Donzi 16 Timeline - The Boats Built During 1964 [Archive] - Page 3

Greg Guimond

02-16-2016, 09:24 PM

I'm now thinking that when you review Scott Boldt's comment about two 16's being at the boat show, and Brownie saying one or two boats were at the show (one of which had a blue stripe) I'm thinking two 16' boats were there on January 14th, 1965. Donzi had fantastic PR momentum going into the show from there race success. They had the 19 there and why not have two 16's to "book end" that Hornet? There was no lack of money, it was the biggest show in the country by far, and this was the introduction of the 16 Ski Sporter to the world.

I also think that neither of these two boats got re-shipped up to Shepherd Canada as that boat is now shown as probably being solid yellow. I think that the Shepherd hull was shipped directly from Miami for the TIBS show as a separate event. The Donzi factory gave birth to the two 16's and the 19 Hornet in late 1964 and hustled there arses off to get all three rigged, ready, and on the road in time to be in NYC on January 13, 1965.

Also, I change my earlier opinion and now believe that both NYC 16's were 1964's.

Greg Guimond

02-19-2016, 05:38 PM

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As I continue to poke around a bit more for the history, I found out today that the 1965 National Powerboat Show in New York was actually a much bigger production that I had originally thought. It was four full floors and the doors opened to the venue on Monday January 11th instead of the 13th. That means that Donzi would have needed to be "in the house" at least a full day earlier than I had originally thought. That along with the bad weather cements the fact that the boats Donzi had at the New York Show were certainly 1964's as there were just not enough days to work with to completion if the hulls had popped out of the mold on January 2, 1965.

Ironically, one boat that had to wait for the doors to open was a big 'ol Shepherd from Canada as shown in the article below. Plenty of time at the show for Aronow and Shepherd to discuss there future biz relationship.
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Greg Guimond

02-19-2016, 05:44 PM

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The New York Show also ran much longer than I had thought at the start of the thread. It went right to Sunday January 24, 1965 so an absolute ton of exposure for Donzi and the Ski Sporter 16's that were in the booth..

Rob M

02-19-2016, 07:10 PM

How so? It neither confirms nor denies the possibility.
What is the date of the first known use of the grab rail?

This quote from Brownie's Bites on Powerboat nation.com may help shed a little light on the likely engine/drive and grab rail configuration of the earliest boats...

"Our demo 16’s had “Phony Cobras”, a 289 cu. In. Ford Interceptor of supposed 271 HP on Eaton “C” drives. That drive had a good idea, bad idea feature. It had an aluminum pin (should have been stainless steel) that allowed the drive to be turned down vertically to run, or up, to get the prop out of the water. Unfortunately, if you yanked the steering wheel hard enough at speed, it sheared the pin, the drive fell out, the boat ‘swapped ends’ immediately, and threw your ass out if you were not driving, then started to sink with a big hole where the drive had been. Everyone in the water donated clothes to stuff the hole. I got thrown out twice in one day. If you look at the picture of an early 16, it does not have a hand rail around the cockpit. After my second swim, they all had rails. We started winning one race after another, and unlike today’s races, they generated press all over the world."

http://www.powerboatnation.com/brownies-bites-tales-from-thunderboat-row/

Not sure if the above info is already all factored in...I didn't wade through al 34 pages of the thread.

Greg Guimond

02-21-2016, 10:11 PM

This quote from Brownie's Bites on Powerboat nation.com may help shed a little light on the likely engine/drive and grab rail configuration of the earliest boats...

Interesting. Not sure what woobs has on the deck grab rails. Also pretty interesting that Allan Brown says that 289's were in the first demo boats.

Greg Guimond

02-21-2016, 10:18 PM

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Uncovered another bit of info about the 1965 National Powerboat Show in NYC on Jan 14th. It looks like Donzi had two booths (205 and 212) which is a lot of Coliseum space. Need to check out Shongut Marine in Westchester County as the only Donzi dealer in late 1964 as Bill Wishnik lived in Scarsdale and was a major business player at the time.
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olredalert

02-22-2016, 08:37 AM

----Love that add!!!!!......Bill S

Greg Guimond

02-22-2016, 09:29 AM

----Love that add!!!!!......Bill S

Yep very cool for sure Bill and never before found! The photo of the 19' Hornet they used was taken on November 7, 1964 during the Miami to Key West Race. That is Allan Brown (now 82 years old) driving the #69 "Donzi Daddy" in the photo. That specific race put Donzi on the map like no other as it was there first time competing as a "new company" but you would know that as I believe you were a dealer back in the day. Another tidbit is that in addition to (5) brand new inboard hulls in the race piloted by employees of Donzi, a privateer entered an Outboard powered 19 Donzi as well in the race. My little 16 O/B feels vindicated lol but I digress :lookaroun:

Here is the race entrant list from 1964 ......... four 28's and two 19's

Greg Guimond

02-22-2016, 10:07 AM

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And here is the outboard powered Donzi 19' Hornet in a shot also taken in that same November 7, 1964 race. Davey Wilson shown running triple OMC 75hp wackers on the back, proving that Donzi did build OB's in 1964.

I wonder if they built any 16 OB's in 1964? :embarasse

Greg Guimond

02-23-2016, 11:25 PM

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I poked around on Shongut Marine and it led me to the article below. Evidently, right after the New York show shut down on January 24, 1965 there were two very good size boat shows that started up on Long Island on January 30. Given time to set up, that's 5 days after the NYC show concluded. I wonder of Donzi decided to take there boats to Long Island given how close it was to NYC and the fact Don was a next door Brooklyn boy?
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Greg Guimond

02-24-2016, 11:08 PM

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An email with a bit of insight on the first Ski Sporters from Charlie Strang, ex CEO of OMC ...............

From: Ron
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 15:56:22
To: Greg Guimond
Subject: Fw: Gerry and 16' Donzi?

Here's the answer to your question!

--- Forwarded Message ---

From: (Strang)
To: Ron
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: Gerry and 16' Donzi?

Hi- No, Gerry Walin had nothing to do with the 16 foot Donzi design.
The boat was designed for Don Aronow in Miami by Jim Wynne and Walt Walters. Jim did the concept work and Walt did the actual design. The original boats were for stern drives.
After the first boat was built from the drawings Don asked Wynne and me to come to his plant to see the seating arrangement he had installed in that first boat. It was during that visit that the Donzi name was first used.
This was in 1963 or 1964 or thereabouts after I left OMC. I kept a set of the original blueprints for the little Donzi and gave them to OMC when they bought Donzi. I was still on the OMC board at the time although no longer an employee.
Who knows what happened to those drawings when OMC went bankrupt about a decade later!

Regards,
ChasS.

Greg Guimond

02-25-2016, 08:36 AM

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The first day of Spring is less than a month away :eek: so updating the 1964 build list. 9 boats are now confirmed 100% ............. so far.
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Hull 1. Original B+W Press Release boat – Photo shows the “long” inner strakes & Volvo drive. Mike Aronow writes of taking a test run with his Dad in KOTBR. Date of B+W photo unknown, but must be snapped after May 5, and before October 5, 1964
100% Confirmed

Hull 2. Teknikens Varld Magazine boat - White w/ Red deck stripe only. New "shortened" inner strakes & single thru hull exhaust in photo. No Grab Rail. Shipped to Volvo Sweden for tests which was likely hastened by the 10/1/64 Longshoremans strike
100% Confirmed

Hull 3. Frank Civitano Sr boat - Solid green w/ Red deck stripe. Frank's Dad was personal friends with Don A from construction. Boat was used for Summer of '64 in Southern NJ. Motor, drive and Deck Grab Rail Unknown. Photo lost in Superstorm Sandy
50% - Definitely existed but still somewhat suspect as a 1964 build

Hull 4. Jim Wynne driving boat - White w/ Red deck & red chine stripe. Speedo to right of helm. Inner strakes not clear but look to be "short" in photos. Drive ID'd as Volvo Aq200 Euro loaner. No Deck Grab Rail. Photos thought to be taken Sept/Oct '64
100% Confirmed

Hull 5. Allan Brown driving boat - White w/ Green deck stripe only - Ford Eaton 260 cu inch V8 165hp motor & Eaton flip up drive. No Deck Grab Rail. Again, color photo of both Brown and Wynne running side by side thought to be taken Sept/Oct 1964
100% Confirmed

Hull 6. Jacksonville Boat Show boat - White w/ Blue deck stripe thru dash & blue chine stripe. Brownie at show on 11/13/64. Shown in Four Page Color Brochure with El Camino, & on Travel-Lift. First Aq200 production drive in USA - No Deck Grab Rail
100% Confirmed

Hull 7. Bob Cox and Ed Joyce boat - No photo of hull at Lauderdale Marina found so far. Initially they raced a Formula 233 then became the first Donzi dealer in Florida. "Hot" Volvo 110/100 package. Deck Grab Rail unknown. ID provided by F. Darwick
100% Confirmed

Hull 8. Fred Darwick race boat - Invoice #67 dated 12/10/64 shows $3,095. Photo of hull marked with race #11 shows it as White w/ Green deck stripe & green chine stripe. "Hot" Volvo 110 (made 140hp) & special race Aq100 drive. No Deck Grab Rail
100% Confirmed

Hull 9. David Ray boat - White w/ Blue deck stripe. Initial power also "Hot" Volvo 110/100 package. Sold to David Ray directly by Don Aronow with Fred's help. Boat still exists in Merritt Island today under a different owner. Race Aq100 drive in storage.
100% Confirmed

Hull 10. New York Boat Show 16 – Color was white with a blue stripe. Show was Jan 13, 1965. Could it have then continued North to the Shepherd boys or was an entirely different (and additional) '64 hull shipped up to Canada? woobs asking TIBS
100% Confirmed

Hull 11. Second New York Boat Show 16 - Did it exist, get sold and sent South? Only Brownie would remember if there were two Ski Sporter’s in the booth next to the $8,000 green 19' Hornet. Donzi had two booths at the show.
90% - Brownie email last week recalls one or two and Scott Bolts says two

Hull 12. Canada Shepherd Ltd boat - Was it solid yellow? woobs has made contact with Jim Hahn Jr., whose Dad managed Shepherd Boats at this time. They'll meet to review old Donzi partnership papers that still exist for added clues sometime in 2016
50% - Pending review of the 50 year old cottage papers as TIBS show was a full month later than originally thought

Hull 13. All Black boat - Was this yet another totally different 16 or was the reporter calling it black when it was actually another dark color? Only one person in the world would know
25% - Only one article refers to the black hull. Looking for a second

Greg Guimond

02-28-2016, 05:56 PM

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This article does not help with the 1964's specifically but it has some interesting build numbers ........

Greg Guimond

02-28-2016, 06:20 PM

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And another article from a different paper one week later ...............

Greg Guimond

02-29-2016, 03:42 PM

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Almost time to close out this thread as first day of Spring is March 20th. Here's the exchange that I was able to have with Frank C about his Dad's 16. Very nice of him to share what he recalled for the history books.

Thanks Frank!

jl1962

02-29-2016, 04:02 PM

Shongut was just down the road from us.
I grew up in Harrison. But my dad bought our '67 Ski Sporter, in late '68, from a dealer in LI that was going out of business.

83942

Whatever happened to the '64 Ski Sporter that is/was for sale in FL?

Morgan's Cloud

02-29-2016, 04:45 PM

Is it just me or does Frank C's explicit use of the term 'production Donzi' change this whole time line discussion ?

Greg Guimond

02-29-2016, 09:56 PM

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Here is the exact color combination of Frank Civitano's fathers Ski Sporter including the tan interior.

Greg Guimond

03-01-2016, 04:41 PM

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Another missing link in the 16 timeline is Doc Magoon, close friend to Don Aronow.................

Greg Guimond

03-02-2016, 07:31 PM

Whatever happened to the '64 Ski Sporter that is/was for sale in FL?

I dunno.........BUIZILLA said he had gotten a call about that happening but personally I have not seen anything surface. That 1964 is alive and well though in Florida, that I do know. It has the time capsule OEM grabrail.

Greg Guimond

03-02-2016, 07:37 PM

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With only 18 days to go before Spring and the banter cut off date, it would be so much easier if a picture like this one of the 16 taken at the 1966 NYC Show surfaced for the 1965 Show.

Greg Guimond

03-02-2016, 09:02 PM

Is it just me or does Frank C's explicit use of the term 'production Donzi' change this whole time line discussion ?

Interesting .............

I was thinking about that briefly as well but came to believe this about Frank's recollections. While his Dad's boat is off the list as it was not built in 1964, it makes sense that Don told his good friend that it was roughly the 4th production 16 boat. Don and the boys probably did not think "production" until they realized that people wanted what they had. They had been building the Ski Sporters all along, but were almost totally focused on the 28's as those 28's were kicking ass across all of the races in 1964. They had five 28's built and running. Fred Darwick told me that when he told Don Aronow he wanted a 16 Don asked him what he was going to do with it. Fred replied "race it" so that got Don's attention. Then ........ Fred and Judy went out and won in the 16 on January 2 and a legend is born.

All that said, the building of the Ski Sporter is incredibly consistent over time so a Ski Sporter is a Ski Sporter until you get to my boat with a pad ten years later. From the 1st hull in the timeline, the only thing that gets an adjustment are the two lifting strakes. Frank Sr's boat was most likely built and bought in March, 1965 and probably was the very first Ski Sporter with a car motor by H/M. Shame the photos are lost forever.

Greg Guimond

03-06-2016, 08:50 AM

Thanks to Frank C for his cooperation and info but have to remove his Dad's 16 from the build list .............
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Hull 1. Original B+W Press Release boat – Photo shows the “long” inner strakes & Volvo drive. Mike Aronow writes of taking a test run with his Dad in KOTBR. Date of B+W photo unknown, but must be snapped after May 5, and before October 5, 1964
100% Confirmed

Hull 2. Teknikens Varld Magazine boat - White w/ Red deck stripe only. New "shortened" inner strakes & single thru hull exhaust in photo. No Grab Rail. Shipped to Volvo Sweden for tests which was likely hastened by the 10/1/64 Longshoremans strike
100% Confirmed

Hull 3. Jim Wynne driving boat - White w/ Red deck & red chine stripe. Speedo to right of helm. Inner strakes not clear but look to be "short" in photos. Drive ID'd as Volvo Aq200 Euro loaner. No Deck Grab Rail. Photos thought to be taken Sept/Oct '64
100% Confirmed

Hull 4. Allan Brown driving boat - White w/ Green deck stripe only - Ford Eaton 260 cu inch V8 165hp motor & Eaton flip up drive. No Deck Grab Rail. Again, color photo of both Brown and Wynne running side by side thought to be taken Sept/Oct 1964
100% Confirmed

Hull 5. Jacksonville Boat Show boat - White w/ Blue deck stripe thru dash & blue chine stripe. Brownie at show on 11/13/64. Shown in Four Page Color Brochure with El Camino, & on Travel-Lift. First Aq200 production drive in USA - No Deck Grab Rail
100% Confirmed

Hull 6. Bob Cox and Ed Joyce boat - No photo of hull at Lauderdale Marina found so far. Initially they raced a Formula 233 then became the first Donzi dealer in Florida. "Hot" Volvo 110/100 package. Deck Grab Rail unknown. ID provided by F. Darwick
100% Confirmed

Hull 7. Fred Darwick race boat - Invoice #67 dated 12/10/64 shows $3,095. Photo of hull marked with race #11 shows it as White w/ Green deck stripe & green chine stripe. "Hot" Volvo 110 (made 140hp) & special race Aq100 drive. No Deck Grab Rail
100% Confirmed

Hull 8. David Ray boat - White w/ Blue deck stripe. Initial power also "Hot" Volvo 110/100 package. Sold to David Ray directly by Don Aronow with Fred's help. Boat still exists in Merritt Island today under a different owner. Race Aq100 drive in storage.
100% Confirmed

Hull 9. New York Boat Show 16 – Color was white with a blue stripe. Show was Jan 13, 1965. Could it have then continued North to the Shepherd boys or was an entirely different (and additional) '64 hull shipped up to Canada? woobs asking TIBS
100% Confirmed

Hull 10. Second New York Boat Show 16 - Did it exist, get sold and sent South? Only Brownie would remember if there were two Ski Sporter’s in the booth next to the $8,000 green 19' Hornet. Donzi had two booths at the show.
90% - Brownie email last week recalls one or two and Scott Bolts says two

Hull 11. Canada Shepherd Ltd boat - Was it solid yellow? woobs has made contact with Jim Hahn Jr., whose Dad managed Shepherd Boats at this time. They'll meet to review old Donzi partnership papers that still exist for added clues sometime in 2016
50% - Pending review of the 50 year old cottage papers as TIBS show was a full month later than originally thought

Hull 12. All Black boat - Was this yet another totally different 16 or was the reporter calling it black when it was actually another dark color? Only one person in the world would know
25% - Only one article refers to the black hull. Looking for a second

Greg Guimond

03-06-2016, 08:55 AM

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Still nothing further on the "jet black" Ski Sporter mentioned below so holding that one at 25% thinking the reporter was perhaps color blind.

Greg Guimond

03-06-2016, 09:40 AM

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Here is a piece from the '60s that captures Aronow prior to his race boat success and before he built the first 12 Ski Sporter 16 hulls in 1964.
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Greg Guimond

03-23-2016, 09:27 PM

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Below is the article printed on January 30, 1965

The New York Boat Show started on January 15, 1965 and concluded on Sunday January 24. According to the article below, the boat show in Baltimore started on Thursday, February 4th which was about the same time as Toronto International Boat Show :screwy:

The first day of the TIBS is Friday, February 5, 1965

Greg Guimond

03-25-2016, 07:05 AM

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Meanwhile back in NYC, Brownie was offering instant Kingship status to anyone who would give him $8k ....................awesome :kingme:

Greg Guimond

03-28-2016, 07:04 AM

I have contacted the Toronto International Boat Show office and asked for access to their archives. They have agreed but, they are elbow deep in the 2016 TIBS show at the moment (and 2 other shows shortly after). I am assured they have some photographs (and possibly more) from the 1965 show.

We'll see in a few months when the busy season is passed.

woobs did you ever get a response from the TIBS folks? Any photos of the February 5, 1965 boat show? Below is the Official Program from 1965.

woobs

03-28-2016, 09:57 AM

I did e-mail them again just about 2 weeks ago.......... silence.
About time for another follow up :)

Greg Guimond

04-06-2016, 07:35 AM

I did e-mail them again just about 2 weeks ago.......... silence. About time for another follow up

I doubt they have anything. I've also been surprised that there is almost no info out there on the 1965 TIBS Show. I suspect it does not play much of a role for 1964 Ski Sporter builds given a February 5, 1965 start day.

In any event, Spring down here seems to have gone on strike so I've extended my thread cut off date. It was 28 degrees this morning :eek: That's just NOT right. While I wrap up the final count on 1964 Ski Sporters, which turns out to be more than the "Historian" and elders ever thought, I have to post this from the only guy left on the planet who actually was at Donzi in 1964. I've said Ken Burns wants to have a chat about a docu-drama. Paragraph and photo below courtesy of AB's series in PBN. Nice that he gives Walt the credit. Dude has an amazing memory, and a "one-of-a-kind" way with words .......

"Aronow had commissioned Wynne and Walters (mostly Walters) to design some new boats, 16 through 35 feet, for a new company. He kept most of the crew from Formula to man the new company, which was to be called “Donzi”, a rude reference to Don’s sexuality. The crew included Dave Stirrat, Buddy Smith, Jake Trotter, Roy Farmer and secretary/lunch toy, Mary Ann Mossa. Don was forced to include our pal, Stu Jackson, in the sale of Formula, and Stu became the sales manager of the new company, Thunderbird/Formula. Lacking a sales manager for the new company, he made me a deal that I should have refused. I was General Manager of Challenger Marine, in North Miami, Fl. Challenger was the biggest Formula dealer, and one of the biggest Chris Craft, Boston Whaler and Johnson outboard dealers. We built small fiberglass boats, a 16’ outboard, and the Moth class sailboat. We had a manicured 7 1⁄2 acre marina that was kept spotless, and aspired to the highest ideals and morals of the boat industry. My background as an elementary school practice teacher and outboard mechanic made me perfectly suited to run the multi-million dollar company. Aronow asked me to join the new company in May, ’64, but Challenger owner, Dudley Whitman, was going surfing in Hawaii through August with his kids, and I agreed to stay until then. I worked the night shift at Donzi for free."
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Greg Guimond

04-17-2016, 10:03 AM

probably went something along the lines of ....... phone call to sweden - hey we're having issues with hull 1 and the aq200 they brainstorm and say maybe it is disturbed water around the lower this leads them to shortened the strakes and as an added measure to make sure the new volvo exhaust integrated into the drive lower isn't causing the issue( the aq100 had a separate side unit for this) let the exhaust go thru the hull and plug and cap the exhaust openings ( as seen in the tekenkens pics). Hey Bjorn that worked ok Don can you send us a boat we want to study this.

I read somewhere... that the real reason behind the shortened strakes was because these boats were not exactly overloaded with horsepower and the extra lift in the stern provided by the long full-length strakes combined with a lack of power to carry the bow resulted in an unbalanced boat. This situation caused a tendency to porpoise and bow steer and to compound the problem, was a dynamic issue that could not be solved with a static trim compromise setting on the drive. Further, a redesign of major balancing items was impractical (and ultimately, un-necessary). The "disturbed flow" was a rouse to keep the ever prying eyes of competitors (both racing and corporate) guessing just what Volvo and W-W designers were actually doing....because at this time, everybody watched what Don did.

Woobs, I am going from what Walt told me . we were flipping thru a few of his drawings and I mentioned that I noticed a difference in Strake lengths on later versions of his designs. He said the Volvo didn't like the water coming off the longer inner strakes. the rework of the 16 into the 18 had full length strakes and when they rounded the bottom they had strakes that ended almost at the transom compared to the earlier 16 versions. this happened on the 16 and the hornet . The 18C and the 22C share the same strake layout the hornetII and III have longer strakes than my Hornet yet when the minx comes out it has short strakes like the 16?

I'm still finalizing the journey a bit. Here is a picture of Fred Darwick's first 16 Ski Sporter. This is the hull that Fred took delivery of in December, 1964 and that has an invoice of December 10, 1964. This would mean it was built in November. The picture is one of the few remaining that CLEARLY shows the "short" inner lifting strakes. This particular hull is #7 in the timeline.

I also will get photos this week of the 1964 hull still surviving in Florida. This is David D. Ray's Hull #8. It's probably the only 1964 build still in existence in the world I suspect.

Greg Guimond

04-30-2016, 07:54 AM

I looked at the photos of the only surviving 1964 Ski Sporter 16 ........ Hull #8.

Hull 8. David Ray boat - White w/ Blue deck stripe. Initial power also "Hot" Volvo 110/100 package. Sold to David Ray directly by Don Aronow with Fred's help. Boat still exists in Merritt Island today under a different owner. Race Aq100 drive in storage.
100% Confirmed

An exact measurement shows that the inner strakes actually start 53" forward of the transom. The blue deck stripe does not come down through the dash. This boat had the deck grab rail when produced new and still has it today. This would make it the first Ski Sporter ever delivered with the rail. Checking on a few other items as well.

Greg Guimond

04-30-2016, 08:00 AM

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So in conclusion, there were (11) Ski Sporter 16's built by Donzi in 1964. Cool as it might have been I was never able to substantiate the "all black" hull that would have made it twelve.

Eleven
Eleven

All but one are now in heaven :angel:

Greg Guimond

03-07-2017, 09:22 PM

Greg Guimond

03-07-2017, 09:25 PM

...........
My most updated research list of the 16's built during 1964 ...............

.............

Hull 1. Original B+W Press Release boat – Photo shows the “long” inner strakes & Volvo drive. Mike Aronow writes of taking a test run with his Dad in KOTBR. Date of B+W photo unknown, but must be snapped after May 5, and before October 5, 1964
100% Confirmed

Hull 2. Teknikens Varld Magazine boat - White w/ Red deck stripe only. New "shortened" inner strakes & single thru hull exhaust in photo. No Grab Rail. Shipped to Volvo Sweden for tests which was likely hastened by the 10/1/64 Longshoremans strike
100% Confirmed

Hull 3. Jim Wynne driving boat - White w/ Red deck & red chine stripe. Speedo to right of helm. Inner strakes not clear but look to be "short" in photos. Drive ID'd as Volvo Aq200 Euro loaner. No Deck Grab Rail. Photos thought to be taken Sept/Oct '64
100% Confirmed

Hull 4. Allan Brown driving boat - White w/ Green deck stripe only - Ford Eaton 260 cu inch V8 165hp motor & Eaton flip up drive. No Deck Grab Rail. Again, color photo of both Brown and Wynne running side by side thought to be taken Sept/Oct 1964
100% Confirmed

Hull 5. Jacksonville Boat Show boat - White w/ Blue deck stripe thru dash & blue chine stripe. Brownie at show on 11/13/64. Shown in Four Page Color Brochure with El Camino, & on Travel-Lift. First Aq200 production drive in USA - No Deck Grab Rail
100% Confirmed

Hull 6. Bob Cox and Ed Joyce boat - No photo of hull at Lauderdale Marina found so far. Initially they raced a Formula 233 then became the first Donzi dealer in Florida. "Hot" Volvo 110/100 package. Deck Grab Rail unknown. ID provided by F. Darwick
100% Confirmed

Hull 7. Fred Darwick race boat - Invoice #67 dated 12/10/64 shows $3,095. Photo of hull marked with race #11 shows it as White w/ Green deck stripe & green chine stripe. "Hot" Volvo 110 (made 140hp) & special race Aq100 drive. No Deck Grab Rail
100% Confirmed

Hull 8. David Ray boat - White w/ Blue deck stripe. Initial power also "Hot" Volvo 110/100 package. Sold to David Ray directly by Don Aronow with Fred's help. Boat still exists in Merritt Island today under a different owner. Race Aq100 drive in storage.
100% Confirmed

Hull 9. New York Boat Show 16 – Color was white with a blue stripe. Show was Jan 13, 1965. Could it have then continued North to the Shepherd boys or was an entirely different (and additional) '64 hull shipped up to Canada? woobs asking TIBS
100% Confirmed

Hull 10. Second New York Boat Show 16 - Did it exist, get sold and sent South? Only Brownie would remember if there were two Ski Sporter’s in the booth next to the $8,000 green 19' Hornet. Donzi had two booths at the show.
90% - Brownie email last week recalls one or two and Scott Bolts says two

Hull 11. Canada Shepherd Ltd boat - Was it solid yellow? woobs has made contact with Jim Hahn Jr., whose Dad managed Shepherd Boats at this time. They'll meet to review old Donzi partnership papers that still exist for added clues sometime in 2016
50% - Pending review of the 50 year old cottage papers as TIBS show was a full month later than originally thought

Hull 12. All Black boat - Was this yet another totally different 16 or was the reporter calling it black when it was actually another dark color? Only one person in the world would know
25% - Only one article refers to the black hull. Looking for a second

woobs

03-07-2017, 11:21 PM

My contact (Jim Hahn) lives in Western Canada but, has a family cottage in Muskoka (where the paper are). I'll have to "catch" him when he has come to Ontario for holidays.

I did follow up with the TIBS and they have no archives that far back as another company did the show then.

Greg Guimond

10-20-2017, 06:13 PM

.......
A confirmed 1964 date stamp of when Gross-Greenman Advertising took on PR duties for Don and the crew

Greg Guimond

10-23-2017, 03:13 PM

Gross-Greenman made other announcements when they brought on a new client so the November 5, 1964 data is fully legit.

Tim Morris

11-17-2017, 09:01 PM

At this time I have no evidence to support three hulls coming to Canada at the same time in 1964. I was told about the first 16 coming up to be used for promotional work (starting with TIBS) and as a "guide" for building the boats once the moulds arrived.

It is possible that more boats came up when the 18 was introduced.

I'll know more when I get to sort through all the Shepherd paperwork.

I was told that story about three 16s coming to Canada too. That was from the original owner - Richard Robinson who cottaged on Lake Roseau in Ontario.
He sold me his 16, all red with white stripe with an Eaton outdrive. That was back in about 1977. I restored and re-powered the boat with a Volvo package.
It seemed a little overpowered at the time when I almost lost my 1 year old son off the back on one of my grandstanding launches. That was in 1986. That
winter I went to Fla and brought a new '87 Minx which has more freeboard - better to keeps the kids in the boat. I still have the Minx, but sold the 16 to
Greg Swick and it is still around the Muskoka area.

Greg Guimond

12-15-2017, 06:13 PM

It's snowing here so some more forensics as Winter begins...........

The first attachment below is most likely the very first "published" article about the Donzi 16 introduction. Dated October 23, 1964, it easily pre-dates what I had found prior, which I have included below as the second attachment. The newspaper article includes Bob Cox, South Florida legend, doing some great promo work for Don's new 16. Classic!

jl1962

12-16-2017, 06:56 AM

A nice snowy, Saturday morning, coffee read
:)

Just Say N20

12-17-2017, 09:14 AM

Greg, you have the tenacity of a pitbull.

Greg Guimond

12-19-2017, 06:52 AM

I agree Bill, it becomes addictive :)

I still have Winter work to do on one last puzzle piece .............

Greg Guimond

02-14-2018, 07:56 PM

.............
I've been contacted with a possible lead on the 1964 "All Black" 16. There's still a lot of research to do ...... but we shall see. No more info for 2 months until some forensics are done.

Greg Guimond

02-15-2018, 08:51 PM

...............
There are only two people alive in the world that would be able to verify an all black 16. Not good odds :garfield:

Greg Guimond

02-20-2018, 01:30 PM

........
Here is the excerpt from the January 30, 1965 issue of The New Yorker. No mention of the "all black" mystery 16 :frown:

A classic quip from Mr Brown though!

CHACHI

02-20-2018, 02:51 PM

It is good to be the King

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StJS51d1Fzg

Ken

Greg Guimond

03-21-2018, 09:52 PM

......
It is snowing outside and the roads are full of black ice, so I'm still researching the all black 16 aka the missing link to the full 1964 build puzzle. The more I look at this photo the more I think it could be the all black. Or maybe I just want it to be the all black suspected 1964. Dr. Trost's Son is proving to be a hard dude to get a hold of but I have three leads on him.

Greg Guimond

08-25-2018, 03:40 PM

I suspect you will gather that piece of information once you review the Shepherd Boat files :yes:

Yes, I hope to. But, my contact lives in British Columbia (3000kms away) and the documents are at his cottage about an hour and a half from me. It will not be until next summer or, such time that he has available for us to meet there.

woobs did you drop the communications with the Shepard files from 3 years ago on the 1964 builds?

Greg Guimond

08-26-2018, 06:29 AM

...
After three years work, my most recent list of the "1964 16 builds" with a key breakthrough to the mysterious ........ Hull #12

Hull 1. Original B+W Press Release boat – Photo shows the “long” inner strakes & Volvo drive. Mike Aronow writes of taking a test run with his Dad in KOTBR. Date of B+W photo unknown, but must be snapped after May 5, and before October 5, 1964.
100% Confirmed

Hull 2. Teknikens Varld Magazine boat - White w/ Red deck stripe only. New "shortened" inner strakes & single thru hull exhaust in photo. No Grab Rail. Shipped to Volvo Sweden for tests which was likely hastened by the 10/1/64 Longshoremans strike.
100% Confirmed

Hull 3. Jim Wynne driving boat - White w/ Red deck & red chine stripe. Speedo to right of helm. Inner strakes not clear but look to be "short" in photos. Drive ID'd as Volvo Aq200 Euro loaner. No Deck Grab Rail. Photos thought to be taken Sept/Oct '64.
100% Confirmed

Hull 4. Allan Brown driving boat - White w/ Green deck stripe only - Ford Eaton 260 cu inch V8 165hp motor & Eaton flip up drive. No Deck Grab Rail. Again, color photo of both Brown and Wynne running side by side thought to be taken Sept/Oct 1964.
100% Confirmed

Hull 5. Jacksonville Boat Show boat - White w/ Blue deck stripe thru dash & blue chine stripe. Brownie at show on 11/13/64. Shown in Four Page Color Brochure with El Camino, & on Travel-Lift. First Aq200 production drive in USA - No Deck Grab Rail.
100% Confirmed

Hull 6. Bob Cox and Ed Joyce boat - No photo of hull at dealer Lauderdale Marina ever found so far. Initially they raced a Formula 233 then became the first Donzi dealer in Florida. "Hot" Volvo 110/100 package. Deck Grab Rail unknown. ID provided by F. Darwick.
100% Confirmed

Hull 7. Fred Darwick race boat - Invoice #67 dated 12/10/64 shows $3,095. Photo of hull marked with race #11 shows it as White w/ Green deck stripe & green chine stripe. "Hot" Volvo 110 (made 140hp) & special race Aq100 drive. No Deck Grab Rail.
100% Confirmed

Hull 8. David Ray boat - White w/ Blue deck stripe. Initial power also "Hot" Volvo 110/100 package. Sold to David Ray directly by Don Aronow with Fred's help. Boat still exists in Merritt Island today under a different owner. Race Aq100 drive in storage.
100% Confirmed

Hull 9. New York Boat Show 16 – Color was white with a blue stripe. Show was Jan 13, 1965 in a blizzard. Could it have then continued North to the Shepherd boys or was an entirely different (and additional) '64 hull shipped up to Canada? woobs asking TIBS.
100% Confirmed

Hull 10. Second New York Boat Show 16 - Did it exist, get sold and sent South? Only Brownie would remember if there were two Ski Sporter’s in the booth next to the $8,000 green 19' Hornet. Donzi had two booths at the show.
90% - Brownie email last week recalls one or two, and Scott Bolts says two

Hull 11. Canada Shepherd Ltd boat - Was it solid yellow? woobs has made contact with Jim Hahn Jr., whose Dad managed Shepherd Boats at this time. They'll meet to review old Donzi partnership papers that still exist for added clues sometime in 2016.
50% - Pending review of the 50 year old cottage papers as TIBS show was a full month later than originally thought

Hull 12. All Black boat - Was this yet another totally different 16 or was the reporter calling it black when it was actually another dark color? Only one person in the world might know.
25% - Only one article refers to the black hull. Looking for others. Edit: Increasing to 50%. A very early "All Black" hull has been located! It is currently undergoing forensics.

Greg Guimond

08-31-2018, 02:32 PM

.......
A confirmed 1964 date stamp of when Gross-Greenman Advertising took on PR duties for Don and the crew

Gross-Greenman made other announcements when they brought on a new client so the November 5, 1964 data is fully legit.

A follow-up to the November 5, 1964 Gross Greenman launch is this first ad by Donzi's first dealer, Lauderdale Marina, dated 12-25-64

Greg Guimond

09-08-2018, 02:19 PM

.............
Starting to work through the discovery process with the "jet black" 16. First, I uncovered confirmation that there was a black one built in 1966 with a tan interior. Possibly two were built based on the info below. Now I need to see if I can connect any other dots for 1964 and 1965. Info is really hard to come by on this last piece of the puzzle for all the 16's built in 1964.

Greg Guimond

09-16-2018, 08:15 AM

............
Still coming up empty for 1964, so as I search for a background on the black hull I decided to spend some time on 1965 to see if there were solid colored hulls built that year. Old information that had already been uncovered by board members plus new info that I was able to document shows there were actually several different solid colored hulls.

The first below is from December of 1965, an all red 16 with 165hp Interceptor. Notice the price of $4,885.

Greg Guimond

09-17-2018, 05:04 AM

.............
Then there is the famous picture of the two 16's in Red and Yellow in the window of Abercrombie and Fitch NYC in 1965. The exact date of the photo was never fully documented.

Greg Guimond

09-17-2018, 05:08 AM

...........
To help, this photo appeared in September, 1965 issue of the magazine. Look on the right and you will see the yellow 16 in the window. When you factor in the lead time for publication and also look at what folks are wearing in the photo above taken on the street, I would think the time frame is June, 1965.

Greg Guimond

09-17-2018, 05:24 AM

..........
Moving in reverse on the months you then have to look at the June, 1965 cover shot of Don A in the all red 16 with white interior. Again, if the magazine had to be on the news stands on June 1, it would need to shoot at least two month earlier I would think. That moves the factory building all color hulls up to at least as early as April 1965. Notice the price in the test article is $4,395.

Greg Guimond

09-17-2018, 05:34 AM

............

And here is more discussion about the all red 16 in an article published June 19, 1965

markp

09-17-2018, 07:11 AM

Super interesting stuff... amazing what you've been able to dig up!

axelkloehn

09-17-2018, 07:52 AM

Interesting thought Rob. That picture is of Dr. Oskar Trost of Dusseldorf Germany.

Trost was an extremely well known offshore racer during the entire 1960's decade and into the '70's. This guy was accomplished and comfortable racing all kinds of powerboats including Fino's' Chris Crafts and Bertrams. The photograph looks about as close to an all jet black Ski Sporter 16 as you could ask for BUT what little information exists on it claims the photo was shot in 1965 at Lake Constance. What makes no sense to me is why a high net worth German industrialist would need to drive south 6 hours to Lake Constance for weekend fun. Also, if the photo was taken in early 1965 why does the Ski Sporter not have a grab rail?

During this thread I have tried to research if Dr. Trost was a Donzi dealer at some point similar to Robert Cox of Lauderdale Marina. Details are sketchy on that so far.

Greg, that is not unusual in germany, many people drive all the way down to lake constance for a weekend, from Düsseldorf you can make it in 4-5 hrs if you are quick. Or may be Trost had a weekend house over there. You got me infected now, I will try to find out more for you. Do you know somethimg about the pic I attached? Same boat?

markp

09-17-2018, 08:49 AM

Greg Guimond

09-17-2018, 07:03 PM

Greg, I have no info on the sept 1964 article and test you are going to have to find that. The dinner key test was on April 15th 1965 and appeared in print in their June 1965 issue

Looking back into the thread, Matty had provided the actual date that the all red 16 was tested for the magazine. April 15, 1965.

We now are closing in on the factories ability to produce solid color boats in the timeline. The all red hull is spoken for and now I have found a confirmation on the all yellow 16.

Greg Guimond

09-17-2018, 07:11 PM

Greg, that is not unusual in germany, many people drive all the way down to lake constance for a weekend, from Düsseldorf you can make it in 4-5 hrs if you are quick. Or maybe Trost had a weekend house over there. You got me infected now, I will try to find out more for you. Do you know somethimg about the pic I attached? Same boat?

Axel and markp, I have never seen that photo. Thanks for the kudos on my research.

Axel, Dr. Trost was very wealthy so it would not surprise me at all if he had a home there and I did not know that was a prime destination in Germany. Trost is a key piece of the puzzle so anything you dig up is appreciated! He was a dealer for Riva and Chris Craft fyi. Btw, Mrs. Trost was no lightweight, in one offshore race a shark got tangled somehow in there boats direct drives. She evidently jumped into the water with a large knife and hacked it out of the props.

Greg Guimond

09-17-2018, 07:26 PM

...................

axelkloehn

09-18-2018, 01:04 AM

...................

hmmm.... I am staring at this picture and the more I am looking at it the more I am asking myself can the boat be dark red and the foto just turned out too dark?

The reason I am asking myself is my parents had a 30ft vessel and in summer vacation every year we drove to Groemitz/Ostsee (baltic sea) since I was 8 years old. I am born '62, so it was in the early 70ies.

Grömitz has a big harbor with many boat bridges and at bridge 7 there was a Donzi 16 in dark red. I loved this boat so much that I kept sitting there for hours waiting if the owner comes and takes it for a ride.
Unfortunately this did not happen very often, all I know is it was a wealthy family with a holiday appartment somewhere in town and they only showed up at weekends.
Sometimes they came, as far as I remember father, wife and a kid, and they were just sitting in the Donzi, and sometimes they took it for a ride. When they were riding it it was a spectacular ride with fantastic V8 sound and he was racing like crazy with a Coronet daycruiser with twin engines owned by Volvo Penta service which was a damned fast boat...
This is how I got infected with the Donzi virus ;-) I never had the courage to contact the owner and ask him for a ride, I was too young and too shy...

Theory: I remember this Donzi in dark red, I cannot remember a white stripe and a grabrail, I cannot remember the interior in white, I think it was also red, but I was about 8-10 years old at that time... Donzis where extremely rare here in germany, may be (in the early 70ies) the only one here.
Could it be that Mr. Trost decided to go away from lake constance because of problems with speed and loudness- lake constance is a calm place for retired or elder people and may be he ran into trouble?
Grömitz is also just 4 hrs from Düsseldorf and was a place to be for many people who like boating and beaches... and Grömitz is about one hour from Hamburg where I live. I have found some hints with Mr. Trosts later chemical business being linked to Hamburg or a place close to Hamburg, and both places Hamburg and Düsseldorf had big boatshows once in the year. Of course it is all just a theory....but I am sure there were not many Donzis here in germany in the early 70ies...

axelkloehn

09-18-2018, 01:34 AM

I have found an article in DER SPIEGEL from april 1966 mentioning Dr. Trost as an Hamburg boat importer...

DER SPIEGEL 4/1966
In addition, the administration of the Hamburg exhibition park "Planten un Blomen" had to spend 2.2 million marks to satisfy the increasing urge of the Germans to water: that was how much the new, 24 meter high hall A cost. It was for the next week beginning of the international "German Boat Exhibition 1966" became necessary. Because the biggest boats of the exhibitors did not fit into the older exhibition halls.
Last year, the roof of Hall D was raised by five meters to 15 meters at a cost of 200,000 marks, so that the highest sailing yachts could be brought in for the most important German boat show. This year, the largest of 700 boats exhibited from 21 countries from the USA to Liechtenstein are rigged up to 19 meters high.
In line with the increasing demands of consumers, the prices are growing ahead of the continuing prosperity wind. At the first international boat show in Hamburg (1961) cost only - a show boat more than 50 000 marks - it was sold immediately. In 1964 exhibitors already offered 28 boats for more than 50,000 marks.
This year's Hamburg Boat Show will feature more than 40 upper-cost yachts. Most expensive show piece: the 16.61 meter long motor glider "Lady Lisse" of the Dutch shipyard Akerboom in Lisse near Amsterdam. Price: depending on equipment from 300 000 to 400 000 marks. Optionally, the skipper can sail up to 37.6 square meters or dodge on two 100 horsepower engines. Standard equipment includes eight bunks and a tiled bath.
Other exhibits are the expensive Dutch lady in the price little. The American Martin yachts cost around 200,000 marks. the most expensive type of Dutch Striker motor yacht 185 000 marks. For 164 360 marks Will the American. "Owens Aruba" offered, for 119 275 marks the Italian "Bora IV".
More than 100,000 marks for a yacht, as confirmed by German boat importers, have so far usually been only self-employed industrialists and highly-paid managers. But "the demand for expensive boats," said "Planten un Blomen" director Albert Lubisch: "has captured the middle wealth class".
Last year, an exhibitor recalled, a customer decided within half an hour to buy a 30 000-mark yacht. The price he leafed from a briefcase bar on the table. "Surprisingly many customers have gone up in the last few years to 50,000 or 60,000 marks," wondered the Hamburg boat importer Dr. Oskar Trost about potent buyers among doctors, lawyers and tax consultants. Independent businessmen, "especially car dealers" (Trost), even invested up to 200,000 marks for a boat. The Italian company Riva advertises with the slogan "prestige on the water".
Many buyers of expensive yachts moved from smaller pleasure boats in the higher price range. Advantage: more spacious
Boats serve as a floating weekend home for the whole family or for sea trips with business partners. Of course, the owners demand more and more safety and comfort from the expensive water well-being homes.
"The tendency for the Fifty-Fifty boat is unmistakable," commented exhibition director Lubisch the growing range of motor gliders, more and more boats are equipped with two engines. But even better electronic navigation aids, such as echosounder or autopilot, and bulkier power units are installed. They are to provide on board the toilet, the bathroom, the refrigerator or a TV with electricity.
In addition to luxury-loving buyers, however, there is an increasing number of customers who seek to save additional time on their boat purchases: "Planten un Blomen" sells 20 different types of craft boats from 500 to 10,000 marks. About 8,000 prefabricated boats already swim for weekend captains.
Boatbuilder Edmund Sommerfeld from Wentorf near Hamburg shows shells for a 10-meter keelboat of the heraldic class, which would cost 100,000 marks fully equipped. In self-construction, the costs are reduced by half, if the approximately 5000 accumulated working hours are not calculated.
Only 1600 Mark is to cost a novelty, the physically under-burdened seat occupations victims provides the desirable compensation: a six-meter-long and one meter wide, equipped with a seat and Skulls manager galley of the Möllner boat builder Wilhelm Karlisch. For the first time, the Russian hydrofoil sports boat "Volga" (price: 18 350 marks) will be demonstrated.
However, the most interesting technical innovation was not completed in time for the exhibition. The British motorboat - world record holder Donald Campbell wanted to introduce In Hamburg the first series produced waterjet jet boat. The jet engine - it even allows for lateral laying - is installed in Dutch Striker boats.
Wilhelm Karlisch, chairman of the German Boat and Shipbuilders Association, warned less experienced producers: "Numerous rivets came up on the waterwave, which had little idea of shipbuilding, and many later found themselves in distress with defective boats." That's why Karlisch had a counseling booth set up at the Hamburg Boat Show.
Of course, despite all the advice, the affluent water wave has not eliminated one obstacle: the lack of moorings. In the seaside resort of Grömitz up to 12,000 marks have already been demanded and paid for moorings.

axelkloehn

09-18-2018, 01:41 AM

and DER SPIEGEL from '67:

Thousands of unsold boats were jammed, especially in France. Many German boatbuilders tested on the "Interboot" in Friedrichshafen (lake constance) in October 1966, "whether the long blow to Hamburg worthwhile," as the journal "Yacht" wrote. "Some dare not do it anymore."
Thus the German importer of the Lady Lisse and the Striker yachts (price: up to 185,000 marks) waived his stand for this year. In the last two years he had invested a total of 120,000 marks in the Hamburg boat show. Also the German boat importer Dr. Oskar Trost ("Pacemaker" yachts) claimed "only one-third of the exhibition space he had rented a year ago (450 square meters) for his boat offer, and the demurrage and transport cost him 48,000 marks, but this time he does not show the most expensive yachts.

axelkloehn

09-18-2018, 01:51 AM

Found it!
(add in the newsletter fro Hamburg Yacht Club where my parents also have been members later on)

Hamburg and Travemünde (Baltic sea, same bay close to Grömitz), could be I saw Mr Trost 46 years ago or at least someone who bought a boat from him...

axelkloehn

09-18-2018, 02:52 AM

His shop in Travemünde is just a private adress, may be a holiday appartment. The shop in hamburg was opened end of 1964 and ckosed in 1977, and looks like this today (first two pics) and how it looked 1971 (third pic, I can see a logo at the wall, may be it says Trost Sportship, the resolution is too low):

Greg Guimond

09-18-2018, 08:02 AM

Many good findings Axel for sure! Let me absorb all this info and I will come back.

Greg Guimond

09-18-2018, 08:13 AM

Another quick piece on Doctor Trost below

Greg Guimond

09-18-2018, 09:02 AM

1965 16 no rail, new tuck and roll interior in all white to match the deck stripe. driven by Dr. Oskar Trost on Lake Constance Germany

note hull 136 also has the traditional bilt rite style tuck and roll with rounded edges

hey how did he keep the hat on that is a real trick in a 16

.........................

axelkloehn

09-18-2018, 11:58 AM

There were 3 Major boatshows in germany all starting in the 60ies, the Interboot in Friedrichshafen (lake constance), the ‚Boot‘ in Düsseldorf and the Hanseboot in Hamburg.
It appears Trost was at every show that time with some boats, eventually he took a Donzi for a ride for the picture from lake constance...may be for reporters or for a magazin ...his strange outfit does more fit a huge Pacemaker yacht...

Greg Guimond

09-18-2018, 12:00 PM

Axel here is some more info I dug up. I would call the number but my German is sorely lacking.

Greg Guimond

09-18-2018, 12:11 PM

From the best I can put together Dr. Trost was an industrialist with several business lines including chemicals and cigars. In about 1959 he somehow got involved with Chris Craft in the US. This would lead to his developing the boat importing business which would later add Pacemaker and Riva and then after that Formula and Donzi into Germany. During these early 60's he became very active on the world racing Offshore circuit ultimately running his 38' Bertram WD-40 with great success.

This of course got him to know Don Aronow and team as friends and would lead to his importing Donzi. In the late 60's early 70's he actually had his own yachts built.

I can only find one son, Andreas, although there may be other children as well. Andreas I believe would be in his 50's now. Andreas Trost was also very active in performance boats for a short time but fell off the map about 10 years ago or a little less. I have strong reason to believe that if Andreas is found, and is willing/able to talk he will bring a tremendous clarity to the specific Donzi 16 his Father is pictured in. He may even have better photos or some type of notes. The best I have been able to find out so far is that he has a place in Arizona and a place in Germany and at one point was the builder behind Platinum Powerboats in Florida which shut down 10 years ago or so.

I have reason to think he is still alive and out there somewhere.

Greg Guimond

09-18-2018, 12:17 PM

Thanks Axel and here is a photo of the Miss WD-40. Unfortunately, another Doctor and a help in my 1964 16 Timeline passed away earlier this year, Doc Magoon. RIP.
Magoon read the eulogy at Aronow's funeral.

axelkloehn

09-18-2018, 12:17 PM

Btw, how do you know the Pic is from lake constance, it looks more like baltic sea to me...

Greg Guimond

09-18-2018, 12:20 PM

I do not have any confirmation on that. Mattyboy produced that specific picture and indicated it was Lake Constance so he would be the source.

Morgan's Cloud

09-18-2018, 02:18 PM

Yep, his Bertram was called Miss WD-40, that is a famous german anticorrosion spray, a link to his later chemical business.
Wonder if his son still steers the company, I give them a call tomorrow, now it is too late...

This is all very interesting so I just had to call on google.
Everything that comes up about WD40 says it's an invention of the Rocket Chemical co , an American company in the early 1950's.
But in the back of my mind there's this ancient reference to it being a German concoction when it finally made it to our shores.

axelkloehn

09-19-2018, 12:15 AM

This is all very interesting so I just had to call on google.
Everything that comes up about WD40 says it's an invention of the Rocket Chemical co , an American company in the early 1950's.
But in the back of my mind there's this ancient reference to it being a German concoction when it finally made it to our shores.

you're right, I am wrong, WD40 is an american invention and product, I mixed it up with our Caramba- that is the german product and was a competitor with WD40 here in germany but today everyone is using WD40

markp

09-20-2018, 12:27 PM

The early Sweden flags were thought to be in deference to being powered by Volvo (a swedish company) as opposed to where they were shipping to.

Morgan's Cloud

09-20-2018, 12:40 PM

the guys strange outfit... looks like somebody painted the thing, and disguised in a captains outfit for a foto, in sweden, or may be in germany with a swedish boat cause it is not far from sweden...

I have to admit that the guy driving the boat looks as laid back as someone cruising in their Hatteras 57 , not wave jumping a Donzi 16 . And again , how did he keep his cap on ?

Greg Guimond

09-20-2018, 03:32 PM

The 1964 Swede 16 is still over there with Tomas.

Axel, and MC, as I've looked at that Trost photo (that Mattyboy provided) over the three+ years I have worked on this research, I always thought that perhaps the picture did occur, but that someone super imposed it to make it look like it jumps the wave. The water spray pattern seems incorrect. I know that you have good skills Axel, I wonder if the boat and driver itself is placed flat (or flatter) on the water if the look makes more sense. I can see someone wanting to create "buzz" for Donzi by making the boat look to be jumping. Dr Trost looks a bit too calm going airborne! As markp said I'm also not that concerned with the Swedish sticker.

Greg Guimond

09-20-2018, 03:36 PM

......
Axel, Very interesting that Trost Inc. has closed its doors four years ago :frown: Back to Dr. Oskar Trost I found that he was very active in the Nordics race scene. Try and expand below and read closely. Maybe Lars will see this and comment as well.

axelkloehn

09-21-2018, 03:31 AM

markp

09-21-2018, 07:45 AM

Funny as these pictures are, they are edited fakes (from the red tint added to one of the Dr Trost pictures, to the one of him sitting on a trailer, etc). Having them in the historical thread is probably not the right place for them.

Greg Guimond

09-22-2018, 12:46 PM

As I look at that photoshop version of the hull on the trailer I'm having a harder and harder time thinking that the original shot showing the boat airborne was truly taken on a lake.

It looks more like a guy was at a boat show, got into a 16 and someone snapped a photo of him in full "boat show" clothing regalia. Hmmmmmmmmmmm

The attire would certainly fit into a Boat Show theme. Matty will know where he sourced that photo from.

Morgan's Cloud

09-22-2018, 01:42 PM

As I look at that photoshop version of the hull on the trailer I'm having a harder and harder time thinking that the original shot showing the boat airborne was truly taken on a lake.

It looks more like a guy was at a boat show, got into a 16 and someone snapped a photo of him in full "boat show" clothing regalia. Hmmmmmmmmmmm

And that was long before we had the digital camera wizardry that we do now.
Remember how incredibly creative they used to be at the National Inquirer (in spite of all the lawsuits ) ? :biggrin.:

axelkloehn

09-22-2018, 01:56 PM

It took me a few minutes to do that Photoshop fake...
Oskar Trost was a Donzi Dealer in the mid sixties here in Hamburg, we have the evidence with the ad I posted.
Only the ski sporter existed at that time.
If there is one or more shipped to Hamburg for a show or for sales purpose there must be a proof somewhere, Customer contract, customs declaration, shipping order or else, but where to search...?
The First customers are 80 or more years old now...

Greg Guimond

09-23-2018, 03:42 PM

Axel, the only thing that comes to my mind is to uncover the good Dr. Oskar Trost's obituary should there be one in any German newspaper archives. In that obit would be the names of his children at least, and perhaps grand kids. Running low on leads at this point!

But I have learned to be patient with my research for the 1964's over the last 3 years ............ and to keep poking around.

Greg Guimond

09-25-2018, 08:06 AM

Yes, Axel you have found him. Amazing work! Thank you. For final confirmation additional info is that the Son Andreas ran a boat building company here in the US which ended at least a decade ago. The name of the company was Platinum. In addition, Mrs. Trost was known to race with her husband as navigator in several of the big offshore races he competed in. This woman was a force for sure. You will see Ute Trost below in a major race in 1971 ............

Sunday, July 18, 1971, in waters between Italy and Corsica took place the tenth edition of the Viareggio-Bastia-Viareggio, a race that already had become a classic offshore event. The battle for the world title was already in full swing and in that year would have seen opposing the American Bill Wishnick and 1970 champion, Italian Vincenzo Balestrieri. The two had clashed since the first races in South America in January and before the Viareggio race, the score was in favor of Wishnick with three wins to two. The Boss of O'Nova of Wishnick had Mercruiser engines; Wishnick entrusted the engines to expert Bobby Moore.

MISS WD-40 – O. Trost/U. Trost – mono - Zarcos 31’ – R.Levi – 2 x BPM Vulcano 400 bhp

Greg Guimond

09-25-2018, 08:16 AM

I now believe that the black+white photo below was not taken in 1964 or 1965 at all, and that it was a manipulation unless Mattyboy comes forward with a source. I looked closely again at the stickers that were used on verified boats and the Donzi sticker in the B+W picture certainly looks to be different than the color photos. My opinion is that this was some type of promotional piece done after 1965. With this, the formidable Dr. Oskar Trost is being removed from the 1964 build list :frown:

Below are four photos of verified early 60's 16 Ski Sporter's ........... and then the fifth of the claimed Dr. Trost on Lake Constance in 1965

mattyboy

09-25-2018, 01:32 PM

I agree that it is best to maintain there privacy given what has gone on in there background. I will PM you with something.

I now believe that the black+white photo below was not taken in 1964 or 1965 at all, and that it was a manipulation unless Mattyboy comes forward with a source. I looked closely again at the stickers that were used on verified boats and the Donzi sticker in the B+W picture certainly looks to be different than the color photos. My opinion is that this was some type of promotional piece done after 1965. With this, the formidable Dr. Oskar Trost is being removed from the 1964 build list :frown:

Below are four photos of verified early 60's 16 Ski Sporter's ........... and then the fifth of the claimed Dr. Trost on Lake Constance in 1965

gotta luv being called into question

If your research was complete you will find this is not my picture or my creation it is a pic that made its rounds on social media back in 2015 and commented on by well known names in the offshore world I posted as it appeared on social media with the date and place taken

mattyboy

09-25-2018, 01:40 PM

The early Sweden flags were thought to be in deference to being powered by Volvo (a swedish company) as opposed to where they were shipping to.

I have seen early ford powered/eaton spin up drive boats with the Swedish pendant

Greg Guimond

09-25-2018, 01:49 PM

gotta luv being called into question

If your research was complete you will find this is not my picture or my creation it is a pic that made its rounds on social media back in 2015 and commented on by well known names in the offshore world I posted as it appeared on social media with the date and place taken

My apologies Matt, if I ever said it was your creation. I just asked for the source, which finally you have now given. Maybe Oliver K is sitting on a bread crumb/s for a jet black 16!

Greg Guimond

09-26-2018, 07:42 PM

Players in the '64 puzzle not yet questioned directly include --

Doc Magoon
Walt Walters
Frank Civitano
Toronto International Boat Show
Shepard Boats old records

The gents who were actually there 5 decades ago are dwindling .........

RIP the maritime icon Walt Walters.

And earlier this year, the major winning ocean racer (and later philanthropist) "Doc" Magoon, good friend of Don Aronow who would read the eulogy at Don's funeral, has passed away.

Frank Civitano, 65 now and in good health and who I have talked to numerous times, unfortunately lost all the records on his Dad's Donzi 16 and his other boats in Super Storm Sandy.

Greg Guimond

09-28-2018, 10:19 PM

.........
With Dr. Oskar Trost's 16 removed, the quest continues. Winter is right around the bend and still have some work to do on my list of the 16's built in 1964:

Hull 1. Original B+W Press Release boat – Photo shows the “long” inner strakes & Volvo 100 drive. Mike Aronow writes of taking a test run with his Dad in KOTBR. Date of B+W photo unknown, but must be snapped after May 5, and before October 5, 1964.
100% Confirmed

Hull 2. Teknikens Varld Magazine boat - White w/ Red deck stripe only. New "shortened" inner strakes & single thru hull exhaust in photo. No Grab Rail. Shipped to Volvo Sweden for tests which was likely hastened by the 10/1/64 Longshoreman's strike.
100% Confirmed

Hull 3. Jim Wynne driving boat - White w/ Red deck & red chine stripe. Speedo to right of helm. Inner strakes not clear but look to be "short" in photos. Drive ID'd as Volvo Aq200 Euro "loaner". No Deck Grab Rail. Photos thought to be taken Sept/Oct '64.
100% Confirmed

Hull 4. Allan Brown driving boat - White w/ Green deck stripe only - Ford Eaton 260 cu inch V8 165hp motor & Eaton flip up drive. No Deck Grab Rail. Again, color photo of both Brown and Wynne running side by side thought to be taken Sept/Oct 1964.
100% Confirmed

Hull 5. Jacksonville Boat Show boat - White w/ Blue deck stripe thru dash & blue chine stripe. Brownie at show on 11/13/64. Shown in Four Page Color Brochure with El Camino, & on Travel-Lift. First Aq200 production drive in ever shipped into USA - No Deck Grab Rail.
100% Confirmed

Hull 6. Bob Cox and Ed Joyce boat - No photo of hull at dealer Lauderdale Marina ever found so far. Initially they raced a Formula 233 then became the first Donzi dealer ever in Florida and the US. This hull had the "Hot" Volvo 110/100 package. Deck Grab Rail unknown. ID provided by F. Darwick.
100% Confirmed

Hull 7. Fred Darwick race boat - Invoice #67 dated 12/10/64 shows $3,095. Photo of hull marked with race #11 shows it as White w/ Green deck stripe & green chine stripe. "Hot" Volvo 110 (made 140hp) & special race Aq100 drive. No Deck Grab Rail.
100% Confirmed

Hull 8. David Ray boat - White w/ Blue deck stripe. Initial power also another "Hot" Volvo 110/100 package. Sold to David Ray directly by Don Aronow with Fred's help. Boat still exists in Merritt Island today under a different owner. Race Aq100 drive in still in storage today 2018. Boat had a custom water intake tube transom mounted.
100% Confirmed

Hull 9. New York Boat Show 16 – Color was white with a blue stripe. Show was Jan 13, 1965 in a blizzard. Could it have then continued North to the Shepherd boys or was an entirely different (and additional) '64 hull shipped up to Canada?
100% Confirmed

Hull 10. Second New York Boat Show 16 - Did it exist, get sold and sent South? Only Brownie would remember if there were two Ski Sporter’s in the booth next to the $8,000 green 19' Hornet. Donzi had two booths at the show.
90% - Brownie email last week recalls one or two, and Scott Bolts says two

Hull 11. Canada Shepherd Ltd boat - Was it solid yellow? woobs has made contact with Jim Hahn Jr., whose Dad managed Shepherd Boats at this time. They'll meet to review old Donzi partnership papers that still exist for added clues sometime in 2016.
50% - Pending review of the 50 year old cottage papers as TIBS show was a full month later than originally thought

Hull 12. All Black boat - Was this yet another totally different 16 or was the reporter calling it black when it was actually another dark color? Only one person in the world might know.
25% - Only one article refers to the black hull. Looking for others. Edit: Increasing to 50%. A very early "All Black" hull has been located! It is currently undergoing forensics.

Greg Guimond

09-28-2018, 10:34 PM

.....
The Shepherd boat as Hull #11 is OUT. After four years there are no details of any Ski Sporter's being at the Canada show at this point so I'm removing it from the 1964 build list.

12/7/97 3:40:31 PM Tim Morris; In 1975 I went on search for a Donzi. I located an excellent example in Muskoka (Canada) which proved to be one of the first (of 2) imported in 1965. The boat had and Eaton outdrive with added chain lift and an interceptor engine. Over the next few years I restored the hull and interior while updating the engine and drive to a 350 Volvo combination - the thing would leap out of the water. By 1986 I had become concerned for the safety of my children, then aged 3 and 2 due to the lack of interior freeboard. I sold it, went to Florida and purchased a new 1987 206.186.217.206

It turns out that the Toronto show (February 5th) was taking place at the same time as a large show in Maryland that I found. Would have been a lot easier to bring the NYC boats down to Maryland given they had to go back to Miami. The Chesapeake Bay Boat Show started Thursday Feb 4 and ran for six days.

The Miami boat show started on February 19, 1965.

Greg Guimond

09-28-2018, 10:44 PM

........
In a twist I wouldn't have expected, I now believe there could have been (4) boats at the January 1965 NYC show and (3) of those boats were Ski Sporter's. As was reported on in this newspaper article one of the three 16's was ....jet black. I always wondered how that could be but now I think I have proof of the boat "tucked back in the corner of the show".

Greg Guimond

09-28-2018, 10:59 PM

axelkloehn

10-01-2018, 07:25 AM

Greg, here is maybe another piece to your puzzle, Motor Boating march 1965 is mentioning a dark green Donzi 16' "Green Hornet" at the 1965 NY National Boat Show in feb 1965... that differs from the Gaffney Ledger report of a jet-black hull 16'... the mystery goes on :confused: I think they talk about a 19' Hornet, if I look at the $8000 pricetag...

mattyboy

10-01-2018, 07:45 AM

Axel

that is a typo should say 19 the pic is of a hornet

axelkloehn

10-01-2018, 07:55 AM

Yes... here it is! You cannot trust any newsperson...

mattyboy

10-01-2018, 08:05 AM

wonder how many reporters actually walked the show or just used photos and other press release material to write their articles? from the pics grumble green looks black no don't say it "fake news" LOL but this writer had his wires crossed the 16 was never marketed of 60 mph plus and the Hornet was never really called a 19 in the early days it was called the 7 litre but I bet at that show the 16 was all the buzz

axelkloehn

10-01-2018, 08:15 AM

Exactly! Greg, worst case scenario: the guy from Gaffney Ledger did not walk the show, he simply got two b/w pics, from the dark colored Hornet and from a 16s interior and he did not realize it is two different boats and wrote an article about a jet black 16 with an L-shape interior guessing from the pics...

mattyboy

10-01-2018, 01:46 PM

...............
Getting organized for the January 14, 1965 NYC boat show was hard for Don A and Brownie with the blizzard impacting the East Coast, but could one of the 16's they brought North be jet Black with a silver deck stripe? We know that Donzi had two booths at the 1965 NYC show and we also think that there was only (1) 19' Hornet present. I also believe that the green Hornet had a silver deck stripe showing that the factory had used silver gel in 1964.

After four years of working on the timeline I'm 50% confident this is the jet black 16 referenced in the one article. Still some more work to do on it.

I first made contact with the current owner of the black 16 back in February 2018. Have been trading info back and forth since then putting puzzle pieces together slowly.

I still think they weren't shooting gel stripes on the real early boats, someone is going to have to explain to my HOW they could shoot stripes in gel at the very beginning with out the need for pinstripes to mask the gel bleed on the edge where the two colors meet BUT well later when they went to mass production and multi color layouts in the 70s they had to use pinstripes on the stripe edges due to bleed??????

in my mind the early boats were one color hulls and one color decks in GEL with painted stripes (deck and or boot)

markp

10-01-2018, 02:23 PM

I still think they weren't shooting gel stripes on the real early boats, someone is going to have to explain to my HOW they could shoot stripes in gel at the very beginning with out the need for pinstripes to mask the gel bleed on the edge where the two colors meet BUT well later when they went to mass production and multi color layouts in the 70s they had to use pinstripes on the stripe edges due to bleed??????

in my mind the early boats were one color hulls and one color decks in GEL with painted stripes (deck and or boot)

Does the stripe being of gel or paint matter? If we find out for 100% certainly it is one or the other of them, what does that mean?

mattyboy

10-01-2018, 03:42 PM

Does the stripe being of gel or paint matter? If we find out for 100% certainly it is one or the other of them, what does that mean?

yes it does construction methods hardware and finish work and features can lead to helping Identifying the era in which the boat was constructed

so somewhere along the line they switched from paint to gel and the necessity of pin stripes on the deck stripe came about( my early 67 16 had a gel deck stripe and needed pinstripes the early 16 were advertized as white with blue green red stripes with a matching interior. this makes production easier of course they could do other colors but that would lead to delay in production . so later in 65 and on you see newer combos coming out the barbados blue and white tangerine and so on. at the start i am sure they wanted make production easy and fast this is how cig still does it today all white gel boat and then they paint it like you want it. think about it if have to lay down the deck strip first I have already decided what color the boat is going be and what interior goes in it before the glass hits the mold. if they are all white I can then send it to the booth and grab an interior after it comes out of the mold. then of course they take off like hotcakes and they go colors galore

so if you are trying to nail down a timeline without documentation you have to look at everything. an example the hull listed in this thread as hull number 4 sam's boat was a very early boat but reviewing the serial numbers on the drive put it after hull 55( which is documented)

Greg Guimond

10-01-2018, 04:33 PM

...........
Matty, did you ever get a bead over the years on what exact month in 1965 the non Wonder White or full monochrome colored Ski Sporter 16 models would have first been produced and sold?

markp

10-01-2018, 06:57 PM

yes it does construction methods hardware and finish work and features can lead to helping Identifying the era in which the boat was constructed

so somewhere along the line they switched from paint to gel and the necessity of pin stripes on the deck stripe came about( my early 67 16 had a gel deck stripe and needed pinstripes the early 16 were advertized as white with blue green red stripes with a matching interior. this makes production easier of course they could do other colors but that would lead to delay in production . so later in 65 and on you see newer combos coming out the barbados blue and white tangerine and so on. at the start i am sure they wanted make production easy and fast this is how cig still does it today all white gel boat and then they paint it like you want it. think about it if have to lay down the deck strip first I have already decided what color the boat is going be and what interior goes in it before the glass hits the mold. if they are all white I can then send it to the booth and grab an interior after it comes out of the mold. then of course they take off like hotcakes and they go colors galore

so if you are trying to nail down a timeline without documentation you have to look at everything. an example the hull listed in this thread as hull number 4 sam's boat was a very early boat but reviewing the serial numbers on the drive put it after hull 55( which is documented)

So the very early Donzi's would have a painted stripe then.

Regarding the serial numbers of drives, the linkage of when an outdrive was produced by the outdrive company and when and which hull at Donzi it went on is not certain to be in order.

mattyboy

10-01-2018, 07:06 PM

So the very early Donzi's would have a painted stripe then.

Regarding the serial numbers of drives, the linkage of when an outdrive was produced by the outdrive company and when and which hull at Donzi it went on is not certain to be in order.

the serial numbers might not be sequential but they are close there was not a huge storage facility at 188th street so drives were not sitting around gathering dust.

mattyboy

10-01-2018, 07:39 PM

...........
Matty, did you ever get a bead over the years on what exact month in 1965 the non Wonder White or full monochrome colored Ski Sporter 16 models would have first been produced and sold?

i would say the boating cover boat is the one of first april of 1965 that pic and others from that shoot wind up in an A&F catalog for the upcoming calendar year 66 and sometime in 65 the yellow and red 16 go in the window. the first ones were the reverse of the white ones so the boating cover boat is probably one of the first ones with a white interior. or an all red boat red interior and white stripes or all green or all blue.

I have info on an old demo that the colors match the boating cover boat marked old demo but no real way to validate but the numbers on it are way out of sequence when it is finally sold in 67 compared to boats around it

Greg Guimond

10-01-2018, 08:26 PM

i would say the boating cover boat is the one of first april of 1965 that pic and others from that shoot wind up in an A&F catalog for the upcoming calendar year 66 and sometime in 65 the yellow and red 16 go in the window. the first ones were the reverse of the white ones so the boating cover boat is probably one of the first ones with a white interior. or an all red boat red interior and white stripes or all green or all blue.

I have info on an old demo that the colors match the boating cover boat marked old demo but no real way to validate but the numbers on it are way out of sequence when it is finally sold in 67 compared to boats around it

April, 1965 is interesting, gotcha.

mattyboy

10-01-2018, 08:31 PM

April, 1965 is interesting, gotcha.

spring of 65 so it appears in june 65 boating

Greg Guimond

10-01-2018, 08:32 PM

.......
We all know that the testing of the 16's that occurred at Dinner Key for the "June 1965 Boating Magazine" article took place on April 15, 1965 and that one of the two boats they tested was the all red 16 that would later appear on the cover of that magazine. If the test took place on April 15, 1965 that tells us that the factory was producing solid color Ski Sporter's easily in mid to late March, 1965.

Greg Guimond

10-01-2018, 08:35 PM

......
Matty,
Do you think that this Ski Sporter 16 in Christina Blue below could have been a late March, 1965 build?

mattyboy

10-02-2018, 07:13 AM

hard to say without some more info or numbers if i remember correctly that boat had a ton of decals on the side that weren't factory one being the Holman Moody logo so it could be a late 65 or early 66 also

and then later on in 66 they take the style clue from 007 and come up with the ICONIC look of what a donzi classic is the white deck over a contrasting solid hull with contrasting stripes

Greg Guimond

10-02-2018, 11:36 AM

I really want to stick with the 1964 builds but here is a photo of what was on the floor on the New York Show from Donzi one year later in January of 1966. You can see that a booth held two boats, and that in the earlier 1965 show Donzi had two booths so I'm still thinking that they brought 4 boats in total to the January 1965 New York show. We also know that they could gel in solid colors in 1964 as the Hornet was solid green.

Was there a jet black 16 Ski Sporter in one of those booths on January 14th, 1965 :screwy:

In fact, the boats that Donzi wanted to be shown had to be in front of the venue on January 12th actually based on the article below.

axelkloehn

10-04-2018, 12:43 AM

Greg Guimond

10-04-2018, 06:24 AM

This ad is from Motor Boating January 1965 announcing the New York Boat Show, now you need to find out how much space booth D205 and 212 offered.

Greg, did you have the chance to chat with Allan Brown? We are all just talking about the early 60ies but he was in the scene and he was Dons sales manager! He should be able to give decent information even if it is more than 50 years ago... regarless of his outstanding career I noticed he is very helpful and friendly. Should be a good chance to get some answers.

Axel, the size of the two booths is a big piece but so far nothing. Those two booths were on the 4th floor of the NY Coliseum. I have contacted the show organizers but there records do not go back that far. I would have thought that I could dig up an "Official Directory" for 1965 but you have located Adreas Trost quicker!

Also Yes, I have talked with Brownie on several occasions. He has given some great info BUT he could not remember what was in the booth in January 1965 with certainty. He did indicate that all the stripes on the boats in 1964 were done in the gelcoat and were not painted. For years folks thought that the deck stripes could have been painted.

The jet black Ski Sporter has a gel coat deck stripe in Silver. It was covered under many coats of paint! The 19' Hornet in the booth on January 15, 1965 also had a deck stripe confirmed in Silver so that is a big clue to tie it to a 16 hull built in 1964.

Greg Guimond

10-04-2018, 06:45 AM

The other big clue that the jet black 16 has is what looks like a wooden plate glassed over what would have been for the water intake in the bottom of the hull. It was a Volvo boat and the early Volvo 100 drive, as well as the later Volvo 100 "B" drive needed this keel intake for cooling water. Another decent piece to it being a 1964 build. The cover plate is on the starboard side.

In the very early January 1964 Motor Boating ad below the benefits of the later "B" 100 model Cone Clutch drive matched to the 4 cylinder 110 motor are flogged in the press.

In the 3rd photo below we see the full line-up of Volvo Marine motors and drives offered in Europe only. The foreign version of this provided a date of September, 1964. This Euro line up shows the 100 drives as well as the 200 drive mated to a Volvo V8 that was offered in Europe only in 1964.

Greg Guimond

10-04-2018, 07:02 AM

yes it does construction methods hardware and finish work and features can lead to helping Identifying the era in which the boat was constructed

so somewhere along the line they switched from paint to gel and the necessity of pin stripes on the deck stripe came about( my early 67 16 had a gel deck stripe and needed pinstripes the early 16 were advertized as white with blue green red stripes with a matching interior. this makes production easier of course they could do other colors but that would lead to delay in production . so later in 65 and on you see newer combos coming out the barbados blue and white tangerine and so on. at the start i am sure they wanted make production easy and fast this is how cig still does it today all white gel boat and then they paint it like you want it. think about it if have to lay down the deck strip first I have already decided what color the boat is going be and what interior goes in it before the glass hits the mold. if they are all white I can then send it to the booth and grab an interior after it comes out of the mold. then of course they take off like hotcakes and they go colors galore

so if you are trying to nail down a timeline without documentation you have to look at everything. an example the hull listed in this thread as hull number 4 sam's boat was a very early boat but reviewing the serial numbers on the drive put it after hull 55( which is documented)

Matty, it looks like the deck stripe colors were all done "in the gel" while the water line stripes were probably painted if the customer wanted that on a 1964 build.

Frank Civitano also said that deck stripes were done in the gel coat.

mattyboy

10-04-2018, 07:47 AM

Matty, it looks like the deck stripe colors were all done "in the gel" while the water line stripes were probably painted if the customer wanted that on a 1964 build.

Frank Civitano also said that deck stripes were done in the gel coat.

Then his boat had pin stripes along the deck stripe,

still going to have to explain how they could do a gel stripe in 64 with a clean crisp line with no bleed but not be able to do that 10 years later in 74?????????????????????

Greg Guimond

10-04-2018, 02:04 PM

Then his boat had pin stripes along the deck stripe,

still going to have to explain how they could do a gel stripe in 64 with a clean crisp line with no bleed but not be able to do that 10 years later in 74?????????????????????

I dunno but we have two 16 boats that show gel only deck stripes and then Brownie saying that is the way they did it back in 1964, I'd give him a jingle to explain it to you!

mattyboy

10-04-2018, 02:18 PM

I dunno but we have two 16 boats that show gel only deck stripes and then Brownie saying that is the way they did it back in 1964, I'd give him a jingle to explain it to you!

will do I do have a bunch of questions for him

Greg Guimond

10-04-2018, 02:50 PM

mattyboy

10-04-2018, 03:06 PM

This one is a confirmed 1965 and it has the pin stripes in addition to the deck stripe that you are talking about but on the 1964 builds I've never heard of any pinstripes. I was always under the impression that laying down color in the gel coat was actually easier to do than you'd think but maybe as the years went on they alternated depending on the colors.

no Greg not the pinstripes I was talking about they did do stripes like that for a while Roy Farmer's nephew came up to Lake George with one of Roy's boats an older 16 all green with white stripes just like that .

what I mean is the vinyl pinstripes( usually black) that run along the deck stripe that were added to cover the gel bleed between the deck stripe color and the deck color

my 67 had them in black and another 67 I know had them but they were replaced to match the stripe color

I have pics somewhere of my 16

here they are on a mid 70's 18

Greg Guimond

10-04-2018, 03:17 PM

Here's another super early hull running around ........

Greg Guimond

10-04-2018, 03:23 PM

And another group of early 16's ................

mattyboy

10-04-2018, 03:27 PM

the 67s

mattyboy

10-04-2018, 03:34 PM

And another group of early 16's ................

yes at the plant in 65 from the video of a customer picking up their 16 that is a neat video

Greg Guimond

10-04-2018, 05:28 PM

.........
With the removal of the Shepherd hull from the list, now it's looking like (11) Ski Sporter's built in 1964 with some more work to do on the Jet Black 16.

Greg Guimond

10-04-2018, 05:33 PM

The power could be Volvo 110/100, Volvo 110/100b, Volvo Race, or Volvo 110/200

Greg Guimond

10-04-2018, 05:35 PM

Or Eaton in 165hp format ..............

Greg Guimond

10-04-2018, 07:29 PM

..........
And still it comes down to one reporter making a comment about a Jet Black 16 at the 1965 Boat Show in NYC

axelkloehn

10-05-2018, 12:29 AM

Greg Guimond

10-05-2018, 07:00 AM

It is surprising me Brownie does not remember if they built and shipped a black skisporter to the show jan 1965, even if it is 50 years ago it would have been the only all black skisporter they built and it was just 2-4 boats for the show and it was one of the first shows they displayed their boats... may be he was not so involved at that time, that would explain why he is guessing they were all done in gelcoat...

Axel, thinking it through I agree with you. How could you NOT remember this? Also, we know that Brownie was extremely involved at that point, so even more reason that he would remember this black one being at the show on January 15, 1965. I also tried to find any other writers that talked about the jet black one and could not find any, not one more article.

Hmmmm. As you had said maybe this writer took pieces of info from other writers to construct his column. Who is this man George Rounds, and how did he get there! :confused:

markp

10-05-2018, 09:56 AM

George Rounds was the technical editor of "Boating Industry" in the 1960's. Here is another article he wrote in Motorboating, November 1965. Later in his career (1988) he was the executive secretary of the National Sailing Industry Association.

87166

Morgan's Cloud

10-05-2018, 12:04 PM

Greg Guimond

10-05-2018, 08:28 PM

Let's not be too hard on Brownie. Although some might be surprised , or more like disappointed , that he can't recall those details from the mid 60's you have to admit that his brain is so crammed with stuff , some inconsequential and lots very significant and now in his 80's that it's not surprising that he can't recall everything from back then .
I once jokingly asked him if he could remember overseeing the build of my boat knowing the type of questions he gets asked. Of course his reply was exactly what I thought it would be . What a guy . I hope he's around for many more years .

100% agree MC. Mr. Brown is a living legend.

I know some of you may know him well but I'm grateful that he even helps me with answers here and there given what he has seen and done over 5 decades of major marine accomplishments. The people he's interacted with, raced with, helped and had fun with is a truly amazing list. He was rubbing elbows with royalty and rogues before I was even born.

And btw, if Brownie says the deck stripe on a 1964 Ski Sporter 16 was gelcoat............you can take that to the bank!

Edit 10-8-18; I asked Fred Darwick and he confirmed that the deck stripes on his two 1964 16's were gel as well.

Greg Guimond

10-07-2018, 09:57 AM

......
Weather stinks, so I decided to do some more digging around for the only comments I could find on which Donzi's were in the two booths on the 4th Floor of the Jan 1965 NY Show.

Greg Guimond

10-07-2018, 10:17 AM

.........
Then I took a look at how the days laid out back in 1965 .........

Greg Guimond

10-07-2018, 06:29 PM

........
Then I looked at which hulls were at the Maryland boat show one week after NYC ....... a 19 Hornet and a 16 Ski Sporter.

Makes perfect sense that they brought the New York display boats a few hours south to show them at the Maryland show a week later.

Greg Guimond

10-07-2018, 07:17 PM

............
And finally, a copy of the 1966 National Boat Show floor plan came in showing the location of the two booths Donzi had for display. Not 1965, but I can't imagine it changed in 1966.

Greg Guimond

10-07-2018, 08:32 PM

Greg Guimond

10-10-2018, 11:23 AM

.........

If you take a close look at the New York Coliseum boat show floor plan below, you can make a rough estimate of booth sizes on the 4th Floor. I figured openings for the restrooms would be 5' wide as a swinging door back then would need to be 4' wide hinged. If the opening is about 5' wide then you can kinda figure out that the "D" booth spaces are roughly 25' deep and 20' wide. Then look at a couple of the display sailboat ads I attached below and the booths they are perched in, and this seems to line up. Then I compared those booths to the D205 and D212 booths that Donzi had gotten last minute in the lower right corner. Hmmmm.

To me there is no way that Donzi had just (1) Hornet and (1) Ski Sporter at the 1965 boat show given the amount of space they had.

mattyboy

10-11-2018, 07:58 AM

no 28 at the 65 show? would think there would be one model each of the" original 3" the 28 might not be the flash of the new 16 or 19 as far as press coverage nice find on the show program

Greg Guimond

10-11-2018, 08:21 AM

no 28 at the 65 show? would think there would be one model each of the" original 3" the 28 might not be the flash of the new 16 or 19 as far as press coverage nice find on the show program

Have you ever asked anyone about that or uncovered anything written over the years? Have you asked Brownie?

mattyboy

10-11-2018, 08:27 PM

yup got the answer AND my book THANKS Brownie !!!!
no 28s at the show

Greg Guimond

10-12-2018, 03:38 PM

Not having a 28 in the booth makes sense as each of the 28's was probably actively racing at that time. There were (5) 28's entered in the 1965 Sam Griffith Memorial race. I bet that was all they had ever made up to that point. Here is an interview that Wishnik gave. It tells us that Don A was in the booth in NYC along with Brownie. I also bet there was someone from Shongut Marine. The picture of the 19 Hornet shows that it is smack up against a neighboring booth that looks to be a sailboat. Onward.

Greg Guimond

10-12-2018, 03:47 PM

Meanwhile back to the Jet Black 16.

I did dig up a second newspaper that ran the same article but not until a full month later which is odd.

I also found two for sale ads for jet black 16's that appear in late 1966. The low price on it tells me that they are selling a used boat, perhaps one from the prior year even.

Greg Guimond

10-12-2018, 03:59 PM

.............

And here in a note from Mr. Brown I lost sight of, is confirmation that they DID build an all black 16 back in the day. I wonder if the boat he mentions is the same boat that has been uncovered with the Silver gelcoat stripe hidden under the red paint. Looks like a big puzzle piece potentially.

mattyboy

10-13-2018, 09:34 AM

Greg Guimond

10-13-2018, 10:02 AM

going thru a lot of print articles and books there are a lot of direct contradictions and mis- information hard to tell what is correct

a lot depends on how and when it is remembered and where urban legends start working into the story

so now where did the name Donzi come from ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????

I have not found that, not the info I research. That may be what you have found across all the years Donzi's were built but the info I've dug up specific to the 1964 builds has been pretty accurate. Plus two people are still alive who were there. A lot depends on your sources and how you ask the questions, also you have to stay with it and be patient with leads.

Examples ......

Twice the number of 16's built in 1964 than originally thought
Deck stripes were gel, not paint
Aq200 drives were regular production and readily available in Europe in late 1963
Jacksonville Show 16 was not the first 16 built
Solid color 16's were built way earlier than originally thought. Two in fact confirmed built early February, 1965

The only blatant mess-up so far has been the 19 Hornet being called a 16 Ski Sporter. The second possible oddball (a big one) is the comments on the jet black 16 from only one writer ever, 'ol George Rounds. It is strange though how he describes the lounge seating. It would be hard to describe lounge Ski Sporter seating when you are looking at the 19 Hornet.

I have now 100% confirmation of the black Ski Sporter existing at the Donzi factory on February 4, 1965 but still do not have the NY boat show tied in.

Greg Guimond

10-13-2018, 10:06 AM

...........
Winter is coming ...........

Greg Guimond

10-13-2018, 10:14 AM

............

mattyboy

10-13-2018, 10:44 AM

Greg

yes for the most part you seem correct on the timeline

Brownie said that there were 2 boats at the 65 show in NYC they had a 16 and the green hornet 19

in your Billy Wishnick post he mentions how donzi got it's name which contradicts other print stories on how the name was arrived at so who is right??

Brownie( from his book) also recalls that the aq 200 was in short supply in the early days due to start up in america that's why they had more eatons at first yes there were some around but not enough to keep up with the demand.

do we have any sales invoices yet?

Morgan's Cloud

10-13-2018, 11:18 AM

Actually , I thought the story about how the name Donzi came about was sorted out once and for all in Michael Aronow's book. And contrary to the oft repeated story it had nothing to do with any secretary or her nickname for Don.

mattyboy

10-13-2018, 11:39 AM

Greg Guimond

10-14-2018, 07:45 AM

mattyboy

10-14-2018, 09:51 AM

I have the build card for what I think is the red test boat/ A&F boat with Don from 65 but without the boat to confirm is is very much speculation it was renumbered when it was sold and it shows a very early serial number for the drive compared to other boats at the time marked as old demo boat.. the other early boat known to have an invoice is TOMRON with hull 55 which I have some correspondence from him from the dealer to donzi from feb of 65 but not the invoice

mattyboy

10-14-2018, 10:09 AM

this has been posted before the letter leading up to the order for hull 55 and TOMRONS info this is the earliest confirmed info I have seen supported by paperwork the other boats the club has seen which are said to be early single digit hulls that don't fit via built info or serial numbers. one member had what they thought was hull 23 which the build info seemed to be correct but could never be confirmed with hull markings or original paperwork that was an early 65 boat
so has a benchmark is the info on hull 55 the Sam Ballinger boat said to be hull 4 was measured against that benchmark and was found to be an early 65 somewhere after hull 55. the boat was all original except for a paint job and some other small items . and in all of this remember the build numbers were inflated in this timeline for the sale to teleflex
but if you take the numbers for what they are at the time hull 136 is ordered they and taken 199 orders to that point so they had orders for 63 non 16 boats

Greg Guimond

10-14-2018, 10:38 AM

Greg Guimond

10-14-2018, 10:40 AM

Why don't you just get a hold of Thomas over in Sweden and have him send you a copy of the factory Invoice he has for his 16 hull #55 ? I need that for what I am working on. I know that you or one of the other LGDC guys maintain contact with him.

Thomas Rönnberg

Greg Guimond

10-14-2018, 10:46 AM

.............the other early boat known to have an invoice is TOMRON with hull #55 which I have some correspondence from him from the dealer to donzi from feb of 65 but not the invoice

He may be over in Monaco, look there as well.

Greg Guimond

10-14-2018, 09:03 PM

I have the build card for what I think is the red test boat/ A&F boat with Don from 65 but without the boat to confirm, it is very much speculation. it was renumbered when it was sold and it shows a very early serial number for the drive compared to other boats at the time marked as old demo boat.

Agree on the drive number. Also, the Serial# for the engine also does not seem to make sense if it was the April 1965 test boat used at Dinner Key.

mattyboy

10-17-2018, 07:58 AM

.........

So this is the earliest actual printed invoice you have in your archive Matty? July 1965 Hull #136 100% numbers matching boat. Those prices must be wholesale dealer amounts.

Engine Serial Number; GT90L526036 decode

G = 2 Barrel, Downdraft, Aluminum Intake Manifold
T = Displacement 260 CuIn
90 = Type of Reverse Gear (there were several reverse gears, 90=IO, 84-85=Bobtail)
L = Rotation L - Left Hand Rotation (looking from the flywheel over the engine - also stamped on the motor as LH w/CuIn just below)
5 = Build Year 1965

26036 = Sequenced Serial Number

Greg

I have seen some discussion on boating forums about the decode with differing info would a 1965 165 hp motor be a 260 or a 289?
the 260 was dropped at the end of 64 by ford so I guess eaton may have had stock but a see the "T" going into 1966 boats would they have had that much stock??? That is one of the differences i see the T is HP rating by some and displacement by others?

also I see some decodes that do not mention a year again I see new boats in 1966 getting serial number engines that start with a 7
so could a motor built in 67 get into a new boat built before 1967??

just not sure anymore

so are there any earlier original documented verified hulls before 55?

also on the red demo boat i would imagine if they sold an older worn in demo boat they would drop a new motor in it but not the drive so the serial number on the motor may be possible again without the boat all speculation. sad part is most of the early boats didn't survive they were just to light and weak for the rigors of v8 power, the bottoms fell out and only a few were rebuilt or cared for by the original owners

Greg Guimond

10-18-2018, 06:49 PM

I have the build card for what I think is the red test boat/ A&F boat with Don from 65 but without the boat to confirm is is very much speculation. it was renumbered when it was sold and it shows a very early serial number for the drive compared to other boats at the time marked as old demo boat............

I'm not sure, but we know that the Dinner Key test was done on April 15, 1965 and that the red hull had "a lot of miles". Could that demo boat have popped out of the mold in 1964?

Putting the engine aside for a moment because as you said it makes sense that a new motor would get dropped in, every Eaton outdrive in my timeline ends in L47 yet this one ends in R26 on your build card below. Have you ever been able to determine what R26 correlates to Matty? I have never seen R26 come up before. Thoughts?

Greg Guimond

10-18-2018, 07:46 PM

...........
Meanwhile back to hulls that can be confirmed seeing as no one seems to be able to find Thomas and actually get him to send a copy of the factory invoice for Ski Sporter Hull #55.

Wait, there seems to be an extra digit in his motor decode. Thomas, were are you 15 years later?

Greg Guimond

10-20-2018, 08:09 AM

..............

Greg Guimond

10-20-2018, 08:10 AM

And while Brownie is up in NYC freezing his tail off at the Boat Show, Bob Cox of Lauderdale Marina is running around in a Ski Sporter.

This fills out the the existence of Bob Cox's personal boat, 16 Hull #6 in the Timeline.

axelkloehn

10-25-2018, 05:04 AM

axelkloehn

10-25-2018, 06:16 AM

I have found no old plans from the Coliseum but I measured the corner at the Columbus Circle to West 60 street and it has about 81 ft in your floor plan, when I check google earth and the corner from the Time warner building at the same location this one has a bit more, 115 ft, but this building seems bigger and closer to the roads, so I did an overlay and found out I must be pretty close with my measurements...

Greg Guimond

10-27-2018, 07:22 AM

Greg

I personally don't think there was so much space given at the New York Boat show 1965 in the Coliseum. I checked Wikipedia info and there was mentioned a 150 by 150ft square in the center for large displays, when I transfer that to your floor plans you will find for example booth 173/188 together were about 24ft long, perfect for a 21 or 24ft sailboat. The add for the sailboat booth D192 is may be missing the information it is booth 192 AND booth 201 which is again 24ft long. When I check old videos from the 1966 boatshow you can see the show was packed with boats close together which matches my CAD examinations.
I put in my CAD software a Donzi with 16ft and with 19ft at booth 205/212 and you can see there is no more space for another boat, so I think there were only two boats at the show 1965 which is exactly what Brownie said. The drawings are in 1/10th scale...

I really love your chase for the '64 hulls, very exciting thread to follow! Thanks for your work!

Axel, incredible work you have done!

Interesting to see the true CAD overlay in the booth/s on the 4th floor. Very precise my friend. Also, when I now look at your overlay and then take a look at the photo of the Hornet in the booth back in January 1965 it provides a visual to what you indicate, that the boats were PACKED in close. I now think that the same reporter that wrongly called the 19' Hornet a 16 was the guy who gave bad info on the jet black 16 in the booth.

Greg Guimond

10-27-2018, 07:31 AM

.............
In fact, it looks like from the photo the 19 Hornet instead was tight to its neighbors booth and the 16 closer to the public walk. Thanks for your efforts.

Greg Guimond

10-27-2018, 07:39 AM

............
A "demerit" to George Rounds for taking what some other reporter fed him and not seeing it with his own eyes, or at least fact checking it. Another guy who does not do full research.

No jet black 16 Ski Sporter was ever at the January 15, 1965 Boat Show.

Greg Guimond

10-27-2018, 07:43 AM

yes at the plant in 65 from the video of a customer picking up their 16 that is a neat video

That is not 1965 Matty, it is filmed in 1966, most likely right after the Miami Boat Show. Look more closely.

https://vimeo.com/187102797

Greg Guimond

10-27-2018, 08:09 AM

...........

Never before found, here is a factory color chart that has been date validated to January 1965 with the selection you could get.

Edit: No date stamp on the back of the page so removed picture

Greg Guimond

10-28-2018, 02:37 PM

......
When Don Aronow sold Formula it looks like he was using the same 3 spoke steering wheel in the 233 that he would then decide to also use in the 1964 Ski Sporter 16's.

Morgan's Cloud

10-28-2018, 03:27 PM

mattyboy

10-28-2018, 04:27 PM

OK , I've got a question .
When Don sold Donzi to Teleflex and then later when Teleflex sold out to the Chisholms did the sequence of hull numbers stay exactly intact and sequential ?
Not bringing the supposed 'fudging of numbers to inflate sales thing' into discussion but when Teleflex bought out Don , if he was on hull number (say) 16-598 was the first boat built under Teleflex ownership then 16-599 ?
And then when the Chlisholms came along , if Teleflex was at (say) 16-900 did the first Chisholm boat become C16-901 ?
I guess from what I've read so far there's likely the possibility that there was 'leftover' not yet made boats from Don's ownership that were inherited by Teleflex that may confuse the timeline of production numbers.

MC yes they were sequential up thru the Staples ownership teleflex started the true documentation of the build cards .

axelkloehn

10-29-2018, 05:20 AM

......
When Don Aronow sold Formula it looks like he was using the same 3 spoke steering wheel in the 233 that he would then decide to also use in the 1964 Ski Sporter 16's.

Standard Covico... amazing it is still available...!

mattyboy

10-29-2018, 08:14 AM

OK , I've got a question .
When Don sold Donzi to Teleflex and then later when Teleflex sold out to the Chisholms did the sequence of hull numbers stay exactly intact and sequential ?
Not bringing the supposed 'fudging of numbers to inflate sales thing' into discussion but when Teleflex bought out Don , if he was on hull number (say) 16-598 was the first boat built under Teleflex ownership then 16-599 ?
And then when the Chlisholms came along , if Teleflex was at (say) 16-900 did the first Chisholm boat become C16-901 ?
I guess from what I've read so far there's likely the possibility that there was 'leftover' not yet made boats from Don's ownership that were inherited by Teleflex that may confuse the timeline of production numbers.

MC with the inflated numbers for the teleflex sale if Don said they had built XX or XXX 16s teleflex picked up right there XX+1 or XXX+1 and so thru teleflex '65 to Chisholm '68 to Staples'85 some time in the OMC 88ish they gave up the running total and started numbering with in the model year so you have hull one of model year then a hull one of next model year

Morgan's Cloud

10-31-2018, 11:51 AM

MC yes they were sequential up thru the Staples ownership teleflex started the true documentation of the build cards .

The evolution of the HIN is quite interesting from a Donzi standpoint.
Obviously , the original system in the beginning was as simple as it could have been , except it didn't include the build date.
As a flip side example the HIN on our Mag 25 tells you the hull length and the date it came out of the mold but not its sequence in production .
And nowadays the new way of doing it seems to have a plethora of information way beyond production date and size encoded in it . 'TMI' as they now say .. the only problem is decoding them .

Greg Guimond

11-03-2018, 06:53 PM

............
Ok, back to the Salt Mines. The latest version of my list of 16 Ski Sporters built in 1964 with some new updates.

Based on the lack of any additional written magazine info, Axel's excellent work on the physical booth dimensions, and the email that Matty got back from AB, it looks like there was never a black 16 actually shown at the 1965 National Boat Show in NYC. However there's still a marginal chance that the black 16 hull that's been located came out of the mold by January 1, 1965. I have full verification from Brownie on 8/25/18 (attached below) that they did build an all black one. Then, a mystery second source has just been found that physically saw the jet black hull in the Donzi factory on February 4th, 1965. When interviewed the gentleman remembered it like it was yesterday, including indicating that the finish quality of the black gel coat was lacking and that it had a silver deck stripe.

Four weeks is pretty long gap to figure out so somewhat suspect.
..........

Hull 1. Original B+W Press Release boat – Photo shows the “long” inner strakes & Volvo 100 drive. Mike Aronow writes of taking a test run with his Dad in his book KOTBR. Date of B+W photo unknown, but must be snapped after May 5, and before October 5, 1964.
100% Confirmed

Hull 2. Teknikens Varld Magazine boat - White w/ Red deck stripe only. New "shortened" inner strakes & single thru hull exhaust in photo. No Grab Rail. Boat was shipped to Volvo HQ in Sweden for tests which was likely hastened by the 10/1/64 Longshoreman's strike.
100% Confirmed

Hull 3. Jim Wynne driving boat - White w/ Red deck stripe & red chine stripe. Speedo to right of helm. Inner strakes not clear but look to be "short" in photos. Drive ID'd as Volvo Aq200 Euro "loaner" which was the first Aq200 test drive to make it into the US market. No Deck Grab Rail. Photos thought to be taken Sept/Oct '64.
100% Confirmed

Hull 4. Allan Brown driving boat - White w/ Green deck stripe only - Ford Eaton 260 cu inch V8 165hp motor & Eaton flip up drive. No Deck Grab Rail. Again, the color photograph of both Brown and Wynne running side by side thought to be taken Sept/Oct 1964.
100% Confirmed

Hull 5. Jacksonville Boat Show boat - White w/ Blue deck stripe thru dash & blue chine stripe. Brownie at show on 11/13/64. Shown in Four Page Color Brochure with El Camino, & on Travel-Lift. First Aq200 production drive ever shown in USA - No Deck Grab Rail. ID provided by A. Brown.
100% Confirmed

Hull 6. Bob Cox and Ed Joyce boat - No photo of hull at dealer Lauderdale Marina ever found so far. Initially they raced a Formula 233 then became the first Donzi dealer ever in Florida and the US. This hull had the "Hot" Volvo 110/100 package. Deck Grab Rail unknown. ID provided by F. Darwick. Jim Giannell tests it with Bob Cox on January 29, 1965.
100% Confirmed

Hull 7. Fred Darwick race boat - Invoice #67 dated 12/10/64 shows $3,095. Photo of hull marked with race #11 shows it as White w/ Green deck stripe & green chine stripe. "Hot" Volvo 110 (made 140hp) & special race Aq100 drive. No Deck Grab Rail.
100% Confirmed

Hull 8. David Ray boat - White w/ Blue deck stripe. Initial power also another "Hot" Volvo 110/100 package. Sold to David Ray directly by Don Aronow with Fred's help. Boat still exists in Merritt Island today under a different owner. Race Aq100 drive in still in storage today 2018. Boat had a custom water intake tube transom mounted.
100% Confirmed

Hull 9. New York Boat Show 16 – Color was white with a blue stripe. Show started Jan 13, 1965 in a blizzard. Could it have then continued North to the Shepherd boys or was an entirely different '64 hull shipped up to Canada? No, this boat never went to Canada and was most likely shown at the "Chesapeake Bay Boat Show" in Maryland which started Feb 4.
100% Confirmed

Hull 10. Second New York Boat Show 16 - Did it exist, get sold and sent South? Only Brownie would remember if there were two Ski Sporter’s in the booth next to the $8,000 green 19' Hornet. Donzi had two booths at the show on the 4th Floor.
50% - Brownie 2017 email recalls one or two, and Scott Bolts says two but physical layout of the booths would indicate one

Hull 11. All Black boat - Initially revealed and discussed in a single newspaper article talking about a jet black 16 at the January, 1965 New York Boat Show. This led to inclusion in the '64 Build List. Only that one article published in February refers to a black 16 hull so confidence is 25% Edit: Increasing to 50% a very early "All Black" hull has been located and is undergoing forensics. Second Edit: Confirmation that boat was present at Donzi's Miami factory on February 4, 1965 but was never at NY Boat Show. All black with a silver deck stripe.
75% - 4 week gap still suspect

Greg Guimond

11-03-2018, 07:32 PM

..............
And then, just when I think the work is done for the 1964's, I find this little fella out of the blue on top of it all. Hmmmmm ..................

Greg Guimond

11-04-2018, 06:06 AM

.........
No clamshell vents like the 1966 written up in this article, so it could be a 1964 or a 1965. More work to do as the cold weather creeps in :eek:

mattyboy

11-09-2018, 11:30 AM

.........
No clamshell vents like the 1966 written up in this article, so it could be a 1964 or a 1965. More work to do as the cold weather creeps in :eek:

what is the context on this report ?
do we know when that document was written? looks like a legal investigation report may not pertain to the timeline but it may pertain to changes in the venting arrangements made to the 16 over it's lifetime

Greg Guimond

11-11-2018, 03:18 PM

what is the context on this report ? do we know when that document was written? looks like a legal investigation report may not pertain to the timeline but it may pertain to changes in the venting arrangements made to the 16 over it's lifetime

I will dig it up when I return late next week to home, I'm on a plane for work now.

In the meantime a question for you Matty based on your earlier post below .......

I have the build card for what I think is the red test boat/ A&F boat with Don from 65 but without the boat to confirm is is very much speculation. It was renumbered when it was sold and it shows a very early serial number for the drive compared to other boats at the time marked as old demo boat. The other early boat known to have an invoice is TOMRON's with hull #55 which I have some correspondence from him from the dealer to donzi from feb of '65, but not the invoice.

We know for a fact that the Red with white stripe test 16 was run at Diner Key on April 15, 1965 so it was obviously built much earlier.

I want to clarify your comment above, "it shows a very early serial number for the drive compared to other boats at the time marked as old demo boat".

Two questions for you Matty. First, do you have any other build cards for 1965 16s that actually say old demo boat and have drive numbers? The earliest drive I have starts with 320. Second, have you ever run across R26 on any drives and do you know what the 26 might mean on your build card below?

mattyboy

11-12-2018, 11:26 AM

as I have said before I have not found a definitive decode on eaton interceptors, info found on the web boating sites either conflict or are incomplete.

the R 26 i believe is rotation right and gear ratio 26 what the 26 means I don't know

and not knowing if they used sequential numbers in total on different rotation models or did they use a unique sequential numbering within each model so Lefty's had their own numbering and righty's had their own

315 would be way before 320 logically but without knowing the numbering plan one can only speculate

the boat is question was sold in aug of 67 I don't have the invoice was it sold as is, was it repowered with a new motor and re used the drive? was it a total refit. only J thompson knows

I would gather the drive was reused by aug of 67 they were fitting the boats with aq200 with eaton badges

again the codes are in question according to some the first two numbers after the letters indicate year of the motor so does a 1962 motor end up in a 16? at all

all I can say for sure is the boat matches the colors of the A&F catalog boat and it was marked as a demo boat

Greg Guimond

11-13-2018, 07:47 AM

Interesting.

Do you have any additional Build Cards for 16's that say "old demo boat"?

mattyboy

11-13-2018, 09:00 AM

yes but not in the 16 line they made notes on the cards like "New racing bucket seat" " old show boat" "new bottom" " back from consignment"
"expieremental"

R 26 confirmed Righty 1.26:1 gear ratio

so an L47 is a lefty 1.47:1 gear ratio

that MAY explain the lower serial number I can't see alot of motors in that day having the balls to spin a 1:26 .

Greg Guimond

11-13-2018, 09:11 AM

yes but not in the 16 line they made notes on the cards like "New racing bucket seat" " old show boat" "new bottom" " back from consignment" "expieremental"

R 26 confirmed Righty 1.26:1 gear ratio..............so an L47 is a lefty 1.47:1 gear ratio. that MAY explain the lower serial number I can't see alot of motors in that day having the balls to spin a 1:26 .

I thought the same. Here is full confirmation of the two gear ratios offered by Eaton as early as 1962.

Greg Guimond

11-13-2018, 06:05 PM

Matty, my hunch is that your Demo Card boat is a late 1966 demo hull that then, sometime in 1967, had BOTH the engine and the drive swapped out for newer models.

1. The Eaton outdrive as you say shows the only 1.26 to 1 gear ratio of any of the early 16's pieced together. Every single one of those has the 1.47 to 1 ratio.
2. The Outdrive carries a 6 digit serial number, where all the earlier 1.47 drives seem to have 5 digits. Strange.
3. On the motor another nugget is that the 260 produced more power later in it's life with a 4 barrel option. I believe the ponies went from 165hp to 185hp but you'll know more than I.
4. The serial number on the motor is also telling. It has the "6" digit which should show it to be a 1966. I have (4) earlier 1965 16's that each have the "5" digit consistently.
5. It's pretty likely that that color combo was done again in 1966 given it was so prominent on the original demo boat run by Don back at Diner Key in early 1965.

So it was a DEMO boat, just not the 1964 one.

Greg Guimond

11-14-2018, 08:04 PM

.................
Back to the 1964's. The owner of the all Lucan Red Ski Sporter and I have been communicating and he was good enough to put a full set of pictures together. This looks to be an early 1965 build at a minimum and could have popped out of the mold in 1964. True barn find as it was in his Dad's barn for the last 30 years or so. He is going to climb into it to look for grease pencil markings over the next week or two. It looks to have all the bits and pieces still intact. Time will tell if it has a place on the 1964 Build List. Photos attached below.

Greg Guimond

11-19-2018, 07:50 AM

.............
The owner sent this photo showing the 260 cubic inch stamp and LH above it. He also confirmed that the original interior was all white as his Dad had it copied exactly.

Greg Guimond

11-19-2018, 08:00 AM

woobs

11-20-2018, 12:40 AM

I'm not so sure about your de-coding of the Interceptor serial numbers.

Here is interceptor NOGKOL61543. In this case it's a 1962, 221cid, 145HP early SBF. (also paired with an Eaton drive) It came out of a 1964 boat.
In fact, these are Interceptor timing covers and each actual engine has a Ford date stamp number on the block. There's no way to correlate the Interceptor serial# with the Ford serial # as Interceptor parts were not installed by Ford.

Ford only produced the 221 in 1962 and it was phased out by April 1963. So you can't tell when the engine was marinized for a 1964 model year installation. Similarly, the 260 cid was introduced in March of 1962 and was discontinued after the 1964 model year (fall of '64). A run of 260 cid engines was produced for Sunbeam (for the Tiger) between 1964 and 1966 model years ceasing production in the fall of 1966 in favour of the 289. So it is possible that the Interceptors were a deal Ford made to get rid of the discontinued engine in 1966. But, I don't think they started up a discontinued line just for Interceptor. Unless you have the true key to the interceptor serial number you are guessing the motor was marinized by Interceptor in 1966.

The only other upgrade to the 260 was the XHP 260. An upgraded 260 cid with a better valve train, higher compression and a 4bbl. Only about 100 were made for Caroll Shelby in AC cars and a couple of Ford race cars.

8726087261

mattyboy

11-20-2018, 07:36 AM

woobs that's some awesome info :) looking at the interceptor and the HM motors they handled the front end of the motor in their own way with their own equipment I wonder who the first was to use the "auto" setup Waukesha,Volvo ?

mattyboy

11-23-2018, 10:36 AM

...................
And here are the ID codes off both the Interceptor Engine and the Eaton drive, completely intact and I believe one of the only surviving matched set of numbers that there is photo proof of. He also emailed me that there were holes in the deck for where a windshield would have been but they no longer have it. I've asked him to do additional checking for the grease pencil numbers and also for some photos of the blower. We shall see.

Eaton Drive - 32039CA16R47

Intercepter V8 Motor - GT90L526123

judging by those numbers where do you say it falls with what we already know

""""Hull number 16-55 is ordered March 24, 1965 and delivered April 21, 1965. This boat is white with a blue stripe and midnight blue trim, tinted windshield. Ford Interceptor 165 HP, Engine # GT90L5244626 (this is a Ford 260, same as Mustang 1964 Â½ ) Eaton drive # 33093CA16L47.
Sold to: Ohio Valley Yacht Sales, Louisville, Kentucky
Delivered to: Picked up by dealer at Donzi plant in Miami Beach (this boat went to KY)
First Owner: Frank B. Thompson, Jr. Louisville, KY

Hull number 16-136 is ordered July 6, 1965 and delivered July 21, 1965. Order # 199.
This boat is white with a red stripe and red trim, tinted windshield. Ford Interceptor 165 HP, Engine # GT90L526036 (this is a Ford 260, same as Mustang 1964 Â½ ) Eaton drive # 34008CA16L47.
Sold to: Ohio Valley Yacht Sales, Louisville, Kentucky
Delivered to: RaymondÂ’s Marine. Jeffersonville, Indiana.
First Owner: S. Paul Jones. Louisville, KY
Second Owner: Me

Hull number 16-145 is ordered July 6, 1965 and delivered July 21, 1965. Order # 198.
This boat is white with a green stripe and green trim, tinted windshield. Ford Interceptor 165 HP, Engine # GT90L526031 (this is a Ford 260, same as Mustang 1964 Â½ ) Eaton drive # 33998CA16L47.
Sold to: Ohio Valley Yacht Sales, Louisville, Kentucky
Delivered to: RaymondÂ’s Marine. Jeffersonville, Indiana.
First Owner: ??? Louisville, KY

Best regards
Thomas """

looks like they may have used separate sequential numbering for each rotation/ratio out drive model but their motor numbering was straight sequential

putting the boat you pictured GT90L526123 somewhere around or after hulls 136 and 145 which were built side by side GT90L526036 and GT90L526031

so no way the boat pictured is a 64

Greg Guimond

11-23-2018, 10:34 PM

..........looks like they may have used separate sequential numbering for each rotation/ratio out drive model but their motor numbering was straight sequential...........

Explain the above a bit more, not sure I follow you.

mattyboy

11-24-2018, 09:28 AM

Explain the above a bit more, not sure I follow you.

sure, we have serial numbers on outdrives that would indicate they were sequential in an ascending order with in each model. the Demo boat I posted the build card has a number starting with 315 it is a RH 1.26 drive noted that the motors of the day might have an issue with turning a ratio like that so production numbers would be less than a higher ratio drive, also a RH drive in those days of limited prop technology and lack of trim would have handling issues. time frame on this boat is really unknown we know it is an old boat but how old not sure

now the boat you posted starts with 320 it is also a RH drive but with a higher ratio1.46 a more common ratio but still a RH drive so production numbers would be higher than the RH 1.26 but not as high as the LH 1.46 drive. time frame on this boat is summer 65 by engine numbers somewhere after hull 145

then we have hulls 55,136,145 starting with 330 , 339 and 340 all LH 1.46 ratio which indicates eaton was selling more LH 1.46 in that day which makes sense with all the LH helm Donzi , Formula JRs in 1965. time fram on these hulls in time frame on these spring summer 65

Greg Guimond

11-24-2018, 09:57 AM

Hmmm. Let me absorb.

In the interim how do you explain that the demo boat card you posted has (6) digits for a Serial Number while every other Eaton drive we have data on has only (5) ?

Greg Guimond

11-24-2018, 09:59 AM

..............

mattyboy

11-24-2018, 10:46 AM

Hmmm. Let me absorb.

In the interim how do you explain that the demo boat card you posted has (6) digits for a Serial Number while every other Eaton drive we have data on has only (5) ?

I would say human error all these records are handwritten ,I don't think the build cards were ever filled out on the floor by the shop guys I think they had paperwork started by the office sent to the floor then returned and filled out by the office like invoice numbers and dealership/buyer info. Not all that uncommon to see numbers re-written or crossed out on these cards.

also take in to account at the time this card was written the eaton badged volvos AQ200 were also being installed which have 6 digit numbers could be a simple brain fart inserting a zero as force of habit

f_inscreenname

11-24-2018, 12:02 PM

That green and white combo must have been popular back then. My 1966, 16 has numbers 16-292 / 4-29-66 and was green and white.

mattyboy

11-24-2018, 01:16 PM

That green and white combo must have been popular back then. My 1966, 16 has numbers 16-292 / 4-29-66 and was green and white.

yes grumble green was very popular my 16 410 was originally grumble green

Greg Guimond

11-27-2018, 08:29 PM

......
All the details of the picture below have now been retrieved and fully verified. The information that was found is interesting and revealing. It is a small world.

Greg Guimond

11-27-2018, 08:32 PM

My thanks to Axel for assisting with the research. This particular 16 is not a 1964 build.

Greg Guimond

11-29-2018, 07:45 AM

I'm not so sure about your de-coding of the Interceptor serial numbers.

Here is interceptor NOGKOL61543. In this case it's a 1962, 221cid, 145HP early SBF. (also paired with an Eaton drive) It came out of a 1964 boat.
In fact, these are Interceptor timing covers and each actual engine has a Ford date stamp number on the block. There's no way to correlate the Interceptor serial# with the Ford serial # as Interceptor parts were not installed by Ford.

Ford only produced the 221 in 1962 and it was phased out by April 1963. So you can't tell when the engine was marinized for a 1964 model year installation. Similarly, the 260 cid was introduced in March of 1962 and was discontinued after the 1964 model year (fall of '64). A run of 260 cid engines was produced for Sunbeam (for the Tiger) between 1964 and 1966 model years ceasing production in the fall of 1966 in favour of the 289. So it is possible that the Interceptors were a deal Ford made to get rid of the discontinued engine in 1966. But, I don't think they started up a discontinued line just for Interceptor. Unless you have the true key to the interceptor serial number you are guessing the motor was marinized by Interceptor in 1966.

Mostly agree but I would caution you to not loose site of the good in search of the perfect! Eliminate some of your years above for clarity and you see that the 1964 and 1965 tracking is pretty consistent when installed into Ski Sporter's. Not science but way better than "guessing" I'd say :)

12-2 Edit; Adding the full copy of as Matty thought the small snip I posted was misleading. Go figure.

Greg Guimond

11-29-2018, 07:55 AM

..................

Greg Guimond

11-29-2018, 07:58 AM

.............
Interesting that the 4 banger Volvo carried about the same price as the V8 on a used 16 back in the day

Greg Guimond

11-29-2018, 08:02 AM

And some info on the car motors ..........

mattyboy

11-29-2018, 09:46 AM

Mostly agree but I would caution you to not loose site of the good in search of the perfect! Eliminate some of your years above for clarity and you see that the 1964 and 1965 tracking is pretty consistent when installed into Ski Sporter's. Not science but way better than "guessing" I'd say :)

that photo snip it is very misleading confusing and wrong they have group motors together and the time frames don't match the grouping of motors it would make sense to break out each displacement on it's own time line

ford had a 302 and a 351w in 65?????????? they stopped making the 302 and 351w in 72??????????

if the eaton motor serial numbers are going to be the benchmark a 64 boat with a ford eaton would carry a serial number starting with a with 4 the casting numbers could be well before that , when eaton put their number on the front cover is reflected in their serial number so that's when they "assembled/Marinize" the motor. as the with the white and blue 16 ( sam's boat) from way earlier in this thread and the solid red boat pictured by Greg just recently were all said to be 64's but the numbers put them in mid 65.

so for the boats on the list that are known and confirmed original a quick serial check should do.

mattyboy

11-29-2018, 09:56 AM

it goes

221 62 to 63

260 62 to end of 64 model year ( cars) early 65 is not a stretch

289 63 to 68

302 68 to 78

351 69 to mid 90s

Greg Guimond

11-29-2018, 11:36 AM

that photo snip it is very misleading confusing and wrong they have group motors together and the time frames don't match the grouping of motors it would make sense to break out each displacement on it's own time line

ford had a 302 and a 351w in 65?????????? they stopped making the 302 and 351w in 72??????????

if the eaton motor serial numbers are going to be the benchmark a 64 boat with a ford eaton would carry a serial number starting with a with 4 the casting numbers could be well before that , when eaton put their number on the front cover is reflected in their serial number so that's when they "assembled/Marinize" the motor. as the with the white and blue 16 ( sam's boat) from way earlier in this thread and the solid red boat pictured by Greg just recently were all said to be 64's but the numbers put them in mid 65.

so for the boats on the list that are known and confirmed original a quick serial check should do.

it goes

221 62 to 63

260 62 to end of 64 model year ( cars) early 65 is not a stretch

289 63 to 68

302 68 to 78

351 69 to mid 90s

Car motors, you can't live with 'em, you can't live without 'em. Sounds like you should start a new thread in January titled "Matty's guide to Small Block Ford Motors installed in Donzi's". As to the Eaton drives, again, I agree with you they are not the 100% guarantee that a boat is a 1964, they just give you a better lense on if it could be built in 1964.

I've recently uncovered what may be the most significant find in the history of the Ski Sporter. Certainly an epic discovery at least for me, myself and I. Bigger than the tree in NYC.:eek:

Greg Guimond

11-29-2018, 11:39 AM

Now back to the 1964's ..........

My timeline for the 16's built in 1964 is firming up nicely. There are only (3) possible candidates left that could be 1964's. A black hull and two others. (9) hulls are fully verified so far.

Onward.

mattyboy

11-29-2018, 12:07 PM

Greg

really??? you post cut and chopped pics of mis information just trying to keep this accurate

looking forward to solid proof of your historic find

this thread has been over the shark a few times what's one more time

Greg Guimond

11-29-2018, 12:18 PM

Greg, really??? you post cut and chopped pics of mis information just trying to keep this accurate. looking forward to solid proof of your historic find. this thread has been over the shark a few times what's one more time

No worries and no ill will intended on the car motor comment.

Below is what I have verified so far. It would be great if you can take a close look Matty and tell me what I have wrong in the 1964 List below. I'd really appreciate it.

Hull 1. Original B+W Press Release boat – Photo shows the “long” inner strakes & Volvo 100 drive. Mike Aronow writes of taking a test run with his Dad in his book KOTBR. Date of B+W photo unknown, but must be snapped after May 5, and before October 5, 1964.
100% Confirmed

Hull 2. Teknikens Varld Magazine boat - White w/ Red deck stripe only. New "shortened" inner strakes & single thru hull exhaust in photo. No Grab Rail. Boat was shipped to Volvo HQ in Sweden for tests which was likely hastened by the 10/1/64 Longshoreman's strike.
100% Confirmed

Hull 3. Jim Wynne driving boat - White w/ Red deck stripe & red chine stripe. Speedo to right of helm. Inner strakes not clear but look to be "short" in photos. Drive ID'd as Volvo Aq200 Euro "loaner" which was the first Aq200 test drive to make it into the US market. No Deck Grab Rail. Photos thought to be taken Sept/Oct '64.
100% Confirmed

Hull 4. Allan Brown driving boat - White w/ Green deck stripe only - Ford Eaton 260 cu inch V8 165hp motor & Eaton flip up drive. No Deck Grab Rail. Again, the color photograph of both Brown and Wynne running side by side thought to be taken Sept/Oct 1964.
100% Confirmed

Hull 5. Jacksonville Boat Show boat - White w/ Blue deck stripe thru dash & blue chine stripe. Brownie at show on 11/13/64. Shown in Four Page Color Brochure with El Camino, & on Travel-Lift. First Aq200 production drive ever shown in USA - No Deck Grab Rail. ID provided by A. Brown.
100% Confirmed

Hull 6. Bob Cox and Ed Joyce boat - No photo of hull at dealer Lauderdale Marina ever found so far. Initially they raced a Formula 233 then became the first Donzi dealer ever in Florida and the US. This hull had the "Hot" Volvo 110/100 package. Deck Grab Rail unknown. ID provided by F. Darwick. Jim Giannell tests it with Bob Cox on January 29, 1965.
100% Confirmed

Hull 7. Fred Darwick race boat - Invoice #67 dated 12/10/64 shows $3,095. Photo of hull marked with race #11 shows it as White w/ Green deck stripe & green chine stripe. "Hot" Volvo 110 (made 140hp) & special race Aq100 drive. No Deck Grab Rail.
100% Confirmed

Hull 8. David Ray boat - White w/ Blue deck stripe. Initial power also another "Hot" Volvo 110/100 package. Sold to David Ray directly by Don Aronow with Fred's help. Boat still exists in Merritt Island today under a different owner. Race Aq100 drive in still in storage today 2018. Boat had a custom water intake tube transom mounted.
100% Confirmed

Hull 9. New York Boat Show 16 – Color was white with a blue stripe. Show started Jan 13, 1965 in a blizzard. Could it have then continued North to the Shepherd boys or was an entirely different '64 hull shipped up to Canada? No, this boat never went to Canada and was most likely shown at the "Chesapeake Bay Boat Show" in Maryland which started Feb 4.
100% Confirmed

Hull 10. Second New York Boat Show 16 - Did it exist, get sold and sent South? Only Brownie would remember if there were two Ski Sporter’s in the booth next to the $8,000 green 19' Hornet. Donzi had two booths at the show on the 4th Floor.
50% - Brownie 2017 email recalls one or two, and Scott Bolts says two but physical layout of the booths would indicate one

Hull 11. All Black boat - Initially revealed and discussed in a single newspaper article talking about a jet black 16 at the January, 1965 New York Boat Show. This led to inclusion in the '64 Build List. Only that one article published in February refers to a black 16 hull so confidence is 25% Edit: Increasing to 50% a very early "All Black" hull has been located and is undergoing forensics. Second Edit: Confirmation that boat was present at Donzi's Miami factory on February 4, 1965 but was never at NY Boat Show. All black with a silver deck stripe.
75% - 4 week gap still suspect

axelkloehn

11-30-2018, 12:24 AM

mattyboy

11-30-2018, 08:15 AM

Matty that is because Greg is sharing all of his research and results even if it is not 100% prooved, but with his method many people have the chance to jump in and participate and help. Of course he could just sit alone in his dark chamber and work out the history and present when finished but that would be boring. I really enjoy following his thread and I also enjoy you two guys bullying each other ;-)

Btw Volvo has always been very expensive equipment, that explains the same/higher price of a 16 with Volvo package to the Ford/Eaton 16... and Volvo was import with taxes and shipping, Ford was available

My point in all of this is if just discussion speculation or a diversion from winter fine, but someone is going to look back at this and take it for 100 percent truth, which we all know it may get close but not perfect. The red boat made its round on social media and the owner was given the idea it was a 64 which it is not. The LGDCC gets calls all the time with owners trying to validate or inflate the legacy of their boat We try to give them an accurate legacy and value for what their Donzi is . I would love to see this list totally validated that would be an awesome thing .

Greg Guimond

11-30-2018, 04:04 PM

My point in all of this is if just discussion speculation or a diversion from winter fine, but someone is going to look back at this and take it for 100 percent truth, which we all know it may get close but not perfect. The red boat made its round on social media and the owner was given the idea it was a 64 which it is not. The LGDCC gets calls all the time with owners trying to validate or inflate the legacy of their boat We try to give them an accurate legacy and value for what their Donzi is. I would love to see this list totally validated that would be an awesome thing .

Huh? No one person may ever take it as 100% truth, but future readers will take the 1964 research as 95% better than anything that's been written up to 12/1/18 by the LGDCC elders, or probably anyone else for that matter. I think as List Meister I've made an honest attempt, using many details never before seen, to try and get the history right. For a decade I'd read numerous posts with history comments that were never, ever "fully wrestled to the ground" get conveyed again, and again, and again. Finally, I decided it would be fun to start work on developing an accurate accounting of the Ski Sporter hulls built in 1964 only. I also knew that some really knowledgeable older folks who were present back then were leaving this earth and would no longer be around to provide insights. I've had help from many people over these last years but I have MY OWN process and I like to stick to it. You can't rush this stuff.

With the above in mind Matty and not trying to push you, what exactly about the '64 List would you say is not validated in your opinion? So here we go again, if you claim you want the history to be as accurate as possible then this is where you step up and help the community. No item's to small to comment on at this late stage. There's one softball in there for sure.

axelkloehn

12-03-2018, 12:24 AM

Matty I totally agree with your statement, I am Donzi-infected since I was a kid when I first saw a red 16 in the early seventies...if it is just a list of 10-15 16s build in 1964 it will be very hard to get it 100%, and as Greg mentioned time is running and to many memories got lost...it is 54 years ago!
I would love to have a real Aronow boat, and I am very much intersted in what is the last hull number before Don sold to Teleflex. I also made the guy with the red boat an offer, but he refused and put it in an auction with all of the other stuff his father had in his shed...

Greg Guimond

12-04-2018, 05:48 PM

.........The red boat made its round on social media and the owner was given the idea it was a 64 which it is not.........

I made the guy with the red boat an offer, but he refused and put it in an auction with all of the other stuff his father had in his shed.

O Mattyboy, where art thou? fyi - Bob, the son of the owner of the Red boat for about 40 years was never given the idea it was a '64, so not sure where that came from. I know the new owner that bought the boat at auction last week. It'll be picked up next week and then some additional items will be checked out and wrestled to the ground including looking for possible grease pencil markings. It's very unique in that it's one of only two boats in existence that has the original drive and motor installed with SN on both still present and legible.

I'm happy that I was able to uncover/discover it and that it got saved from the crusher.:yes:

Just Say N20

12-04-2018, 06:51 PM

Interesting pictures.

Never seen horns mounted on the inside of the ski storage area like that.

Also has one of the original, rare, mounts on the back seat for a wooden bow to hold the cover up.

mattyboy

12-09-2018, 11:11 AM

O Mattyboy, where art thou? fyi - Bob, the son of the owner of the Red boat for about 40 years was never given the idea it was a '64, so not sure where that came from. I know the new owner that bought the boat at auction last week. It'll be picked up next week and then some additional items will be checked out and wrestled to the ground including looking for possible grease pencil markings. It's very unique in that it's one of only two boats in existence that has the original drive and motor installed with SN on both still present and legible.

I'm happy that I was able to uncover/discover it and that it got saved from the crusher.:yes:

Greg I'm right here this is where it came from I think Axel and Woobs commented on this post as well , they can confirm. where would he get the idea it was one of 16 64s made??????

this is on one of the Donzi face book pages is this not the same boat? does it not have serial numbers that put it into mid 65? around hulls 130 or more?

Greg Guimond

12-09-2018, 01:15 PM

You have done it and caught me red handed :yes: When Bob and I first spoke I told him he had a very early 16. He asked me what the first year was, and I told him 1964 and that I was happy to help guide him with the work that he would need to do to get to a decent ID year. Of course you fail to mention Matt that you (LGDCC Historian) had no idea this hull even existed and that without me, you would never have numbers off both the motor and the drive. My back aches from carrying you Matty!

How are you doing on finding Tomron overseas and getting a copy of his original invoice? I have a "never before seen" invoice that I MAY decide to trade you for it as a Christmas gift.
Actually, as I think on it, you will need more than just Tomron's invoice. I will come back to you with a small list of To Do's.

And please no more multiple question marks and exclamation points, my head explodes.:)

Greg Guimond

12-09-2018, 01:16 PM

............
Meanwhile the search for small clues continues. A NOS Eaton prop box from back in the day.

Eaton Interceptor Volvo Customized Propeller 12 1/2 x 14 Left Hand SMC950 KW 601

Greg Guimond

12-09-2018, 01:25 PM

.................
And an Eaton Volvo ad from March of 1964

Greg Guimond

12-09-2018, 03:33 PM

...............
And here we see that Don was at the year earlier 1964 New York Boat Show with one of his Formula 233's.

In fact, he was on the 4th floor, same floor he would show the Donzi 16 and the 19 Hornet the next year.

Greg Guimond

12-09-2018, 08:04 PM

...............
And while the poor folks in the USA market had to use Eaton packages, evidently up in Canada you could buy the very robust Volvo V8 mated to the 200 drive as early as April.

That's just not fair Matty :eek:

Greg Guimond

12-12-2018, 06:58 AM

........
And here is a clip from a 70+ page parts and accessories catalog for Eaton's. Unfortunately it is for 1967. I've never been able to find one for 1964/65.

Greg Guimond

12-12-2018, 07:08 AM

...............
Did someone say 260ci Sunbeam Tiger ........

Edit 12/14/2018: adding a little snip for Woobs as he's a giver of research info --

This is a very rare and very original "unmolested" Matching #'s 1966 Sunbeam Tiger Mark 1A - aka "Baby Shelby Cobra" or "The Get Smart Car." This is a fully documented 4-owner car with only 51600 original miles. Matching # 260 V8 with original 4 speed trans and both soft top and original hardtop as well! Fully documented through Sunbeam Tiger Owners Association with Certificate of Authenticity #457. VIN: B382001367LRXFE JAL: 661363 ENGINE #: 6341-B19KC The engine was fully overhauled at 48127 miles with a .030 overbore to the original block. New pistons & rings machine turned crankshaft .010 reconditioned connecting rods new camshaft & lifters rod bolts timing chain & gear main bearings rod bearings cam bearings all fresh gaskets valve guides new oil pump etc. were all included. The generator starter and water pump were all rebuilt to operate as new. The radiator & heater core were cleaned and resealed professionally. Typical upgrades to Tiger's were commenced at this point with a new Edelbrock Performer aluminum intake Holley 4-barrel 600cfm carburetor (both available as dealer installed LAT options when new) new clutch Pertronix ignition Jet-coated exhaust headers from Sunbeam Specialties 6-blade cooling fan (also optional by LAT) and new aluminum finned valve covers reading Tiger Powered by Ford! The all-important numbers associated with this Tiger are still attached with their original rivets. This 1966 Mark 1A (which had a total run of 2694 vehicles worldwide). 4 owner car with original mileage. The 3rd owner did the restoration (approximately 16-17 years ago). The 3rd owner bought it in April 1992 and only drove it 3513 miles during his 22 years of ownership. White soft top and the very rare hard top included. Many authentic LA Tiger Upgrades comes with boxes of original parts spare parts original wheels and the coveted Authenticity Document signed off on by 3 judges. Original clock gauges burled walnut wood dash in great shape. Interior was redone during the restoration. Mag wheels are not La Tiger but resemble them. Tires in great shape. Soft top in very decent shape Hard top in great shape (except weatherstripping). This Tiger has it's original burled walnut dash correct Smiths electric clock mahogany steering wheel & shift handle Jaegar instrumentation headlight rock guards locking center console Girling power front disc brakes Talbot rearview mirror windshield washer soft boot cover. Dash was rewired - Smith electric clock and temp gauge rebuilt and shipped back from England. Included are the original 13" steel wheels with wheel covers with new radial tires the original valve covers with Sunbeam ID sticker exhaust manifolds 2-barrel intake manifold Ford carburetor & riser 4-blade fan some suspension & brake components. Also a huge box of documentation too! This car does not have many of the common issues you see with these cars- ie. accident issues rust questionable original engine/trans or replacement engines no documentation on authenticity only convertible top wrong air filter wrong clock aftermarket steering wheels aftermarket radio etc. This car has tons of documentation and receipts original drivetrain correct clock steering wheel 2 tops (rolling rack for the hard top) solid body and undercarriage and LA Tiger upgrades including better brakes in front. The weatherstripping is a little tired in some places on the car and the paint does show some wear and some fine scratches etc... Overall a very original and honest and RARE car! History of the Sunbeam Tiger: The "Baby Cobra" by Carroll Shelby it was his idea to drop an American Ford 260 - 289 V8 into a little British Sports car. The Sunbeam Tiger is a high- performance V8 version of the British Rootes Group's Sunbeam Alpine Roadster. They were only made from 1964 - 1967. With the sale of the Rootes Group Sunbeam Alpine positioned as a fine touring automobile Southern California Sunbeam-Talbot sales manager Ian Garrad needed to offer a product more suited for sports car enthusiasts often visiting their showrooms. Efforts to build a car that could attract these young performance minded individuals went to successful design and performance team Shelby American! It was already well known that they could shoe-horn V8 horsepower into just about anything you asked them to so the Ford 260ci V8 was selected for its size and ample power output. It was tucked into the small English chassis with only a "few" refinements to the engine bay and firewall and a "baby Cobra" was born with the official name Sunbeam Tiger! The Mark IA a revised vision of the original was produced from August 1965 through February 1966 with production totaling just 2706 units. Ford powered 260ci V8 engine mated to the Borg Warner T10 4-speed manual transmission with a 2.88 rear end! Financing and leasing options available. Please call or email for more information Great lease rates and Financing also available on any of our inventory! Buy Sell Trade Consignments Welcome! Please email or call 1-

Greg Guimond

12-12-2018, 07:10 AM

.............
And also a neat manual for the Volvo 110 and earlier 95 and then the later model, stouter 200 drive

Greg Guimond

12-13-2018, 08:36 AM

...........
Lower unit photos off one of the 1964's that still survive. Thanks to the owner for sending. Hoping to get some specific #'s off the drive to further delve into the specifics.

axelkloehn

12-14-2018, 12:07 AM

Nice finds Greg!

Very little information about german boatshows 1964 and 1965 so far...

All I found out is the Interboot in Friedrichshafen autumn 1965 had a couple of sunny days with temperatures in the low 60ies, so boating was still possible and Andreas trost confirmed his dad was riding a 16 there that days...

No information about exhibitors at all, but I will keep pushing...

woobs

12-14-2018, 05:38 PM

...............
Did someone say 260ci Sunbeam Tiger ........

Edit 12/142018: adding a little snip for Woobs as he's a giver of research info --

-

Beautiful car huh, I was this close (holds thumb and forefinger about 1/4 " apart) to having one as my first car!

An observation on that RED boat... it has NO features that were not present on my 1965 (including the rear cover stick mount) An early 65 for sure. No way it's a '64.

Greg, for what it's worth, I think you have done a fantastic job on nailing down the class of 1964. Although personally, I don't buy in on the black boat story. But, the rest are solid imho. Nobody could refute the solid 9 and there may be a boat or so that isn't in the doc's but, we'll never know. As someone that enjoys history (and realizes it's never 100% perfect) I think we can close the book on the '54 production. Good job.

Greg Guimond

12-16-2018, 09:25 AM

Greg Guimond

12-16-2018, 09:29 AM

Beautiful car huh, I was this close (holds thumb and forefinger about 1/4 " apart) to having one as my first car!

An observation on that RED boat... it has NO features that were not present on my 1965 (including the rear cover stick mount) An early 65 for sure. No way it's a '64.

Greg, for what it's worth, I think you have done a fantastic job on nailing down the class of 1964. Although personally, I don't buy in on the black boat story. But, the rest are solid imho. Nobody could refute the solid 9 and there may be a boat or so that isn't in the doc's but, we'll never know. As someone that enjoys history (and realizes it's never 100% perfect) I think we can close the book on the '54 production. Good job.

I didn't know much about those cars, very cool ride! The red boat is now confirmed as a 1965 so no place for it on my list. I have the engine casting numbers, gas tank number and flywheel decode. This 16 is probably the only survivor that has all (5) identification numbers fully intact 53 years after it left the factory. Thanks for the kudos on the research woobs.

George Lyons

12-17-2018, 05:56 PM

mattyboy

12-18-2018, 08:07 AM

Greetings Donzi Enthusiasts. I am the new owner of the Red '65 16 that just came out of long term storage in Missouri. It has been posted all over this forum. My enthusiasm for this particular boat comes from my heavy involvement in the collector car hobby. I really appreciate unrestored, untampered with survivors and this Donzi is truly amazing in that category. My forensic inspection of this boat and all of its drivetrain componentry reveals all original dated parts ranging from late 1964 thru mid year 1965. Greg Guimond has been most helpful in steering me thru some questions I had and I Thank him profusely. I plan on doing a much needed but very sympathetic restoration and getting this boat back in the water (Lake Erie) as soon as possible. My patience to find an good unmolested early Sporter paid off as this boat is pretty amazing for its 50 plus years of age. I'll post some more pictures once we get things underway. Thank You

welcome , and good luck with your 16 they are fun boats :) :yes: . keep in mind the early boats were not layed up all that well and being a car guy you know that by the late 60s and early 70s the HP and torque coming from a small block nearly doubled. one of the reasons you don't see many early examples of the 16 is once they replaced the original V8s with stronger motors and drives the glass wasn't up to the stresses of new found torque and speed. If you plan on putting a stout small block in there you will need to protect your investment by re-enforcing the bottom. It may be worth contacting Cliff at the DMRS he had a very early 65 eaton 16 believed to be hull 23 updated to a SBC the boat was in solid shape the transom was redone but it had some issues after the repower under the motor. the layup on the 16 got stronger thru the late 60s and on. This color scheme was pretty popular exact setup Jay Lurie and Patrick from the LGDCC had here a shot of those two together these are a bit newer than yours they are 1967s

Morgan's Cloud

12-18-2018, 12:52 PM

Wise words from Matty. (and nice pics too !)
I know for sure that my St T is a pretty early example and I'm so glad that I took the time to really build up the hull when I did my resto and re-power. These things are not built anywhere near what a lot of people think they are and re-powering an early one with a new tech motor is going to break it into pieces if it isn't properly built up for it .

Greg Guimond

12-21-2018, 07:30 AM

........
A side by side ad with Volvo and Eaton from Popular Science 1964

Greg Guimond

12-21-2018, 07:34 AM

................
And one for Eaton

Greg Guimond

12-21-2018, 07:38 AM

..........
The 1964 Build List is not 100% closed ..... just yet. The "all black boat" is a very solid candidate for inclusion as is the other epic find I am hoarding and might never release.

Focusing only on the Black 16 for now, some interesting puzzle pieces that IMO allow it to stay on the list for the moment.

1. Confirmation from Mr. Brown that they popped an all black Ski Sporter
2. A further small detail from Brownie that I received via email that the all black boat was a first, and had a cosmetic flaw in it's gelcoat
3. An in person interview, that produced a very vivid and detailed recollection that the black hull was sitting at Donzi's factory on 2/4/65. This gent spotted it and wanted to buy it
4. An additional small detail from the gentleman interviewed (he volunteered this without prodding) that the boat he saw had sub par gelcoat! Because of this he did not buy it
5. A somewhat stray piece of data whereby the January 1965 NY Boat Show Hornet 19 had a silver deck stripe, and the all black 16 also has the same silver stripe

And the water intake scupper block off appears to be on the Starboard side while other boats are on Port. Hmmmm

But all that said, February 4, 1965 is certainly not December 31, 1964 so I have a bit more work to do.

Greg Guimond

12-21-2018, 07:42 AM

............
However, the second 16 at the New York Show is being removed from the List. Nothing's been found that supports two 16's being shown along with the 19. Not enough room at the Inn!

Hull 10. Second New York Boat Show 16 - Did it exist, get sold and sent South? Only Brownie would remember if there were two Ski Sporter’s in the booth next to the all green 19' Hornet with silver deck stripe. Found the show floor plan and Donzi had two connected booth spaces on the 4th Floor. The physical layout of the booths would indicate only one 16.

Was at 50% - Then removed from 1964 List based on Axel's layout work

Greg Guimond

12-22-2018, 09:09 AM

......
Dateline 1964 Miami - After Don Aronow sells Formula to Dick Genth's Thunderbird Boats on May 5, 1964, he and Dave Stirrat start Donzi Marine in July. They build the new Donzi factory right across the street from Formula. Living Legend Allan "Brownie" Brown joins to run sales. Drawings for the Donzi Ski Sporter 16 are printed up by iconic designer Walt Walters on July 1, 1964. The new boats development effort is fast-tracked by the 1962 and 1963 race winning "Wynn Mill II" hull driven by Jim Wynne with Volvo power and a 2 blade prop supplied by Fred Darwick and the Walters/Aronow "Formula Jr" hull that got built late 1963. To be specific though, the new, bold Donzi 16 is linked only to the WYN-MILL II design.

Hull 1. Original B+W Press Release photo boat – Photo shows the “longer” inner strakes & Volvo model 100 drive. Deck stripe runs down through the dash. Michael Aronow writes of taking a test run with his Dad in his book KOTBR. Date of B+W photo unknown, but must be snapped after May 5, and before October 5, 1964. First dated photo found is 10/23/1964.
100% Confirmed

Hull 2. Teknikens Varld Magazine boat - White w/ Red deck stripe only. New "shortened" inner strake change & single thru hull exhaust in photo. No Grab Rail. Boat shipped to Volvo HQ Sweden for tests which was likely hastened by the 10/1/64 USA Longshoreman's strike. Current owner is Thomas Rönnberg, last known location Sweden five years ago. Gone dark.
100% Confirmed

Hull 3. Jim Wynne driving photo boat - White w/ Red deck stripe & red waterline stripe. Speedo to right of helm. Inner strakes not clear but look to be "short" in photos. Drive ID'd as Volvo Aq200 Euro "loaner". Design using Volvo only power changed due to dockworker strike, Eaton V8's worked into production. No Deck Grab Rail. Photos thought to be Sept/Oct '64.
100% Confirmed

Hull 4. Allan Brown driving boat - White w/ Green deck stripe only - Powered by Eaton Manufacturing package based on the 260 cubic inch Ford V8 Interceptor motor producing 165hp and Eaton Powernaut flip up drive. No Deck Grab Rail. Again, the iconic color photograph of both Brown and Wynne running side by side thought to be taken September/October 1964.
100% Confirmed

Hull 5. Jacksonville Boat Show boat - White w/ Blue deck stripe thru dash & blue waterline stripe. Brownie at show on 11/13/64 after running Miami to Key West race weekend prior. Shown in 4 Page Color Brochure behind El Camino, & on Travel-Lift run by Shorty. First Aq200 production drive ever shown publicly in USA - No Deck Grab Rail. ID provided by Brown.
100% Confirmed

Hull 6. Bob Cox and Ed Joyce boat - Initially raced a Formula 233 then Bob became the first Donzi dealer in Florida and the US. No photo of this boat at Lauderdale Marina found so far. This hull had the "Hot" Volvo 110/100 package. Deck Grab Rail unknown. ID provided by F. Darwick. Jim Giannell writes about testing it with Cox in 1/29/65 issue Fort Lauderdale News.
100% Confirmed

Hull 7. Fred Darwick boat - Ordered new, Invoice No.67 dated 12/10/64 shows $3,095. Photo with #11 shows it's White w/ Green deck stripe & green waterline stripe. No Deck Grab Rail. Fred & Judy entered the 1/2/65 Orange Bowl 9 Hour race and won. Written on invoice was "Hot Volvo". Package had twin 2 barrel side draft Solex carbs, modified cyl head & valves for higher compression, water jacketed dry exhaust manifold. Power was now 140hp with changes. AQ100 lower was delivered with totally custom 3" longer torpedo to lessen cavitation.
100% Confirmed

Hull 8. David Ray boat - White w/ Blue deck stripe. Short inner strakes. Initial power another "Hot" Volvo 110/100 package. Sold to David Ray directly by Don Aronow with Fred's help. Boat still exists in Merritt Island today under a different owner. Also had the special race Aq100 drive still in storage today 2019. Boat had a transom mounted custom water intake tube.
100% Confirmed

Hull 9. New York Boat Show 16 – Color was white with a blue stripe. Show started January 13, 1965 in a blizzard. Could it have then continued North to the Shepherd boys or was an entirely different '64 hull shipped up to Canada? No, this boat never went to Canada and was most likely shown at the "Chesapeake Bay Boat Show" in Maryland which started Feb 4.
100% Confirmed

Hull 10. Second New York Boat Show 16 - Did it exist, get sold and sent South? Only Brownie would remember if there were two Ski Sporter’s in the booth next to the all green 19' Hornet with silver deck stripe. Found the show floor plan and Donzi had two connected booth spaces on the 4th Floor. The physical layout of the booths would indicate only one 16.
50% - Being dropped to 0% and moved off the '64 List based on Axel's layout work and no other supporting evidence

Hull 11. All Black boat - Initially revealed and discussed in a single newspaper article talking about a jet black 16 at the January, 1965 New York Boat Show. This led to inclusion in the '64 Build List. Only that one article published in February refers to a black hull so confidence only 25%. Update Edit 1: An early All Black hull has been located in MA and is undergoing research. Confidence 50%. Update Edit 2: Have full confirmation that boat was viewed at Donzi's Miami plant on February 4, 1965 but was not at NY Show. Black with silver deck stripe.
75% - 4 week gap still creating doubt

Hull 12. Monumental Discovery Boat .... aka MDB
50%