shear strength is greater but, a grade 5 bolt can flex and/or twist more before it fails, than a grade 8.
So, in a situation where the assembled product may see more stress due to flexing, a grade 5 bolt would probably be a more durable choice.



when was the last time you used a grade 5 over an 8 when you realized a chance of failure.

Donzi_Dude
09-11-2015, 06:25 PM
First off past experience is my Science and what causes the Failure ....................once again as mentioned in a previous post Vigorous Offshore conditions , Fatigue , Stress , etc which is something that I have seen fail many times over the years , and not to mention that everyone has given there honest opinion here concerning Carbon Fiber ( pro's or con's ) and with that in mind personally I do not want to get into a debate or pissing match over the subject due to the fact that I really could care less on what material you might or want to use ..................your wallet , build ,boat . I wish you the very best of luck on your future build ...........................OUT


sorry if i offended you GINGER or mr. carter.
im really not looking for a pissing match and i do value your input. a civil discussion is generally a good thing.
i respect your opinion and i submit none of the failures are constructed the way we are doing so.

Donzi_Dude
09-11-2015, 08:40 PM
"Test have shown that failure is unlikely to be a problem when cyclic stresses coincide with the fiber orientation. Carbon fiber is superior to E glass in fatigue and static strength as well as stiffness."

hmmmm...

OFFSHORE GINGER
09-12-2015, 08:55 AM
"Test have shown that failure is unlikely to be a problem when cyclic stresses coincide with the fiber orientation. Carbon fiber is superior to E glass in fatigue and static strength as well as stiffness."

hmmmm... Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm now did that make you feel better ? Well .............once again your Boat your build and to tell you the truth go for it because it seems like you have a point to prove or an ax to grind considering I have spent a better part of my life ( 40+ years ) in this business working on High Performance Boats employed at a Boat Co that was one if not the first ( Pioneer ) in the industry to use Epoxy & Bag in there build along with using a host of other fabrics from Kevlar , Carbon Fiber , S & E Glass building total Custom one off Boats and to be totally honest with you unless you really have done this type of work before and have hands on actual experience you will be in a shaded area when you start your build and not to mention that everybody who gets on the internet and does some research concerning this subject is suddenly or automatically an expert who has done it all . Well ...........to make a long story short do you have a Plug in the making / Mold or are you going to splash another boat , and might I mention that building a 24 deep v using Carbon fiber actually will cost more then it is worth considering you could build for less on the first boat making changes in the fabric line up as you go if you decide to build another but non the less you seem to be dead set on Carbon Fiber which is your call . :lifeprese:

Donzi_Dude
09-12-2015, 09:55 AM
much respect GINGER!

anything your willing to share i am will to listen.

im not claiming to have anywhere near your level of knowledge in building boats or skill so again not looking for a pissing match. i under stand your concern as i stated i was not a glass guy. im the engine guy. im willing to learn. we do have quite a bit of skill and experience in our camp.

im just looking to build the best boat we can and try and make it work. if pitfalls can be avoided along the way with help from members here im grateful and will continue to be so.

maybe im wrong but i look back at this thread and see you shouldnt do it because:its cost too much, there is little benefit to making the boat lighter, its not a suitable material.

you all' may be right. we are getting ready to find out.

OFFSHORE GINGER
09-12-2015, 11:52 AM
Cool .......................what molds / boat and if you already have a target date for the build why not share a few pics ? :cool!:

gcarter
09-12-2015, 12:06 PM
Contact Mystic Power Boats http://mysticpowerboats.com/ in DeLand, FL.
They build custom and one offs. I've driven by their shop.
They built Nigel Hooks "Lucas Oil" race boats. Some of them are carbon/kevlar,
and some ore all carbon. Go figure.
They're all deep Vee monohull boats. And they win.
I'm really done now. Go talk to someone who is really good at what they do.
The web site is just above.

You have absolutely no idea what you're undertaking, or how to do it.
Now stop this nonsense.

Donzi_Dude
09-12-2015, 12:36 PM
Contact Mystic Power Boats http://mysticpowerboats.com/ in DeLand, FL.
They build custom and one offs. I've driven by their shop.
They built Nigel Hooks "Lucas Oil" race boats. Some of them are carbon/kevlar,
and some ore all carbon. Go figure.
They're all deep Vee monohull boats. And they win.
I'm really done now. Go talk to someone who is really good at what they do.
The web site is just above.





really? all i every see them build is cats, not saying they have not built a V or two.





You have absolutely no idea what you're undertaking, or how to do it.
Now stop this nonsense.


lol!

gcarter
09-12-2015, 02:38 PM
really? all i every see them build is cats, not saying they have not built a V or two.

The first Hook-Lucas Oil prototype race boats, and the first series of "production" boats were built by Mystic, maybe 10 years ago.
http://www.nigelhook.com/raceboat.htm
Here is what they looked like and still do although they are now built by several other builders.
PLEASE notice they are Deep-VEE MONOHULL BOATS. These are the boats I mentioned.

OFFSHORE GINGER
09-12-2015, 05:30 PM
Donzi Dude , might I suggest giving Peter Hledin , Owner / founder a call at Douglas Marine / Skater @ 616- 8574308 which I am sure would be more then happy to answer any or all of your questions considering in the past we built many Boats for Fountain , Cig , Etc , which all pretty much ended up crossing the finish line with a checkered Flag and did I forget to mention the Skater 402 Race / Pleasure Deep V Hull http://skaterpowerboats.co/site/portfolio_single_right_skater_46.html but non the less give him a call if you care too .

woobs
09-12-2015, 09:25 PM
I have been following this thread and have had a couple of thoughts and observations re-occur almost every time I revisit it...

1) The original questions are "entry level" at best but, "expert" detailed answers are required.

2) If I was building a one-off race boat where cost was not an insurmountable issue, ...and I was not experienced at hull manufacturing and/or material science... Why would I not contract an expert company that already does this if one exists (they do)? In the end you would get a better hull that is higher quality and cheaper in the long run. (maybe cheaper in the short run too)

3) If my expertise was geared towards motors/rigging... why wouldn't I concentrate on this and let others concentrate on their area of expertise?

4) As a former racer/team owner I always wanted the best I could afford and better than the other guys. But, to finish first, you first must finish! So, reliability is a huge factor. As Owner/GM/Crew Chief/Project Manager, whatever...It is important to have knowledge of all the systems you are employing in your build (not be an expert yourself). The best comes from a manager that can draw the best from each of his experts and can co-ordinate and unify their contributions. You need an open mind and sometimes a "gut" feeling for this. Don Aronow had Walt Walters, Jim Wynn, Alan Brown and a host of others as he was an exceptional manager and stuck to what he knew best... apparently he used to win a lot.

Just my thoughts.....

Donzi_Dude
09-13-2015, 02:20 AM
I have been following this thread and have had a couple of thoughts and observations re-occur almost every time I revisit it...

1) The original questions are "entry level" at best but, "expert" detailed answers are required.

2) If I was building a one-off race boat where cost was not an insurmountable issue, ...and I was not experienced at hull manufacturing and/or material science... Why would I not contract an expert company that already does this if one exists (they do)? In the end you would get a better hull that is higher quality and cheaper in the long run. (maybe cheaper in the short run too)

3) If my expertise was geared towards motors/rigging... why wouldn't I concentrate on this and let others concentrate on their area of expertise?

4) As a former racer/team owner I always wanted the best I could afford and better than the other guys. But, to finish first, you first must finish! So, reliability is a huge factor. As Owner/GM/Crew Chief/Project Manager, whatever...It is important to have knowledge of all the systems you are employing in your build (not be an expert yourself). The best comes from a manager that can draw the best from each of his experts and can co-ordinate and unify their contributions. You need an open mind and sometimes a "gut" feeling for this. Don Aronow had Walt Walters, Jim Wynn, Alan Brown and a host of others as he was an exceptional manager and stuck to what he knew best... apparently he used to win a lot.

Just my thoughts.....


thanks for your thoughts Sean.

ill add a couple things.

1) just because a question is asked does not mean the answer is not already known. entry level is a place to start.

2) one cannot make the assumption who has or has not been contacted just because a question is asked.

3) just because one is an expert in certain areas why would that prevent you from asking questions in other areas. are these areas "off limits" to non experts.

4) do not make the assumption that one is not coordinating and drawing from the others around them just because a question is asked. i agree that it is mandatory "to have knowledge of all the systems you are employing in your build". one does this by research and asking questions as well as not being distracted by naysayers.

gcarter
09-13-2015, 07:49 AM
People who really want answers are receptive to instruction.
If you go back and read your responses, you need to admit to yourself that you weren't.

woobs
09-13-2015, 01:52 PM
....
1) just because a question is asked does not mean the answer is not already known. entry level is a place to start. If you "know" the answer, is it a "trust" issue? Do you really know?

2) one cannot make the assumption who has or has not been contacted just because a question is asked. If you have contacted an experienced company/individual for the manufacturing of the hull... again, would this be a "trust" issue? Previous work is a good indicator of future performance.

3) just because one is an expert in certain areas why would that prevent you from asking questions in other areas. are these areas "off limits" to non experts. Nothing is "off limits" to non experts and learning every day is a great way to go through life... But, you don't seem to be considering answers contrary to your own theory.

4) do not make the assumption that one is not coordinating and drawing from the others around them just because a question is asked....Usually, race team members discuss specifics of a project and query from within. They do this with all the facts at hand and in context. Solutions/plans are found based upon the expertise in the team and the dynamics of bringing those solutions into reality. This thread is stated in generalities, without true context. It's an open forum without quantifying any information or those that give it (although the guys here are experts in my book). Further, it appears that you are steadfast in your convictions (might be a good thing) and resilient in your path of action despite the opinions given.


I am not making assumptions... just observations. If you have all the answers, the experts and are working in concert together with all the relevant data in context.... what's this thread about? Just asking...

Donzi_Dude
09-13-2015, 05:03 PM
its about discussing a carbon fiber lay up and building the best boat possible. i take you comments to heart.

OFFSHORE GINGER
09-13-2015, 06:02 PM
Cool .......................what molds / boat and if you already have a target date for the build why not share a few pics ? :cool!: Once again !