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Greg Guimond
09-03-2015, 09:44 AM
.
To draw people away from the AOTH thread I've created my own controversial timeline of the first 16's ever built. Take yourself back 50 years, before I was born, and read the Greg Guimond 16 timeline below.

:popcorn:


Keep in mind how many Donzi race boats were in action in late 1964 that would have required substantial factory focus. Example - In November there was major preparation underway for the big Miami-to-Key West Offshore Race. This race was critical as it was the last race in the 1964 World Powerboat Championship 6 race series (aka "The Sam Griffith Trophy") which Jim Wynne won that year with Dick Bertram taking second.
The M-to-KW race was run on November 6, 1964 and had Wynne in a Donzi 28 (2nd), Jim Breuil (3rd) running his own 36' Breuil diesel, Walt Walters in a second Donzi 28 (4th), Allan Brown (8th) in the first Donzi 19 Hornet ever built named "Donzi Daddy", and Jake Trotter placing 16th in yet a 3rd Donzi 28 .

What Allan Brown did indicate to me with 100% certainty was that the hull he brought to the Jax Boat Show the next week was the first Ski Sporter EVER with a Volvo 200. This was confused by many folks for 15 years.

The timeline for 1964 Ski Sporter production could/would have looked like this ...........

July 1, 1964 - After Don Aronow sells Formula to Dick Genth's Thunderbird Boats on May 5, 1964, he starts Donzi and literally builds the new factory right across the street from Formula. Drawings for the Donzi Ski Sporter 16 (underway) are printed by legendary designer and living marine icon Walt Walters who is now 84. The design effort is fast-tracked by the Walters/Aronow 1963 Formula Jr. hull and the 1962 race winning Wynn Mill II driven by Jim Wynne complete with 2 blade prop.

To be specific, the Donzi 16 is linked only to the WYN-MILL II.

September 1964 - Production starts on the 16 with Hull #1 built. Powerplant and drive was from Eaton Manufacturing, Dearborn Marine Engine Division. It was labeled the "Interceptor" and was a 260ci (Ford) V8 probably making 165hp? Boat was Wonder White with a Grumble Green deck stripe. Walt Walters could verify what power the first one got and if he had an apprentice helping with the design. Call him up. This hull seems to be the one piloted by Allan Brown who is running alongside Jim Wynne in the well known flat water photograph. It has no waterline boot stripe in the photo and notice that the decals show America in front of Great Britain.

September 1964 - "Popular Boating"' magazine writes that Hull #2 (or #3) is demonstrated at longtime establishment Santana Marine in Coconut Grove Florida running on Dinner Key. The iconic "grab rail" is offered as a $48 option on the 1964s. No pictures survive of it at Santana Marine but this hull could be the one a bearded Jim Wynne is piloting alongside Brownie in the same photo referenced above. The hull is Volvo powered and rigged with an AQ drive after Wynne and Volvo President Harald Wiklund introduced the first drive to America in 1959. Which model is on that Santana demo boat, 100 or 200? It does not have a grab rail, and carries the Swedish decal (recognizing Volvo) first followed by America. These three items are identical to the press boat photo. It is white with a red deck stripe and red waterline boot stripe. Very possible that the "press boat" was also the "demo boat" that PB's Dick Borden wrote about in there June 1965 issue.

October 1964 - Hull #3 (or 2) is built. Power was Volvo/AQ100. It is reviewed in the July 21, 1965 issue of the Swedish performance magazine "Teknikens varld." Many decades later Thomas Ronnberg in Sweden bought and fully restored this 16 and ran it for years. Boat is white with a red deck stripe, no waterline boot stripe and has the 3 gauge dash instrument panel. The 3 gauge panel though seems to be slightly different. Thomas believed it was 1964 hull #2 or #3. Lars on this board would/could contact Ronnberg in Sweden.

November 15, 1964 - Living legend Allan Brown (now 81) as Sales Manager for the new Donzi Marine, brings Hull #4 (or 3) to the Jax boat show on 11/13/64 rigged with a Volvo/AQ200, the first 200 imported into the US market, but not the first Ski Sporter hull built as has been assumed by master blasters for decades. Boat is white with a blue deck stripe according to AB. No information on if it had a boot stripe or not. Mr. K's team at Mercury (Bill Steele and Joe Swift) tries to bribe Brownie with money and ho's for a closer look at the brand new sandcast Aquamatic 200 technology at Lake X. Brown tells them to piss off.

December 10, 1964 - Fred Darwick (now 75) buys and takes delivery of hull #6 (or 5) with a 4 cyl Volvo power plant making 110hp and an AQ100 drive. The 110 engine itself had been proven thoroughly, winning 4 ocean races the prior year in a Formula 233. The cost is $3,500 with trailer while printed ads show a price of $3,995 for 16s to the public. Is the lower cost because of the leftover AQ100 drive instead of a newer 200 or is it because Darwick is both a friend and a supplier to Don Aronow? The boat is white with a green stripe and "Hot Volvo" is handwritten on the original Bill of Sale. The boat has just one option, an Aquameter Speedo and carries the American sticker first followed by Sweden below the scripted Donzi Marine. Wearing #11 on the deck and hulls sides, Fred and Judy go out and win the January 2, 1965 "Orange Bowl Regatta 9 Hour" Endurance Race "Class A" in this Ski Sporter. Archive that invoice at Mystic Seaport and then find Bob Cox and Ed Joyce (who ironically raced a Formula 233 in other earlier races) to see if they bought Ski Sporter hull #5. On April 8. 1965 two Donzi 19 Hornets would compete in the Miami-Nassau Ocean Race. One 19 was a converted I/O and ran dual Johnson 90hp motors and was piloted by the team of Bob Cox and Ed Joyce.

January 15, 1965 - Two (not one) Ski Sporters are shown on the floor at the 55th Annual National Motor Boat Show at the old Coliseum on the UWS of NYC. Also in the booth that day are two 19 foot Donzi's. This is the exact same day that LBJ calls MLK to discuss the Voting Rights Act. The boat show runs from January 15th to January 24th and has 290 boats on the floor. These two 16 hulls (possibly hull #7 and #8) were probably built in December 1964 as they would have left Miami a full week earlier to allow for a snow storm cushion. No pictures exist of the booth with those boats but some very rough and unsubstantiated research indicated that the Ski Sporters were red and blue. There is, however, no magazine written account of there colors, power plants, deck stripes or boot stripes. Also unclear who from Donzi manned the booth at this show. There was also some comment that both these Ski Sporters were sold at the NYC show to a dealer in New Orleans.
.

Also ........ note that Frank Civitano remembers his Father (who was friends with Don A) buying a Ski Sporter 16 from Don in 1964. Frank was 14 and recalls it being green with a red stripe and the 4th or 5th 16 made. Find him and ask him to confirm the color combo (how could you forget green?) and did the boat have Volvo or Eaton in the back? This green Ski Sporter could possibly be the same green hull that Fred Darwick mentioned Don had put aside for his young son Michael. The hull color green would have been suspect though as there is no records of 1964 hulls being painted a solid color. I would assume that if Darwick and Civitano's recollections are correct the "bright green" was actually Grumble Green which would have been used on later 16s in 1965.

Also, Also ........... at the time I believe that Mr. Darwick was living in Coconut Grove. Given Santana Marine was also in Coconut Grove, Fred might remember going over to see the Ski Sporter demo that was done there on Dinner Key.

Third Also ............ do not forget that a very early 16 was given to Bill Muncey as a promo present by Don Aronow. This boat was last sold back in 2009 after a complete restoration. Edward Muncey, son of famed racer and Unlimited Hydroplane Champion Bill Muncey (who died in 1981) would know what the original history of this claimed 1964 hull was. Find him and ask.

There you have it for the archives lol

Morgan's Cloud
09-03-2015, 11:58 AM
For some reason I'm having a huge deja vu experience.

Hooligan1
09-13-2015, 08:27 AM
I worked with Will Muncey (also a son of Bill) in Seattle on his race boat teams when he ran limited and unlimited boats ("Miss Kawagucchi") and he could be another source to question.

woobs
09-13-2015, 10:09 AM
IIRC, Fred Darwick told me that after taking delivery of the white/green "hot Volvo" he helped a friend purchase another one of the "hot Volvo's" in white/blue that was available (only 6 total, of this type were available). After winning the December 1964 race he sold the white/green boat. At a later date Fred bought the white/blue boat back from his friend... and finally sold it years later to someone in south Florida. Apparently, Fred still knows the whereabouts (and owner) of this boat albeit, it is no longer rigged with it's stock motor/drive.


...winter's coming.

woobs
09-19-2015, 09:50 AM
Enjoy your ride! Overcast and a potential for rain here this weekend.

Next weekend looks great for a beautiful fall colours run in the Kawarthas! And we will be going boating until after (Canadian) Thanksgiving in mid October. I might have pushed it further down the calendar but, I'm looking to do some maintenance on the woody.
83008

Greg Guimond
10-18-2015, 11:46 PM
IIRC, Fred Darwick told me that after taking delivery of the white/green "hot Volvo" he helped a friend purchase another one of the "hot Volvo's" in white/blue that was available (only 6 total, of this type were available). After winning the December 1964 race he sold the white/green boat. At a later date Fred bought the white/blue boat back from his friend... and finally sold it years later to someone in south Florida.

Pretty close woobs. Fred and Judy ran there 1964 Ski Sporter in the 9 hour segment of the Orange Bowl Regatta. The race actually occurred on January 2, 1965 and they won there class. The boat was #11.
A year later, he then ran the exact same boat (with a different race number 17) in the January 1966 Orange Bowl. I do not know where he placed in the '66 race with the Ski Sporter.

An excerpt on the 1966 race is below .........

This race was held as part of the "Orange Bowl Regatta" which was associated with the "Orange Bowl" football game. It was always run during the holidays usually between Christmas and New Years. This particular year it was cold for south Florida with a brisk Northwest wind. This made for pretty rough conditions on the Marine Stadium's long marathon course. About half or a little more of the course was outside the stadium in Biscayne Bay. After the injuries began to pile up and then the fatal accident the race was red flagged and stopped. The race was re-run the following day minus the Mercury Factory boats and a number of others too damaged to continue. .

woobs
10-19-2015, 08:43 AM
Interesting.
Greg, How do we know Fred's white/green boat was hull #6 (5)?

Greg Guimond
10-22-2015, 10:26 PM
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And here are the vintage photos of the Darwick Ski Sporter 16 that was bought from directly from Don Aronow in late 1964. The same hull was raced first by Fred and his wife Judy in the January 2, 1965 race, and then again in the January 1966 race. Unfortunately, the 1966 race was black flagged after a death on the course attributed to unusually rough conditions.
.

bertsboat
10-23-2015, 09:37 AM
If Donzi built a [plant literally across the street from Formula then the first Donzi plant wouldnt be on 188 street, correct? Formula was on Biscayne and 144 st.


.
To draw people away from the AOTH thread I've created my own controversial timeline of the first 16's ever built. Take yourself back 50 years, before I was born, and read the Greg Guimond 16 timeline below.

:popcorn:


Keep in mind how many Donzi race boats were in action in late 1964 that would have required substantial factory focus. Example - In November there was major preparation underway for the big Miami-to-Key West Offshore Race. This race was critical as it was the last race in the 1964 World Powerboat Championship 6 race series (aka "The Sam Griffith Trophy") which Jim Wynne won that year with Dick Bertram taking second.
The M-to-KW race was run on November 6, 1964 and had Wynne in a Donzi 28 (2nd), Jim Breuil (3rd) running his own 36' Breuil diesel, Walt Walters in a second Donzi 28 (4th), Allan Brown (8th) in the first Donzi 19 Hornet ever built named "Donzi Daddy", and Jake Trotter placing 16th in yet a 3rd Donzi 28 .

What Allan Brown did indicate to me with 100% certainty was that the hull he brought to the Jax Boat Show the next week was the first Ski Sporter EVER with a Volvo 200. This was confused by many folks for 15 years.

The timeline for 1964 Ski Sporter production could/would have looked like this ...........

July 1, 1964 - After Don Aronow sells Formula to Dick Genth's Thunderbird Boats on May 5, 1964, he starts Donzi and literally builds the new factory right across the street from Formula. Drawings for the Donzi Ski Sporter 16 (underway) are printed by legendary designer and living marine icon Walt Walters who is now 84. The design effort is fast-tracked by the Walters/Aronow 1963 Formula Jr. hull and the 1962 race winning Wynn Mill II driven by Jim Wynne complete with 2 blade prop.

To be specific, the Donzi 16 is linked only to the WYN-MILL II.

September 1964 - Production starts on the 16 with Hull #1 built. Powerplant and drive was from Eaton Manufacturing, Dearborn Marine Engine Division. It was labeled the "Interceptor" and was a 260ci (Ford) V8 probably making 165hp? Boat was Wonder White with a Grumble Green deck stripe. Walt Walters could verify what power the first one got and if he had an apprentice helping with the design. Call him up. This hull seems to be the one piloted by Allan Brown who is running alongside Jim Wynne in the well known flat water photograph. It has no waterline boot stripe in the photo and notice that the decals show America in front of Great Britain.

September 1964 - "Popular Boating"' magazine writes that Hull #2 (or #3) is demonstrated at longtime establishment Santana Marine in Coconut Grove Florida running on Dinner Key. The iconic "grab rail" is offered as a $48 option on the 1964s. No pictures survive of it at Santana Marine but this hull could be the one a bearded Jim Wynne is piloting alongside Brownie in the same photo referenced above. The hull is Volvo powered and rigged with an AQ drive after Wynne and Volvo President Harald Wiklund introduced the first drive to America in 1959. Which model is on that Santana demo boat, 100 or 200? It does not have a grab rail, and carries the Swedish decal (recognizing Volvo) first followed by America. These three items are identical to the press boat photo. It is white with a red deck stripe and red waterline boot stripe. Very possible that the "press boat" was also the "demo boat" that PB's Dick Borden wrote about in there June 1965 issue.

October 1964 - Hull #3 (or 2) is built. Power was Volvo/AQ100. It is reviewed in the July 21, 1965 issue of the Swedish performance magazine "Teknikens varld." Many decades later Thomas Ronnberg in Sweden bought and fully restored this 16 and ran it for years. Boat is white with a red deck stripe, no waterline boot stripe and has the 3 gauge dash instrument panel. The 3 gauge panel though seems to be slightly different. Thomas believed it was 1964 hull #2 or #3. Lars on this board would/could contact Ronnberg in Sweden.

November 15, 1964 - Living legend Allan Brown (now 81) as Sales Manager for the new Donzi Marine, brings Hull #4 (or 3) to the Jax boat show on 11/13/64 rigged with a Volvo/AQ200, the first 200 imported into the US market, but not the first Ski Sporter hull built as has been assumed by master blasters for decades. Boat is white with a blue deck stripe according to AB. No information on if it had a boot stripe or not. Mr. K's team at Mercury (Bill Steele and Joe Swift) tries to bribe Brownie with money and ho's for a closer look at the brand new sandcast Aquamatic 200 technology at Lake X. Brown tells them to piss off.

December 10, 1964 - Fred Darwick (now 75) buys and takes delivery of hull #6 (or 5) with a 4 cyl Volvo power plant making 110hp and an AQ100 drive. The 110 engine itself had been proven thoroughly, winning 4 ocean races the prior year in a Formula 233. The cost is $3,500 with trailer while printed ads show a price of $3,995 for 16s to the public. Is the lower cost because of the leftover AQ100 drive instead of a newer 200 or is it because Darwick is both a friend and a supplier to Don Aronow? The boat is white with a green stripe and "Hot Volvo" is handwritten on the original Bill of Sale. The boat has just one option, an Aquameter Speedo and carries the American sticker first followed by Sweden below the scripted Donzi Marine. Wearing #11 on the deck and hulls sides, Fred and Judy go out and win the January 2, 1965 "Orange Bowl Regatta 9 Hour" Endurance Race "Class A" in this Ski Sporter. Archive that invoice at Mystic Seaport and then find Bob Cox and Ed Joyce (who ironically raced a Formula 233 in other earlier races) to see if they bought Ski Sporter hull #5. On April 8. 1965 two Donzi 19 Hornets would compete in the Miami-Nassau Ocean Race. One 19 was a converted I/O and ran dual Johnson 90hp motors and was piloted by the team of Bob Cox and Ed Joyce.

January 15, 1965 - Two (not one) Ski Sporters are shown on the floor at the 55th Annual National Motor Boat Show at the old Coliseum on the UWS of NYC. Also in the booth that day are two 19 foot Donzi's. This is the exact same day that LBJ calls MLK to discuss the Voting Rights Act. The boat show runs from January 15th to January 24th and has 290 boats on the floor. These two 16 hulls (possibly hull #7 and #8) were probably built in December 1964 as they would have left Miami a full week earlier to allow for a snow storm cushion. No pictures exist of the booth with those boats but some very rough and unsubstantiated research indicated that the Ski Sporters were red and blue. There is, however, no magazine written account of there colors, power plants, deck stripes or boot stripes. Also unclear who from Donzi manned the booth at this show. There was also some comment that both these Ski Sporters were sold at the NYC show to a dealer in New Orleans.
.

Also ........ note that Frank Civitano remembers his Father (who was friends with Don A) buying a Ski Sporter 16 from Don in 1964. Frank was 14 and recalls it being green with a red stripe and the 4th or 5th 16 made. Find him and ask him to confirm the color combo (how could you forget green?) and did the boat have Volvo or Eaton in the back? This green Ski Sporter could possibly be the same green hull that Fred Darwick mentioned Don had put aside for his young son Michael. The hull color green would have been suspect though as there is no records of 1964 hulls being painted a solid color. I would assume that if Darwick and Civitano's recollections are correct the "bright green" was actually Grumble Green which would have been used on later 16s in 1965.

Also, Also ........... at the time I believe that Mr. Darwick was living in Coconut Grove. Given Santana Marine was also in Coconut Grove, Fred might remember going over to see the Ski Sporter demo that was done there on Dinner Key.

Third Also ............ do not forget that a very early 16 was given to Bill Muncey as a promo present by Don Aronow. This boat was last sold back in 2009 after a complete restoration. Edward Muncey, son of famed racer and Unlimited Hydroplane Champion Bill Muncey (who died in 1981) would know what the original history of this claimed 1964 hull was. Find him and ask.

There you have it for the archives lol

mattyboy
11-07-2015, 10:45 AM
interesting read just some thoughts

I have seen posts here from Brownie that the jax show boat was the first production donzi ever

from first donzi ever built thread post 6 and 18


I showed the first Donzi in the Jacksonville, Fl. show in Nov. '64. White, blue stripe, 4 cyl. Volvo, sandcast 200 drive (first one everin this country). Average redneck comment: "What the hayellll is that?


BROWNIE


The Jax showboat was a 16'. It was THE FIRST production Donzi. Buizilla, I'm 69. Kiekhaefer's troops tried to bribe me to stop at the lake (X) on the way home for a gander at the new Volvo 200 drive. No dice. We built a s**tload of of 16's in '65.


BROWNIE

some other thoughts the plan from Jim Wynn was to outfit the 16 with his volvo i/o all the early pics and brochures only show and mention volvo power. I think the longshoremen's strike of 65 move more 16s to eaton ford power

the one pic you posted of the ad is from the original press photo brochure layout by Gross Greenman advertising it was the BW shots of the 16 top bottom and the one on the trailer being pulled by a 64 el camino . the one on the yacht is one i have never seen ,neat

the published dates I have found for the jax show in 64 were in April is that show like the AC show were they have a land show early in the year and then an in water show later in the year or was it a show not part of the Nat'l boat show schedule?

i think this is close and Brownie was sure right they built a ****load of 16s in 65

Greg Guimond
11-08-2015, 08:25 PM
interesting read just some thoughts

I have seen posts here from Brownie that the jax show boat was the first production donzi ever

from first donzi ever built thread post 6 and 18


I showed the first Donzi in the Jacksonville, Fl. show in Nov. '64. White, blue stripe, 4 cyl. Volvo, sandcast 200 drive (first one everin this country). Average redneck comment: "What the hayellll is that?

BROWNIE
The Jax showboat was a 16'. It was THE FIRST production Donzi. Buizilla, I'm 69. Kiekhaefer's troops tried to bribe me to stop at the lake (X) on the way home for a gander at the new Volvo 200 drive. No dice. We built a s**tload of of 16's in '65.

BROWNIE

some other thoughts the plan from Jim Wynn was to outfit the 16 with his volvo i/o all the early pics and brochures only show and mention volvo power. I think the longshoremen's strike of 65 move more 16s to eaton ford power

the one pic you posted of the ad is from the original press photo brochure layout by Gross Greenman advertising it was the BW shots of the 16 top bottom and the one on the trailer being pulled by a 64 el camino . the one on the yacht is one i have never seen ,neat

the published dates I have found for the jax show in 64 were in April is that show like the AC show were they have a land show early in the year and then an in water show later in the year or was it a show not part of the Nat'l boat show schedule?

i think this is close and Brownie was sure right they built a ****load of 16s in 65








Matty, you are wrong, the Jacksonville boat show took place on November 13, 14, and 15 of 1964. The 158 mile "Miami to Key West" race was the weekend prior and Brown recalled still being a little banged up from it at the Jax show.

I asked 81 year old Alan Brown directly about the 16 Ski Sporter that he was in the booth with those three days, and he told me it was probably the 3rd or 4th production 16 boat built. He also relayed to me that it was the FIRST 16 equipped with the Volvo 200. That is where I believe the confusion lie all these decades with folks "in the know". In essence, no one ever asked Brownie the question the correct way. I'm still trying to dig up some additional information on one particular owner of the first three production 16's built, but getting information on the gent is proving to be difficult because I'm spending too much time running The Mule in the warm weather.

This particular guy was evidently good friends with Doc Magoon for many, many years if you have any way of connecting the dots. The guy is a major piece of the 1964 timeline puzzle for me..

Greg Guimond
11-08-2015, 08:57 PM
the one pic you posted of the ad is from the original press photo brochure layout by Gross Greenman advertising it was the BW shots of the 16 top bottom and the one on the trailer being pulled by a 64 el camino . the one on the yacht is one i have never seen ,neat

Can you post the 1964 El Camino ad photo?

Edit: Photo below courtesy of LGDCC

mattyboy
11-09-2015, 10:00 AM
here is the brochure and some of the press photos the boat in all of these pics has an AQ 200 and the only 16 I have seen with the deck stripe that goes down thru the dash also no dash plate gauges are cut into the dash TOMRON believes this to be number 1 I think it is the boat Mike Aronow tells the story of the first ride with his Father no grab rail these pics the black and white ones are used in the semi colored brochure you can see these pics are taken at the first photo shoot and for the upcoming public release sometime in the early fall very late summer of 64 also note I don't see any mention of the interceptor in any literature until the oct 1965 price list. note this boat has the Swedish flag very few boats were ever seen with the Swedish flag Wynn wanted the 16 to be fitted with his drive and that flag makes that link. Notice you see Formulas still at the Donzi factory being finsihed. trying to find color pics of this shoot. I also think the dock strike force some fords into boats instead of the volvos

http://www.lgdonziclassic.com/pdfs/skisportlit.pdf

mattyboy
11-10-2015, 06:39 AM
i have looked at all the stuff I have and that 16 brochure was re-worked at least once and those BW pics are used in several versions and smaller ads including the St T brochure and flyer

Greg do you have the BW pic of the 16s handy the one with Jim and Brownie running side by sideand the handwriting on it, can you post it up

I am going thru all the early test articles including the popular boating , rudder , boating news and a few other write ups

I found a few things that may help with the timeline

http://www.powerboatnation.com/brownies-bites-tales-from-thunderboat-row/

Greg Guimond
11-10-2015, 09:28 AM
Here (I think) is the side by side shot with Jim Wynne and Alan Brown ...............

Also, Matty do you by chance have the June, 1965 issue of Popular Boating magazine archived? I've been trying to find one for over a year now and no luck. There are several puzzle pieces in there for the 1964 builds.

mattyboy
11-10-2015, 09:37 AM
yes I have it I will try and upload to the LGDCC resource page some of the pdfs I have are too big and won't upload

mattyboy
11-10-2015, 04:20 PM
Greg

popular boating june of 1965

two boats are tested and photographed during the APRIL 15th 1965 test session There are two boats at dinner key an original demo boat and a newer 16 with an 165 interceptor the author runs the old demo boat which he says is propped wrong and not tuned and has been ridden hard the feel I get, is he didn't want bash this boat so has a trusted honest friend test run the other 16 a newer 165 hp eaton boat test results are given on the newer 165 boat.

the boats pictured are a volvo boat with the deck stripe thru the dash a swedish flag and an aq 200 the original hull 1 pictured in all the original BW press photo shoot

the other newer 16 is a 165 interceptor and a dash plate the stripe doesn't go thru the dash and it looks to have a boot stripe. the picture of these two boats IS NOT the pic of Wynn and Brownie

Greg Guimond
11-10-2015, 05:15 PM
Matty,

That is good information. As you see in my timeline excerpt below that I wrote I did NOT know that two hulls were validated in the magazine. Let me know when you get the article scanned in as I'd like to take a close look. I have one very specific clue in mind, but I don't want to cloud the 50 year old waters just yet until I can read it several times and then go through my notes.


September 1964 - "Popular Boating"' magazine writes that Hull #2 (or #3) is demonstrated at longtime establishment Santana Marine in Coconut Grove Florida running on Dinner Key. The iconic "grab rail" is offered as a $48 option on the 1964s. No pictures survive of it at Santana Marine but this hull could be the one a bearded Jim Wynne is piloting alongside Brownie in the same photo referenced above. The hull is Volvo powered and rigged with an AQ drive after Wynne and Volvo President Harald Wiklund introduced the first drive to America in 1959. Which model is on that Santana demo boat, 100 or 200? It does not have a grab rail, and carries the Swedish decal (recognizing Volvo) first followed by America. These three items are identical to the press boat photo. It is white with a red deck stripe and red waterline boot stripe. Very possible that the "press boat" was also the "demo boat" that PB's Dick Borden wrote about in there June 1965 issue.

Greg Guimond
11-10-2015, 05:42 PM
In the interim, another door that I was able to close was Donzi's reach out to the West Coast. We all knew with 100% certainty that Balboa Marine was a dealer in Newport Beach, CA for these early builds. Over the past couple of years while doing research on Outboards I developed a strong hunch that there was another dealer/friend of Don A up in Washington State. I was finally able to dredge up an ad from 1965 that confirms that Bryant's Marina was a part of the very early Donzi family, and I suspect, the only other dealer out West. Bryant's has a long and storied history in Seattle and the Northwest world of race boats as an aside.


And below are two later pieces on Bryant's that I had found a couple of years back. The advertisement referenced above I only found in September.

mattyboy
11-10-2015, 06:26 PM
Greg
I have no info on the sept 1964 article and test you are going to have to find that. The dinner key test was on April 15 th 1965 and appeared in print in their June 1965 issue

Greg Guimond
11-10-2015, 06:43 PM
Greg
I have no info on the sept 1964 article and test you are going to have to find that. The dinner key test was on April 15 th 1965 and appeared in print in their June 1965 issue

Oops. Poor wording on my part! I have to re-word the excerpt I wrote as it is confusing. In fact, I want to read the June 1965 issue that you have. The issue is below.

jl1962
11-10-2015, 07:22 PM
Nice work guys.

Don't peak too early.....

It's a long winter.

Also - very interested in the Popular Boating article that starts on pg. 39, I'm good friends w/ Bill Snaith's son - he's been in both of my Donzis many times.

mattyboy
11-10-2015, 07:28 PM
Courtesy of the Mystic seaport Museum and the LGDCC resource Page Popular Boating June 1965 (http://www.lgdonziclassic.com/pdfs/16test.pdf)

Greg Guimond
11-10-2015, 08:15 PM
Thanks Matty, this will take a couple of days to absorb it and match up some of my notes.

Jay, pretty small world. Amazing that there is a second connection.

One note right off the bat is the opening sentence from Bob Cox. Bob was a VERY well known guy in Southern Florida. His family is still a fixture there today. He and his good friend Ed Joyce raced numerous boats in the late 60's including Donzi's. Bob was an early Donzi dealer and friend of Don's from Formula. In fact he raced a Formula in a 1963 ocean race.

This should be an interesting read. :yes:

mattyboy
11-10-2015, 08:16 PM
Courtesy of The Mariner's Museum and the LGDCC resource page Miami Nassau Popular Boating June 1965 (http://www.lgdonziclassic.com/pdfs/popular.pdf)


The cover pic is from the A&F photo shoot for their 12 months of Christmas Catalog That is Don A. driving

Greg Guimond
11-10-2015, 09:07 PM
The cover pic is from the A&F photo shoot for their 12 months of Christmas Catalog That is Don A. driving

Don himself is at the helm in the picture below? Very cool. So when do you think roughly the photograph was actually taken if the testing for the article took place on April 15, 1965?

mattyboy
11-11-2015, 06:33 AM
working on that, photos of Don in all white driving a red 16 appear in color on this cover and also an A&F layout color hulls come in 1965 color layouts at the time where costly and uncommon not sure as of yet when or who prompted the shoot I will try and get a timeline on that

wonder white was the base color to start. what info do you have that hull 1 was an eaton???

mattyboy
11-11-2015, 07:23 AM
a question for the sunshine state what does the 62 mean in the address North Miami Beach 62 ? as it is listed on some of the early ads and literature??

mattyboy
11-11-2015, 02:55 PM
the Aronow pic is most likely from the first quarter of 1965 and may have been taken for the cover of PB june's edition another pic at a different angle appears in the late fall of 1965 A&F 12 months of christmas catalog for 1966 so it really has no bearing on the 64 build timeline

Greg Guimond
11-11-2015, 04:08 PM
the Aronow pic is most likely from the first quarter of 1965 and may have been taken for the cover of PB june's edition another pic at a different angle appears in the late fall of 1965 A&F 12 months of christmas catalog for 1966 so it really has no bearing on the 64 build timeline

That sucks.................

I thought that the red 16 with Don driving could have been a 1964 build but you have crossed that option off the list. Then, after reading the magazine article I thought that the second 16 tested could have also been built in 1964 but no dice. Only one of those two hulls was built in 1964. I looked back in my notes and Robert Cox is a solid lead though. Bob (ex Ft Lauderdale Mayor) was an early dealer for Don A and Formula. He then moved with Don and became a dealer for Donzi in 1964. It would make a whole lot of sense that he bought a 1964 16 Ski Sporter to demo at Lauderdale Marine. The gent who was the GM of his boat yard was Ed Joyce. Ed was an accomplished mariner and race boat guy both with and without Bob. He and Bob became great friends and actually had many offshore races under there belts. For some of those races in '64 and '65 they ran a very unique Donzi with wacker power, but I digress.

In any event Fast Freddy Darwick commented to woobs at some point that right before or after Fred and Judy bought there 1964 Ski Sporter that I posted the pictures of Don A sold another 16 to an unnamed individual. My suspicion is that specific hull was sold to Lauderdale Marine under the name of Robert Cox. I reached out to Mr. Cox's son-in-law (Ted) on the matter for some additional research but I found out that his wife had just passed away last year so I did not want to bother him more. He did however recall that his wife had told stories to the grand kids of smashing her old man's Donzi into a pier when she was a kid. Her old man was Bob Cox. He died a few years ago at 97 and Ted said if he were still alive he'd remember every stinkin detail.

I also sent an email off to Tomron yesterday but nada back just yet.

woobs
11-11-2015, 07:08 PM
...In any event Fast Freddy Darwick commented to woobs at some point that right before or after Fred and Judy bought there 1964 Ski Sporter that I posted the pictures of Don A sold another 16 to an unnamed individual. My suspicion is that specific hull was sold to Lauderdale Marine under the name of Robert Cox. I reached out to Mr. Cox's son-in-law (Ted) on the matter for some additional research but I found out that his wife had just passed away last year so I did not want to bother him more. He did however recall that his wife had told stories to the grand kids of smashing her old man's Donzi into a pier when she was a kid. Her old man was Bob Cox. He died a few years ago at 97 and Ted said if he were still alive he'd remember every stinkin detail...

Fred also told me he still knows where this White/blue 16 (now repowered) is and who the owners are.

Greg Guimond
11-11-2015, 10:06 PM
Looking at the visual clues in this ad, how do we square the specific 16 hull into the 1964 build timeline?

mattyboy
11-12-2015, 06:28 AM
Greg
that pic is from the BW original press release it featured that pic and pics of the bottom pics of the top with without the cover and with the zip out open That boat is the biggest piece of the puzzle the shoot also has it on a trailer behind the el camino and without the el camino on the lift hanging by the steering wheel these pics are used for the original release of sales literature


THIS IS HULL ONE the first ever donzi 16 and it is equipped with AN AQ 200

Greg Guimond
11-12-2015, 06:43 AM
Is the color on it wonder white with a grumble green deck stripe and a waterline stripe Matty?

mattyboy
11-12-2015, 07:43 AM
Not sure haven't found a color pic of it which probably doesn't exist it was most likely shot in b w I would image the original colors would all look black in b w pics the hull is white the more I look this is hull one

Greg Guimond
11-12-2015, 08:08 AM
Agree a color picture would really help. Question for you. How does the wonder white with Red deck stripe only 16 that was tested in the July 21, 1965 issue of Teknikens Varld fit then into the 1964 build timeline?

mattyboy
11-12-2015, 03:35 PM
Agree a color picture would really help. Question for you. How does the wonder white with Red deck stripe only 16 that was tested in the July 21, 1965 issue of Teknikens Varld fit then into the 1964 build timeline?


I don't think it does I think it is a 65

mattyboy
11-12-2015, 05:23 PM
let's try this

Sept 1964 hull one is popped from the mold it is all wonder white with boot and deck stripes in one of 3 available colors Lucan red, Christina Blue or Grumble green it has no vents or grab rail it has the donzi script and the USA pennant and the Swedish Flag. It's deck stripe doesn't stop at the cockpit lip it continues down the dash . The gauges are cut directly into dash It is powered by the new Volvo Penta 110 hp AQ200 drive The power and drive that the 16 has been built for with LH rotation that fits the helm location and is monetarily beneficial to one of it's designers Jim Wynne he is involved with Volvo .

Once it is popped from the mold a press shoot is arranged and several BW press photos are taken and used for flyers brochures and ads. the pics show a few top side shots with and without the cover one of her bottom and a few on the trailer. the shot of her bottom shows the new deep v design with full length outer strakes and long inner strakes that end about 2 feet from the transom.

After the photo shoot the boat is water tested and it is found that the AQ200 doesn't like the disturbed turbulent water that it is running in caused by the long inner strakes. A redesign is put in motion 2 other hulls in the other two colors are in progress and maybe one or two others as well some of these hulls may be powered by other drives that are LH the eaton or the older volvo 100 series these other boats are rigged and either sold or used as demo ( one of these is Fred Darwicks boat in DEC 64)


time frame unknown at this point

to help trouble shoot the issue a short strake 16 is sent to sweden and is tested by Volvo they want to make sure it is the strakes and not any thing else like thru drive exhaust so they run thru hull exhaust on the 4 cyl the first setup of this kind.

Greg Guimond
11-12-2015, 07:14 PM
let's try this

Sept 1964 hull one is popped from the mold it is all wonder white with boot and deck stripes in one of 3 available colors Lucan red, Christina Blue or Grumble green it has no vents or grab rail it has the donzi script and the USA pennant and the Swedish Flag. It's deck stripe doesn't stop at the cockpit lip it continues down the dash . The gauges are cut directly into dash It is powered by the new Volvo Penta 110 hp AQ200 drive The power and drive that the 16 has been built for with LH rotation that fits the helm location and is monetarily beneficial to one of it's designers Jim Wynne he is involved with Volvo .

Once it is popped from the mold a press shoot is arranged and several BW press photos are taken and used for flyers brochures and ads. the pics show a few top side shots with and without the cover one of her bottom and a few on the trailer. the shot of her bottom shows the new deep v design with full length outer strakes and long inner strakes that end about 2 feet from the transom.

After the photo shoot the boat is water tested and it is found that the AQ200 doesn't like the disturbed turbulent water that it is running in caused by the long inner strakes. A redesign is put in motion 2 other hulls in the other two colors are in progress and maybe one or two others as well some of these hulls may be powered by other drives that are LH the eaton or the older volvo 100 series these other boats are rigged and either sold or used as demo ( one of these is Fred Darwicks boat in DEC 64)


time frame unknown at this point

to help trouble shoot the issue a short strake 16 is sent to sweden and is tested by Volvo they want to make sure it is the strakes and not any thing else like thru drive exhaust so they run thru hull exhaust on the 4 cyl the first setup of this kind.


Matty, I can see many pieces making sense in what you wrote above. The one major piece I can't reconcile though is that Alan Brown indicated that the AQ200 was installed in the 3rd or 4th 16 Ski Sporter hull built. That guy has a reputation for remembering things. The only other guy still alive that would have possible insight is Waltman Walters.

Btw, I neglected to answer your earlier question about why I had Eaton in the opening time stamp of my build time-line. The answer to that is ......... I actually can't remember! Give me a day or two to dig it up.

Greg Guimond
11-12-2015, 09:48 PM
Matty, what drive is on the back of this 16 pictured below?

woobs
11-12-2015, 10:34 PM
It could be an EATON.......
83248

mattyboy
11-13-2015, 04:21 AM
a true Eaton kick up spin up ( you can barely see the control cables coming from the top triangle) with it looks like Brownie driving so I would say that pic is from the shoot with him and Jim running side by side.

remember you can go aq 200 to eaton with a sawzall but not the other way

mattyboy
11-13-2015, 04:36 AM
showed Brownie the el camino pic from above an he said that is the Jax show boat but he used his Lincoln to get it there. So I would say they used the show boat for the press shoot the wonder white and blue stripes.

I would also say that they knew with the success of the 233 that they needed multiple molds to maximize production. I would think they had 3-4 molds ready to go and it would make sense to pop 3 in all 3 colors red green and blue to start.

If you read the Brownie bite I posted they knew the formula ( punn intended that's Brownie's joke gotta give credit where credit is due) win the races in the fall and sell the **** out of them in the next year just like they did with the 233. so in oct nov they gear up for the upcoming sales year get the pics have the brochures and flyers made but it is early they only list the winns of the wyn-mil II and only mention the volvo as power for the 16 in the original literature but then in 1965 they re work it to include the Donzi wins and Fred's wins in all the brochures. on the fly I suspect they used what ever power they could get their hands on

also in thet Brownie bite he mentions getting the 200 at first was not easy between the start up of a new drive . plus I have to add the month long longshoremen's strike getting imports into the country was a much longer process than normal.

mattyboy
11-13-2015, 05:02 AM
woobs

the last pic of the eaton you posted that drive isn't gonna kick up spin up or spin off.

A member here posted about one spinning up then spinning off the boat underway leaving a big hole in the boat

not sure who that was

Greg Guimond
11-13-2015, 08:39 AM
So the 1964 builds seem to be shaping up as .................

#1 - White w/Grumble Green deck stripe and Eaton drive as shown in photo
#2 - White w/Lucan Red deck and waterline stripe and Volvo 200 drive
#3 - White w/Lucan Red deck stripe only and Volvo 100 drive (Swede Thomas Ronnberg owner)
#4 - Solid Grumble Green w/ Lucan Red deck stripe - Drive unknown ( NJ Frank Civitano's Father owner after Michael Aronow)
#5 - White w/Cristina Blue deck stripe and Volvo 200 drive - (Alan Brown Jax show boat)
#6 - White w/Grumble Green deck stripe and special 3" longer Volvo 100 drive - (Fred Darwick owner)
#7 - White w/Blue deck stripe and special Volvo 100 drive - (Fred Darwick assisted in the sale, buyer could have been Bob Cox Lauderdale Marine)
#8 - Mystery puzzle piece member-- Joe _ _ _ _ from Miami races a 16 Classic
#9 - January 1965 New York Boat Show 16
#10 - Second New York Boat Show 16

mattyboy
11-13-2015, 09:45 AM
So the 1964 builds seem to be shaping up as .................

#1 - White w/Grumble Green deck stripe and Eaton drive as shown in photo
#2 - White w/Lucan Red deck and waterline stripe and Volvo 200 drive
#3 - White w/Lucan Red deck stripe only and Volvo 100 drive (Swede Thomas Ronnberg owner)
#4 - Solid Grumble Green w/ Lucan Red deck stripe - Drive unknown ( NJ Frank Civitano's Father owner after Michael Aronow)
#5 - White w/Cristina Blue deck stripe and Volvo 200 drive - (Alan Brown Jax show boat)
#6 - White w/Grumble Green deck stripe and special 3" longer Volvo 100 drive - (Fred Darwick owner)
#7 - White w/Blue deck stripe and special Volvo 100 drive - (Fred Darwick assisted in the sale, buyer could have been Bob Cox Lauderdale Marine)
#8 - Mystery puzzle piece member-- Joe _ _ _ _ from Miami races a 16 Classic
#9 - January 1965 New York Boat Show 16
#10 - Second New York Boat Show 16


1&2 Greg what info do you have on the hull number 1 and 2 to support this ?? isn't the jax boat show the first 200 drive in the country? you have # 2 with a 200

#4 an all grumble green boat built in 64 is highly suspect it is an early 65 boat The early hornets were all green yes but they had a much bigger price tag and took 3x as long to produce. The delivery time on a hornet is 12 weeks so i would say besides the race 19s all the first hornets are 65s as are the St Ts


#3 Tomron boat is the teknikens boat isn't it????

#8 what race?

9&10 what info do you have on two boats at the nyc show???


where would you put the hull rework into this and what boats are long straked and short straked?


I think this list is about 4-5 hulls high


the 16 donzi hornet ????? motor boating you had one job really????

Greg Guimond
11-13-2015, 07:54 PM
I think I forgot two boats to make it an even dozen ...............


The Muncey 16 that was given as a gift

and Sam Ballingers 16, white with a blue deck stripe and blue waterline stripe

1964 Donzi Ski Sporter,

Unmolested, and as it came from the factory
Hull DM988 (#4?), 47 hours on Hobbs meter
Power is 165hp Ford V-8 interceptor, I/O drive is Eaton unit, Engine Runs Great, as does Eaton drive
Have owned for 10 years and used 6 times , Cushions good not new. Needs plastic cover for rear light.
Trailer in Good shape.

Price $11,000.00 obo
Contact Ballinger@resolutelaw.com
Cell 813-401-9018http://www.donzi.net/forums/skypec2c://r/204813-401-9018 (9am-5pm EST

Greg Guimond
11-14-2015, 07:05 AM
Matty, let me take a stab at a couple of your questions over morning coffee..............



1&2 Greg what info do you have on the hull number 1 and 2 to support this ?? isn't the jax boat show the first 200 drive in the country? you have # 2 with a 200

GRG: We have several photos of what Alan Brown says are "The first two 16's". In those photos, one of the two boats has an Eaton drive. Then, add to this Brownies comment about the Jax show boat NOT being the first 16 hull built but probably hull 3 or 4 I am going to say that the first hull ever built was the Eaton powered hull.

#4 an all grumble green boat built in 64 is highly suspect it is an early 65 boat The early hornets were all green yes but they had a much bigger price tag and took 3x as long to produce. The delivery time on a hornet is 12 weeks so i would say besides the race 19s all the first hornets are 65s as are the St Ts.

GRG: I'm going to look to you Matty to take this one on. Can you track down Frank Civitano and ask him about his Dad's boat please? I'm not sure what bearing the 19' Hornets have on painting a 16 green. You had the heir to the Kleenex fortune running around with Don Aronow at the time. My guess is that he (James Kimberly) played a role in convincing Don to turn out a solid color 1964. Civitano would have some additional info as you know. His Dad was friends with Don A from his real estate development days.


#3 Tomron boat is the teknikens boat isn't it????

#8 what race?

9&10 what info do you have on two boats at the nyc show???


where would you put the hull rework into this and what boats are long straked and short straked?


I think this list is about 4-5 hulls high


the 16 donzi hornet ????? motor boating you had one job really????

mattyboy
11-14-2015, 09:41 AM
Greg


if the green hornets have no bearing on this why post a picture of them especially if the magazine can't get it right a 16 hornet ??? that writer should get paper cuts on his typing finger . I thought production time is very key to this discussion a hornet started in oct 64 would be delivered in jan of 65. so they have to build at least one for the 65 show tour they are all green they are not marketed to the 16 crowd

the first 16 is a volvo powered 16 Mike A tells the story KOTBR

the pics you have may very well be the the first and second of the reworked hull do you have a date on them? THIS IS THE BIGGEST PIECE OF THE PUZZLE is it possible this pic is taken during the 1st quarter of 65

would have been nice to see the dash of the red boat or the green boat to see how the deck stripe was treated.


TOMRON's boat is short straked and the deck stripe doesn't go thru the dash and has a volvo dash plate . it needs to be on it's way to sweden by dec of 64 or it won't leave this country til some time in Feb of 65 the articles I have seen on the strike say the ports were hosed with backlog in some cases for several months. His boat is reviewed in teknikens in july of 65 and also ran in the 65 Gettingloppet which is also sometime in July this boat may be the prototype of the new bottom

my point with the strakes is the first one(s) had long ones like the press photo boat same with the deck stripe these are signs of being first

I also see the interior cushions were redesigned at some point maybe bilt-rite isn't in on the early ones and they come along later or they use their very skilled talent to refine the interior


I will skip trying to build the whole time line when we need to start at 1 so until we find and confirm hull one the rest will be confirmed later

also the 16 was never designed for the v8 interceptor that was an after thought and an on the fly rework I think due to lack of volvo to begin with the eaton interceptor is used to fill the gap this also is a key to the early boat having problems with the bigger powerplant and having bottom issues and failure they original layup wasn't stout enough

Greg Guimond
11-14-2015, 10:23 AM
Greg, the first 16 is a volvo powered 16 Mike A tells the story KOTBR. the pics you have may very well be the the first and second of the reworked hull do you have a date on them? THIS IS THE BIGGEST PIECE OF THE PUZZLE is it possible this pic is taken during the 1st quarter of 65.

I don't have the book KOTBR handy but I tend to believe Alan Brown over Mike Aronow.

Can you snap a picture of what Mike Aronow writes in it and post it? Brownie said the AQ200 drive was in the 3rd or 4th 16 hull built but hell that WAS 50 years ago. Mike Aronow says the opposite but he was barely shaving. Then a third angle is the press photos you supplied which shows a Volvo 200 drive and the fourth angle is the handwritten note from Brownie that shows BOTH a Eaton drive and a Volvo drive on the two 16's.

It was 50 years ago. Michael Aronow was maybe 15 years old and Brownie is now maybe 81?

Post up that King of Thunderboat Row sentences and let's see if we can grab anything from it. :yes: Winter hasn't even started yet, plenty of time.

mattyboy
11-14-2015, 10:33 AM
the muncey boat was highly modified and modernized during the resto mod and no other proof was given besides the word of the person who owns the boat now It is an early 65 boat there is no proof to consider this a 64

mattyboy
11-14-2015, 10:58 AM
Greg



let me ask a few questions

when do you think the side by side pics was taken ?

why is it not included in any of the original sales literature?

why are there no running pics of a 16 at all in the original sales literature?


you need to buy KOTBR it is on amazon


I have to disagree with I think Mike is very accurate when recalling his father.

the story is about his ride with his Dad in the new 16 design powered by a 4 banger volvo and the ride where is father is running so hard the only thing he could hold onto was the driver seat pedestal in Don's words " Mike what the hell are you doing down there" then his Dad gives him the helm and Mike runs the boat he runs it so hard turning the tables on his Dad and his Dad has to tell him to take it easy Mike he also says that Don gave anyone out that day a good Look at the new Donzi .

Knowing what we know about Don if there is a 4cyl and from what you say is the first 16 with a 8cyl at the dock what boat is Don going to get into?

Greg Guimond
11-14-2015, 11:06 AM
So you have the book KOTBR right there next to you and you won't post a pic of Mike's write-up? Why? Am I missing something?

mattyboy
11-15-2015, 09:03 AM
let's see if we can set benchmarks that are known and confirmed and then filter the info we have thru it to establish the timeline on the first go round I will leave some info blank and fill in what we know is confirmed

Hull 0 (prototype)- volvo 110 hp powered but not an aq 200 most likely an aq100 time frame before NOV 64 has DONZI painted on it in the rear gunwales basically the same as what was done on the first hornet and the raceboats ,Don and Mike A test drove, no grab rails no interior

Hull 1- power unknown but not a volvo aq 200 time frame around Nov 64 no grab rail color?

Hull 2 power unknown but not an aq 200 timeframe around Nov 64 no grab rail color?

Hull 3 Jax show boat white blue stripes first aq 200 nov 64 this is believed to be the press shoot boat????

so let's run the side by side pic thru that filter?? the green boat could fit 1 or 2 but not 0 or 3 the red boat doesn't fit 0-3 unless they repowered it when the aq 200 came out ??

added notes: the aq100 looks very much like the eaton shape wise the upper and lower on the drive and there are controls that come from the top of the transom housings to the top of the drive the transom housings are completely different the aq 200 has no visible controls so telling them apart is fairly easy by looking at them
the pic of Fred's first race boat looks like an aq 100 they make the 110 with both drives production era on the 110 aq200 is 1963 to 1966.

Greg Guimond
11-15-2015, 09:19 AM
Again, so you have the book King of Thunderboat Row right there next to you and you won't post a pic of Mike's write-up? Why? Am I missing something?

mattyboy
11-15-2015, 09:42 AM
why do I need to post a pic I said what he wrote?

Greg Guimond
11-15-2015, 10:26 AM
Again, so you have the book King of Thunderboat Row right there next to you and you won't post a pic of Mike's write-up? Why? Am I missing something?


why do I need to post a pic I said what he wrote?

Umm ...... Because I asked you nicely and I would personally find it interesting to read it? Because it takes two to four seconds to snap a picture on your phone of the page and then post it? Because 3 other peeps of the 12 who read this stuff might not have the book and would be interested in Michael Aronow's (Don's Son) specific description of the AQ200? Because I'm too cheap to buy the book on Amazon lol

Come on man, show the spirit of co-operation? Where's the love! :)

Do I have to pick you up under the Tappan Zee Bridge later today in The Mule and earn my bones :superman:

Today will be downright balmy at 60 compared to yesterdays 50 degrees and 25 knot breeze. I probably won't need my head gear. Heading out in 30 ............ them there Merc hamsters are hungry!

mattyboy
11-15-2015, 10:29 AM
for the doubting Thomas sorry my daughter took back her scanner printer so you have to use my pics which are usually fuzzy


HULL 0 prototype powered by a 110 hp volvo and what must be an aq100 the boat is wonder white and stripes unkown no grab rail


from The King of Thunderboat Row by Michael Aronow a book any Donzi fan must have they were selling for near $500 now at around $125 on Amazon

notice the painted donzi reference and look at the 28 race boat DONZI 28 on the rear gunwales the hornet that Brownie raced had DONZI 19 on the rear gunwales these are some of the first Donzi ever built so it makes total sense when the first 16 came out they would paint Donzi on it

Morgan's Cloud
11-15-2015, 10:57 AM
for the doubting Thomas sorry my daughter took back her scanner printer so you have to use my pics which are usually fuzzy


HULL 0 prototype powered by a 110 hp volvo and what must be an aq100 the boat is wonder white and stripes unkown no grab rail


from The King of Thunderboat Row by Michael Aronow a book any Donzi fan must have they were selling for near $500 now at around $125 on Amazon

notice the painted donzi reference and look at the 28 race boat DONZI 28 on the rear gunwales the hornet that Brownie raced had DONZI 19 on the rear gunwales these are some of the first Donzi ever built so it makes total sense when the first 16 came out they would paint Donzi on it



That was a great read Matty , thanks for posting it . (My eyes MIGHT return to normal in an hour or so)
One thing that I wonder about is how 'terrifying' the ride really was in that 16 . I could see it , no matter what , with Don himself driving as I know what that's like firsthand in a 28SS .
But those little 110 Volvos really only translated into about 80hp at the prop and the 16 is such a sweet hull .Maybe it was just the novelty of being in a boat so much smaller than the 233 that they had all gotten used to .

mattyboy
11-15-2015, 11:02 AM
MC
my wife can relate to that story she said no way in hell would she be in a 16 without a grab rail when I gave her the wheel she was like oh yeah this is so much better sitting down with the wheel to hold on to.

jl1962
11-15-2015, 11:02 AM
MC - you beat me to it.
Thanks, Matty.

I'm too cheap to buy one also.
Although they look a little cheaper than the last time I checked.

Great first hand report on Michael's first ride. I know my kids can relate!
Of course it all changes when it's YOU behind the wheel - too funny.

Greg- I'm cold just looking at your pictures.

Pace yourselves ;)

mattyboy
11-15-2015, 11:10 AM
Note to add to the benchmark filter

looking at the pics of "genesis" the volvo 100 transom plate looks to be the same basic shape as the newer aq200-280 they have one solid rubber stop for the tilted drive and what looks like a tiller arm for the steering to the top of the drive with the bellows hose visible the first aq200 has two round rubber dots as the drive stop and the steering connection is the helmet style like all the 200 to 280 drives have this helmet covers the bellows hose

the volvo transom housing is diamond shaped and white

the eaton transom housing is round and black and has a traingular top where the exposed controls connect to the top of the drive

so when looking at pics of the back of the boat we can tell what drive is there

let's run the picture that Greg posted thru this filter and you decide what drives these 16s have

Morgan's Cloud
11-15-2015, 01:10 PM
MC
my wife can relate to that story she said no way in hell would she be in a 16 without a grab rail when I gave her the wheel she was like oh yeah this is so much better sitting down with the wheel to hold on to.


I think I was forgetting about the lack of grab rail thingy , still a little '110hp' four banger in a 16 by today's standards would be like a bicycle with training wheels on it . :biggrin.:

Mind you , I recall my first (and only ) ride in an 18 at the '93 MIBS that had the new 351 OMC/Volvo SX in it . Rail or not I was very glad to step back on the dock afterwards !

mattyboy
11-15-2015, 03:26 PM
while people work on the drive question I will try and get an idea when the press shoot was and seems people like to look at old stuff so enjoy


the press shoot must have been taken before nov of 64 as seen here in the original lay out also note they don't list any other power options and only offer wonder white hulls there is no mention of any race wins except that of the wyn-mil II

http://www.lgdonziclassic.com/pdfs/skisportlit.pdf


then sometime in 1965 that brochure is worked down to a 2 page flyer and now lists the wyn-mil records and also all of the 1965 Team Donzi records including pics of Fred's boat and his records sorry page one and 2 are of the dink look at page 3 and 4 you can see they used some of the pics from the first brochure and added a few new ones still only volvo power and wonder white hulls

http://www.lgdonziclassic.com/pdfs/dink16.pdf


then look at the first st tropez brochure basically the same layout as the original 16 layout but done sometime in 65 as it also lists the most current 1965 race results I would imagine this brochure and the 16 re work ed brochure were done at the same time . So who has the dates for these races?

Morgan's Cloud should like this

http://www.lgdonziclassic.com/pdfs/19flyer.pdf

Morgan's Cloud
11-15-2015, 05:37 PM
then look at the first st tropez brochure basically the same layout as the original 16 layout but done sometime in 65 as it also lists the most current 1965 race results I would imagine this brochure and the 16 re work ed brochure were done at the same time . So who has the dates for these races?

Morgan's Cloud should like this

http://www.lgdonziclassic.com/pdfs/19flyer.pdf

Matty , I've seen that brochure before .. is that an Eaton on that one ? The deck hardware is all like mine but the reason I ask is because when I replaced my transom a very clever repair utilizing a plug and glasswork had been done way before and there was something else there under the glass skins that was not a match for the Merc cutout and I never figured out what it was . Mine was sold to me as a 66 by the way and I know for sure that the 351 that was in it was only 10 or so years old.
Oh , how these threads move around .. lol

mattyboy
11-15-2015, 06:04 PM
yes eaton big round cutout

mattyboy
11-16-2015, 10:45 AM
another note later in 1965-67 Eaton used the Volvo aq 200 and put their name on it this was also done by Holman Moody Marine and Chrysler Marine at some point in time after eaton did it. This as no bearing on this discussion just a clarification to Morgan's Cloud that besides the spin up off eaton an early donzi could have an eaton by volvo drive which would have a standard aq 200-280 cutout.
Jay Lurie's and My 16 were like this my 16 was repowered by Holman Moody the paper work said eaton replacement but there were no signs of glass work the volvo 250 bolted right up Jay's drive had all the eaton paperwork and ran for about 40 yrs before it blew a lower he used the lower off my 250.
but i digress

no aswer on the drives yet?

jl1962
11-16-2015, 11:49 AM
Sorry - thought it was a rhetorical question.

1 looks like Eaton
2 definitely Volvo
And neither of these is the Teknikens boat.

Question - weren't Formula Jrs using an early Merc I/O?
Or was that in the later '60s boats?

mattyboy
11-16-2015, 11:52 AM
Merc had an 888 drive pre alpha I believe Forrest here has a 302 FSB merc 888 drive. early 70s boat

Jay yes that is they way I see it too.

white and green boat true spin up eaton

white red boat volvo aq200

jl1962
11-16-2015, 11:55 AM
I'm thinking of the 1966 Mercruiser KICK ad w/ the blue/white junior.

mattyboy
11-16-2015, 11:57 AM
Jay not sure I would think Karl was not going to get out done by anyone

jl1962
11-16-2015, 11:58 AM
83267

mattyboy
11-17-2015, 08:06 AM
man that's a small picture i guess the kick never really made it no 45 yr old drives still around

can I get a yumpin yiminey for the robust engineering of the Swedes

Greg Guimond
11-17-2015, 12:53 PM
for the doubting Thomas sorry my daughter took back her scanner printer so you have to use my pics which are usually fuzzy


HULL 0 prototype powered by a 110 hp volvo and what must be an aq100 the boat is wonder white and stripes unkown no grab rail


from The King of Thunderboat Row by Michael Aronow a book any Donzi fan must have they were selling for near $500 now at around $125 on Amazon

notice the painted donzi reference and look at the 28 race boat DONZI 28 on the rear gunwales the hornet that Brownie raced had DONZI 19 on the rear gunwales these are some of the first Donzi ever built so it makes total sense when the first 16 came out they would paint Donzi on it

Ok thanks for posting the content. I went boating yesterday and while hunkered down to find my phone for a temperature reading (yes, it does say 70 degrees) I was thinking about Michael Aronow's creative test drive description. The first thing that came to mind was that he must have actually been a dwarf as there aint no way anyone can get lost in the "bottom" or floor of a 16 Ski Sporter.

Now, of greater importance is that Michael's description discloses nothing about what specific model drive was attached to Donzi 16 hull #1. It says only that it had a Volvo 110 engine in there. Now, if you believe Alan Brown's recollection that the boat at the Jacksonville show was the FIRST 200 lower unit but the 3rd or 4th 16 hull built then I think we have some better context.

Mike A - #1 -- Volvo 110 motor (drive unknown but Matty believes it could have been a 100)
Alan Brown driving # 2 green stripe with an Eaton drive in the color photos
Jim Wynne driving # 3 red stripe with a Volvo drive in the color pics and the black and white press pics
Alan Brown again with # 4, (chritina blue deck stripe) the Jax showboat with the first Volvo 200 drive ( Mercury took great pains to try and get a close-up look at the brand new 200 drive)

As a useless side note, the 100 lower units would have been faster than a 200 drive as the 100 profile that was dragged through the water was slimmer than the 200

mattyboy
11-17-2015, 01:05 PM
Greg


the red and white boat you posted pics of has an AQ200 on it with Jim Wynne at the wheel what hull do say this is?


What I am calling hull zero was the prototype and had Donzi painted on it like the race boats all we know is the deck was white it had no grab rail and a 110hp volvo the production boats only had the script I would imagine that would be hard to read as Don drove by at 40 mph

there are so many if's here let's just focus on what hull you think the red and white hull with the aq200 and Wynne at the wheel is????

Greg Guimond
11-17-2015, 01:28 PM
Well, here is how I'm looking at it. If you believe Alan Brown is accurate in his recollection that the boat he was personally next to in the booth at the Jacksonville Boat Show on November 13, 1964 was ......

a. Wonder White with a Christina Blue deck stripe
b. The first AQ200 drive in the USA
c. Probably the 3rd or 4th 16 Ski Sporter hull built

than ...... the only way to further verify where the 16 with Lucan Red deck stripe Jim Wynn is driving (with the AQ 200 drive on the back) falls into my "64 Time Line" is to get a date on the same boat that is in the Black and White press photo shoot. Those two pictures are of the same boat and drive, correct? Brownie is pretty darn good with details but AGAIN the dude is 81 years old and we are asking him to remember something that occurred 50 years ago.

Matty, did you find out about what date the press shoot occurred yet, or are you still working on that piece?

Probably important factoid and if I missed that my apologies as I've been more interested in getting out on The Mule!

ps: ran an OFX4 prop yesterday day. Traction and grip on that SS sucker was like my studded Hakka's. Absolutely epic in big water. But I digress .......again.

Greg Guimond
11-17-2015, 04:06 PM
showed Brownie the el camino pic from above an he said that is the Jax show boat but he used his Lincoln to get it there. So I would say they used the show boat for the press shoot the wonder white and blue stripes.

I would also say that they knew with the success of the 233 that they needed multiple molds to maximize production. I would think they had 3-4 molds ready to go and it would make sense to pop 3 in all 3 colors red green and blue to start.

If you read the Brownie bite I posted they knew the formula ( punn intended that's Brownie's joke gotta give credit where credit is due) win the races in the fall and sell the **** out of them in the next year just like they did with the 233. so in oct nov they gear up for the upcoming sales year get the pics have the brochures and flyers made but it is early they only list the winns of the wyn-mil II and only mention the volvo as power for the 16 in the original literature but then in 1965 they re work it to include the Donzi wins and Fred's wins in all the brochures. on the fly I suspect they used what ever power they could get their hands on

also in thet Brownie bite he mentions getting the 200 at first was not easy between the start up of a new drive . plus I have to add the month long longshoremen's strike getting imports into the country was a much longer process than normal.

Matty, I always find it good to go back through the thread from the start. In doing so, I have a question around the stuff I highlighted in yellow above. Did you contact Brownie just last week? Or is this something that Alan Brown conveyed to you many years ago when he was active on this forum? The wording is confusing. Thanks.

mattyboy
11-17-2015, 05:07 PM
from last week posted the pic on FB

also it looks like the PB boating article used a pic taken during the aerial shoot that you posted after re-reading it and looking at all the pics now have to decide if the press boat with the dash stripe is the same boat as Wynne is driving during the side by side shoot with just a speedo added.

there is also a possibility that Boat is also the first hull prototype updated after initial testing

Greg Guimond
11-17-2015, 05:15 PM
Gotcha. Do you think that Brownie's personal recollection of the hull at the Jax boat show being the 3rd or 4th 16 built is accurate, or are you doubting him?

mattyboy
11-17-2015, 05:39 PM
Never Doubt Brownie I think Brownie's recollection is ON THE MONEY ! as do I think Mike A's is as well , I think what happened to the prototype hull one is the aq110/100 was changed and gussied up to a 110 aq 200 after donzi received them . think the pic of the first two 16s is one the money as well but not as labeled not sure who did that , I think the red boat is the prototype hull one and the green boat is hull two but still needs to be confirmed


ask your self why would the deck stripe go down the dash on one boat and not down on the other boat?

Greg Guimond
11-17-2015, 06:15 PM
Never Doubt Brownie I think Brownie's recollection is ON THE MONEY ! as do I think Mike A's is as well , I think what happened to the prototype hull one is the aq110/100 was changed and gussied up to a 110 aq 200 after donzi received them . think the pic of the first two 16s is one the money as well but not as labeled not sure who did that , I think the red boat is the prototype hull one and the green boat is hull two but still needs to be confirmed


ask your self why would the deck stripe go down the dash on one boat and not down on the other boat?

Well than there is a conundrum. You really need to find the date stamps on either the Press Kit shoot or the Wynne/Brown side by side arial photo. Better yet would be dates for both.

Your press photo 16 hull has a red deck stripe correct? Brownie indicated that the Jax show boat had a blue deck stripe. How do you square that piece? Back then those 16 Ski Sporter's stripes were all done in the gel correct? Would have been a lot of work to re-gel an already built hull for the Jax show.

mattyboy
11-17-2015, 06:40 PM
Well than there is a conundrum. You really need to find the date stamps on either the Press Kit shoot or the Wynne/Brown side by side arial photo. Better yet would be dates for both.

no conundrum

Your press photo 16 hull has a red deck stripe correct?

no color has been established on the press boat

Brownie indicated that the Jax show boat had a blue deck stripe. How do you square that piece? Back then those 16 Ski Sporter's stripes were all done in the gel correct?

gel was standard but they did do a lot on the fly

Would have been a lot of work to re-gel an already built hull for the Jax show. who says this is the jax boat show???


how easy is it to paint a stripe on a 16 ?? there are some for sale here on this site right now that have painted stripes??


think about it why would you put stripes on the prototype ?? it was going to be used for testing, a pattern for interior and everything else you need to launch a new model boat . how easy would it be to put red stripes on an all white 16 might even explain why the stripe goes thru the dash things that make you go ummmmmmm?

I am not trying to find out the dates of the pics you posted someone must have proof that they are number 1 and 2 since they labeled the pic that way .

mattyboy
11-17-2015, 06:41 PM
sorry not sure why my answers wound up in the quote

mattyboy
11-18-2015, 07:50 AM
my point in all of this is hull 1( the Mike A story prototype) and what Greg has labeled hull 2 the (Jim Wynne boat ) are the same boat after a quick re-fit making what Greg labeled 1 now 2 Then 3 is the Brownie Jax show 16 . now hitting MAAAAANNNNY MOOTAAAAAAA

woobs
11-18-2015, 08:52 AM
... the same boat after a quick re-fit ...

That's an interesting theory. But, is there any evidence or proof of a refit other than visual differences that have been pointed out (that's not proof BTW)? Paperwork, stories from AB,MA,WW or others that were there maybe?

I don't understand why a company manufacturing new boats would take the time to re-fit an old test prototype, as opposed to presenting the latest, greatest and newest of their builds in any type of showcase for media publication or public consumption.

Greg, have you also made provision for the 16 that was sent to Shepherd boats in Canada? We know early in 1965 a set of 16 moulds was sent from Florida and that they were preceded by a complete boat for evaluation (before the deal signing), sales and PR purposes. The boat was most likely a 1964 build.

mattyboy
11-18-2015, 02:17 PM
not a far stretch at all they did take older boats back and resell them and re fit them it was a common practice with consignment and demo boats



the time line changes every day not a lot of supporting definitive documentation but more hypothesis than anything else . trying to nail down benchmarks with times and dates and the more I see no more than 6 boats popped before 1965 then all hell breaks loose

mattyboy
11-18-2015, 03:37 PM
ok more info

only the pics of the 2 16s is from 64 everything else is from 65 so the ads brochures and flyers have no place in the 1964 timeline.

woobs
11-18-2015, 04:42 PM
I can see re-furbs and re-fits after they have been in business for a while (and for resale only)... just not a new company. I also can't see anyone putting a worked over boat in a magazine, Ad, or in a boat show.... they would use new.

I tend to think Greg has a good line on this... 10 - ish boats.

mattyboy
11-18-2015, 07:16 PM
the refit would be to remove the old 100 and put a new 200 drive on the boat when it became available an obiviously they were hard to get cause they made 1 or 2 with the old 100 in dec of 64

Greg Guimond
11-18-2015, 10:13 PM
...............................

I showed the very first Volvo 200 drive on a 16' Donzi at the Jacksonville Boat Show in November 1964. Bill Steele and Joe Swift of Mercury offered me money and Ho's if I would swing by Lake X on the way home. No dice!

mattyboy
11-19-2015, 07:40 AM
the first 3 production donzi from Pics and Brownie from 1964 you can put the first two in any order that you like

white and red white and green white and blue all the colors that are available and published in 1965 we know the white and blue is hull 3 with the new aq200


the white and green boat is a standard donzi deck stripe no boot stripe which is an option you picked the color out of the three available the stripe and interior matched it is equipped with an interceptor eaton combo and as such came with the interceptor dash plate. Brownie at the wheel

the white and red boat is volvo powered ( as pictured it is an aq200 which I think was a repower to show case the new drive Woobs doesn't think so, this was done a lot with early boats when new more stronger power came by) Jim Wynne at the wheel it has the red stripe down thru the dash perhaps to make up for the lack of a dash plate provided by Volvo at the time, this boat has a speedo the pics of these two boats is also used in the Popular Boating test article.

to bad the author of that article didn't describe the two test boats more completely colors and power options of both boats.

the interior on all of these boats has square edges that are white where the sides that meet with the deck or hull are the same color white

no grab rails on any of these no clamshell vents

the white and blue is completed and taken to the Nov Jax show

sometime after these 3, comes the white and red Teknikens boat which has the same type interior but only a deck stripe and the stripe doesn't go down thru the dash it has a volvo dash plate it also has single thru hull it is volvo aq200 powered it may have been a complete unpowered boat rigged and powered in Sweden when it got there then Fred Darwick's boat

in May of 1965 delivery of a 16 is at 4 weeks at this time there are no unsold hulls and many have paid in full and not taken delivery of the boats, they are selling like hotcakes

we know that production of the 16 can be done in as little as 5 days start to finish but that pace is later than 65 but the avg is 2-3 weeks when teleflex owns Donzi and man power is added .

Also Donzi holds on to one or two of the first three as demo boats and are still around to appear in the 1965 sales brochures

So if I bought a 16 at the NOV Jax show when do you think I would have gotten it?

another thing to take into account the delivery of a Hornet or ST T in May of 65 was 12 weeks so the limited manpower at the factory also had to get a hornet built during this time when there are building 10-12 16 hulls and these are all new designs so there has to be a learning curve


but again really can't document a lot of this without having the hull in front of you or a bill of sale

woobs
11-19-2015, 08:15 AM
Actually, Woobs doesn't have a problem with a new drive going on a demo boat to update to current offering. The issue is with painting deck stripes, changing colours and re-furbing a demo boat for use in a boat show or photo shoot.

In the "count" this confuses the issue of 2 separate boats being counted as one. Also nobody has accounted for the boat that went to Shepherd. I am looking into details from the Shepherd end. I have located the person that has all the records and am in the process of gaining access to them.

Now, it's totally understandable that there is photographic record of the first couple of 1964 boats. However, there is no need to photo-document any others (Donzi had their press package and POS material) until, the next model year. In fact, if Fred Darwick did not win a race, chances are we would have no photo proof of this boat. So, my question is... how many more went out the door without photo proof?

While I think Greg has done a stellar job of accounting for the "class of '64" this is all bits and bobs of fact connected with conjecture. I don't think you can accurately account for ALL the boats. If Greg says 12 and has missed the Shepherd boat, that's 13 and then I think there's probably more that have gone to regular, non racer, non friend of Aronow, non high profile people/potential dealers that actually bought a 16 Donzi.

Given this uncertainty and the fact that there is no conclusive evidence one way or another, I'm happy with the GUESStimate of 10-12 boats +/- for 1964 production. Believe what you like... there's no proof.

Greg Guimond
11-19-2015, 10:38 AM
................. we know the white and blue is hull 3 with the new aq200

Matty, I told you this from the very beginning. My personal "1964 build time-line" write up (shown again below) also reflects that the Jacksonville show boat was probably the 3rd or 4th 16 Ski Sporter hull produced NOT the first. What did you find out there that forced you to agree with me? Can you post it up for all of us to share in?


November 15, 1964 - Living legend Allan Brown (now 81) as Sales Manager for the new Donzi Marine, brings Hull #4 (or 3) to the Jax boat show on 11/13/64 rigged with a Volvo/AQ200, the first 200 imported into the US market, but not the first Ski Sporter hull built as has been assumed by master blasters for decades. Boat is white with a blue deck stripe according to AB. No information on if it had a boot stripe or not.
Mr. K's team at Mercury (Bill Steele and Joe Swift) tries to bribe Brownie with money and ho's for a closer look at the brand new sandcast Aquamatic 200 technology at Lake X. Brown tells them to piss off.

Greg Guimond
11-19-2015, 10:42 AM
Greg, have you also made provision for the 16 that was sent to Shepherd boats in Canada? We know early in 1965 a set of 16 moulds was sent from Florida and that they were preceded by a complete boat for evaluation (before the deal signing), sales and PR purposes. The boat was most likely a 1964 build.

No, I had no idea that this took place woobs so that adds to the number of hulls built. I know you have done real research on Shepherd. If you have any time stamps on the Ski Sporter 16 evaluation boat that Don A sent up to Canada that would be really interesting. It's raining down here for the next few days so no boating for me. :garfield: I have completely neglected the Shepherd boys in my research over the past couple of years.

Rob M
11-19-2015, 11:53 AM
No, I had no idea that this took place woobs so that adds to the number of hulls built. I know you have done real research on Shepherd. If you have any time stamps on the Ski Sporter 16 evaluation boat that Don A sent up to Canada that would be really interesting. It's raining down here for the next few days so no boating for me. :garfield: I have completely neglected the Shepherd boys in my research over the past couple of years.

I spoke at length with a gentleman who had recently (re) purchased a Shepherd in Ontario. His story was that his boat was one of 3 boats built by Donzi but badged as Shepherds that were sent to Ontario at the same time for use in early promotional sales. I saw his boat - it was re-badged as Donzi and was consistent with an early build (no clam vents), thin lay-up etc. Woobs - you probably know the details on that story and can correct any potential inaccuracies in his story of three original Donzi built/Shepherd badged boats based on your own ongoing research of timelines. The past is murky....

woobs
11-19-2015, 01:20 PM
Jim Hahn Jr. is the son of the former owner of Shepherd Boats from 1959 to 1972 when the company was sold to Trojan Yachts. Donzis were made here under license during this time. (1965 -1972)

While he is now located in British Columbia, the family (Jim & his sister) still maintain a cottage in Muskoka. Jim told me that all the Shepherd records from those dates are there. Further, he has the original contract between Donzi & Shepherd, receipts, bills and other documentation directly related to the Donzi partnership. I will be meeting him when he returns to Ontario to pick up the documents at the cottage.

At the January 1965 Toronto International Boat Show there was a Donzi Ski Sporter on display in the Shepherd booth. The "deal" had only just been done and Shepherd production would not be up and running at this time. I believe the moulds did not arrive until much closer to spring. I can without a doubt say 1 boat brought to Canada was a 1964 build. (The other 2 boats came at a later date and one was an 18). This TIBS show boat MAY be the boat Rob M refers to.

Shepherd Donzis were still Donzis and branded as such. They had a Shepherd logo on the hull side with Canadian and USA stickers. All fittings and hardware came from the Florida shop as did the moulds.



8327483275
I do have another (and better) picture of a Donzi by Shepherd but, I'll have to find it. Also, it's not really relevant to this discussion.

Greg Guimond
11-20-2015, 07:00 AM
Jim Hahn Jr. is the son of the former owner of Shepherd Boats from 1959 to 1972. Donzis were made here under license during this time. At the January 1965 Toronto International Boat Show there was a Donzi Ski Sporter on display in the Shepherd booth. This TIBS show boat MAY be the boat Rob M refers to. Shepherd Donzis were still Donzis and branded as such.

woobs, do you happen to have the specific dates in January '65 of the Toronto Boat Show? The 55th Annual National Motor Boat Show in NYC where there were two 16's displayed was January 15 through 24 of 1965.

Rob M
11-20-2015, 07:46 AM
woobs, do you happen to have the specific dates in January '65 of the Toronto Boat Show? The 55th Annual National Motor Boat Show in NYC where there were two 16's displayed was January 15 through 24 of 1965.

Might be these dates....

woobs
11-20-2015, 08:07 AM
My notes said January... and I have a picture with the caption of "preview of the international boat show" dated Jan 1 1965. I assumed it was just prior to the show opening like a VIP night. But, obviously I'm mistaken as Rob clearly shows the dates in February. One of the NY show boats could have easily shipped up for the Toronto show. That actually makes sense unless the NY boats were spoken for... and nobody is in a rush to stock a boat in January.

I have e-mailed the TIBS to see if they have any archived photos/document/programs from the 1965 show.

Copyright : © Keystone Pictures USA (http://www.alamy.com/search/imageresults.aspx?cid=MHX5W4PFRHC4BYT3F9CQMVJPTUPW AN9CSMUD6Q2J8MXNMCQBZQRC4CSC39236MA3&name=Keystone+Pictures+USA&st=12&mode=0&comp=1) / Alamy Stock Photo
83286

mattyboy
11-20-2015, 11:50 AM
woobs

pretty neat finding stuff like

woobs
11-20-2015, 02:31 PM
pretty neat finding stuff like
I can't wait to dig through it all.... :)

mattyboy
11-20-2015, 06:23 PM
just a thought and maybe someone who works with gel can comment when shooting two color dark and light gel together don't they blurr or bleed a little on the borders of the two colors isn't that why Donzi used pinstriping on the deck stripes to hide it?

When and who (mfg'r) was the first to put contrasting gel colors together? two tone hulls come much later than 64 is it possible that all the early 16 left the hull one color white and got their color once they were out of the mold? If you are making all white 16s no need to number them they are all the same ?

could the two color gel have been done so well on the early boats that the talent or technique or materials at the start let them get a crisp clear line then later on they couldn't do it for lack of those three and needed pinstripes?? just a thought, Donzi did state all hulls wonder white in their sales literature for the 16


would it make sense that the stripes at the start were paint even the early solid dark color non white hulls which usually had a white or black stripe usually only black on the yellow and white on the solid blue green or red? some time 65-66 ish they start with white deck and solid hulls with a matching deck stripe.

what do we think is the earliest hull we know about (confirmed) with original condition defined an noted? is it Tomron's prototype?

mattyboy
11-21-2015, 09:23 AM
as this discussion progresses it will also give us some info on not only the timeline but info on the construction methods and materials.

I have for the last 10 years or so have accumulated a ton of fact fiction and opinion on the various Donzi models thru either research or restoration.

I do recall early discussions here by people in the know that the first 25 boats or so were Eatons and all of the early boats were white.

Then as I go thru all the articles and records I see some things that jive or fit in place

This is not really in the 64 timeline but it does support the Popular Boating test at Dinner Key in one of the first 3 original demo boat that had 100s of hours.

At the 1965 Miami Boat show Feb 19-24 1965 at Dinner Key Brownie meets and gives a demo ride to S. Paul Jones of Ohio Valley Yacht Sales Inc.
Jones on Feb 24 writes to Allen ( he spelled Brownie's name wrong) that he has lost his info on the boats and wants replacement pricing lists and order forms. He plans to return to Fla in March to tour the Plant and deliver an order . He wants to know what power is available as he knows the longshoremen's strike has delayed delivery on Volvo engines. Now some of the early early discussion here make sense that Eaton could become a staple for power in a boat designed for a volvo. It also jives that the demo boat was running a lot at Dinner Key.

as said before the earliest hulls we know about that we can confirm or document will help this along.

here is the Teknikens boat which Tomron now is restoring this is one of the very few color pics of an early boat. this shows the first interior layout that I pointed out earlier with the white edges Note this is also a 4 piece interior not the later 5 piece interior there is no relief cut for the cover strut. This style interior also appears in the side by side Brownie Wynne pics which in turn also wind up in the Popular Boating test . these boats have no handrail.

Notice the nice crisp line edges on the red stripe but on a later two tone hull pinstripes are needed

mattyboy
11-21-2015, 11:07 AM
Matty, I told you this from the very beginning. My personal "1964 build time-line" write up (shown again below) also reflects that the Jacksonville show boat was probably the 3rd or 4th 16 Ski Sporter hull produced NOT the first. What did you find out there that forced you to agree with me? Can you post it up for all of us to share in?

Greg cause you told me so and you must have that proof if you told me so , seriously I really Think Brownie is on the money there


I am of the belief that 3 hulls left the mold at around the same time the red one and the green one are run and tested while the blue one is getting fitted to take on the show tour so it gets a little more attention to details. could also mean they were waiting on an aq200 . or the side by side pics could have been taken not to shortly after the Jax show after they got a couple of the new aq200 . Brownie confirms the side by side pics are from 64 which makes sense in 65 Wynne and Aronow part ways. I also think that Fred's boat is an early one too without the rail and an aq100. Could Fred have bought the Mike A prototype test ride boat or vice versa Mike got a ride in it before fred got it?? it has the big DONZI on the side the earliest pictured hull I know of that has this style donzi on it ?

IF the timeline is proven to where over a dozen hulls are out in the world in 64 and a new franchise agreement with another boat builder is the works in the first 6 months of existence. I will gain a new admiration for Don's business saavy , tooling up to get the donzi script, interior and handrail all done in 64 quite a feat. the handrail which would be an ordered option in alum or SS and would have to be put on before the deck goes on.

Don was not really interested in production but more racing and development so the sale to Teleflex and the Shepard agreement make perfect sense in 65 . We know the big race boat was in the works and Don wasn't planning on giving it to anyone Formula or Donzi it would be another one of his startups . Going to really neat to hear the boardroom facts on the Shepard deal which has really not been explored.

another recollection I have is a discussion with Walt at the Dustoff we were talking to Dave Hartman of Hornet marine who gave Walt a picture of Walt and Dave's father in a race boat . Dave had one of the Hornet prototypes first one out of the mold he was having some issues he worked all night to get it to the docks the next morning . Walt said that brings back memories working all night to get a boat ready for a show. So I wouldn't be at all surprised if the NY or Toronto show boats were popped and finished in early Jan of 65 .

mattyboy
11-21-2015, 12:41 PM
Woobs

it just occurred to me reviewing all these pics some info that might help with your project history the 16 you have is an early one the eaton boats had a water scupper pickup in the bottom of the hull on the starboard side of the centerline towards the rear check to see if there is any sign of it that, might help with getting an idea what year it is

woobs
11-21-2015, 03:36 PM
...the eaton boats had a water scupper pickup in the bottom of the hull on the starboard side of the centerline towards the rear...

There is this... but it's on the port side?
83290

mattyboy
11-21-2015, 04:45 PM
All the ones I have seen where in the starboard side any sign this was a v drive?

woobs
11-21-2015, 05:28 PM
All the ones I have seen where in the starboard side any sign this was a v drive?


Nope. not a V drive :)
83291

Greg Guimond
11-21-2015, 05:36 PM
ok more info. only the pics of the 2 16s is from 64 everything else is from 65 so the ads brochures and flyers have no place in the 1964 timeline.


I think your reference to the "2 16s" being from 1964 is the black and white photo below signed by Alan Brown, correct?

On the rest of your sentence above, I'm not so sure I agree with you yet Matty. When you say everything else is from '65 which "brochures" and "advertisements" are you talking about specifically?

Greg Guimond
11-21-2015, 08:20 PM
just a thought and maybe someone who works with gel can comment when shooting two color dark and light gel together don't they blurr or bleed a little on the borders of the two colors isn't that why Donzi used pinstriping on the deck stripes to hide it? When and who (mfg'r) was the first to put contrasting gel colors together? two tone hulls come much later than 64 is it possible that all the early 16 left the hull one color white and got their color once they were out of the mold? If you are making all white 16s no need to number them they are all the same ?

could the two color gel have been done so well on the early boats that the talent or technique or materials at the start let them get a crisp clear line then later on they couldn't do it for lack of those three and needed pinstripes?? just a thought, Donzi did state all hulls wonder white in their sales literature for the 16

would it make sense that the stripes at the start were paint even the early solid dark color non white hulls which usually had a white or black stripe usually only black on the yellow and white on the solid blue green or red? some time 65-66 ish they start with white deck and solid hulls with a matching deck stripe.


For the 1964 builds I think you need to ask yourself why Frank Civitano would remember his Dad's 16 Ski Sporter as he described it being solid green. Do you doubt his recollection? Color gets applied in the mold unlike paint. The fact that the Donzi factory described all there 16' boats as Wonder White to me does not mean a lot as they would need to publish a standard. They were easily able to produce a one-off gelcoat job in grumble green with a lucan red stripe. I'm sure you know how to reach Frank C (aka Shanghied Again) so why not give him a ring and ask some more questions about his Dads 1964 Ski Sporter? Do the research.

Again, these are Franks comments below. Could he be mistaken and the hull was a 1965? Certainly possible but not probable. I'm going with Frank C's recollection of the hull being bought in 1964 from Don.


My Dad new Don well back in the old days when he used to be a builder. I wish I still had our 1st Green and Red striped Donzi 16 that Don talked my father into buying in 1964. She wasn't the fastest, but it was only the 4th or 5th made. He was a fun guy, that I remember. I was only 14 and the last time I seen him was when I was 17.

mattyboy
11-21-2015, 11:37 PM
Nope. not a V drive :)
83291


Woobs that may be a key my 16 and the eaton 16 pictured in TKOTBR and the Rudder test article the pick up is on the starboard side

I do recall something about Ford changing the lower cooling hose from one side to the other but I need to confirm the timeframe

mattyboy
11-21-2015, 11:51 PM
I think your reference to the "2 16s" being from 1964 is the black and white photo below signed by Alan Brown, correct?

On the rest of your sentence above, I'm not so sure I agree with you yet Matty. When you say everything else is from '65 which "brochures" and "advertisements" are you talking about specifically?

I contacted Brownie on social media posted some pics and asked him about the sales literature and the side by side pics

sorry I guess that doesn't count

Greg Guimond
11-22-2015, 07:16 AM
ok more info. only the pics of the 2 16s is from 64 everything else is from 65 so the ads brochures and flyers have no place in the 1964 timeline.


I think your reference to the "2 16s" being from 1964 is the black and white photo below signed by Alan Brown, correct? On the rest of your sentence above, I'm not so sure I agree with you yet Matty. When you say everything else is from '65 which "brochures" and "advertisements" are you talking about specifically?


I contacted Brownie on social media posted some pics and asked him about the sales literature and the side by side pics. sorry I guess that doesn't count

Matty, thank you. In creating this timeline I have found that precise language matters. I like to know any source/s whenever possible as I've spent the needed time to do the research. This is how I uncovered that the Jacksonville Ski Sporter 16 was NOT the first 16 hull built as you had thought for over a decade. Now let's both get back to playing nice.

Moving on, with Brownie telling you on Face Bonk that the black and white and color photos of him driving the Ski Sporter with the Eaton drive (l personally labeled it #1 in the color pic) and Jim Wynn driving the Ski Sporter with the Volvo 200 drive (#2 in the color pic) was taken in 1964 we can further narrow down the three photos below to having been taken in the 4th Quarter of 1964. Either October, November, or December.

mattyboy
11-22-2015, 07:19 AM
Woobs

the rh lh change in water pumps was in 1970 so that's not a lead for you sorry, an eaton for sure, if i find anything else I'll let you know

edit could this have been a smaller interceptor?? the 200ci 120 hp 6cyl ???

woobs
11-22-2015, 08:50 AM
Woobs

the rh lh change in water pumps was in 1970 so that's not a lead for you sorry, an eaton for sure, if i find anything else I'll let you know

edit could this have been a smaller interceptor?? the 200ci 120 hp 6cyl ???

Matty, thanks for looking that up. I'm pretty sure it was the V8 due to the dual exhaust holes in the transom. Is it possible that things were relocated from really early builds to just early builds as they learned through production?

mattyboy
11-22-2015, 09:32 AM
Matty, thanks for looking that up. I'm pretty sure it was the V8 due to the dual exhaust holes in the transom. Is it possible that things were relocated from really early builds to just early builds as they learned through production?


not sure I have never really had a chance to work on the front end of an interceptor i know they had their own front end setup and I guess it would not be all that hard to plumb the hose over to the right side. I know the eaton by volvos and the volvos the water comes from the right side

mattyboy
11-23-2015, 08:59 AM
Matty, thanks for looking that up. I'm pretty sure it was the V8 due to the dual exhaust holes in the transom. Is it possible that things were relocated from really early builds to just early builds as they learned through production?


Woobs

thought about this a little more and I think there are some possibilities.


1. could be as simple as "Hey knucklehead your other right" port is port but your right or left is all a matter of your perspective.

2. I have seen larger Ford interceptors that have 90 deg elbows to port . maybe they were trying to standardize on where to drill holes in the bottom of the boat your location would work for an I/O and a v drive not sure maybe we will find out one day
BTW yours looks to have a wood pad for the fixture I don't seem to recall that on my 67 all I remember is the valve on it that I could never reach

Greg Guimond
11-25-2015, 09:32 PM
ok more info, only the pics of the 2 16s is from 64 everything else is from 65 so the ads brochures and flyers have no place in the 1964 timeline.


I think your reference to the "2 16s" being from 1964 is the black and white photo below signed by Alan Brown, correct? On the rest of your sentence above, I'm not so sure I agree with you yet Matty. When you say everything else is from '65 which "brochures" and "advertisements" are you talking about specifically?


I contacted Brownie on social media posted some pics and asked him about the sales literature and the side by side pics. sorry I guess that doesn't count

I have done a lot of boating this week with The Mule, but finally got around to digging back into my archive to continue the 1964 Ski Sporter Timeline.

Both of the ads below reflect a 1964 hull. One ad is from December, 1964, and then, the same magazine runs an ad in January, 1965. Both of these pieces are sales literature and what is very interesting is the fact that one ad highlights the upcoming "New York Boat Show" that starts on January 15, 1965. A fair amount of effort went into the production of these two pieces no doubt. The pictures would clearly have been taken in 1964. Also take note that in one month's time Don A decided to raise the public price of the 16 Ski Sporter model by $100.

If magazines back then were delivered to the subscriber on the first day of the issues month, that would make the December issue of Motor Boating arrive in the readers mailbox on November 30, 1964.
Before that, it would have taken say 30 days to get the issue actually put together so the Donzi factory would have had to give it's photos and copy for the ad of the 16 to Motor Boating by October 30, 1964

This proves that even with there heavy ocean race schedule, Donzi was geared up to promote 16 Ski Sporter's as early as October, 1964.

mattyboy
11-27-2015, 09:42 AM
I have done a lot of boating this week with The Mule, but finally got around to digging back into my archive to continue the 1964 Ski Sporter Timeline.

Both of the ads below reflect a 1964 hull. One ad is from December, 1964, and then, the same magazine runs an ad in January, 1965. Both of these pieces are sales literature and what is very interesting is the fact that one ad highlights the upcoming "New York Boat Show" that starts on January 15, 1965. A fair amount of effort went into the production of these two pieces no doubt. The pictures would clearly have been taken in 1964. Also take note that in one month's time Don A decided to raise the public price of the 16 Ski Sporter model by $100.

If magazines back then were delivered to the subscriber on the first day of the issues month, that would make the December issue of Motor Boating arrive in the readers mailbox on November 30, 1964.
Before that, it would have taken say 30 days to get the issue actually put together so the Donzi factory would have had to give it's photos and copy for the ad of the 16 to Motor Boating by October 30, 1964

This proves that even with there heavy ocean race schedule, Donzi was geared up to promote 16 Ski Sporter's as early as October, 1964.

Interesting so how long would it have taken donzi to get the bw press photos done? if it takes 30 days to get a magazine in print how long would it take to get the bw and white glossy's ?? these BW ads feature a 16 with an aq200 so they have to be of the Brownie show boat.

production on the aq100 drive stopped in 1963 and production on the aq200 drive started in 1963 how long it took to go thru on hand stock of the aq100 and to ramp up production and inventories state side on the aq200 who knows? but the aq 200 drive is produced in 1963 and used on the aq180 v8 engine package which was only in production for 1 year 1963 1964 very surprised this motor and drive package never took off 15 more hp than the interceptor and an aq200 drive which is bullet proof so much stronger than an eaton

Greg Guimond
11-28-2015, 10:39 AM
Hmmmmm............

So just to be clear Matty, you think that these three pictures below are of the exact same boat AND you think the boat is the one Brownie took to the Jacksonville boat show? Brownie's Jax 16 had a blue deck stripe.

Greg Guimond
11-28-2015, 03:13 PM
The Jacksonville boat show's first day was Friday, November 13, 1964.

In the "Exhibit A" photo above, if I back into the advertisements production for the December 1964 issue of the magazine, the photo would have to have been taken around October 15, 1964

mattyboy
11-29-2015, 08:21 AM
The Jacksonville boat show was November 13, 1964.

In the "Exhibit A" photo above, if I back into the advertisements production for the December 1964 issue of the magazine, the photo would have to have been taken around October 15, 1964


the pics in your 3 exhibits are the same that appeared in the BW glossy

as I have said before these BW glossy's are the same pics there were 4 or 5 of them I can only seem to find two on my home pc they showed the 16 bottom, the top side without the cover, the top side with the cover and zip out, and on the trailer and with the 64 el camino

here are the bottom shot and the top side shot with the cover and zip out the only thing I can prove on the 16 in this shot is it has a aq200 and it came before the red and white Tekniken's Magazine boat. the bottom on the 16 in these pics has long inner strakes the Tekniken's boat doesn't

Greg Guimond
11-29-2015, 08:29 AM
.
Yep, I have all those photos. So do you think that this boat is the same boat that Brownie dragged up to the Jax boat show that Friday the 13th?
.

mattyboy
11-29-2015, 08:48 AM
.
Yep, I have all those photos. So do you think that this boat is the same boat that Brownie dragged up to the Jax boat show that Friday the 13th?
.

not sure as of yet

pretty sure only one 16 was used and appears in all of the early ads and press photos appears in the first brochure which came around in early 65

the only difference I see between that boat and the boat that Jim Wynne is in in the side by side shots is the speedo they both have the dash stripe and the aq200. I would think that Donzi had no photographer on their staff that any pics taken would be done by their PR company. Once the shots are taken I would imagine getting the magazine or newspaper flats out to the publishers was the job one. Job two would be to get the brochure layouts done and off to the printer. Brownie confirms he didn't have the first 4 page 16 brochure in Jax.

So back in 64 how long did it take to develop the film, get the typeset and logo letterhead all into a magazine or newspaper flat with pics?

Greg Guimond
11-29-2015, 08:51 AM
not sure as of yet

So back in 64 how long did it take to develop the film, get the typeset and logo letterhead all into a magazine or newspaper flat with pics?

That would not take long. Maximum two weeks to accomplish this end to end. It was not like they needed the photo in hand to start to write copy. They would know what physical size the photo would be in advance, and then just plug it in to the layout and ship it to Motorboating by November 1, for the magazines December issue.

At the absolute earliest, figure the photo shoot and copy would have been done between October 1, and October 15, 1964 then mailed off to the folks at the Magazine.

mattyboy
11-30-2015, 08:37 AM
the font , wording and layout all look consistent with future releases and I would say that ad came complete from the PR Co. less the Donzi breakthrough headline which was done by the magazine.

so no one from Fla can give any info on the No. Miami Beach 62 thingy?? some kind of postal zone/ward???

again in all of this no mention about the availability of the ford eaton combo

mattyboy
11-30-2015, 08:51 AM
I think I forgot two boats to make it an even dozen ...............


The Muncey 16 that was given as a gift

and Sam Ballingers 16, white with a blue deck stripe and blue waterline stripe

1964 Donzi Ski Sporter,

Unmolested, and as it came from the factory
Hull DM988 (#4?), 47 hours on Hobbs meter
Power is 165hp Ford V-8 interceptor, I/O drive is Eaton unit, Engine Runs Great, as does Eaton drive
Have owned for 10 years and used 6 times , Cushions good not new. Needs plastic cover for rear light.
Trailer in Good shape.



Price $11,000.00 obo
Contact Ballinger@resolutelaw.com
Cell 813-401-9018http://www.donzi.net/forums/skypec2c://r/204813-401-9018 (9am-5pm EST


The Muncey 16 had no floor vent a sign of being a much later build

Sam's 16 is a VERY EARLY ONE FOR SURE AND IT IS IN GREAT SHAPE AND WELL CARED FOR but some clues can been seen in the pics that those are not the original colors and some work has been done over it's lifetime.

Greg Guimond
11-30-2015, 09:06 AM
The Muncey 16 had no floor vent a sign of being a much later build

Sam's 16 is a VERY EARLY ONE FOR SURE AND IT IS IN GREAT SHAPE AND WELL CARED FOR but some clues can been seen in the pics that those are not the original colors and some work has been done over it's lifetime.


I agree, the Muncey boat is off the list of candidates.

Sam Ballinger seems to be the only guy with a potential '64 build that also has DM988 as a HIN to identify the hull. How does DM988 square with records?

mattyboy
11-30-2015, 09:17 AM
I agree, the Muncey boat is off the list of candidates.

Sam Ballinger seems to be the only guy with a potential '64 build that also has DM988 as a HIN to identify the hull. How does DM988 square with records?


Greg it doesn't unless you believe that there was time travel or being able to see the future. In 1964 there are no HINS the HIN doesn't happen until 1972 that number was probably given to DMV when Sam bought the boat 10 yrs ago or if the boat changed hands post 1972. I am not up on Fla reg laws they might be a title state prior to that and it could be a title number but that number doesn't jive with any known HIN format or known records.

But that said the boat is a VERY EARLY ONE FOR SURE IT IS IN GREAT SHAPE it could be a 64 or a VERY EARLY 65 it COULD ALSO BE POSSIBLE THAT THIS BOAT IS ALREADY ON YOUR LIST but had it colors changed

Greg Guimond
11-30-2015, 09:33 AM
I agree with that as well, Matty. I had asked Sam to climb in the boat and look and see if there were any grease pencil markings under the deck when he first put the boat up for sale. He was a good older guy and happy to oblige. There was nothing under there so the DM988 is just a number that got stuffed into DMV as you say. I do think, however, that Sam's boat was a 1964 build so I am going to add it to the list.

Matty, you simply must track down Frank Civitano next. His Dad's old boat is a big piece of the 1964 build puzzle. Not only would he rack his brain on the Grumble Green solid color with Lucan Red deck stripe but I guarantee that he would remember exactly what drive was on the back. I know you can find anyone in the Donzi eco-system. Make Pearson go knock on his door in South Jersey. Send a pack of 1964 sniffing dogs to his yard. I lost track of Frank after I got spit out of my 16 a couple years back and was jacked on painkillers for way toooooooo long.

All that I have in my old notes is that Frank C (aka Shanghied Again) is alive and he is living somewhere in Southern New Jersey. Below is his post ...........



My Dad new Don well back in the old days when he used to be a builder. I wish I still had our 1st Green and Red striped Donzi 16 that Don talked my father into buying in 1964. She wasn't the fastest, but it was only the 4th or 5th made. He was a fun guy, that I remember. I was only 14 and the last time I seen him was when I was 17.

mattyboy
11-30-2015, 10:51 AM
Greg

what thread is the quote you have from Frank from???

mattyboy
11-30-2015, 02:59 PM
June 15, 1964 – Waltman Walters refines, re-draws, and documents the stability rails (or lifting strakes) for the 16 Ski Sporter hull bottom for the now operational Donzi



Greg

where does this drawing show the inner lifting strakes?

mattyboy
12-01-2015, 08:01 AM
some names you may want to research Greg

Jim Hardie Miami Herald

Sal Maugeri Photographer

Greg Guimond
12-01-2015, 10:07 AM
Greg, what thread is the quote you have from Frank from???



June 15, 1964 – Waltman Walters refines, re-draws, and documents the stability rails (or lifting strakes) for the 16 Ski Sporter hull bottom for the now operational Donzi


Greg, where does this drawing show the inner lifting strakes?


some names you may want to research Greg.......Jim Hardie Miami Herald, Sal Maugeri Photographer

I have the exact thread from Frank Civitano in my archives but your task Matty is to track him down live and have a chat about his Grumble Green '64. I never used the word "inner" when referring to the drawings.
.
Inner is your word. The lifting strakes are clearly reflected in Walts drawing. Yes, I already have information in my archive on both Jim and Sal. Sal is a well known guy btw. Jim, not so much but was cool in others ways.

mattyboy
12-01-2015, 11:54 AM
I have the exact thread from Frank Civitano in my archives but your task Matty is to track him down live and have a chat about his Grumble Green '64. I never used the word "inner" when referring to the drawings.
.
Inner is your word. The lifting strakes are clearly reflected in Walts drawing. Yes, I already have information in my archive on both Jim and Sal. Sal is a well known guy btw. Jim, not so much but was cool in others ways.


Greg

why can't you answer a simple question, what thread is that from It sounds like a thread where they are talking about Don and it may give us some more info. You really are starting to rub me the wrong way you bitch and moan about me scanning stuff and yet you won't answer a simple question?? yeah not feeling the love

I mention Sal cause he took the pictures of the 16s ( brownie and wynne)and John Crouse had gotten his library when Sal passed If the library can be found it may have some dates on the pics

Jim wrote an article on Don late 63 very early 64 for the Miami Herald's outdoor section in the time frame that Formula was on it's way out and Donzi was coming about. I can't find the articlle so maybe you have it in your archive. That article may shed some light.

mattyboy
12-02-2015, 08:30 AM
some more reading for those newer members BIG BAD DONZI is Mike Aronow

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?34372-Classic-Question

Greg Guimond
12-02-2015, 09:15 AM
...................................

mattyboy
12-02-2015, 09:45 AM
Greg your point???that's Eddie Mayhugh's boat

http://www.donzi.net/registry/hull.php?id=34

Greg Guimond
12-02-2015, 10:32 AM
There was no point. I was just adding non 1964 junk just like you had in the post before me. One reason the '64 builds have never gotten wrestled to the ground is because there are always ad hoc distractions that take focus away. Matty, I know that you have a lot of true interest in this stuff so I'm going to give you a pass on your earlier comment. Just one pass though, thank you :)

Now back to the matter at hand. John Crouse was actually Don Aronow's PR Guy. When Sal M died, John was chosen to guard the treasure trove of race boat pictures Sal had taken. John, I believe, contracted alzheimers and before he passed away he chose a very well regarded individual to store the photos. Yes, I know who that is, but there is no sense in disclosing it because there will be no chance to review the collection which is in the 1,000's.

The thread with Frank C in it has zero to add btw other than Frank's comment about the green 1964. What is important is that there are very, very few people still alive who can add clarity to the first boats built in 1964. Knocky House's wife passed away last month for example. Frank C though is alive, and as you know far better than me he was deeply involved in Donzi for many years. He also holds a very unique connection to Don Aronow because Aronow created all his wealth initially as a residential home builder in New Jersey. Frank Civitano's father knew Don A personally as his Dad was also a builder in New Jersey at the same time. Some folks thought that Don A's murder was in some way connected to the New Jersey mob and Don's spectacular success as a builder. That was quickly shown to be false. He left New Jersey very quickly but totally square with the mob. I hold a useless connection to Don as I bought my first 16 in Sheepshead Bay where he was raised. He also (along with Doc Magoon) consulted on the rebuild of The Mule so that is why I decided to get in on the car motor '64 builds and set the record as straight as possible. Btw Doc Magoon gave the eulogy at Aronow's funeral so there is another guy you can talk to.

Frank Civitano Jr is probably 70'ish now and evidently has been a life long resident of southern New Jersey and a life long performance boating guy. In addition to his Pop's Grumble Green 16 he probably has a BUNCH of gems hidden away in his brain on '64 Donzi stuff. One thing for sure is he'll remember what drive was on the back. For the record, I personally believe 100% that what he comments on below is totally accurate. One big reason I believe it (well there actually is two) is that the heir to the Kleenex Tissue fortune, Jim Kimberly, was a guy who was in love with the color green. He was also a great friend of Don Aronow's in addition to being a skilled womanizer like Don.

I can easily see him saying ....... "Don, make one of those little guys Green just like my Hornet" with a Remy in one hand and a stacked blonde on the other.



My Dad new Don well back in the old days when he used to be a builder. I wish I still had our 1st Green and Red striped Donzi 16 that Don talked my father into buying in 1964. She wasn't the fastest, but it was only the 4th or 5th made. He was a fun guy, that I remember. I was only 14 and the last time I seen him was when I was 17.

mattyboy
12-02-2015, 01:25 PM
There was no point. I was just adding non 1964 junk just like you had in the post before me. One reason the '64 builds have never gotten wrestled to the ground is because there are always ad hoc distractions that take focus away. Matty, I know that you have a lot of true interest in this stuff so I'm going to give you a pass on your earlier comment. Just one pass though, thank you :)

Now back to the matter at hand. John Crouse was actually Don Aronow's PR Guy. When Sal M died, John was chosen to guard the treasure trove of race boat pictures Sal had taken. John, I believe, contracted alzheimers and before he passed away he chose a very well regarded individual to store the photos. Yes, I know who that is, but there is no sense in disclosing it because there will be no chance to review the collection which is in the 1,000's.

The thread with Frank C in it has zero to add btw other than Frank's comment about the green 1964. What is important is that there are very, very few people still alive who can add clarity to the first boats built in 1964. Knocky House's wife passed away last month for example. Frank C though is alive, and as you know far better than me he was deeply involved in Donzi for many years. He also holds a very unique connection to Don Aronow because Aronow created all his wealth initially as a residential home builder in New Jersey. Frank Civitano's father knew Don A personally as his Dad was also a builder in New Jersey at the same time. Some folks thought that Don A's murder was in some way connected to the New Jersey mob and Don's spectacular success as a builder. That was quickly shown to be false. He left New Jersey very quickly but totally square with the mob. I hold a useless connection to Don as I bought my first 16 in Sheepshead Bay where he was raised. He also (along with Doc Magoon) consulted on the rebuild of The Mule so that is why I decided to get in on the car motor '64 builds and set the record as straight as possible. Btw Doc Magoon gave the eulogy at Aronow's funeral so there is another guy you can talk to.

Frank Civitano Jr is probably 70'ish now and evidently has been a life long resident of southern New Jersey and a life long performance boating guy. In addition to his Pop's Grumble Green 16 he probably has a BUNCH of gems hidden away in his brain on '64 Donzi stuff. One thing for sure is he'll remember what drive was on the back. For the record, I personally believe 100% that what he comments on below is totally accurate. One big reason I believe it (well there actually is two) is that the heir to the Kleenex Tissue fortune, Jim Kimberly, was a guy who was in love with the color green. He was also a great friend of Don Aronow's in addition to being a skilled womanizer like Don.

I can easily see him saying ....... "Don, make one of those little guys Green just like my Hornet" with a Remy in one hand and a stacked blonde on the other.





Greg the question still stands I would like to read the thread can you point me to the thread? sorry i thought the thread I posted with Mike may be relevant since that is the time frame we are looking at . gotta love being given tasks and passes :mad:

Greg Guimond
12-02-2015, 02:56 PM
Sure thing and yes I like to delegate :yes: The title of the thread is "Who has met Don?" and it is from 2003 I believe and on this board.

Greg Guimond
12-02-2015, 03:23 PM
Another event (Matty touched on this) and that plays a role in what power and drives were/could be used on the 1964 Dirty Dozen 16s is the International Longshoremen's Strike. That strike started on October 1, 1964 and involved 53,000 dock workers. It covered all the Eastern sea board ports and would go on for months. Fred Darwick asked for the new AQ200 drive for his race boat but Don A and Jim Wynne could not get him one even though Don knew that Fast Freddy was going to campaign the boat. Instead Fred and Judy had to use the AQ100 drive which were plentiful in the US.

Morgan's Cloud
12-02-2015, 04:10 PM
Sure thing and yes I like to delegate :yes: The title of the thread is "Who has met Don?" and it is from 2003 I believe and on this board.


Ooh , ooh , (hand flies up in the air ) me , me . I did ! And went for a boat ride with him . Also met Jim Wynne and a few other notables too now that I think of it .

OK , back to your regular programming . :biggrin.:

mattyboy
12-03-2015, 07:48 AM
Another event (Matty touched on this) and that plays a role in what power and drives were/could be used on the 1964 Dirty Dozen 16s is the International Longshoremen's Strike. That strike started on October 1, 1964 and involved 53,000 dock workers. It covered all the Eastern sea board ports and would go on for months. Fred Darwick asked for the new AQ200 drive for his race boat but Don A and Jim Wynne could not get him one even though Don knew that Fast Freddy was going to campaign the boat. Instead Fred and Judy had to use the AQ100 drive which were plentiful in the US.

Looks like you have a pipeline to Fred

That is great info so Fred actually ordered his boat not bought a previously built model
Can he give a time frame from order to delivery
Also does he know of any older 16s selling at Mt Dora in the last 10-15 years

Greg Guimond
12-03-2015, 03:29 PM
Looks like you have a pipeline to Fred. That is great info so Fred actually ordered his boat not bought a previously built model. Can he give a time frame from order to delivery. Also does he know of any older 16s selling at Mt Dora in the last 10-15 years

I have built up reasonable access to about 10 people on the 1964's. woobs has the Shepard clan all to himself. I am very selective on my questions to any of one of my contacts because to me it's interesting, to them it's annoying. We do know with 100% certainty that Fred Darwick took delivery of his 1964 16 Ski Sporter on December 10, 1964 and then promptly went and won the 9 Hour Championship on January 2, 1965. The Mt Dora question is not really relevant to the 1964 build timeline so that is for another thread. Now, on the "order to delivery" time frame, how would that help us? I'm not trying to be a wize guy but I already have a very firm grasp of the boats that were built in 1964. I'm close to formally calling them Greg's Dirty Dozen, but not quite there yet as I have two pieces of info being unearthed and boating keeps getting in my way.

mattyboy
12-03-2015, 03:50 PM
I have built up reasonable access to about 10 people on the 1964's. woobs has the Shepard clan all to himself. I am very selective on my questions to any of one of my contacts because to me it's interesting, to them it's annoying. We do know with 100% certainty that Fred Darwick took delivery of his 1964 16 Ski Sporter on December 10, 1964 and then promptly went and won the 9 Hour Championship on January 2, 1965. The Mt Dora question is not really relevant to the 1964 build timeline so that is for another thread. Now, on the "order to delivery" time frame, how would that help us? I'm not trying to be a wize guy but I already have a very firm grasp of the boats that were built in 1964. I'm close to formally calling them Greg's Dirty Dozen, but not quite there yet as I have two pieces of info being unearthed and boating keeps getting in my way.

looking fwd to your findings

woobs
12-03-2015, 04:56 PM
looking fwd to your findings

+1



:popcorn:

Greg Guimond
12-03-2015, 05:18 PM
looking fwd to your findings


+1


woobs, I may not have this correct but didn't you uncover that Don Aronow had built a grumble green 16 in '64 or am I mistaken?

woobs
12-03-2015, 07:26 PM
Sorry Greg, not a fact from me...

Greg Guimond
12-04-2015, 07:13 AM
Bummer woobs. Matty, are you able to access Walt Walters?

mattyboy
12-04-2015, 07:21 AM
I have built up reasonable access to about 10 people on the 1964's. woobs has the Shepard clan all to himself. I am very selective on my questions to any of one of my contacts because to me it's interesting, to them it's annoying. We do know with 100% certainty that Fred Darwick took delivery of his 1964 16 Ski Sporter on December 10, 1964 and then promptly went and won the 9 Hour Championship on January 2, 1965. The Mt Dora question is not really relevant to the 1964 build timeline so that is for another thread. Now, on the "order to delivery" time frame, how would that help us? I'm not trying to be a wize guy but I already have a very firm grasp of the boats that were built in 1964. I'm close to formally calling them Greg's Dirty Dozen, but not quite there yet as I have two pieces of info being unearthed and boating keeps getting in my way.

Greg you don't think the order to delivery time doesn't play a big part if the production timeline of 64???? Really?

Ok I will take your word that the Dora boat has no part of the timeline you must have it in hand

Greg Guimond
12-04-2015, 07:27 AM
Greg you don't think the order to delivery time doesn't play a big part if the production timeline of 64???? Really?

Ok I will take your word that the Dora boat has no part of the timeline you must have it in hand

Matty, as I said in my post I'm not trying to be a wize guy. Would you mind explaining how "order to delivery time" plays a part in 1964? I'd really appreciate it as I don't really understand ........yet

mattyboy
12-04-2015, 08:11 AM
Matty, as I said in my post I'm not trying to be a wize guy. Would you mind explaining how "order to delivery time" plays a part in 1964? I'd really appreciate it as I don't really understand ........yet

It is simple I paid for a boat today when do I get my boat. This would give a benchmark for production time and also a ballpark on production capacity. In a previous post you mentioned that Fred asked for an aq200 on his 16 so he ordered his boat and didn't buy one off the lot so to speak. So you know when he got the boat any idea when he ordered it?

I would also think that a special order might take a bit longer

Judging by written reports Donzi had quite a back log to open up 65 with I would also think they had boats paid for in 64 that got delivered in 65

mattyboy
12-04-2015, 08:20 AM
I do have some interest in this timeline but really only has it relates to the entire 16 timeline

As I have said we know more today than we did yesterday I have been researching Donzi Classic things for close to 15 years now. We have discovered many things and have documented production methods and changes in several models

Some of the things brought to light in this discussion that I am now trying to track down

The strakes

The changes made to the interior

Among other things like paint or gel


And in all of this something's that have been said years ago by people in the know have been given substantiation

Greg Guimond
12-04-2015, 09:01 AM
Ok, I now understand. Your interest is more "overall".

Perhaps we look at it this way Matty. We all know (100% fact) that there was at least one 16 Ski Sporter present in the booth at the NY show which started January 15, 1965 to the public. I have worked shows as a kid and you need to be there two days in advance to get your stuff set up so that means January 13 arrival on the UWS Manhattan. How long does it take to drag a few boats to NYC from Florida? Say three days, so they left Miami on January 10. That allows for zero cushion if they hit a snowstorm which makes no sense to me as the NY Show was a BIG one but who cares for now. The boat/s they brought would have been pulled from the mold in 1964. If they pulled the 16 on New Years eve that gives them 10 days to get everything 100% correct and then hit the road on January 10th. Well, actually 9 days as aint nobody in that crowd working on New Years Day hung over! They now have 9 days to rig it. The 16 would have been perfect so someone could buy it right then and there off the floor. This NY Show boat would have probably been the 11th 16 Ski Sporter ever built and the last of 1964. If woobs get's anything on Shepard that may ID the 12th.

I'm running The Mule this weekend so I'll think more on the stuff while ice boating.

mattyboy
12-04-2015, 09:11 AM
Greg
I have seen a show boat from Don purchased right off the floor it was far from perfect in fact it looked hurried and rushed so I would take the perfect thing with a grain of salt

mattyboy
12-05-2015, 09:10 AM
as this time line unfolds it will also reveal some info on general production methods and other developments going on at the factory at the time.It always goes to say once an early one is found it can be examined and documented depending on how "UN-Molested" it is. That is the only way to confirm info.

let's look at the 16 interior on the first examples shown in the exhibit photos in this thread.

The drivers seat is the folding capt chair style not what we see later with the deep bucket. This standard in 64 and 65 and pretty much standard for a few years after. the seat was two tone the sides were white and the seat surface was colored to match the lounge seat and the stripe selected.

The lounge seating seats were two tone white bottom and edges the edges were flat this is also a 4 piece interior. the seat surface was tuck and roll pleats but the sides were not. These could be massed produced and place in a bulk stocking order to be ready for the sales boom of the new 16 they were white with either blue green or red. this interior is different from what we know as the "Bilt-Rite" interior which were rounded edges and the tuck and roll went thru all the edges and 5 pieces. At this point I do not know who did the early interior it could have been Bilt Rite just have not found out yet. The Bilt Rite interior also features cut outs for the cover hardware the early two tone ones do not.

this type interior is seen in all of the early published"test" articles PB, Teknikens and Rudder as well as the Donzi BW literature and PR material as well as the first 4 page brochure on the 16 in 1965.

Some data points.

the first true deep bucket is seen in the new 18 2+3 which is touted for it's unique seating for the time two buckets up front not a bench or back to back seating that is normally seen in 1965. The interior on the new 18 shows the tuck and roll thru the edges and thru the deep buckets and the back seats. This interior is mono-toned only one color.

If a 16 hull and deck where to be a solid color other than white the early two tone interior would need to be changed to be solid all one color to match the stripe. This would mean either ordering and early style flat edge interior in the stripe color sans the white bottom or in the case of a white stripe sans the color top. OR a new interior would need to be created.

The first examples I have seen on a non white mono toned hull with a contrasting stripe are The Cover shot/ A&F all red with with stripe 16 with Don A at the wheel, Dr. Oskar Trost on Lake Constance at the wheel of a dark colored hull with white deck stripe no boot stripe and solid white interior, Then the all red white stripe white interior( possibly the above A&F boat) and an all yellow 16 with brown stripe brown interior That graced the windows of A&F in the summer of '65. all of these are tuck and roll no flat edges

So it looks like when they introduced the 18 which was usually a non white hull they used that style tuck and roll interior on the 16 as well except for the deep bucket.


So in earlier discussions here by people in the know it was mentioned that all the early boats were white with colored stripes and that the first 25 or so eaton boats makes perfect sense now with what we have uncovered .

I am sure a ton of orders came in in late 64 early 65 leading to the backlog

woobs
12-05-2015, 09:50 AM
So, the first solid colour hull/deck with Eaton drive started production when in 1965?

(and to clarify, none in 1964... right)

mattyboy
12-05-2015, 10:28 AM
So, the first solid colour hull/deck with Eaton drive started production when in 1965?

(and to clarify, none in 1964... right)

The earliest photographs I have seen are from 1965 of a 16, and the Donzi with first solid color hull I can prove with a date in a color pic is 007 also '65

Greg seems to have the timeline well in hand when he posts it he may have photographic proof of a color hull 16 delivered in '64 and what color the interior was.


some more info the yellow brown A&F boat looks to be an interceptor eaton boat by the rigging the Red and white one looks have been De-rigged but judging by the exhaust it may have been an interceptor as well. the yellow one may have been de-rigged too so they could display a 17 boat in a retail window in NYC

Greg Guimond
12-05-2015, 11:05 AM
The earliest photographs I have seen are from 1965 of a 16, and the Donzi with first solid color hull I can prove with a date in a color pic is 007 also '65. Greg seems to have the timeline well in hand when he posts it he may have photographic proof of a color hull 16 delivered in '64 and what color the interior was.



So, the first solid colour hull/deck with Eaton drive started production when in 1965? (and to clarify, none in 1964... right)

Just to be clear guys on the topic of a solid color hull and deck. I do not have any photos of this as a 1964. On this particular piece of the puzzle for 1964 I am only going by the quote below from past board member Frank Civitano...............


My Dad new Don well back in the old days when he use to be a builder. I wish I still had our 1st Green and Red striped Donzi 16 that Don talked my father into buying in 1964. She wasn't the fastest but it was only the 4th or 5th made. He was a fun guy, that I remember. I was only 14 and the last time I seen him was when I was 17.
Now, Frank could have been mistaken and what he remembers actually happened in 1965 but my sense is that he is accurately referring to 1964. Look how specifically he remembers being 14 years old. The color could be Grumble Green with a Lord Lucan Red deck stripe. I would say that I am 70/30 in favor of the solid color hull being built in 1964 but I have never found or corresponded with Frank Civitano in any form or fashion. I'm sure he has an old photo of his Dad's Ski Sporter hidden away somewhere. Frank would be the only guy who could confirm or deny the 1964 build date. I believe he is still alive and if so would be 65 years old.

mattyboy
12-05-2015, 11:19 AM
we do know that with solid non white hulls the Donzi standard was to have the solid interior match the stripe. Grumble green and white and also grumble green and lucan red and i also think the red was called wineberry later in the early 70s was a pretty popular color combo Just say n20 has a friend with that color combo a 1970s something 16 . here is an early 18 2+3 triple hatch with that color combo Grumble green and Lucan red, this hull is one of the first 100 18s produced.

I do believe that a GG and LR 16 could have been ordered and paid for in 1964 but really think it would be delivered in 1965 due to the special nature of the construction method would take some time longer than normal . i would also say that the best time for someone in the NY tristate to buy a new 16 for the first time would be the NY show in 1965 and with the size of that show could generate a TON of orders leading to the backlog and production bulge in early 1965

Greg Guimond
12-05-2015, 12:41 PM
Don't forget Matty that Don A built an all green 16 hull for his son Michael. Is Michael Aronow still with us?

mattyboy
12-05-2015, 05:49 PM
Don't forget Matty that Don A built an all green 16 hull for his son Michael. Is Michael Aronow still with us?

He also built an all Pink ( Coral) one for his secretary but not in 64

mattyboy
12-05-2015, 10:45 PM
Hull 1 all white red stripes deck and boot stripe volvo aq200 the boat seen with Jim Wynne driving . this is probably a prototype drive with out standard rigging leaving no choice but to cut the gauges into the dash and the deck stripe is carried down thru the dash due to lack of a volvo dash plate

Hull 2 all white green deck stripe only ford interceptor eaton kick up spin up seen with Brownie driving next to Jim

Hull 3 white blue stripes volvo aq 200 Jax show boat

This is confirmed info on hull numbers from photos and Allan Brown




now trying to confirm that hull 1 is the bw press photo and brochure boat then the timeline will be defined more precisely

Greg Guimond
12-06-2015, 08:57 AM
Don't forget Matty that Don A built an all green 16 hull for his son Michael. Is Michael Aronow still with us?


He also built an all Pink (Coral) one for his secretary but not in 64

Yes, but the Michael Aronow 16 had one of the Volvo 110/100 "Hot Edition's" installed in it. This special motor/drive combination was primarily a 1964 offering but could have drifted into very early 1965.
Matty, do you know much about these? I'm thinking that if Mike Aronow is still with us, that the Grumble Green solid colored hull with the Lucan Red stripe, could have been built for Mike in 1964 but then sold to Frank Civitano's Dad, Don A's friend. I guess that means there are actually two people who would know 100% and could comment. Hmmmmm.



My Dad new Don well back in the old days when he use to be a builder. I wish I still had our 1st Green and Red striped Donzi 16 that Don talked my father into buying in 1964. She wasn't the fastest but it was only the 4th or 5th made. He was a fun guy, that I remember. I was only 14 and the last time I seen him was when I was 17.

mattyboy
12-06-2015, 09:18 AM
Note the pictures in this thread of the two side by side 16 ( Brownie Wynne) that have been edited to show hull numbers are wrong the red and white one is hull 1

Greg Guimond
12-06-2015, 10:44 AM
Hull 1 all white red stripes deck and boot stripe volvo aq200 the boat seen with Jim Wynne driving . this is probably a prototype drive with out standard rigging leaving no choice but to cut the gauges into the dash and the deck stripe is carried down thru the dash due to lack of a volvo dash plate

Hull 2 all white green deck stripe only ford interceptor eaton kick up spin up seen with Brownie driving next to Jim

Hull 3 white blue stripes volvo aq 200 Jax show boat

This is confirmed info on hull numbers from photos and Allan Brown

Yep, I had confirmed that the 11/13/64 Jacksonville show boat was either #3 or #4 at the very start of this thread so that was off the table after it being called the first hull for a decade.
Now, the other two hulls make sense given Brownie had handwritten same on the B+W photo below. Also, given the date of the Jax show and the fact it was the first production AQ200 drive ever, that would tell you that both the black and white and color photo below would obviously have to have been shot prior to the race which was the weekend before the Jax show. So likely before November 1, 1964.

I have never seen anyone comment on an AQ200 "prototype" in the 10 years I have been around this forum so that is very interesting. Curious, did Brownie comment to you yesterday directly about the prototype nature of the AQ200 drive on the boat Jim Wynne is piloting in the photo below, or is that your personal assumption Matty?

mattyboy
12-06-2015, 11:08 AM
Yep, I had confirmed that the 11/13/64 Jacksonville show boat was either #3 or #4 at the very start of this thread so that was off the table after it being called the first hull for a decade. Now, the other two hulls make sense given Brownie had handwritten same on the B+W photo below.

I have never seen anyone comment on an AQ200 "prototype" in the 10 years I have been around so that is very interesting. Curious, did Brownie comment to you yesterday directly about the prototype nature of the AQ200 drive on the boat Jim Wynne is piloting in the photo below, or is that your personal assumption Matty?

He confirmed that the red and white one is hull one that's it from a picture posted to him on social media .

But in that picture it has an early aq200 drive on it . the aq 200 production start is sometime in 1963 release dates in the US not sure . This drive is on the first hull which I think comes out early and testing is done during this testing issues arise( Strakes). this drive is not seen in public and when the show boat comes out that aq200 is the first aq200 seen in public in the US. The boat pictured in the BW sales literature shows 99% identical to the Wynne number 1 boat. the picture of it on the lift is very early in the production run as Formulas being finished are in the background and no other of the dirty dozen or other Donzi can be seen. June design drawings show an aq200 and short strakes so the issues must have been discovered sometimes prior to that

so 1 2 and 3 are confirmed all white with #1 red, #2 green and #3 blue stripes


Note if hull one is found it will have long strakes any hulls documented after that will give the time frame for the design change.

working on hull 4 Sam's boat early info has the 260 block being cast in the end of June 1964 but no info on final Ford assembly then Eaton assembly and sale. That timeframe is uncertain and it is common that the previous year's motors go in the next year model boats.

Greg what info do you have what you think is hull 4 in your archive?

Greg Guimond
12-06-2015, 11:17 AM
Checking that .................

Greg Guimond
12-06-2015, 11:31 AM
I'll look more later as I'm going out on the boat now but here is one photo that Samuel Ballinger of Tampa sent me of under the deck of his '64 boat. Not exactly the clearest grease markings. I'll scrub my drives tonight.

mattyboy
12-06-2015, 11:43 AM
I had asked Sam to climb in the boat and look and see if there were any grease pencil markings under the deck when he first put the boat up for sale. He was a good older guy and happy to oblige. There was nothing under there so the DM988 is just a number that got stuffed into DMV as you say.



don't think that is anything but grease or dirt should have asked him for the interceptor serial number

I am only calling this hull 4 cause it is the next boat that can be documented in the timeline where it finally comes to rest in that timeline remains to be seen.

early boat with a grab rail let's look at the grab rail as a defining time mark it would put this boat after hull 3 and after Mike A's test ride

Morgan's Cloud
12-06-2015, 12:25 PM
I'll look more later as I'm going out on the boat now but here is one photo that Samuel Ballinger of Tampa sent me of under the deck of his '64 boat. Not exactly the clearest grease markings. I'll scrub my drives tonight.

Those marks could almost be anything , but what I find most interesting is what appears to be chop strand glass clearly visible.
I've never seen any Donzi classic of any vintage with that stuff visible . (Of course it would have been used somewhere in the construction , but not seen . )

Greg Guimond
12-06-2015, 05:49 PM
Found a couple more photos after a great afternoon on the water with a sunny 54 degrees. One pic is a close-up of that backside of Sam B's 16 dash, the other is the front. If you blow up the photo and look closely you can see that the Christina Blue deck stripe looks to run down the dash. At least that is what I see but it might be playing tricks on me. The blue stripe seems to be hidden under a piece of tape/cloth when it hits the dash.

mattyboy
12-07-2015, 07:50 AM
Found a couple more photos after a great afternoon on the water with a sunny 54 degrees. One pic is a close-up of that backside of Sam B's 16 dash, the other is the front. If you blow up the photo and look closely you can see that the Christina Blue deck stripe looks to run down the dash. At least that is what I see but it might be playing tricks on me. The blue stripe seems to be hidden under a piece of tape/cloth when it hits the dash.

Greg

that's not Christina blue that's Barbados blue the lighter blue they used later in 65 -66 it is also not the original stripe the entire boat has been painted and the newer classic stripe parameters were used the stripe is to wide and the boot stripe is tapered. the new stripe does appear to go down the dash . I was contacted by a LGDCC member interested in the boat to help decipher serial numbers. the boat as been looked at so I am not really going to say a lot more on this boat trying not to interfere the block was cast june 29 1964 . But as I have said before that doesn't mean the boat is a 64 you have other time points final ford assembly, then eaton assembly, sale , then installation . It is very common for previous years engines installed in the current model year.

this is Christina blue

Greg now your task is to discover if this boat has be double dipped in your dirty dozen count it is not the original color and very well could be in your count under a different color. you will also find that some of the info i have given that you say is non pertinent to this time line is VERY pertinent . But hey your have a firm grasp on all of this WTF do I know

Greg Guimond
12-07-2015, 07:55 AM
Greg

that's not Christina blue that's Barbados blue the lighter blue they used later in 65 -66 it is also not the original stripe the entire boat has been painted and the newer classic stripe parameters were used the stripe is to wide and the boot stripe is tapered. the new stripe does appear to go down the dash . I was contacted by a LGDCC member interested in the boat to help decipher serial numbers. the boat as been looked at so I am not really going to say a lot more on this boat trying not to interfere the block was cast june 29 1964 . But as I have said before that doesn't mean the boat is a 64 you have other time points final ford assembly, then eaton assembly, sale , then installation . It is very common for previous years engines installed in the current model year.

this is Christina blue

Greg now your task is to discover if this boat has be double dipped in your dirty dozen count it is not the original color and very well could be in your count under a different color. you will also find that some of the info i have given that you say is non pertinent to this time line is VERY pertinent . But hey your have a firm grasp on all of this WTF do I know

Looks like it's off the list master blaster. 11 and counting. Now go look up Frank C, my back hurts from carrying you along this path :)

Greg Guimond
12-07-2015, 08:02 AM
Not sure btw why you want to turn this into a spat session either, but hey.........let's play :bighug:

mattyboy
12-07-2015, 08:10 AM
Looks like it's off the list master blaster. 11 and counting. Now go look up Frank C, my back hurts from carrying you along this path :)


Greg that's not what I am saying the boat is a very early 16 with a grab rail. It's not confirmed if it IS or IS NOT a 64 . I am pretty busy working on this example think maybe you should try and find Frank. Sorry I am such a burden to this discussion

Greg Guimond
12-07-2015, 08:37 AM
Greg that's not what I am saying the boat is a very early 16 with a grab rail. It's not confirmed if it IS or IS NOT a 64 . I am pretty busy working on this example think maybe you should try and find Frank. Sorry I am such a burden to this discussion

Matty, you asked me to post what pictures I had of Sam's 16 to see if there were any clues. I was happy to do that. Then, once I do, you ridicule me. Go back and read your own posts. Do you want to have a constructive conversation about something or do you want to keep poking each other to the point where nothing get's accomplished for the boats that you love? You can't have it both ways. So, for the second time .......... I lay out the olive branch and apologize in front of the 10 people who are left on this board if I have done anything to you. You owe me the same.

woobs
12-07-2015, 09:12 AM
Stripes into the dash/gauge panel can be added too. On this early boat, it was clearly added.


83381

mattyboy
12-07-2015, 03:39 PM
Matty, you asked me to post what pictures I had of Sam's 16 to see if there were any clues. I was happy to do that. Then, once I do, you ridicule me. Go back and read your own posts. Do you want to have a constructive conversation about something or do you want to keep poking each other to the point where nothing get's accomplished for the boats that you love? You can't have it both ways. So, for the second time .......... I lay out the olive branch and apologize in front of the 10 people who are left on this board if I have done anything to you. You owe me the same.

Greg

please re read your posts the nicknames don't go over well??? sorry if i have offended you done over and out

Greg Guimond
12-07-2015, 07:38 PM
Thank you for saying sorry. Your apology is accepted. Now off to U2 on HBO.

Greg Guimond
12-12-2015, 07:59 AM
What a great concert by U2 in Paris. Only outdone by the incredible boating weather here this week. It looks like the first six of the Dirty Dozen are shaping up as ............

1. White with Red deck stripe - Jim Wynne driving - long strakes and shown with AQ200 drive in picture but drive is assumed to be a "Prototype" 200 although no confirmation on that
2. White with Green deck stripe - Alan Brown pictured driving - Eaton flip up drive
3. Jacksonville Boat Show boat - White with Blue stripe - first "US Production" AQ200 public release drive. Show was 11/13/64
4. Sam Ballinger boat - grab rail and Eaton motor and drive. Motor block casting date shows June, 29 1964
5. Frank Civitano solid green boat. Motor and drive as yet unknown. Built initially for son Michael Aronow but sold to Frank's Dad, a personal friend of Don A's.
6. Fred Darwick race boat - grab rail and "Special Hot Volvo" performance version 110 motor and special race 100 lower unit. Invoice dated 12/10/1964

woobs
12-12-2015, 09:46 AM
Looks good Greg.:yes:

Greg Guimond
12-13-2015, 08:07 PM
Logged 121 miles today. 68 degrees and dead calm. Can't figure it out, I have never seen Long Island Sound that flat. In any event, while doing research for Donzi's powered by OB's I dug fairly deep into a specific Hornet 19 that was powered by twin wackers and owned/raced by Bob Cox and Ed Joyce on numerous occasions. The Hornet had never been discovered and no one new anything about it. In turn, that led me to Ted Drum, descendant of Bob Cox. That led Ted to tell me that his deceased wife, as a teenager, had driven a 16 into one of her Dad's Lauderdale Marine docks way, way back. I thought all that through, and then checked my notes to confirm that Bob Cox was a dealer for Formula Boats before he moved with Don to become a Donzi dealer and he was.

With that I'm inserting the Bob Cox/Ed Joyce Ski Sporter into the first 6 list ahead of the Darwick boat. Cox was also the guy who was at the Santana Marine test and ran the second 16. More on Cox and Ed Joyce later.

Morgan's Cloud
12-14-2015, 06:15 AM
I've heard about the O/B Hornet before but I thought it was made for Jerry Langer . Was there more than one maybe ?

Greg Guimond
12-14-2015, 08:37 AM
I've heard about the O/B Hornet before but I thought it was made for Jerry Langer . Was there more than one maybe ?

..
Yep MC, I discovered there were two. Jerry Langer had one which he often raced with Davey Johnson. Jerry was a well known racer and also an Evinrude dealer. The second seems to have belonged to Bob Cox which he raced with Ed Joyce. Jerry had triples on his Hornet, Bob and Ed had twin Johnson's. It took a trip over to the UK to nail down the Cox Hornet 19 wacker.

Earlier in this thread someone commented that the original line drawings for the 16 showed a "200" drive. That did not sound right to me given how difficult it was to get the new AQ200.
.
I decided to drop a "100" Volvo drive next to the Walt Walters line drawings to compare the two below ....................

mattyboy
12-14-2015, 04:12 PM
..


Earlier in this thread someone commented that the original line drawings for the 16 showed a "200" drive. That did not sound right to me given how difficult it was to get the new AQ200.
.
I decided to drop a "100" Volvo drive next to the Walt Walters line drawings to compare the two below ....................


I commented on that Greg from my notes when i met Walt at mystic and reviewed the actual drawings , the plan view from july of 64 shows an aq 200 the stability rail drawing from june of 64 shows an aq100, the drives are easy to tell apart the aq200 has no exposed control cables or tiller the aq 100 does. the blue line drawing looks like that came from the sales brochure yes that is an aq100 that pic in the brochure was probably taken from the original lines and offset drawings which show an aq100 as well

production start on the aq200 is sometime in 1963 but as I said before state side availability who knows when they were readily available? I am sure they weren't to easy to find.


so anyone want to guess how hard it would be put a grab rail on a 16 with the deck on?

Greg Guimond
12-14-2015, 06:32 PM
I commented on that Greg from my notes when i met Walt at mystic and reviewed the actual drawings , the plan view from july of 64 shows an aq 200 the stability rail drawing from june of 64 shows an aq100, the drives are easy to tell apart the aq200 has no exposed control cables or tiller the aq 100 does. the blue line drawing looks like that came from the sales brochure yes that is an aq100 that pic in the brochure was probably taken from the original lines and offset drawings which show an aq100 as well

production start on the aq200 is sometime in 1963 but as I said before state side availability who knows when they were readily available? I am sure they weren't to easy to find.

Hmmm......that is interesting.

So Walt Walter's 16 drawing in June 1964 uses an AQ100 drive and then only one month later in July he substitutes the newer AQ200 drive. That tends to tell me that Jim Wynne, Walt and Don A were not able to get there hands on even a "prototype" AQ200 lower unit until July, 1964 even though Jim Wynne would have been the single most capable person in America of getting something new from Volvo. Do you agree that's about right? I don't think that Walt would have used the 200 in drawings unless he was very comfortable that Donzi could get one physically delivered to Miami.

mattyboy
12-15-2015, 09:15 AM
Hmmm......that is interesting.

So Walt Walter's 16 drawing in June 1964 uses an AQ100 drive and then only one month later in July he substitutes the newer AQ200 drive. That tends to tell me that Jim Wynne, Walt and Don A were not able to get there hands on even a "prototype" AQ200 lower unit until July, 1964 even though Jim Wynne would have been the single most capable person in America of getting something new from Volvo. Do you agree that's about right? I don't think that Walt would have used the 200 in drawings unless he was very comfortable that Donzi could get one physically delivered to Miami.


Greg I don't have enough info to agree or disagree on that. I am unfamiliar with the process of creating a technical line drawing in the 1960s
would Walt have drawn the drive by hand? or would a template from the mfg'r be used to trace the drive onto his line drawings of the hull. There must also be more tech drawings from Volvo like transom template and S dim. as they call it. Walt's line drawings are not for public consumption at the time .
The first 4 page 16 brochure shows an aq200 on the drawings on the first page but later in the brochure they have a reversed picture of the lines and offsets drawing that shows the aq100 .

still trying to nail down Ford production and eaton production timeframes from casting to final assembly .

Greg Guimond
12-15-2015, 09:25 PM
.
Here is the 4 page brochure for the 16. Forgive the bad merge of the 4 pages into one jpg.

This is the first "formal" piece of collateral for the 16 Ski Sporter and I think we agree that it was published in October, 1964. Very interesting Matty as you point out that BOTH the AQ100 and the AQ200 drives are shown. No one in America at that time except for Donzi would have picked up the fact that both drives were shown. Given the AQ200 is shown in an actual photo what this says to me is that your concept of a "Prototype" AQ200 being shipped to Jim Wynne before formal production and the brochure's creation makes sense, and probably would have shipped to him in Miami in August/September, in time to install it into Hull #1.

The only man still alive who could add a second validation to Alan Brown and possibly comment on the "Prototype" would be Walt Walters, now 84 years old. I have tried to contact him on a few occasions but no dice. The only guys who have met him in person are Bert and you Matty. I'm not sure it alters my timeline but there might be additional tidbits that could. It would certainly validate whether or not there was a "Prototype Early Release" AQ200 on the hull Jim Wynne is driving BEFORE that photo is taken that shows a production AQ200 on the back.
.

Greg Guimond
12-15-2015, 09:40 PM
I'm placing the Fred and Judy Darwick race 16 to slot #7 and David D. Ray's 1964 boat in slot #8 with the white with Blue stripe 16 powered by Volvo. :yes:

mattyboy
12-16-2015, 08:08 AM
.
Here is the 4 page brochure for the 16. Forgive the bad merge of the 4 pages into one jpg.

This is the first "formal" piece of collateral for the 16 Ski Sporter and I think we agree that it was published in October, 1964.
.


Greg

I do believe that the black and white photos used in that brochure were taken sometime in 1964 but the 4 page "color" brochure was not available for Brownie to take to the Jax show in Nov of 64 that I confirmed that with Brownie. So I would move the publish release date on that brochure to Dec 64 or later but I would imagine this was available for the NY show.

we know that some of the photos were incorporated in magazine and newspaper flats for ads in late 64. Again going back to 1964 I would say the process of getting something in print was quite longer than it is today I think more like months then weeks. The NY show is the first big show of the year so i would say the PR company first priority was press releases so the ads came first( like the one come see us at the NY show) then the show sales literature was next . Again it makes sense that laying out the brochure was done by hand so once they had portions/sections of the brochure done they could use those sections in the press ads then continue to work on the final brochure.

mattyboy
12-16-2015, 08:17 AM
Factoid the aq200 is put into production in 1963 and is used in the Volvo Penta AQ180 a gas powered V8 180 hp based on the Volvo B36( 3.56L 218 CI) motor this is an overseas offering only it was only available in 1963.

mattyboy
12-16-2015, 08:20 AM
1. White with Red deck stripe - Jim Wynne driving - long strakes and shown with AQ200 drive in picture but drive is assumed to be a "Prototype" 200 although no confirmation on that
2. White with Green deck stripe - Alan Brown pictured driving - Eaton flip up drive
3. Jacksonville Boat Show boat - White with Blue stripe - first "US Production" AQ200 public release drive. Show was 11/13/64
4. Sam Ballinger boat - grab rail and Eaton motor and drive. Motor block casting date shows June, 29 1964
5. Frank Civitano solid green boat. Motor and drive as yet unknown. Built initially for son Michael Aronow but sold to Frank's Dad, a personal friend of Don A's.
6. Fred Darwick race boat - grab rail and "Special Hot Volvo" performance version 110 motor and special race 100 lower unit. Invoice dated 12/10/1964


Greg
clarification on number 6 Fred's boat this is the 9 hr Miami winner it has a grab rail?

Greg Guimond
12-16-2015, 08:26 AM
Greg, clarification on number 6 Fred's boat this is the 9 hr Miami winner it has a grab rail?

That is correct. Darwick picked it up on December 10, 1964 and raced it January. In one picture it has a deck grab rail but I have to find the high res version.

Greg Guimond
12-16-2015, 08:34 AM
Here is the high res version of Fred's boat courtesy of .org BUT now, as I look at it, he has the later 17 number on it. That tells me that he may have added the grab rail. I don't have any high resolution pictures of the 11 boat and I can't tell from the photo if it has the grab rail on it.

mattyboy
12-16-2015, 08:35 AM
Greg

my eyes are not what they used to be and just got a new RX for my glases. I don't see a grab rail in either picture is it my eyes. The reason I asked is there are pictures of Fred or Posted by Fred of a few 16s some have a rail some don't in the color pics it looks like they were white with green and blue stripes. numbered either 11 17 or 17A

mattyboy
12-16-2015, 08:43 AM
there are differences in all the pics

some pics show a rail some don't, some show a boot stripe some don't are these pics confirmed of the same boat?

Greg Guimond
12-16-2015, 08:48 AM
there are differences in all the pics. some pics show a rail some don't, some show a boot stripe some don't


Yep, I'm now thinking that Fred added the grab rail at some point after he won the first 9 hour. He painted the stripe so don't factor that in. The hull I pictured is the same hull and same Volvo set-up used in both the '65 and '66 race. Same boat. Now, what's interesting is that he took delivery of the boat in December without a grab rail which means that the grab rail was not yet available until a little after that, correct?

Does that mean that in order to be a 1964 Ski Sporter 16 you could NOT have a grab rail?

mattyboy
12-16-2015, 09:04 AM
Yep, I'm now thinking that Fred added the grab rail at some point after he won the first 9 hour. He painted the stripe so don't factor that in. The hull I pictured is the same hull and same Volvo set-up used in both the '65 and '66 race. Same boat. Now, what's interesting is that he took delivery of the boat in December without a grab rail which means that the grab rail was not yet available until a little after that, correct?

Does that mean that in order to be a 1964 Ski Sporter 16 you could NOT have a grab rail?

I don't know do you think they could add a grab rail with the deck on, getting to that part of the 16 is EXTREMELY difficult the only way I have seen anyone get a hand in there is to get in the bilge along side the motor. my 16 had glass tabs for lack of a better term more like an easter egg put in that area it was not possible to get there from the inside. the end rail and front supports not a problem but the support right in the front of the end rail brackets is a PITA


here is a pic of the rail supports on a 16 that support directly in front of the rear end rail brackets is almost impossible to reach with the deck on

Greg Guimond
12-16-2015, 01:08 PM
.
I agree having owned several 16's that adding a grab rail would be a big f-in PITA to do. Having said that I guess anything could be done using a 7 year old to hold a nut. I've pressed our kids into duty on this stuff many times before. I once had our middle boy wedged in to my Ultra 23 when we were rigging it. It was hot as hell and he swelled up. I had to gingerly pull him out by his feet but we got him back out of there.

So this presents an interesting turn in the 1964 road. The first (3) boats built in 1964 don't have deck grab rails. Both Michael Aronow and Brownie comment on that. Brownie in fact says he was chucked out of a 16 twice because he did not have a rail to grab onto as a passenger.

1. White with Red deck stripe - Jim Wynne driving - No Deck Grab Rail
2. White with Green deck stripe - Alan Brown pictured driving - No Deck Grab Rail
3. Jacksonville Boat Show boat - White with Blue stripe. Show was 11/13/64 - No Deck Grab Rail
4. Sam Ballinger boat - Motor block casting date shows June, 29 1964 - Yes It Has a Deck Grab Rail
5. Frank Civitano solid green boat. Motor and drive as yet unknown. Deck Grab Rail Unknown
6. Bob Cox and Ed Joyce boat. Have not found photos yet. Deck Grab Rail Unknown
7. Fred Darwick race boat - "Special Hot Volvo" performance version and special race 100 lower unit. Invoice dated 12/10/1964. No Deck Grab Rail

mattyboy
12-16-2015, 03:02 PM
Greg
Fred's boat is the number 11 boat in the pics no rail, painted boot stripe correct?? the boat 17 and 17 A pictured are different boats looks like Fred's painted boot stripe is missing on both and 17A has a grab rail

mattyboy
12-16-2015, 03:40 PM
a little more on Ford casting numbers

time frames from block casting to final engine assembly at Ford were any where between 2 days and a week depending on the motor one thing that was happening in june of 64 Ford was asses and elbows getting 289s in the new ICONIC pony car the FORD MUSTANG. so the 260 windsor was approaching end of life

so a rough swag would be a block cast on June 29 1964 would reach final Ford assembly by July 4th

now one has to take another swag, on what the time frame would be Eaton ordering a motor delivery ( cross town in dearborne) then Eaton final assembly then Donzi order delivery( 188th st) and final installation.

Greg Guimond
12-16-2015, 04:34 PM
Greg..........Fred's boat is the number 11 boat in the pics no rail, painted boot stripe correct?? the boat 17 and 17 A pictured are different boats looks like Fred's painted boot stripe is missing on both and 17A has a grab rail

No, not correct. The # 11 boat and the # 17 boat are the same hull.

BUIZILLA
12-16-2015, 05:08 PM
a quick call to Fred would resolve the questions

he's easily reachable

mattyboy
12-16-2015, 07:12 PM
No, not correct. The # 11 boat and the # 17 boat are the same hull.

so the boot stripe was removed sometime between jan 65 #11 has a boot stripe and jan 66 17 doesn't have a boot stripe

Greg Guimond
12-16-2015, 08:38 PM
so the boot stripe was removed sometime between jan 65 #11 has a boot stripe and jan 66 17 doesn't have a boot stripe

Yes, that is exactly what Fred did. Fred and Judy raced the #11 boat and won there class in the 9 hour. Don A knew he would race it which is why he gave him a discount on the purchase of the boat. It had a green deck stripe and green boot stripe. Fred then campaigned the same exact boat in other races before removing the boot stripe and entering it into the January, 1966 race with the #17 on it. Many folks think the motor was the ticket to his success but the bigger part of the 16's winning ways in addition to Fred Darwick's pure driving ability was the Volvo 100 drive that he had. It was unique, different than other 100's.

I have several bits of data showing Darwick winning a variety of races with his Ski Sporter in my archive but that does not play a part in the 1964 build timeline as his first and only race in 1964 was the 9 hour. Ironically, when I researched that, it was actually run in 1965 as you will see if you re-read this thread from the start. January 2, 1965 to be exact.

Anyway, onward ................

Greg Guimond
12-16-2015, 08:41 PM
What, if anything, does this picture tell us or add to the 1964 discovery?

mattyboy
12-16-2015, 08:51 PM
What, if anything, does this picture tell us or add to the discovery?

from 1965

Greg Guimond
12-16-2015, 09:02 PM
a little more on Ford casting numbers

time frames from block casting to final engine assembly at Ford were any where between 2 days and a week depending on the motor one thing that was happening in june of 64 Ford was asses and elbows getting 289s in the new ICONIC pony car the FORD MUSTANG. so the 260 windsor was approaching end of life

so a rough swag would be a block cast on June 29 1964 would reach final Ford assembly by July 4th

now one has to take another swag, on what the time frame would be Eaton ordering a motor delivery ( cross town in dearborne) then Eaton final assembly then Donzi order delivery( 188th st) and final installation.

So the motor in Sam B's 16 would have from July 4th to weave it's way into an installed, fully rigged, and running Ski Sporter. That's 6 months and pretty much guarantees that his boat IS a true 1964 build. Six months is a ton of time from casting birth to first test run through Government Cut.

1. White with Red deck stripe - Jim Wynne driving - No Deck Grab Rail
2. White with Green deck stripe - Alan Brown pictured driving - No Deck Grab Rail
3. Jacksonville Boat Show boat - White with Blue stripe. Show was 11/13/64 - No Deck Grab Rail
4. Sam Ballinger boat - Motor block casting date shows June, 29 1964 - Yes It Has a Deck Grab Rail
5. Frank Civitano solid green boat. Motor and drive as yet unknown. Deck Grab Rail Unknown
6. Bob Cox and Ed Joyce boat. Have not found photos yet. Deck Grab Rail Unknown
7. Fred Darwick race boat - "Special Hot Volvo" performance version and special race 100 lower unit. Invoice dated 12/10/1964. No Deck Grab Rail

mattyboy
12-16-2015, 09:14 PM
So the motor in Sam B's 16 would have from July 4th to weave it's way into an installed, fully rigged, and running Ski Sporter. That's 6 months and pretty much guarantees that his boat IS a true 1964 build. Six months is a ton of time from casting birth to first test run through Government Cut.


it could be, but it is far from guaranteed from what I have seen on other forums it is very common that eaton motors were a year behind the boat model year they may have had large inventory on hand. it is an early one for sure from what I have seen and without knowing it's original configuration it may be tough to find a final place in the timeline . an eaton serial number would help track it down

mattyboy
12-18-2015, 08:16 PM
more info on this pic from july 1965 Rudder test article on the 16 written and tested by Hank Bowman Hank at wheel Ed Joyce passenger ( Ed was referred to a test associate in this article) test location port everglades new 1965 16 still in break in period white boat no boot stripe one of the original color deck stripe red green or blue( bw pics so I can't tell) 165 hp 260 ci eaton interceptor grab rail original square two tone white/color interior.


some points of interest eaton must have had a large inventory of 260 motors Ford dropped the 260 in the 1964 model year so here we have proof of a 1964 block motor in a 1965 boat .

also this boat has the original style interior which means at whatever time the boat was produced in 1965 they had not made change to the monochrome round tuck and roll interior

On a sad note Hank was killed shortly after in the next running of the miami 9hr race ( 1966) leading to the kill switch rule.

Greg Guimond
12-19-2015, 09:20 AM
Cool info Matty. Hank was a prolific writer it turns out. He covered almost all the well known events and was also very well respected as a very capable high speed pilot. His life ended far too soon and that race he was killed in was black flagged that day after the tragedy. The tethered "kill switch" was created the next week based on what people saw Hanks boat do to him. The following race weekend, factory boats all had kill switches installed.

Ed Joyce was a complete character and a lot younger than most of the guys he raced against (and with) back in that timeframe. He started as a mechanic at Bob Cox's newly created "Lauderdale Marine" (Donzi dealer in 1964) which is still in existence today with massive land holdings down there. Ed Joyce would go on to be GM of that operation for many years. He once ran a race boat of some sort from Florida to New York in friggin January. Guy must have had some serious cajones.

Greg Guimond
12-19-2015, 09:42 AM
Now on some of the details. I think the grab rail is rapidly becoming a "key identifier" for the 1964 builds. I asked Fred Darwick about this and he said that his first 16 did NOT have one, but his second 16 did have a deck rail. If you look back at the photos I posted, both the #11 and #17 boats are the SAME boat. However, the A-17 it turns out is a different boat of Fred's but was built in 1965. If we couple that with Matty's comment about many Ford blocks being in stock it might push Sam Ballingers boat off the list of 1964 builds. I have Sam's contact info somewhere, I'll see if I can dig it up and ask him who bought his 16. If he has that, we may be able to get a serial number off the Eaton drive to get a manufacture date. Long shot, but I'll try.

mattyboy
12-19-2015, 09:48 AM
So as I dig into this the grab rail is an option and would have to be ordered by the dealer as stated on the oct 65 price list

the two choices were a full cockpit grab rail in alum or SS. list/dealer net price of 60/45 for alum or 80/60 for SS the rail was made standard sometime after this when unsure.

so any 16 65 or earlier would need to be ordered with the rail.

Greg Guimond
12-19-2015, 10:12 AM
.............so any 16 65 or earlier would need to be ordered with the rail.

I'm thinking you need to word that a bit differently. I don't think a buyer even had the option of ordering a 16 with a grab rail at all in 1964. The grab rail was designed and manufactured ONLY in 1965 given it was price listed all the way out in October, 1965. This is my opinion, unless Frank Civitano's grumble green 16 can be validated as a 1964 build AND has a grab rail. We'll never know that for sure.

The other solid green boat was built for Michael Aronow but it was a different shade of solid green and it was built in 1965, not 1964 so that is off my 1964 timeline list.

mattyboy
12-19-2015, 12:22 PM
Looking back at the Teknikens boat it may be a 64 not 65 I would say it would have been built right after the June 64 rewrite of the spray rails by Walt and sent to Sweden to be rigged with the aq 200 there.
So I would say I am at 5 hulls and all white the color hulls come in 65 when the interior is re done

woobs
12-19-2015, 12:46 PM
So.... which 2 hulls went to the New York boat show opening January 15, 1965? And which one of those continued on to the Toronto boat show a couple weeks later or, was that yet another boat?

Morgan's Cloud
12-19-2015, 01:26 PM
Looking back at the Teknikens boat it may be a 64 not 65 I would say it would have been built right after the June 64 rewrite of the spray rails by Walt and sent to Sweden to be rigged with the aq 200 there.
So I would say I am at 5 hulls and all white the color hulls come in 65 when the interior is re done

That reminds me ... remember the barn find in Sweden that showed up for sale a while back that had a windscreen with the aerodynamics of a 24 cubic foot refrigerator on it ? Like it just rolled off the production line ? That one was surely a very early boat as well , but it might have been a different color than white .
I know it was discussed here somewhere . Might have been in the Donzis for sale section .

mattyboy
12-19-2015, 02:01 PM
MC

could be TOMRON Tomas Ronnberg has that one which is hull 141 or 146 and he also has the teknikens boat the teknikens boat he picked up over there the other was a US boat he had shipped to him.

Greg Guimond
12-19-2015, 06:51 PM
So.... which 2 hulls went to the New York boat show opening January 15, 1965? And which one of those continued on to the Toronto boat show a couple weeks later or, was that yet another boat?

I suspect you will gather that piece of information once you review the Shepherd Boat files :yes:

woobs
12-19-2015, 07:22 PM
Yes, I hope to. But, my contact lives in British Columbia (3000kms away) and the documents are at his cottage about an hour and a half from me. It will not be until next summer or, such time that he has available for us to meet there.

Greg Guimond
12-19-2015, 07:30 PM
Yes, I hope to. But, my contact lives in British Columbia (3000kms away) and the documents are at his cottage about an hour and a half from me. It will not be until next summer or, such time that he has available for us to meet there.

No rush. There aren't many folks left alive who can add info now so the papers may reveal something. I have never been able to get any photos of the NY Show 16's. The only reason I think there were two shown is because at some point in my research I ran across a tiny magazine blurb that referenced that. Of course, I can't locate it on my hard drives now but I remember it.

woobs
12-19-2015, 09:11 PM
I have contacted the Toronto International Boat Show office and asked for access to their archives. They have agreed but, they are elbow deep in the 2016 TIBS show at the moment (and 2 other shows shortly after). I am assured they have some photographs (and possibly more) from the 1965 show.

We'll see in a few months when the busy season is passed.

Greg Guimond
12-19-2015, 09:36 PM
I have contacted the Toronto International Boat Show office and asked for access to their archives. They have agreed but, they are elbow deep in the 2016 TIBS show at the moment (and 2 other shows shortly after). I am assured they have some photographs (and possibly more) from the 1965 show.

We'll see in a few months when the busy season is passed.

Could also be interesting. Time will tell.

Greg Guimond
12-19-2015, 09:36 PM
This is how I'm seeing the 1964 16 build line-up ...........

Hull 1. White with Red deck stripe and red water line stripe - Jim Wynne pictured driving - Mike Aronow took a test drive with Don. Drive assumed to be a Volvo Prototype - No Deck Grab Rail
Hull 2. White with Green deck stripe - Alan Brown pictured driving - Eaton drive - No Deck Grab Rail
Hull 3. Jacksonville Boat Show boat 11/13/1964 - White with Blue deck stripe and blue waterline stripe. Shown in press photograph behind El Camino. First Volvo AQ200 Production drive - No Deck Grab Rail
Hull 4. Teknikens Varld Magazine boat - White with Red deck stripe. New design "shortened" inner lifting strakes and single thru hull exhaust shown in photo - No Deck Grab Rail
Hull 5. Bob Cox and Ed Joyce Lauderdale Marine boat. Have not found photos yet but Cox was initially a Formula and then a Donzi dealer. Deck Grab Rail unknown
Hull 6. Frank Civitano's Dad's solid green boat. Frank claims purchase took place in 1964. Motor and drive as yet unknown. Deck Grab Rail Unknown
Hull 7. Fred Darwick race boat - White with Green deck stripe and green water line stripe. Special Hot Volvo performance version and special race 100 lower unit. Invoice dated 12/10/1964. No Deck Grab Rail
Hull 8. David D. Ray boat - White with Blue stripe. Volvo powered
Hull 9. Sam Ballinger boat - Motor block casting date shows June, 29 1964 - Eaton drive, exact date not yet known. Yes it has a Deck Grab Rail, could be the first rail
Hull 10. January 15, 1965 New York Boat Show - could have then continued North to the Shepherd boys?
Hull 11. Second New York Boat Show

mattyboy
12-20-2015, 08:21 AM
some thoughts

the 260 makes it into the 64 1/2 mustangs june of 64 and then is dropped the 65 model year starts in fall of 64

the 1964 eaton interceptor is rated at 160 hp the new 165 hp is added to the line up for the 65 model year

the eaton powernaut drive is not up to the power and torque the new windsor motors are going to throw at it they sign on as a distributor for the new volvo aq200 for 1965

200 210 and 225 235 271 hp are available from a FSB from 65 on , the 225 235 and 271 are mated to aq200s

mattyboy
12-20-2015, 09:58 AM
MC

do you mean this boat? this is TOMRON's boat sorry was wrong hull 136


also from TOMRON on this boat

"Hull number 16-136 is ordered July 6, 1965 and delivered July 21, 1965. Order # 199.
This boat is white with a red stripe and red trim, tinted windshield. Ford Interceptor 165 HP, Engine # GT90L526036 (this is a Ford 260, same as Mustang 1964 ˝ ) Eaton drive # 34008CA16L47.
Sold to: Ohio Valley Yacht Sales, Louisville, Kentucky
Delivered to: Raymond’s Marine. Jeffersonville, Indiana.
First Owner: S. Paul Jones. Louisville, KY
Second Owner: Me

things of interest:

the hand rail is ordered as an option so as of july 65 the handrail was not standard equipment

dating a build by the motor is now void here is a 65 with a 260 which was not made by ford in 65 so eaton must have done a stocking order to keep them in 260 motors for some time.

GT90L526036=

G carb 2 bbl
T= displacement 260 the 289 is W
90= reverse gear for drive 90 is an I/O
L= left hand rotation standard auto rotation
5= model year 1965
26036 = serial number

Greg Guimond
12-20-2015, 10:33 AM
things of interest--- the hand rail is ordered as an option so as of july 65 the handrail was not standard equipment. dating a build by the motor is now void here is a 65 with a 260 which was not made by ford in 65 so eaton must have done a stocking order to keep them in 260 motors for some time.


If dating a Ski Sporter by the 1964 casting date stamped into the motor it has installed is no longer valid, how about dating the boat by the serial number stamping on the Eaton drive?

Morgan's Cloud
12-20-2015, 11:04 AM
Yes Matty , that's the one . Haven't seen those pictures before though. I guess @ number 136 it sure isn't in the first 15 lineup but if you look at the sheer numbers of 16 produced it's still kind of special to have one of the first 150 .
Is it expected that at number 136 and July 1965 that it should have an Eaton unit ?

mattyboy
12-20-2015, 12:04 PM
If dating a Ski Sporter by the 1964 casting date stamped into the motor it has installed is no longer valid, how about dating the boat by the serial number stamping on the Eaton drive?

Greg
really not sure it can give a general timeframe but it looks like finding 64 stuff on a 65 is very common.

mattyboy
12-20-2015, 12:15 PM
Yes Matty , that's the one . Haven't seen those pictures before though. I guess @ number 136 it sure isn't in the first 15 lineup but if you look at the sheer numbers of 16 produced it's still kind of special to have one of the first 150 .
Is it expected that at number 136 and July 1965 that it should have an Eaton unit ?

Steve
as we dig into to this I have uncovered little tid bits that make sense now as to why they did things. at this point in donzi history july of 65 any V8 I/O would be an eaton mated to a 260 . The aq 200 is only mated to swedish blocks and in the US only 4 bangers in sweden they have a 180 hp version V8 based on their volvo truck engine . Eaton signs on to be a distributor for volvo late in 64 . Ford has changed the block and the rear end on the windsor for the 289 exactly in the same timeframe it drops the 260 so I would guess that eaton is developing a flex plate to mate the aq200 to a ford windsor. so in late 65 and early 66 you see the eaton badged volvo aq200. I am sure now eaton is not going to rework the powernaut to work on the newer 289 windsor seeing the aq200 is a far superior drive.

mattyboy
12-20-2015, 01:13 PM
1965 16 no rail new tuck and roll interior in all white to match the deck stripe driven by Dr. Oskar Trost on Lake Constance Germany

note hull 136 also has the traditional bilt rite style tuck and roll with rounded edges

hey how did he keep the hat on that is a real trick in a 16

Greg Guimond
12-20-2015, 06:01 PM
.
Word of the new 1964 Donzi 16 Ski Sporter's spread around the globe in a pre-tweet age. Here, folks in Australia provide some ink about the 16's shown at the January 15th New York Boat Show and call out 55mph.

Greg Guimond
12-20-2015, 06:08 PM
..... Eaton signs on to be a distributor for volvo late in 64 .....

Actually Matty, Eaton of Michigan signed on to be a Volvo marine distributor a year earlier, in December of 1963.

Greg Guimond
12-21-2015, 08:31 PM
Question for you Matty. How does the wonder white with Red deck stripe only 16 that was tested in the July 21, 1965 issue of Teknikens Varld fit then into the 1964 build timeline?


I don't think it does. I think it is a '65


Greg, TOMRON's boat is short straked and the deck stripe doesn't go thru the dash and has a volvo dash plate . it needs to be on it's way to sweden by december of 64 or it won't leave this country til some time in Feb of 65 the articles I have seen on the strike say the ports were hosed with backlog in some cases for several months. His boat is reviewed in teknikens in july of 65 and also ran in the 65 Gettingloppet which is also sometime in July this boat may be the prototype of the new bottom. My point with the strakes is the first one(s) had long ones like the press photo boat same with the deck stripe these are signs of being first.

I'm looking more closely at this particular hull with the shortened inner lifting strakes to place it firmly in the #4 slot. The Longshoreman's Eastern Seaboard strike began on October 1, 1964 and would get progressively worse in very short order. So TOMRON's first (Thomas Ronnberg) boat pictured below would need to be built in October, 1964 including the single through hull exhaust, then shipped from Miami to Sweden in November, 1964, and then stay in Sweden for 7 months unchanged until it was tested and photographed in Teknikens Varld magazine's July 1965 issue and also raced in the Gettlingloppet in July, 1965.

mattyboy
12-22-2015, 04:29 AM
Yeah agreed that is the first 16 short strakes hull 4 the test bed boat thru hull so exhaust will not interfere with hydrodynamics

So what happened stateside did they keep building long strakes boats or did they wait for results would they wait until oct to pop this boat from the mold when drawings are completed in June ? Could 4 be 1 and 1 be 2 and so on
No one will know until a tape is taken to a boat in the timeline

mattyboy
12-22-2015, 07:41 AM
Can someone with a short straked skisporter take a tape to the inner strake then take that measurement to the gunwale and then to the grab rail and then the cockpit

I think it falls just fwd of the first rail support

Thanks that might help ID long and short boats

Greg Guimond
12-22-2015, 08:05 AM
Yeah agreed that is the first 16 short strakes hull 4 the test bed boat thru hull so exhaust will not interfere with hydrodynamics

Ok, so 1964 Ski Sporter #4 on my build timeline is confirmed and still in existence I believe today in Sweden. What model drive is on #4 pictured below?

1964 Builds
Hull 1. White with Red deck stripe and red water line stripe - Jim Wynne pictured driving - Mike Aronow took a test drive with Don. Drive assumed to be a Volvo Prototype - No Deck Grab Rail
Hull 2. White with Green deck stripe - Alan Brown pictured driving - Eaton drive - No Deck Grab Rail
Hull 3. Jacksonville Boat Show boat 11/13/1964 - White with Blue deck stripe and blue waterline stripe. Shown in press photograph behind El Camino. First Volvo AQ200 Production drive - No Deck Grab Rail
Hull 4. Teknikens Varld Magazine boat - White with Red deck stripe. New design "shortened" inner lifting strakes and single thru hull exhaust shown in photo - No Deck Grab Rail
Hull 5. Bob Cox and Ed Joyce Lauderdale Marine boat. Have not found photos yet but Cox was initially a Formula and then a Donzi dealer. Deck Grab Rail unknown
Hull 6. Frank Civitano's Dad's solid green boat. Frank claims purchase took place in 1964. Motor and drive as yet unknown. Deck Grab Rail Unknown
Hull 7. Fred Darwick race boat - White with Green deck stripe and green water line stripe. Special Hot Volvo performance version and special race 100 lower unit. Invoice dated 12/10/1964. No Deck Grab Rail
Hull 8. David D. Ray boat - White with Blue stripe. Volvo powered
Hull 9. Sam Ballinger boat - Motor block casting date shows June, 29 1964 - Eaton drive, exact date not yet known. Yes it has a Deck Grab Rail, could be the first rail
Hull 10. January 15, 1965 New York Boat Show - could have then continued North to the Shepherd boys?
Hull 11. Second New York Boat Show Ski Sporter

*** Muncey 16??

Morgan's Cloud
12-22-2015, 11:56 AM
You know , sometimes I wonder if Don and the crew ever thought that the 16 was going to become the success / icon that it has.
At the time of its introduction the general public who had a bit of disposable income and were going to use it to buy a boat were of the mind that a boat had to do many things . Maybe not all of them really well , but at least a few of them .
I bet it wasn't just the red necks at the shows who looked at them and said ' What de h*ll is that thing ?'

Back then , who was going to drop a load of money (for that time period) into a boat that all it could do was go reasonably fast (for that time period) and make you feel good ?

What a success story . And still as gorgeous now as it was then !

Greg Guimond
12-22-2015, 10:04 PM
Factoid the aq200 is put into production in 1963 and is used in the Volvo Penta AQ180 a gas powered V8 180 hp based on the Volvo B36( 3.56L 218 CI) motor this is an overseas offering only it was only available in 1963.

Mostly correct Matty..............

The Volvo B36 V8 in 180hp Euro version was offered in 1963 and 1964. In marine garb it had an AQ200 drive behind it. Is this why you think that Hull #1 actually had a prototype 200 drive? Just to be more clear, if Jim, Walt and Don were able to source a "Euro Spec" 200 drive, would that not really be a production drive even though it was only available in Europe? Or, do you think that Volvo sent Jim W a slightly different 200 for the US market? Thus your terminology of prototype for hull #1

Greg Guimond
12-22-2015, 10:10 PM
You know, sometimes I wonder if Don and the crew ever thought that the 16 was going to become the success / icon that it has. What a success story. And still as gorgeous now as it was then !

So true MC. Now that they are being produced again, doesn't that make the 16 the longest running design in boating at 51 years?

The thing that I wonder about is why there is so little information out there about Dave Stirrat. Almost nothing as I have done my research. Strange.

Ghost
12-22-2015, 10:30 PM
I'm going to say it's impressive, but not the champ. Off the top of my head, the 13 foot Whaler almost has to be older, and in continuous production.

Morgan's Cloud
12-23-2015, 06:26 AM
Actually , the 13' Whaler was the first thing that came to mind too , but I don't think they've been made for a good while now.

Ghost
12-23-2015, 09:01 AM
HFS, they're not allowed to stop making that! Who told them they could stop!?

jl1962
12-23-2015, 10:57 AM
Boston Whaler still makes a 13' hull, but it is unrecognizable from the iconic boat we all grew up with.

Happily Metan Marine in Massachusetts DOES make a boat that looks exactly like the boat we all grew up with!

While we're talking deep V hulls and 13' Whalers - a shout out to Ray Hunt - the father of both.

mattyboy
12-23-2015, 02:13 PM
Frankly I am extremely disappointed in this group THE 13 WHALER?? yes Iconic great boat but what is this site dedicated to?? not one mention for the 18 classic the longest running production model in the donzi lineup 1965 til present with no void in production like the 16. it has 10 years on the 16 .

I just hope this oversight has not put you all on Santa's naughty list and you will find no bling or HP in your stockings. and you of all people Jay a proud 18 owner. ;) :P :) :rolleyes::biggrin.::worthy::shades::yes::biggrin. :


A Merry Christmas to all and a happy and healthy new year !

jl1962
12-23-2015, 03:05 PM
Matty-

Oh man what a screw up.
When you're right, you're right........:doh:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zc0BI7T1LA

Does this mean we have to start a 27 page thread on the 18?
Maybe next winter!

Happy Holidays - All

Greg Guimond
12-27-2015, 10:03 AM
Can someone with a short straked ski sporter take a tape to the inner strake then take that measurement to the gunwale and then to the grab rail and then the cockpit. I think it falls just fwd of the first rail support. Thanks that might help ID long and short boats

Intereresting ...........

Greg Guimond
12-27-2015, 10:13 AM
......... the eaton powernaut drive is not up to the power and torque the new windsor motors are going to throw at it they sign on as a distributor for the new volvo aq200 for 1965..............


............. production on the aq100 drive stopped in 1963 and production on the aq200 drive started in 1963 how long it took to go thru on hand stock of the aq100 and to ramp up production and inventories state side on the aq200 who knows?..............


Here is an early magazine advertisement for Eaton distributing Volvo 110 engine products in January of 1964, so the AQ100 drive probably did not stop in 1963. I'm thinking that Eaton must have formalized there commercial re-sale relationship with Volvo Sweden very late in 1963 around the 110 model and then continued on to the new drive in 1965. One note of interest in the ad though is it does NOT make any reference to the 100 drive, only the motor.