Donzi 16 Timeline - The Boats Built During 1964

[mattyboy]

Do you agree that the only Ford motor option that could have possibly been put into a 1964 Ski Sporter hull would have been the 260 cubic inch 165hp Interceptor V8 mated to an Eaton drive?

that would be my choice in 64-65 but knowing what I know now about the eaton I would go for the volvo . they could have put the ford 221 ci 140 hp offering in . But they really wanted to use Volvo power in Wynne's interests, as all of the early literature states. But from what I have seen in early 16 the 165 hp was a popular choice.

Now that I know they used the 289 at some point for the 165 hp and Eaton changed there drive adapter at some point to match the change in the rear end of the Ford V90 small blocks( we call them windsors but Ford never called them that cause the 289 and 302 were made at both the Cleveland and Windsor plants only til the 302 was stroked to 351 was the name windsor used by ford to tell the difference in the big block 351 cleveland and the stroked 302 version 351 )
it is possible that in late 64 early 65 a 289 165hp is used but with out having a motor to look at it is hard to tell. you need to look at the casting and date codes as well the bell housing to get an ID on a Ford of that era.

[mattyboy]

I'm just wondering why the Hornet have a flattened deadrise compare to other models of the same period ?

It is clear that the 19 hull as something of a "28 sportman" in reduction. But, although the 19 is really smaller in scale, they decided to go for a 19 degree deadrise instead of the same deadrise than the 28 (which seems to be deeper).

The racers of this period had stand up driven cockpits and the hornet has a sit down cockpit. I feel it surprising that they race-tried in the prototype "Donzi Daddy" : a shorter hull, a flatened bottom and a sit down cockpit. (Not counting the special engine-drive package.)
At the same period they were making the 16 hulls with a 24 degree deadrise, which was totally in phase with the deep v offshore revolution started by the Moppie's, ...
Later, they started the 18 2+3 keeping the 24degree deadrise.

The only reason I can find for a flattened bottom is : As soon as the St Tropez version seems to have started very shortly after the launch of the Hornet in 64, maybe they already had in mind to power this CC version with the little Volvo AQ 110/200.
With a deeper V, the 110 hp would probably hardly manage to get the hull on plane.
That would suppose that the St Tropez was already in mind when they designed the Hornet ?
And that supposes that maybe they tested it with the Aq200 in 64 at the same period or not long before or after they tested it on the 16 ?

I am probably re-inventing the wheel, or probably totally wrong, but i had that idea in my mind while reading this tread with great interest.

I think they wanted the volvo power for the St T as fishermen usually aren't speed demons and fuel consumption and range is a biggy with them, I think they wanted a flatter more stable platform for the 19 models hence the increased beam.

The plan for the Hornet was big block V drive power the nickname was the 7 litre based on the displacement of it's motor. The first I/O version doesn't appear until 1968 when they mate the Volvo AQ 200 and either a 225 or 271 hp HM SBF by 1969 when the HM 290 is available it becomes the standard power option and the V-drives fade away this is also the time frame when the benchseat fades away in favor of the 2+3 seating .

I think the ST T and the Hornet were developed together in fact if you look at some early versions of the 19 OB raceboats they looked to be ST T's with a canvas skin to make them look like a benchseat.

It is also good to keep in mind that Don wasn't looking to be a mass production MFG'R he wanted to make a splash with the new models then sell and move on to the next development. That's why the shepard deal and the teleflex deal happen so quickly after the birth of Donzi.

So if you Look at what the early model line up is like you have almost of all the boat market covered. A big Cruiser/overnighter the 28. the gentleman racer/fish boat the 19s , and the sportsboats the 18 and the entry level 16. The complete package for a large corporation in the marine rigging field to have control over.

[mattyboy]

the other thing to take into account is the Volvo boats are more civilized with exhaust thru the drive the eaton boats are much louder with thru hull only.

[Greg Guimond]

I'm just wondering why the Hornet have a flattened deadrise compare to other models of the same period? It is clear that the 19 hull as something of a "28 sportman" in reduction. But, although the 19 is really smaller in scale, they decided to go for a 19 degree deadrise instead of the same deadrise than the 28 (which seems to be deeper). The racers of this period had stand up driven cockpits and the hornet has a sit down cockpit. I feel it surprising that they race-tried in the prototype "Donzi Daddy" : a shorter hull, a flatened bottom and a sit down cockpit.


I think they wanted the volvo power for the St T as fishermen usually aren't speed demons and fuel consumption and range is a biggy with them, I think they wanted a flatter more stable platform for the 19 models hence the increased beam. The plan for the Hornet was big block V drive power the nickname was the 7 litre based on the displacement of it's motor. The first I/O version doesn't appear until 1968. I think the ST T and the Hornet were developed together in fact if you look at some early versions of the 19 OB raceboats they looked to be ST T's with a canvas skin to make them look like a benchseat.

The #69 Hornet 19' boat (aka Donzi Daddy) was piloted by Alan Brown and Skip Carrol and ran in the November 6, 1964 Miami-to-Key West race. It was the first 19 that was laid up. I'm not sure I would call it a prototype as the next 19s made in 1964 did not change the bottom design. The St Tropez was a result of 19' Hornets that were competing and winning as outboards. Matty is a little off here, as the 19' OB Donzi race boats were not yet built in 1964. The Hornet OB race boats were a result of Donzi's success with the normal closed deck Hornet 19 which placed 8th on November 6, 1964 against much bigger hulls in nasty seas. The 19' Hornet would race several more times in 1964 doing better each time.

The deadrise issue is an interesting one Cracker box and I would attribute that modification to the amazing success that a guy named Howard Weiler was having at the same time with his hull which had a little less deadrise. Weiler is a story unto himself but I digress

[mattyboy]

The #69 Hornet 19' boat (aka Donzi Daddy) was piloted by Alan Brown and Skip Carrol and ran in the November 6, 1964 Miami-to-Key West race. It was the first 19 that was laid up. I'm not sure I would call it a prototype as the next 19s made in 1964 did not change the bottom design. The St Tropez was a result of 19' Hornets that were competing and winning as outboards. Matty is a little off here, as the 19' OB Donzi race boats were not yet built in 1964. The Hornet OB race boats were a result of Donzi's success with the normal closed deck Hornet 19 which placed 8th on November 6, 1964 against much bigger hulls in nasty seas. The 19' Hornet would race several more times in 1964 doing better each time.

The deadrise issue is an interesting one Cracker box and I would attribute that modification to the amazing success that a guy named Howard Weiler was having at the same time with his hull which had a little less deadrise. Weiler is a story unto himself but I digress

Greg

I am not off at all on the donzi 19 the complete production plan and profile for what we call the St Tropez is completed in june of 1964 by Walt Walters. the hull and CC deck are his design. The production benchseat deck is not a Walt design someone else did the deck on the benchseat Hornet. The final production deck Looks nothing like #69 Donzi Dad . at this point late 64 all are called Donzi 19 . the race boats are 19 bottoms with one off type decks . the benchseat deck is finished by the end of 64 at least one "green hornet" is popped and ready for 65 I would assume they had a St T ready as well

for the OB 19 it is far easier to rework the ST T deck and change the live wells to OB wells

you can see the St T foredeck and lift ring location on this OB raceboat they re worked the console and covered the front deck liner with a canvas deck


pic courtesy Fred Darwick via the DMRS
http://www.donzi.org/library_pics/collections/fred_darwick/11-donzi_19.jpg

[Greg Guimond]

Some good points but I said you were a little bit off on the 19' Hornet O/B race boats. Unless you have some very unique information none of those were built in 1964. As far as the St Tropez 19, I have no idea if the first one was actually built in 1964. You would know that. Also, just to be clear, the link to the photo you provided of the 19' Donzi outboard is NOT a 1964 build.

[mattyboy]

Some good points but I said you were a little bit off on the 19' Hornet O/B race boats. Unless you have some very unique information none of those were built in 1964. As far as the St Tropez 19, I have no idea if the first one was actually built in 1964. You would know that. Also, just to be clear, the link to the photo you provided of the 19' Donzi outboard is NOT a 1964 build.


Greg

to be clear I never said they were 1964 builds I said the two models were developed together not "due the the race success of the 19 let's make a fishing version" like you said
Walt drew the Donzi 19 in June of 64 as a fish CC boat they did a one off as the first hull for Brownie's #69 they must like the idea and the way she performs so a benchseat is put into the works, and the production version deck is ordered and finished in time for the 1965 show tour

the early OB raceboats look to be more like the ST T then a Hornet

Both version of Donzi 19 get their name when they enter production and appear in their sales literature

here is the first donzi hornet the "green Hornet" the first all non white colored hull also the first time the model name appears on the gunwale not Donzi and the length as in the past

what's missing on the #69 from the production model

1. step down ridge that surrounds the deck edge where it meets the hull ( in the mold)

2. raised deck stripe ( in the mold)

3. dual hatches ( in the mold)

4. raised deck vents X4 ( in the mold)

5. two piece windshield

with all these changes in the deck mold #69 is the first 19 popped and can be considered the first prototype for the Hornet


but I digress and hijack this is all for the 19 timeline back to the 16 timeline

[Greg Guimond]

Looking back at the Teknikens boat it may be a 64 not 65. I would say it would have been built right after the June 64 rewrite of the spray rails by Walt and sent to Sweden to be rigged with the aq 200 there. So I would say I am at 5 hulls and all white, the color hulls come in 65 when the interior is re done


I'm looking more closely at this particular hull with the shortened inner lifting strakes to place it firmly in the #4 slot. The Longshoreman's Eastern Seaboard strike began on October 1, 1964 and would get progressively worse in very short order. So TOMRON's first (Thomas Ronnberg) boat pictured below would need to be built in October, 1964 including the single through hull exhaust, then shipped from Miami to Sweden in November, 1964, and then stay in Sweden for 7 months unchanged until it was tested and photographed in Teknikens Varld magazine's July 1965 issue and also raced in the Gettlingloppet in July, 1965.


Yeah agreed that is the first 16 short strakes hull 4 the test bed boat thru hull so exhaust will not interfere with hydrodynamics. So what happened stateside? did they keep building long strake boats or did they wait for results? would they wait until oct to pop this boat from the mold when drawings are completed in June ? Could 4 be 1 and 1 be 2 and so on. No one will know until a tape is taken to a boat in the timeline

Agree, back on point to the 16 timeline. I'm starting to think that this particular hull of Tomrons is #3 built and not #4.

The Jacksonville boat show was not until November 13, 1964 yet the Longshoreman's strike had already started over a month earlier on October 1, 1964. If Donzi knew the union strike would get worse and they already knew (through actual water testing) that Walt would need to shorten the lifting strakes why risk the boat not getting out of the country to Volvo? I'm thinking they build the hull and leave the transom un-cut. Ship it to Sweden sometime in October and Volvo installs a through hull exhaust and an AQ200 drive and proceeds to test the hell out of it. Donzi does not miss a beat and keeps building "long" strake 16's knowing that it will take time for Volvo to report back. The next boat they build is perhaps the Jax show boat. Hmmmm ......... What I don't know is how Union strikes work and was October 1 for stuff coming into America but not going out.

[olredalert]

----Did you two notice the drives on the cabin cruiser behind the 16???.......Bill S

[Rob M]

An early 16 from Sweden, probably discussed earlier, but wondering where this boat likely fits into the timeline of early boats?

http://www.aquamatic.fi/Veneet.htm

[mattyboy]

An early 16 from Sweden, probably discussed earlier, but wondering where this boat likely fits into the timeline of early boats?

http://www.aquamatic.fi/Veneet.htm

Rob

hard to tell by the pic and to know what is original equip or not , if the rail and vents are original it is not a 64 or 65

[mattyboy]

----Did you two notice the drives on the cabin cruiser behind the 16???.......Bill S

good eyes Bill never really notice looks like twin aq200s

[Cracker box]

Sure back to the 16 !
I was only thinking of the AQ200 drives, remembering that the St-T was the only early model to share the AQ 110/200 package with the 16.

And since both of them were designed in 64, perhaps there were also both tested at the same period with the new 200 drives.
But it seems that the first St-T rigged with an AQ 200 was more likely achieved in 65.

Keep on looking for 64 hulls it is really exciting.

[Greg Guimond]

Sure back to the 16 ! I was only thinking of the AQ200 drives, remembering that the St-T was the only early model to share the AQ 110/200 package with the 16. And since both of them were designed in 64, perhaps there were also both tested at the same period with the new 200 drives.
But it seems that the first St-T rigged with an AQ 200 was more likely achieved in 65. Keep on looking for 64 hulls it is really exciting.

You know, one thing that I thought about Cracker box is that if Volvo did in fact supply a "euro spec" AQ200 drive for Jim Wynne to test 16 Hull #1 with, than there is no reason that same exact euro spec drive could not have been removed and used to test the first St Tropez hull ever built behind a Volvo 110 4 cylinder if a 1964 St Tropez has ever been found/substantiated.

Now to tighten up the 1964 timeline note the ads below. Both of the ads obviously reflect a 1964 Ski Sporter hull. One ad is from December, 1964, and then, the same magazine runs an ad in January, 1965. Both of these pieces are sales literature and what is very interesting is the fact that one ad highlights the upcoming "New York Boat Show" that starts on January 15, 1965. A fair amount of effort went into the production of these two pieces no doubt. The pictures would clearly have been taken in 1964. Also take note that in one month's time Don A decided to raise the public price of the 16 Ski Sporter model by $100.

If magazines back then were delivered to the subscriber on the first day of the issues month, that would make the December issue of Motor Boating arrive in the readers mailbox on November 30, 1964. Before that, it would have taken say 30 days to get the issue actually put together so the Donzi factory would have had to give it's photos and copy for the ad of the 16 to Motor Boating by October 30, 1964.

Don Aronow sells Formula to Dick Genth's Thunderbird Boats on May 5, 1964, and then he starts Donzi. Final drawings for the 16 are not printed until July 1, 1964. This proves that even with there heavy ocean race schedule in the second half of 1964, Donzi was geared up to formally promote 16 Ski Sporter's as early as October, 1964. It also forces you to ask how many Ski Sporters could have been built during June, July, and August. Frank Civitano says that as kids his Dad had them out and riding in his all green 16 during the Summer of 1964, well before the photos below are taken in October.

[mattyboy]

Cracker

the drawings of the St T do show the aq200 so i think they wanted to use the volvo on both the 16 and the St T

Greg i am not sure what you mean by euro spec drive ?


so they made hull 1 and 2 from the long straked mold and then 3 comes from a new mold then 4 is a long straked boat for brownie to take to the show? they get the thumbs up on the new mold then sell the old mold to shepard and then tool up for mass production ????



no way to tell unless you have the boats infront of you when woobs gets his info would be real interested in the strake configuration of the shepard.

[Greg Guimond]

Cracker, the drawings of the St T do show the aq200 so i think they wanted to use the volvo on both the 16 and the St T

Greg i am not sure what you mean by euro spec drive ?

so they made hull 1 and 2 from the long straked mold and then 3 comes from a new mold then 4 is a long straked boat for brownie to take to the show? they get the thumbs up on the new mold then sell the old mold to shepard and then tool up for mass production ????no way to tell unless you have the boats infront of you when woobs gets his info would be real interested in the strake configuration of the shepard.

I am calling it a "Euro Spec" AQ200 as it was only available in Europe mated to a Volvo 180 V8. This would have been the drive that you believe was installed on Hull #1 in the photo below. I think you called it a Prototype AQ200 if you re-read the thread. I don't really consider it a prototype because it was designed, built, and used in Europe many times in 1963 and in Europe and Canada in 1964. This "Euro Spec" AQ200 was then tossed aside when Donzi got the first US Production AQ200 delivered and then installed it on the 16 that Alan Brown would tow to Jacksonville for the show in November of 1964.

Now, what we will never know is what minor changes were made by Volvo to the "Euro Spec" AQ200 drive photographed below sometime between July 1, 1964 and October 1, 1964 and the "US Production" AQ200 that Brownie showed on a new Ski Sporter November 13, 1964 at the Jax show.

[mattyboy]

Greg

the aq 200 drive is the aq 200 one thing volvo did was standardize and re use drive technology and parts as the progressed the prototype as i called it was just meant that this drive seen on the wynne boat is not seen in public and the next aq200 to go on a 16 was the jax boat

at this point a volvo drive needs a volvo engine there is no difference in the aq200 on the wynne boat or the aq200 that is on jay's 16 hull 420 except the serial number and the flex plate. besides the ratio that drive would bolt up and run on jay's boat

my point with the 180 is why didn't donzi use it over the 165 option more is always better but that motor never came over here. the 110 volvo did
maybe eaton made them not bring it over to protect their motors I don't know.

[Greg Guimond]

Greg

the aq 200 drive is the aq 200 one thing volvo did was standardize and re use drive technology and parts as the progressed the prototype as i called it was just meant that this drive seen on the wynne boat is not seen in public and the next aq200 to go on a 16 was the jax boat

at this point a volvo drive needs a volvo engine there is no difference in the aq200 on the wynne boat or the aq200 that is on jay's 16 hull 420 except the serial number and the flex plate. besides the ratio that drive would bolt up and run on jay's boat

my point with the 180 is why didn't donzi use it over the 165 option more is always better but that motor never came over here. the 110 volvo did
maybe eaton made them not bring it over to protect their motors I don't know.


Gotcha. To me the word "prototype" means under development.

[Greg Guimond]

So back to the question at hand.............

Don A sells Formula to Dick Genth's Thunderbird Boats on May 5, 1964, and then he starts Donzi. Final drawings for the 16 are not formally printed by Walt Walters until July 1, 1964 but Donzi has already been working on boats. Historical ads from the December, 1964 issue of Motor Boating magazine prove that even with there heavy ocean race schedule in the second half of 1964, the Donzi factory was geared up to formally advertise and promote 16 Ski Sporter's as early as October, 1964. This also forces you to ask how many of the '64 Ski Sporters could have been built during the months of June, July, and August? Frank Civitano says that as kids his Dad had them out and riding in his all green 16 during the Summer of 1964, well before the first press photos of a 16 are taken in October.

So now, with that in mind here is how I see the 1964 Ski Sporter builds ---- a slightly different order

Hull 1. White with Red deck and water line stripe - Jim Wynne pictured driving - Mike Aronow took a test drive with his Dad and writes about it in KOTBR. Drive identified as a Volvo AQ200 Euro Spec - No Deck Grab Rail
Hull 2. White with Green deck stripe - Alan Brown pictured driving - Ford/Eaton motor and Eaton flip up drive - No Deck Grab Rail. Official photo thought to be taken September/October 1964
Hull 3. Teknikens Varld Swedish Magazine boat - White with Red deck stripe. New "shortened" inner lifting strakes & single thru hull exhaust in photo - No Grab Rail. Shipment possibly affected by the 10/1/64 dock strike
Hull 4. Frank Civitano's Dad's solid green boat and red deck stripe. Frank indicates purchase took place in 1964 and boat was used Summer of 1964. Motor and drive as yet unknown. Deck Grab Rail Unknown. No photo
Hull 5. Jacksonville Boat Show boat 11/13/1964 - White with Blue deck stripe and blue water line stripe. Shown in press photograph behind El Camino. First Volvo AQ200 Production drive ever in USA - No Deck Grab Rail
Hull 6. Bob Cox and Ed Joyce Lauderdale Marine boat. Have not found any photos yet but Cox was initially a Formula and then a Donzi dealer. Hot Volvo 110 and Volvo 100 drive. Deck Grab Rail unknown
Hull 7. Fred Darwick race boat - Invoice #67 was dated 12/10/1964. White with Green deck stripe and green water line stripe. Special Hot Volvo performance 110 motor and special race 100 lower unit. No Deck Grab Rail
Hull 8. David D. Ray boat - White with Blue stripe. Volvo powered initially with the same "Hot Volvo 110/100" package Boat still exists in Florida today but Matty has not gotten a photo
Hull 9. Sam Ballinger boat - Confirmed motor block casting date shows June, 29 1964 - Also has an Eaton drive, but exact casting date on that not yet known. Greg trying to find out. Yes it has a Deck Grab Rail
Hull 10. January 15, 1965 New York Boat Show - could have then continued North to the Shepherd boys? woobs asking TIBS
Hull 11. Second New York Boat Show - did it even exist? Only Brownie would remember

[Greg Guimond]

Players in the '64 puzzle not yet questioned directly include --

Doc Magoon
Walt Walters
Frank Civitano
Toronto International Boat Show
Shepard Boats old records

[harbormaster]

..and my white hull, blue stripe 16 from Scot Van A in 2004 that is EARLY sixties, all the weird stuff, and vents and ... etc

Lenny

[mattyboy]

..and my white hull, blue stripe 16 from Scot Van A in 2004 that is EARLY sixties, all the weird stuff, and vents and ... etc

Lenny

well we know the creature in it was from 1964

[mattyboy]

With heavy heart I must inform you that Walt Walters passed on Dec 28th, Vern and his family are in my prayers. His legacy will always be with us and have a special place in our hearts with past time we love so much.


http://www.appleseeds.org/shambar.gif
May the road rise to meet you.
May the wind be always at your back.
May the sun shine warm upon your face.
And rains fall soft upon your fields.
And until we meet again,
May God hold you in
the hollow of His hand.

[Marlin275]

One of the GREAT fathers of our Classics . . .

He will live on in our hearts and minds . . .

Walt Walters was a great designer who created the formula!

Art, Math & Science crafted into the finest the world had ever seen in his timeless designs . . .


http://www.classicoffshore.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/WaltWaters.pdf


http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=83512&d=1451758724


http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=83505&d=1451757437

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=83506&d=1451757504

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=83508&d=1451758338

[Ghost]

We have much for which to thank him. One of the Founders. He and his will be in our thoughts and prayers.

[jl1962]

I didn't realize he designed most of the Aquasports too.

It was a real treat to meet him at LG several years ago.
He was very humble and soft spoken. But he lit up when he spoke about his boats.
Fortunately he lived long enough to know how much his creations are appreciated by their owners.
And to see how well they have stood the test of time.

[Morgan's Cloud]

Fascinating read !
And here I was always believing that Ghost Rider was penned by Jim .

It would seem that Jim took a lot of Walt's influence and got his subsequent designers to capitalize on them .

What a pity that there's so few of these incredibly interesting and accomplished guys left .

[Marlin275]

Fascinating read !
And here I was always believing that Ghost Rider was penned by Jim .

It would seem that Jim took a lot of Walt's influence and got his subsequent designers to capitalize on them .

What a pity that there's so few of these incredibly interesting and accomplished guys left .

I took these at the 2006 NY Boat show.
She was a true wave crusher, built heavy with big pieces of lumber throughout.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=83519&d=1451770751

[Greg Guimond]

Godspeed Mr. Walters. A good and long life lived and an amazing contribution to all things nautical. Below are two Maritime 32 footers. Walt Walters was of course behind the design.

[Greg Guimond]

as this discussion progresses ............This is not really in the 64 timeline but it does support the Popular Boating Magazine test article at Dinner Key in one of the first 3 original demo boat that had 100s of hours.

At the 1965 Miami Boat show Feb 19-24 1965 at Dinner Key Brownie meets and gives a demo ride to S. Paul Jones of Ohio Valley Yacht Sales Inc.
Jones on Feb 24 writes to Allen (he spelled Brownie's name wrong) that he has lost his info on the boats, and wants replacement pricing lists and order forms. He plans to return to Fla in March to tour the Plant and deliver an order . He wants to know what power is available as he knows the longshoremen's strike has delayed delivery on Volvo engines. Now some of the early early discussion here make sense that Eaton could become a staple for power in a boat designed for a volvo. It also jives that the demo boat was running a lot at Dinner Key.

I was re-reading this thread and saw this reference to the 1965 Miami Boat Show in February. I was trying to square it with the lack of information on colors that the two boats had in the April 15, 1965 test session that was written about in Popular Boating and included two Ski Sporters.

I then found a post by Alan Brown that indicated the February Miami show 16 was White with a Red stripe. There is no reference to the engine or drive in the boat so I'm not sure if any of it could be tied back to the 1964 builds.

[Greg Guimond]

a little more on Ford casting numbers

time frames from block casting to final engine assembly at Ford were any where between 2 days and a week depending on the motor one thing that was happening in june of 64 Ford was asses and elbows getting 289s in the new ICONIC pony car the FORD MUSTANG. so the 260 windsor was approaching end of life

so a rough swag would be a block cast on June 29 1964 would reach final Ford assembly by July 4th

now one has to take another swag, on what the time frame would be Eaton ordering a motor delivery ( cross town in dearborne) then Eaton final assembly then Donzi order delivery( 188th st) and final installation.

So the casting # on the V8 block in the what is believed to be the #9 hull Sam Ballinger 16 dates to June 29, 1964 but we did not have any ID on the Eaton drive until now.

Here is what the outdrive shows ......... 33174. As a compare drive 34008 is dated around July 1965

[bertsboat]

Nice Matty, thanks. Walt was cool. Hard to understand. Your sort of good and happy then a month later your gone. My wife and I were with Walt just about a month ago. he was smiling and in the conversation. He was a special old school guy. Pretty humble too.


With heavy heart I must inform you that Walt Walters passed on Dec 28th, Vern and his family are in my prayers. His legacy will always be with us and have a special place in our hearts with past time we love so much.


http://www.appleseeds.org/shambar.gif
May the road rise to meet you.
May the wind be always at your back.
May the sun shine warm upon your face.
And rains fall soft upon your fields.
And until we meet again,
May God hold you in
the hollow of His hand.

[bertsboat]

A few of what it looks like now...


I took these at the 2006 NY Boat show.
She was a true wave crusher, built heavy with big pieces of lumber throughout.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=83519&d=1451770751

[mattyboy]

Nice Matty, thanks. Walt was cool. Hard to understand. Your sort of good and happy then a month later your gone. My wife and I were with Walt just about a month ago. he was smiling and in the conversation. He was a special old school guy. Pretty humble too.


yes the two times I had the pleasure of meeting him he was very gracious and very humble. I was surprised to see so many other designs in his portfolio including the cruiser he built for Vern and himself "Pachyderm"

[mattyboy]

So the casting # on the V8 block in the what is believed to be the #9 hull Sam Ballinger 16 dates to June 29, 1964 but we did not have any ID on the Eaton drive until now.

Here is what the outdrive shows ......... 33174. As a compare drive 34008 is dated around July 1965


the eaton engine and outdrive serial numbers are much longer than that, and have Alpha characters in them that may only be just a part of the entire number.

these serial numbers will give you much info on the motor and drive as far has rotation, displacement, year, HP, carb, ratio.


one really needs to research the developments that were occurring in the 221,260,289 family at this time in Ford history ,casting numbers may help but may overlap and not give such a clear picture. This includes the 64 1/2 mustang and the lifespan of the 260 motor and the move to the 289. Changes in production may have lead to stocking orders from Eaton dearborn to tide them over with 165 hp motors until they could adapt to these production changes. these changes overlap and in some cases differences in the 260 and 289 are very hard to tell apart. it takes looking at bore, the bell housing, freeze plugs and other items to identify what you have

[mattyboy]

So the casting # on the V8 block in the what is believed to be the #9 hull Sam Ballinger 16 dates to June 29, 1964 but we did not have any ID on the Eaton drive until now.

Here is what the outdrive shows ......... 33174. As a compare drive 34008 is dated around July 1965


I think if you are saying that the drive numbers are sequential that Sam's drive is earlier than the drive on hull 136 so by that benchmark Sam's hull is after hull 55 which is ordered in March of 65 and delivered in April of 65 it has a drive number of 33093 mated to a 260 ci 165 hp ford Sam's 33174 would be some 81 drives later. Going by that I would say Sam's boat has been confirmed to be off the list for the 64 builds.

[Greg Guimond]

Oops ........... behind the transom on the outdrive are as follows: 33174CA 16 L 47

[mattyboy]

Oops ........... behind the transom on the outdrive are as follows: 33174CA 16 L 47




Hull 55 1965 33093CA16L47

Sam's hull 196? 33174CA 16 L 47

hull 136 1965 34008CA16L47

hull 141 1965 33998CA16L47 please note that hull 136 and 141 are placed on the same order and are delivered at the same time to the same dealer the serial numbers are not in order but are 10 units apart, and the hulls are 5 apart

I would say by this benchmark Sam's hull is no doubt a 65 which makes sense with the grab rail

[Greg Guimond]

Interesting.

Do we have any way to decode the actual manufacture date of the Eaton drive based on it's numbers similar to the June 29, 1964 engine block casting? I'd like to pass the info on to Sam B when I speak with him next.

[mattyboy]

I had sent Sam an email when a possible buyer had the boat looked at . That possible buyer asked me to contact Sam as he thought Sam might try to restore it I told Sam he could contact me if he had any questions on the 16 we have a wide variety of info and expierence at the LGDCC but haven't heard back from him..

The interceptor engine serial number would help, also the original colors may help. A date on the fuel tank may be a way as well to date the boat but I don't think it is the original tank.

[mattyboy]

to date this picture it is taken no earlier than Sept of 64 and no later then publish/press date of July 1965 of the magazine it appears in . Judging from other factors seen in the article it looks to be winter or early spring.

Criteria for dating picture

Red 1965 1800S Volvo sports car model year production dates 9/64 7/65

mountains in distance are bare so the trees either just dropped or have not bloomed yet

extreme steam coming from thru hull exhaust and the driver looks like he has a heavy blue jacket on looks cold

surrounding docks very empty suggesting off season and I am sure on season you would NOT be able to get on plane right by the gas dock :yes:.

[Greg Guimond]

Agree, back on point to the 16 timeline. I'm starting to think that this particular hull of Tomrons is #3 built and not #4.

The Jacksonville boat show was not until November 13, 1964 yet the Longshoreman's strike had already started over a month earlier on October 1, 1964. If Donzi knew the union strike would get worse and they already knew (through actual water testing) that Walt would need to shorten the lifting strakes why risk the boat not getting out of the country to Volvo? I'm thinking they build the hull and leave the transom un-cut. Ship it to Sweden sometime in October and Volvo installs a through hull exhaust and an AQ200 drive and proceeds to test the hell out of it. Donzi does not miss a beat and keeps building "long" strake 16's knowing that it will take time for Volvo to report back. The next boat they build is perhaps the Jax show boat. Hmmmm ......... What I don't know is how Union strikes work and was October 1 for stuff coming into America but not going out.


to date this picture it is taken no earlier than Sept of 64 and no later then publish/press date of July 1965 of the magazine it appears in . Judging from other factors seen in the article it looks to be winter or early spring. Criteria used for dating picture .........

Red 1965 1800S Volvo sports car model year production dates 9/64 7/65
mountains in distance are bare so the trees either just dropped or have not bloomed yet
extreme steam coming from thru hull exhaust and the driver looks like he has a heavy blue jacket on looks cold
surrounding docks very empty suggesting off season and I am sure on season you would NOT be able to get on plane right by the gas dock

Yep, as I had said in my earlier post above, I believe that the pictures below were taken in October of 1964 thereby avoiding the unknown impact of the Longshoreman's strike. You could further verify the seasonal impact by asking someone in Sweden if trees have lost there leaves already by October in that area. Perhaps November at the latest. This is why I moved Tomron's boat below up to the 1964 Hull #3 slot from my prior list.

[mattyboy]

can't seem to jive this timeline once I think I have it pretty set I run the boats thru another filter it throws the timeline off


from what I have seen I can only see one long straked boat making it number one

the wynne boat which was thought to be one is now 3 which in pics looks to be a short straked boat as does the brownie white and green #4 making the jax show boat 5

and tomron's #2 the first short straked boat. all the other donzi of the time are short straked so they have expierence with them I think they did this on the fly

the long straked boat pic showing the bottom is hull one and is a spring early summer boat .tested and i would imagine with the 4 banger and aq200 had a tendency to plow and bow steer with too much stern lift causing the aq to cavitate with the props of the era. they now pop tomrons boat and send it to sweden then pop the red and white wynne boat volvo aq 200 and then the white an green brownie boat then the white and blue jax boat.

the darwick boat is then 6

I have checked again and no one can recall a solid non white hull in 1964. the earliest I have confirmation on is the two for the A&F window , so no colored boats are in my 64 timeline. I think Frank may be off a year, It would only make sense that Frank's C Father being a Jersey guy would have the first chance to buy a 16 going to the NYC show in Jan 65 which he would have seen an all green 19 then special ordered the all green and red 16 and had it ready to use in the summer of 65. Frank C 's Father also buys a cigarette from Don a few years later.

If this is not the case then the all green 16 would have to be before the jax nov show boat hull 5 so it could be used in the summer of 64 ,this order would need some more time than a stock 16 and would need a custom interior.

[Greg Guimond]

Interesting. Hmmmmmmm ................ have to think a bit on all that. :screwy: After all it is 10 degrees outside.

A couple of questions. Have you been in contact with Tomron via email at all last year? Also, where would one look for a date stamp on a gas tank of 64/65 vintage IF it was the original tank?

[mattyboy]

The mfgr tag is usually on the top of the tank . I have seen them near the fill , tanks are usually months behind the installation date. My 16 had a tank dated several months before it was installed in April of 67
We think Sams 16 is an early 65 it may have. 64 dated tank if the tank was replaced with a non certified tank built by a fabricator it may have no tag at all

[Greg Guimond]

It is hard to say with out the ability to put an exact manufacture date on Sam B's Eaton drive via the serial # 33174CA 16 L 47

[mattyboy]

It is hard to say with out the ability to put an exact manufacture date on Sam B's Eaton drive via the serial # 33174CA 16 L 47
I think we are at that "jump the shark" stage in this discussion if you are saying that Sams serial number came before that of the drive in hull 55 which is 33093. And eaton mfgr date is always going to be behind the installation date so it really doesn't verify Donzi production date

[Morgan's Cloud]

This kind of reminds me of a conversation I once had with a treasure hunter/marine archaeologist .

If they were to discover an unknown wreck in , say , September of 2003 and on it they found an ancient coin dated 1587 all it means is that the ship could have sunk anytime between 1587 and 2003 . But not before 1587

[mattyboy]

MC

I hear ya :) I am looking at this simply by what I know about the methods and features of the different era builds. Yes the factory did do one off things and special builds but certain things remain the same with methods and features.

I know that CA 16 L 47 refers to the series 16 lh rotation 1.47 gears all that is the same with all 4 of the outdrives mentioned so sorting chronological order would need to be done based on the remaining digits.

33093 ( hull 55)
33174 ( sam's 16)
33398 ( hull 141)
34008 ( hull 136)


It is common for serial numbers to run near each other in the Donzi build records. They must have placed stocking orders with engine drive vendors.

I am sure that if we could find 16 hulls 137-140 or any other Donzi model( St T and 18 2+3 as well as the 16) using eaton power built during the same time period we would find sequential or close to sequential serial numbers to fill in the gaps between 33398 and 34008.

But saying 33174 came before 33093 just isn't possible it goes against the meaning of serial numbers

[Greg Guimond]

can't seem to jive this timeline once I think I have it pretty set I run the boats thru another filter it throws the timeline off ---

from what I have seen I can only see one long straked boat making it number one........the wynne boat which was thought to be one is now 3 which in pics looks to be a short straked boat as does the brownie white and green #4

I had to break the post down a bit to sort through the rubble..........

Try to focus first on Hull #1 and Hull #2. We have a hand written note that Alan Brown scribed. The black and white photo and note are below. In addition, we also have two color photos of the same boats that show an Eaton drive and a Volvo AQ200 (albeit euro loaner) drive. Impossible to tell how long the inner lifting strakes are from either photo.

[Greg Guimond]

........

[Greg Guimond]

.
Then, you have noted Donzi Historian Thomas Ronnberg (tomron@bredband.net) from Sweden saying that this picture was handed to him in person by Brownie in 2002 as 16 Hull #1. Inner strakes are not really visible.

[Greg Guimond]

.
And finally, there's the article in Popular Boating magazine that shows the photo below (taken by Sal M on April 15, 1965) and highlights that the 16 in the photo was one of the "first three" 16s ever built. It was heavily used and beaten down a bit as a demo boat with the Volvo package only clocking 40mph as compared to the much newer Eaton equipped 16 clocking 49. I'm not sure if the Volvo drive shown is a AQ200 or AQ100 model.
.

[mattyboy]

.
And finally, there's the article in Popular Boating magazine that shows the photo below (taken by Sal M on April 15, 1965) and highlights that the 16 in the photo was one of the "first three" 16s ever built. It was heavily used and beaten down a bit as a demo boat with the Volvo package only clocking 40mph as compared to the much newer Eaton equipped 16 clocking 49. I'm not sure if the Volvo drive shown is a AQ200 or AQ100 model.
.

Greg That picture as posted is not from the article it has been edited plus it was not taken on april 15 1965 this picture is from the same aerial photo shoot that the BW brownie pic is taken the caption under the picture in that article says that Wynne is at the wheel but Wynne was not at that test session so popular boating used a stock photo. the pic in it's unedited form taken by Sam M from the article shows two 16 running side by side one eaton one volvo aq200 . that article doesn't help as there is no real info given like colors it also gives the impression that both boats are interceptors so one must be the white and green Brownie boat? it is mentioned that one is not propped right and one is new and not broken in that's about it. If they did test the volvo boat then they are idiots the boat is running at it TOP WOT speed of around 40 mph and is not under propped.

If you look at the Fred Darwick Collection on .org you can see a pic of Wynne from that photo shoot driving what looks like the same red and white volvo boat running nose high it looks to be short straked from what I can see in the photo


I am working on a flow chart type filter that will sort in or sort out the hulls

here is the pic courtesy Fred Darwick and DMRS

http://www.donzi.org/library_pics/collections/fred_darwick/12-scan0012.jpg

[mattyboy]

Ok let's see if I can get a few questions answered and then I can refine the data filter to sort the hulls

what drive is on this 16?

what hull number would this 16 be?

[Greg Guimond]

.............. this picture is from the same aerial photo shoot that the BW brownie pic is taken. the caption under the picture in that article says that Wynne is at the wheel but Wynne was not at that test session so popular boating used a stock photo................

Interesting. Would you mind posting that same Sal M photo in "standalone" form taken sometime prior to the April 15, 1965 Dick Borden test? Also, who are the two guys driving the Volvo and Eaton boats in Sal's photo?

[mattyboy]

the guy at the wheel of the volvo boat is Jim Wynne according to the caption underneath the pic according to the article Wynne was not part of the test ride . the author Dick Borden and Bob Cox test drove the tech info is so scarce in this article maybe I missed it where does it say what the power and drive were in the test boat the author used.

Also take into account by April of 1965 Wynne and Don had Parted ways so why would Wynne be driving a 16 at that time That is why I said the pics are from the same shoot as the ones you have posted from Brownie and Fred Darwick.

[Greg Guimond]

Can you post Sal's standalone picture taken well before the test?

[mattyboy]

The only pic I have is from the article, But Again in April of 1965 Wynne and Don had Parted ways so why is he driving a Donzi for a test article to benefit Donzi. From stories I hear the split was not friendly Wynne was said to have poked Don when he had the chance at the races.

I would say that's Brownie at the wheel of the eaton I have checked both sets of pics and that pic is very dark but some things match from the other pics.

[mattyboy]

I guess this illustrates my point as i look at certain items , facts or pics I say it walks like a duck it quacks like a duck but it has no feathers it has scales? when you posted that pic it hit me April of 65 Wynne is not there so the pic needs to be earlier than the test and article.

the strakes are the next thing that throw me for a loop without having a proven example.

[Greg Guimond]

What about my three earlier posts including where Brownie signs the first two hulls built and then where Tomron indicated his picture was Hull #1. What do you make of those photos as Hull #1 and Hull #2 ?


Try to focus first on Hull #1 and Hull #2. We have a hand written note that Alan Brown scribed. The black and white photo and note are below. In addition, we also have two color photos of the same boats that show an Eaton drive and a Volvo AQ200 (albeit euro loaner) drive. Impossible to tell how long the inner lifting strakes are from either photo.


.Then, you have noted Donzi Historian Thomas Ronnberg (tomron@bredband.net) from Sweden saying that the 4th picture was handed to him in person by Brownie in 2002 as 16 Hull #1. Inner strakes are not really visible.

[mattyboy]

Greg

the first three pics you just posted are from the same shoot that these are again from Fred Darwick at .org


83556

83557
83558

the pics of the Wynne boat above show short strakes which means the long straked b&w boat shown bottom only must be the first hull.

[mattyboy]

outdrive filter

volvo aq100

control connections are external and exposed
water pick up not in drive seperate volvo penta made exhaust water pickup transom housing
Exhaust same as above

volvo aq 200
control connections are integral and not exposed
water pickup integral in drive
exhaust intergral in drive

eaton series 16
control connections are external and exposed
water pickup direct thru hull bottom
exhaust direct thru transom

so now let's look at the bottom pick one more time and run it thru this filter

we can see it is not an eaton or a aq 100 it is an aq200

[Greg Guimond]

Greg, the first three pics you just posted are from the same shoot that these are again from Fred Darwick at .org

Matty, of course they are from the same photography session. That is why I posted them up side by side for all to compare. Kudos to Fred and .org

[Greg Guimond]

...............so now let's look at the bottom pick one more time and run it thru this filter, we can see it is not an eaton or a aq 100, it is an aq200


I don't know man. What you can see of the drive (very little) ain't crisp enough to tell much about the bullet or skeg. I'm also not sure Donzi would not have airbrushed out a transom mounted water pickup for a prime time photo like that. Many people would probably be asking what the hell that "stick" is glued to the transom. If I'm a marketing guy over at Grossman, I'm telling Don it's a visual distraction for the public against the perfect lines of Walt's hull.

Not saying you are wrong, but IMO you'd need a transom shot to be 100% confirmed. You probably have one.

[Greg Guimond]

Just as a side bar thought, is that hull bottom picture an actual photograph or some type of rendering? I'm not familiar with the technologies that were available back then. The lifting strakes almost look they are shaded in. I might also just need more coffee lol.

[mattyboy]

Just as a side bar thought, is that hull bottom picture an actual photograph or some type of rendering? I'm not familiar with the technologies that were available back then. The lifting strakes almost look they are shaded in. I might also just need more coffee lol.

I would say that is a photograph with it on the lift taken from below it must have been setup you can see the background lighting hitting the side of the hull as well as the gas vent and lifting rings. I agree the public would think with a bottom water pickup "holy **** Liza there a whole in the boat" so they would brush that out but would they brush in a feature that wasn't there? now we are heading to a "glassy Knoll" area . They must have used a black back drop to cover up what would be seen from below like the sky if was taken out on water lift or the ceiling in the plant if it were taken inside. To me it also looks like the angle of the nose is a bit higher making the shot look longer , it also reminds me a a pic I took of the 19 cig upside down during it's resto there's alot of curve to it.

[BUIZILLA]

why the 2 blade prop?

[mattyboy]

why the 2 blade prop?
not sure Jim

all the early pics of the aq200 show a two blade the Teknikens boat is a 2 blade so is the pic on the trailer. Also the pic in the 4 page brochure with it on the lift shows a two blade prop.



the water pickups on the aq200 would not be seen at the angle of the bottom pic. If you look at the B&w pic on the trailer the water intake can be seen it looks very high to me for some reason I will have to research that

[mattyboy]

the height on the trailer pic and the tekniken pic of the aq 200 show the water pickup much higher above the gear torpedo than that of my 280

[mattyboy]

I am wondering now if there may have been another reason the eaton was the choice for power in the eraly stages perhaps the aq200 at speed was getting to much air in the water flow causing an overheating issue? I always wondered why they had a bottom pickup on my 16 with a eaton aq200 drive? I did check pics on the HM 250 that replaced my eaton and the pickup grate is much lower but HM still decided to use the bottom pickup and blocked off the drive pickup. even with later drives the steering fork water pickup thru the drive had issues with seals letting air into the cooling stream causing an overheat while on plane.


If Jay reads this and he still has the old 200 lower that went from his 16 if he could look at the water intake or if he has pics of the old lower.

I wonder if Volvo needed to redesign the lower case so Donzi was forced to use more eaton power at the get go.???????

[jl1962]

Good catch Matty on the water intake.

The 200 (hard to see) was just below the cav plate.
The 250 (close up) was several inches lower.

83562

83563

Also - FWIW, my gas tank had a 12/29/66/date on the tag on a boat that was completed in April '67

[mattyboy]

Jay my date to no surprise had a dec 66 date as well. Do you know if tony was using the drive water pickup or was yours setup with a separate pickup at the factory?

[jl1962]

Good eyes again.

I added the water pickup, visible behind the port side tab, after a season or two w/ the 250 lower.
The boat was starting to overheat on plane. I think the issue wasn't so much the location of the water intake on the drive, but rather older, porous hoses and other internals - like trying to sip through a straw that has too many holes.

The stainless water pickup seemed the most expedient solution - and the boat ran very cool afterwards.

[Greg Guimond]

.
So I'm back from work and taking a closer look at the 16 "hull bottom" picture Matty posted earlier. The more I look at it, the more I say that it's darn tough for that drive to be attributed to either a AQ100 or a AQ200.

In addition, when I look really, really close, I'm still not sure it's a photograph. Having a hard time with #1 especially. Why is there a white line breaking the plane of the transom and encroaching under the keel a touch?
If Marlin drops by he might have some insights. I also would wonder looking at #2 how a strake would have two distinct shades from photography lighting.

Hmmmmmm :screwy:

[woobs]

...I also would wonder looking at #2 how a strake would have two distinct shades from photography lighting....

More than one light source.

[mattyboy]

Don and the gang has used this type of photo before. They took a pic of "genesis" at formula at the same angle only it is in color and was not setup for a press release you can see the ceiling and lights in the shop leading to a very dark exposure of the bottom. I would imagine a good shutter bug would setup background lighting to highlight the bottom

[mattyboy]

Good catch Matty on the water intake.

The 200 (hard to see) was just below the cav plate.
The 250 (close up) was several inches lower.

83562

83563

Also - FWIW, my gas tank had a 12/29/66/date on the tag on a boat that was completed in April '67

Jay
I wonder if the placement intake being higher lead to disturbed water in the blade area of the prop and that's why your 200 didn't like the Solas.
with the intake lower that disturbed water in more in the wide area of the hub on a Solas.

[Greg Guimond]

Ok Matty, that makes sense for 2 and 3 but how do you explain #1 below where the white line, which is supposedly a part of the drive, encroaches under the keel ?

[Ghost]

That baffled me too when I looked at this a day or so ago. Could it be a reflection of a flash or light by the camera, coming off of the lead edge of the drive?

[Greg Guimond]

Greg, I do believe that the black and white photos used in that brochure were taken sometime in 1964 but the 4 page "color" brochure was not available for Brownie to take to the Jax show in Nov of 64 that I confirmed that with Brownie. So I would move the publish release date on that brochure to Dec 64 or later but I would imagine this was available for the Jan '65 NY show.

I'm not sure what to think about that Ghost. I do know that you can't tell if it's an AQ200 Euro by looking at the drives bottom end, so I decided to look at the top of the same photo instead.

I think everyone agrees that at least the original black and white photograph of the "top down" shot of the Ski Sporter was probably taken in October, 1964 at the latest. After all, it was then used again in mainstream magazine Motorboating's advertisement for Donzi dated December, 1964 and it takes time to prepare the issue. Also Matty makes an interesting point above. But when I look at the top down shot and look specifically at the top of the drive, the cap looks odd.

Anyone know what's up with the 6 bolts and cover I see in the picture below? It doesn't look like either an AQ100 or an AQ200 "top" to me but maybe I am missing something.

[mattyboy]

I'm not sure what to think about that Ghost. I do know that you can't tell if it's an AQ200 Euro by looking at the drives bottom end, so I decided to look at the top of the same photo instead.

I think everyone agrees that at least the original black and white photograph of the "top down" shot of the Ski Sporter was probably taken in October, 1964 at the latest. After all, it was then used again in mainstream magazine Motorboating's advertisement for Donzi dated December, 1964 and it takes time to prepare the issue. Also Matty makes an interesting point above. But when I look at the top down shot and look specifically at the top of the drive, the cap looks odd.

Anyone know what's up with the 6 bolts and cover I see in the picture below? It doesn't look like either an AQ100 or an AQ200 "top" to me but maybe I am missing something.


Greg

there is no "Euro" an aq200 is an aq200 as far as the drive is concerned, the motor at that time was volvo proprietary or "euro". My use of prototype was to say that that drive was never really seen in public until the aq200 goes to the Jax show


the top down shots shows an aq200
the 5 allen head bolts and 1 flathead screw are from an AQ200 ( or newer aq250-270) the lower holds the torque fin/exhaust port the 4 outer ones hold the top cap on and the center slothead is for the drive oil dipstick.

[mattyboy]

here is a top shot of my aq280 the basic drive design is the same from the aq200 to the aq290 some features and shapes changed a bit but the basic design is the same.

the aq280 had a different anti-cav plate design than the aq200-270 but you can see the basic layout is the same on mine. my top does have an air bleed that is the ridge you see in the top cap my 250 didn't have that ( nor would a 200) when you fill the oil for the drive

4 allen heads hold the top cap
1 slothead for the dipstick
1 allen head to the torque fin

[Greg Guimond]

Greg, the 5 allen head bolts and 1 flathead screw are from an AQ200 ( or newer aq250-270) the lower holds the torque fin/exhaust port the 4 outer ones hold the top cap on and the center slothead is for the drive oil dipstick.

So was this "top cap" present starting with the 1964 AQ200 drives right through the much later AQ280's?

[mattyboy]

So was this "top cap" present starting with the 1964 AQ200 drives right through the much later AQ280's?

yes the same basic design for the top cap also the shift cover design stayed pretty much the same too aq200 to 280. the other thing you don't see in top down shot is the tell tall round ears in the upper housing on each side.

they did change the top design on the late version of the 290 before the aq's went away for the sx/cobra and more modern drives

[mattyboy]

here is a pic of the side ears on the aq100 the aq200 upper was smooth and flat on both sides. the top cap on the aq100 is a bit different and there is no bolt near the back of the anti cav plate

[Greg Guimond]

here is a pic of the side ears on the aq100 the aq200 upper was smooth and flat on both sides. the top cap on the aq100 is a bit different and there is no bolt near the back of the anti cav plate

That's an interesting picture. To me, the outdrive pictured in the black and white "looking down" photo almost looks more like an AQ100 than the 200. Candidly, it does not look like either when you look close.

[Greg Guimond]

Now I'm not sure. Probably is a 200 as you say Matty. I get B but what is A and C below though?

[mattyboy]

"A" is the blade of the prop sticking out


"C" is the bolt that holds the exhaust port torque tab combo in place on an aq200 in fact now that I look at the bottom pic again the exhaust port torque tab is sticking out a bit on the left side of the pic above the prop blade. This could mean the camera was not exactly centered which would cause different shadowing on the photo or the drive is slightly turned to one side.

If you look at the trailer pic the tab is seen but if you look at the Teknikens boat is is not seen because that boat has a thru hull exhaust the one on the trailer doesn't.

[Greg Guimond]

"A" is the blade of the prop sticking out. "C" is the bolt that holds the exhaust port torque tab combo in place on

Ok, gotcha on "A" and agree.

As to C, I'm not talking about just the trailing bolt. The picture shows an entire raised metal z'cavityz' that looks to be at the same level as the top cap. What is that entire cavity thingy doing there for an AQ200?
.

[mattyboy]

Ok, gotcha on "A" and agree.

As to C, I'm not talking about just the trailing bolt. The picture shows an entire raised metal z'cavityz' that looks to be at the same level as the top cap. What is that entire cavity doing there for an AQ200?
.


Greg
that is not at the same level it is below you can see the shadow along the raised edge of what is the exhaust chamber on an AQ200 the bolt goes thru the exhaust chamber an into the tab

the cavity is the exhaust chamber which is just above the anti cav plate on the aq200 250 and 270

[mattyboy]

look at Jay's 200 the bolt you see is directly above where the tab is and that raised section above the anti cav plate is where the exhaust exits if you use the thru drive exhaust like the B&W one on the trailer.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=83562&d=1249349704

[mattyboy]

the angle is directly over head so it is sort of an optical illusion as there is no depth perception but it is surely below and is the bolt that holds the tab on

the end of the end cap is in the general area of the red line and is well above the exhaust chamber outlined in yellow it does look like the drive is turned slightly in this pic too.

[Greg Guimond]

Ok Matty, that makes sense for 2 and 3 but how do you explain #1 below where the white line, which is supposedly a part of the drive, encroaches under the keel ?


That baffled me too when I looked at this a day or so ago. Could it be a reflection of a flash or light by the camera, coming off of the lead edge of the drive?

Matty, what do you think the white line (#1) is under the keel in the pic below?

[mattyboy]

Matty, what do you think the white line (#1) is under the keel in the pic below?

a reflection of the drive on the hull due to multiple lighting sources and the angle of the pic or an anomaly in the original photo or in the digitization of the scanned photo

[Greg Guimond]

Hmmmmm ......... Let's keep going. What do you attribute "A" "B" and "C" to in the photograph below?

[mattyboy]

I would say a reflection. I looked at the "genesis" pic which was at the same angle and you could see the reflection of both drives on the back of the hull towards the transom

[mattyboy]

"A" is a speedo pitot tube that boat has an added speedo on the right side of the dash near the back of the passenger front seat pad.

"B" is the thru hull for the bilge pump this can be seen on the trailer pic

"C" not sure as of yet

[mattyboy]

"C" could be an anchor point for the teleflex style steering cable fitting , on my 16 it was attached to the port riser on my 351 on a 4 banger it may need to be attached to the transom cause it isn't that wide

[mattyboy]

the teknikens boat also has a Carriage bolt in the same location must be for the steering, it does look like they moved the bilge pump outlet over to the starboard side I am sure the hose on the fitting directly over the drive got in the way of the yolk and steering cable end making them move the fitting.

[Greg Guimond]

the teknikens boat also has a Carriage bolt in the same location must be for the steering, it does look like they moved the bilge pump outlet over to the starboard side I am sure the hose on the fitting directly over the drive got in the way of the yolk and steering cable end making them move the fitting.

Yes fine Sir, the Swedish magazine boat in fact does have it, but the boat in the FPCB (Four Page Color Brochure) does NOT have anything in that location. It does have the same "B" hull fitting, but just no "C".

Alan Brown said that the FPCB was not in his hands in time for his drive up to the November 13, 1964 Jacksonville Boat Show with the boat pictured below in tow behind his Lincoln after it was disconnected from the El Camino below.

[mattyboy]

pics may have been taken before the boat was fully rigged or that boat had a non teleflex or Volvo type steering setup that didn't need the anchor point

[Greg Guimond]

Kickoff and a cropped picture of the boat from the FPCB ..........

[woobs]

Hmmmmm ......... Let's keep going. What do you attribute "A" "B" and "C" to in the photograph below?

A could possibly be an old type pitot tube for a speedometer?

[Greg Guimond]

I believe that the boat shown in the Four Page Color Brochure on the travel-lift is the same boat shown behind the El Camino and also alone on the trailer. It's therefore the white 16 with a blue deck and waterline stripe and the first production AQ200 drive that was shown at the Jax boat show by Brownie.

[Greg Guimond]

Hmmmmm ......... Let's keep going. What do you attribute "A" "B" and "C" to in the photograph below?


"A" is a speedo pitot tube that boat has an added speedo on the right side of the dash near the back of the passenger front seat pad.

"B" is the thru hull for the bilge pump this can be seen on the trailer pic

"C" not sure as of yet

For "A" do you have a photo handy of the actual speedometer you mention on the white and red boat with Wynne driving?

[mattyboy]

For "A" do you have a photo handy of the actual speedometer you mention on the white and red boat with Wynne driving?
Greg
The Sam M pic you posted

[Greg Guimond]

Greg, The Sam M pic you posted

This picture?

[mattyboy]

yes that one

[mattyboy]

looking at the eaton ford powered Brownie boat and other early eaton boats they also had an anchor point for the teleflex steering port side of transom and the bilge outlet starboard side of transom along with the tell tale 3 triangular carriage bolts on each side of the drive

leading me to believe that the Wynne boat and the Teknikens boat( at least control cables) were rigged stateside. The wynne boat didn't have a dash plate and a stripe that goes down the dash again making me think they didn't have all the little pieces from VP yet like the dash plate and other fittings . The press boat looks to not have a dash plate with a stripe that goes down the dash but it doesn't have the anchor point for the teleflex steering which means it is not a teleflex setup or they used and internal bracket mounted somewhere in the bilge.

[Greg Guimond]

.
Based on the bits and pieces of newly discovered information that have been defined and refined in this thread, is it fair to say that the legendary Donzi Four Page Color Brochure (pictured below) was produced in November by the Florida firm Gross/Greenman Advertising and then finally printed and distributed by mid December, 1964?
.

[Greg Guimond]

.
Several of the same photos seen in the FPCB above would also be used to create the December 1, 1964 and January 1, 1965 Motor Boating magazine adverts below. These are the first two known national magazine advertisements for the Ski Sporter 16 ever created for the public. They also represent the 16s first ever published price increase, from $3,895 to $3,995. The meaning of North Miami Beach "62" remains a mystery.

[Greg Guimond]

.
The written copy in Donzi's December ad above would leverage the reputation and success that Volvo was having at the time with both there AQ100 & AQ200 drives in the US market as shown in the magazine ad below.
.
Contrary to early thread opinions, both the AQ100 & AQ200 were being manufactured side by side on the assembly lines of Volvo Penta and available new to the public. Creating confusion, Donzi would use both in the 16.
.

[Greg Guimond]

.
And while all of the above was happening with the new 1964 Ski Sporter 16 model, the factory was out racing the bigger boats. Witness below, the success of the five 1964 Donzi race boats entered in the brand new companies first ever ocean race ......... the brutal 158 mile Miami-to-Key West race which was run on November 6, 1964.

With the passing of Waltman Walters last year, the only remaining living member of that windy 1964 November days race team is now Alan "Brownie" Brown, 83 years old and living somewhere in Florida.
.

[Greg Guimond]

So with that November '64 race activity in mind, re-set your timeline thoughts with when Don Aronow actually sold his prior company Formula before he took a breath, and went on to start Donzi Marine.

The sale of Formula was just 5 months earlier on May 5th, 1964.

[Greg Guimond]

And several years earlier, a very slight glance at what would become the 16 Ski Sporter was helped along by a man by the name of Howard Abbey, head of "Abbey Boat Works" and a master boat builder of the day.

Howard was not afraid of competing either. Below is a picture of Howard racing in 1956.

[Greg Guimond]

.
Jim Wynne would go talk to Howard Abbey in Miami and ask him to build a small race boat, "Wyn Mill", that would go on to be a 17' winner. One of the people who helped physically build that boat, working at
the Abbey Boat Works in 1962 was amazingly Alan "Brownie" Brown. The boat built in Miami would be added to two boats of similar design built in Europe that would run in the 1963 Paris 6 Hour as a team.

The picture below is of the three boats at the Paris dock in October 1963. Note that all three boats have Volvo drives. I have added the 1963 Paris caption fyi. Note that the boat in the center WAS shipped from US to Paris in 1963. This is according to Alan Brown.

[Greg Guimond]

.
Then, in early 1964 Jim Wynne and Walt Walters were asked to design (by Dick Wilkens) two new race boats. One was a 17 footer that would run a Volvo drive coupled to a special 170hp Coventry Climax race motor.
But the other boat was a 16 footer with a stock 110hp Volvo and a Volvo drive. These two boats would be raced in the October, 1964 Paris 6 hour race. That's right, only one month before Donzi breaks onto the race scene back in the USA and three months after Walt Walters finishes the line drawings for the 16 Ski Sporter model for Donzi. One of those two boats is pictured below. Look familiar?

Remember that this boat (pictured below) is running in Paris at some point in the first two weeks of October, 1964.

[Greg Guimond]

.
And here is a picture of the same #65 boat with it's hull bottom exposed at the Paris 6 Hour, October 1964. I haven't been able to find the exact day that the race occurred in October, but there were 80 boats entered.
.

[Greg Guimond]

.
From that point in October of 1964, there is no evidence of a 16 Ski Sporter entering a race until Fred Darwick and his wife Judy enter there new 16 in the Januray 2, 1965 Orange Bowl 9 Hour race.

Fred ordered his 16 new and the factory built it for him. He picked the boat up on December 10, 1964 and raced the hell out of it for a full year. He had a secret weapon though, his Volvo had twin 2 barrel side draft Solex carbs, modified cyl head and valves for higher compression, and a water jacketed dry exhaust manifold. Power was a significant 140hp with these changes. Of particular importance is that the AQ100 lower unit was delivered with a totally custom 3" longer torpedo (front to back) to lessen cavitation. Of course it also had a $10 Aquameter speedo.
.

[woobs]

Jim Wynne would go talk to Howard Abbey in Miami and ask him to build a small race boat, "Wyn Mill", that would go on to be a 17' winner. One of the people who helped physically build that boat, working at
the Abbey Boat Works in 1962 was Alan Brown. The boat built in Miami would be added to two boats of similar design built in Europe that would run in the 1963 Paris 6 Hour as a team.

The picture of the three boats at the dock in October 1963 is below. Note that all three boats have Volvo drives. I have added the 1963 Paris caption fyi

Greg,
Regarding the picture of (in order) Thunderbox, Wynn Mill II and Thunderflash... this is interesting as the caption with this picture says the three boats are constructed of glass fiber.... and we know the WynMill II, Thunderflash and Thunderbox all to be constructed from wood. Further, it says all three boats were constructed in England (2 in Cowes by Souter and one by Camper & Nicholson's.)

How can we account for this? While I'm sure the glass-fiber comment is in error, do you think it's possible that the Original Wynn Mill II made in the USA was a different boat than the Wynn Mill II actually raced in Europe? (It has a different deck)

83678

[woobs]

Also, the #65 boat is another one of the Wynn Mill II derivatives . Given it's 17'LOA and strake layout it looks more like a Formula Jr. than a Ski Sporter despite it's squared transom. There were other derivatives of the Wynn Mill II Design.... like #19 RI that has some more obvious differences and some that even posted the Wynn Mill II name on the side like # 140 Blue Blazer.

The # 64 & # 36 is Thunderbox (WM II sister) at different times.

The #72 boat is Thunderflash, which has just undergone a recent restoration in England. It is said this is the closest sister to Wynn Mill II. This boat has seen several configurations over the years.

There's no doubt that all these boats share design DNA with the Ski Sporter and the Jr. However, dimensionally I don't believe any of these similar race boats are an exact sister of their production cousins from the USA.

It was also reported that the Souters Boatworks were going to start a production model of these WM II type boats but, it never really got started.


83669836708367783676
836718367283673

[mattyboy]

The Jim Hardie article is dead balls on Don had no interest in mass production or long term sales with his boats . he wanted to design and research for racing and then sell the start up company to someone else to run. By Oct 65 he sells Donzi too All he needs to do is keep the winning designs coming out and win races. create the need , sell and repeat.

[Greg Guimond]

Very similar to how Silicon Valley does things today. Old Don was waaaaay ahead of his time back in 1964.

[Greg Guimond]

Greg, regarding the picture of (in order) Thunderbox, Wynn Mill II and Thunderflash... this is interesting as the caption with this picture says the three boats are constructed of glass fiber.... and we know the WynMill II, Thunderflash and Thunderbox all to be constructed from wood. Further, it says all three boats were constructed in England (2 in Cowes by Souter and one by Camper & Nicholson's.)

How can we account for this? While I'm sure the glass-fiber comment is in error, do you think it's possible that the Original Wynn Mill II made in the USA was a different boat than the Wynn Mill II actually raced in Europe? (It has a different deck)

woobs you bring up a good point which leads me to ask, "why would Jim and Walt ship a boat from the US to Europe" if they had at least three hulls already there, competitive, and running Volvo power?

[Greg Guimond]

.
woobs, is the order of your name descriptives (Thunderbox, Wynn Mill II and Thunderflash) running from left to right in the photo below from October 1963?

[mattyboy]

you can see the lineage in those early race boats of what would become the SkiSporter but I have to say the high rounded gunwales on #65 are really FUGLY.

I wonder how much Don impacted the design of the 16? Don had a vision of what the boat should look like and was not shy about it.

When I met with Walt at Mystic a few years back we were looking at the 28 sportsman drawings he told us of the story about the 28. He was working on the line drawings at his drawing table and Don came over to him he proudly showed the drawings to Don who promptly picked up a pencil and crossed out Walt's lines and drew in his own. I said to Walt I'd be pissed Walt laughed a little and said I couldn't be mad the lines Don drew in made it a much better looking boat " he was right" Walt said .

back to the time line as I always felt racing was the main focus and the real production gear up happened in early 65. That's why there are no Donzi's in the pic of the press boat on the lift. The race boats were out on the circuit and production at not really started.

I am thinking they had one production Hornet made by the end of 64 for the NY show and probably 6-7 16s

the NY show puts Donzi on the map and the ball is now rolling and plans would be made for Don's next venture

[woobs]

.
woobs, is the order of your name descriptives (Thunderbox, Wynn Mill II and Thunderflash) running from left to right in the photo below from October 1963?

Yes. You can see by the curve of the "barrelback" transom/tumblehome shape that WM II and Thunderflash (on the right) are the same, while Thunderbox (on the left) is different as it is more flat across the deck portion.

[Greg Guimond]

Also, the #65 boat below is another one of the Wynn Mill II derivatives . Given it's 17 'LOA and the strake layout, it looks more like a Formula Jr. than a Ski Sporter despite it's squared transom...............


8366983670



woobs, do you happen to know what year the two photos above of the #65 boat were taken? Even better would be month and year? Thx.

One thing that is now clear is that there were Wynn Mill's here, there, and everywhere. Jim and Walt were pushing there design pencils a ton in 1962 and that does not even take into consideration the 1961 Wynn Mill that was found and photographed in Miami that no one here could ever really figure out.

[Greg Guimond]

........back to the time line, as I always felt racing was the main focus and the real production gear up happened in early '65. That's why there are no Donzi's in the pic of the press boat on the lift. The race boats were out on the circuit and production had not really started. I am thinking they had one production Hornet made by the end of '64 for the NY show and probably 6-7 16s.

I think that 6-7 is still low for Ski Sporter's built in 1964. I'm pretty firm on 10 now that Sam Ballinger's 16 has been booted off the "Class of 1964" list :frown:

[woobs]

I think that 6-7 is still low for Ski Sporter's built in 1964. I'm pretty firm on 10 now that Sam Ballinger's 16 has been booted off the "Class of 1964" list :frown:
I agree.

Greg, I have e-mailed my English contact to ask for the info.
In another post from "over there" he mentions that there were so many derivations, variations and experiments with the basic EM II design that even Walt lost count.

[Greg Guimond]

Should be interesting to see what your contact has to say. Here is a bit of framework. Jim Wynne was personally in England for the September 7, 1963 Cowes Race. Behind the wheel of a boat called Yo-Yo II, a 20' Bertram with twin Volvo 110's, he placed third overall. Friends evidently convinced him to stay around and rush together three Wynn Mill like hulls to run in the Paris 6 Hour that year. That tells us that the Paris 6 took place at the very end of 1963 and he had fast track biz connections to get three boats built quickly. Wynne pulled the three boats together and put Volvo 110's in each as we can see from the excellent photo. Those three boats took home two trophy's in the 1963 Paris 6 Hour and people took notice. Several guys who ran outboard boats in that race are still with us today. Your contact may recognize Jackie Wilson.

Now ......... fast forward one full year to Q4 of 1964. Wynne and Walt Walters were asked to build two NEW boats to race in the 1964 Paris 6 Hour. These were not the boats used in 1963 and there is no mention of where they were physically built but one is 17' and one is 16'. Yes, one is 16' and runs a Volvo 110 motor and what I would assume is a AQ100 drive. I'm thinking that the motor used could be the "Hot Volvo" package.

I'm now wondering if the #65 boat (pictured below) you are getting feedback on woobs is actually the 16 footer that was run at the Paris 6 Hour in either October, November, or December, 1964. If it is, it was built/rigged/raced at the identical time that Walt Walters was laying down the drafting lines for the soon to be released Donzi Ski Sporter. And on top of that, Jim Wynne and Walt Walters actually piloted this boat together in Paris for that race. I now personally believe that NO Wynn Mill hull built in the US was shipped over to Europe. Only Mr. Walters would have known for sure - RIP


** I still do not know the exact date of the Paris 6 Hour

[woobs]

Greg, you are correct. The #65 boat IS Thunderbox, a 16' LOA built at Souters on W-W plans for Sopwith... I stand corrected.
Still waiting on date of photos.

[Greg Guimond]

Greg, you are correct. The #65 boat IS Thunderbox, a 16' LOA built at Souters on W-W plans for Sopwith... I stand corrected. Still waiting on date of photos.

No worries, thx. Here are pictures below of the two boats in the 1964 Paris 6 Hour. I did a little more checking and it turns out I was wrong on one thing. There was a 3rd Wynn Walters design entered in the 1964 race that was actually built for the '63 race and was driven by a Frenchmen. The two newly built boats shown below, were both built at Souters (as you had said woobs) but Tom Sopwith actually was the pilot for the #64 boat on the right below, while Wynne and Walters teamed up to drive the smaller 16' #65 boat below. Tommy Sopwith did not finish the 1964 Paris race because his Coventry motor blew up. Jim Wynne and Walt Walters not only finished the race in the #65 boat below, but they finished 2nd overall running Volvo power and drive in the 16 footer. I'm pretty sure on all of this.

When I look at the 16 foot #65 boat and think of a Ski Sporter, man do they both look awfully similar.

I also was able to find out that the 1964 Paris 6 Hour Race took place sometime in either September or October of 1964, almost identical timing to the first 16 Ski Sporter being pulled from the mold back in Miami.

[HallJ]

Does this work?

https://books.google.com/books?id=92rWxakaFAoC&pg=PT319&lpg=PT319&dq=walt+walters+dick+wilkins&source=bl&ots=SovwVu5XJ7&sig=dJtPUJQY-1CewQyNgnWIzByQDoY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiAtpv95rTKAhWBlYMKHc6WCZAQ6AEIGjAA#v=on epage&q&f=true

You guys are getting pretty geeky with this.

With any luck I'll be thrashing around Cowes in Thunderflash during the race weekend.

Jeff

[woobs]

That's awesome Jeff!

Maybe when you see Mike, you two can dig up some plans from those Souter built W-W boats :)

[Greg Guimond]

.
So back to the timeline. Here is how I now see the 1964 Ski Sporter builds ---- Sam's boat is removed

Hull 1. White with Red deck & water line stripe - Jim Wynne driving - Mike Aronow writes of test run in KOTBR. Drive identified as a Volvo AQ200 Euro loaner - No Deck Grab Rail. Photo thought to be taken Sept/Oct 1964
Hull 2. White with Green deck stripe - Alan Brown pictured driving - Ford/Eaton motor and Eaton flip up drive - No Deck Grab Rail. Brownie and Wynne photos (shown below) thought to be taken September/October 1964
Hull 3. Frank Civitano's Dad's solid green boat w/red deck stripe. Frank said purchase took place in 1964 and boat was used Summer of 1964. Motor and drive as yet unknown. Deck Grab Rail Unknown. Pics lost in Sandy
Hull 4. Jacksonville Boat Show boat 11/13/64 - White w/ Blue deck stripe and blue water line stripe. Shown in press photo behind El Camino, & on Travel-Lift. First AQ200 Production drive ever in USA - No Deck Grab Rail
Hull 5. Teknikens Varld Swedish Magazine boat - White with Red deck stripe. New "shortened" inner lifting strakes & single thru hull exhaust in photo - No Grab Rail. Ship out possibly hastened by the 10/1/64 dock strike
Hull 6. Bob Cox and Ed Joyce Lauderdale Marine boat. Have not found any photos yet but Cox was initially a Formula and then a Donzi dealer. Hot Volvo 110 and Volvo 100 drive. Deck Grab Rail unknown
Hull 7. Fred Darwick race boat - Invoice #67 was dated 12/10/1964. White with Green deck stripe and green water line stripe. Special Hot Volvo performance 110 motor and special race 100 lower unit. No Deck Grab Rail
Hull 8. David D. Ray boat - White with Blue stripe. Volvo powered initially with the same "Hot Volvo 110/100" package. Boat still exists in Florida today but Matty has not gotten a photo
Hull 9. January 15, 1965 New York Boat Show 16 - could have then continued North to the Shepherd boys? Or was an entirely different 1964 hull shipped up to Canada? woobs asking TIBS
Hull 10. Second New York Boat Show - did it exist? Only Brownie would remember

Some of the logic --

#1, #2 ... basically boils down to Alan Brown's saying so when he wrote on the B+W photograph shown below
#3 ......... is based on Frank Civitano saying his Dad was personal friends with Don A through construction, and that they used the 16 in the Summer of 1964 in Southern New Jersey
#4 ......... based on super high resolution B+W photos and Alan Brown remembering towing the exact same hull with his Lincoln to Jax instead of using the El Camino in the picture
#5 ......... Teknikens Varld boat (T Ronnberg aka Tomron) tied to dock workers strike concerns forcing shipment by late November to test shorter strakes which Walters had to design based on first 16's handling poorly
#6 ......... revolves around Lauderdale Marina being the first Donzi dealer in Florida. Bob Cox and Ed Joyce were friends with Don A and Brownie already through racing a Formula 233 in the April, 1964 Miami-Nassau Race
#7 ......... based on Fred Darwick's preserved factory invoice and date. I wonder what the heck the factory invoiced the (66) times prior?
#8 ......... based on Fred Darwick's memory and boat still being in existence in Florida
#9, #10.. tied closely to the first exhibitor day (1-13-65) of the NY show and transport time required in the dead of Winter and to the business relationship that Shepherd boats in Canada had with Donzi
.

[Greg Guimond]

.
I also have taken many close looks at the two photos below. My opinion is that there is not enough resolution in the photos below to determine if the inner stakes are truly "short".

[Greg Guimond]

.
Batten down the hatches, here comes the "Big Storm". Which basically means we will get about 6" lol and I'll run The Mule next week.

But ......... plenty of time to surf the net so I took a closer look at the few pictures available of the 1964 "Paris 6 Hour" event. This race was run in October '64 and the more I look at the #65 boat below, the more I say this is basically the first Donzi 16 Ski Sporter ever built. The hull may have been changed somewhat over later years, but looking at the photos below that were taken in 1964 the transom is square and the lines seem almost identical to a Ski Sporter. In addition, the magazine excerpt says that Jim Wynne and Walt Walters designed 'two brand new' boats for the 1964 Paris Race. One was 17' but the other was a 16 footer which is shown below. Wynne and Walters had Souters Boatyard, located in Cowes on the Isle of Wight build the boat pictured below. If the race was run in October why wouldn't Walt ask Souters to use the line drawings that he had already done in July, 1965 for the Ski Sporter to build the Paris boat? Of course #65 ran Volvo power.

The photo below is my mix and match BUT they are all from 1964 and all of the same hull .............
.

[woobs]

83691
....the more I look at the #65 boat below, the more I say this is basically the first Donzi 16 Ski Sporter ever built....

Uhm, yes... Ski Sporter... sure...

...except, she's made of wood ...
and she would have an entirely different support structure & engineering....
and different balance with placement of fuel tank etc...
and the centre steer, narrow cockpit...
and you don't really know the dimensions other than she's 16' LOA (not 16'8")...

I think she also has a taller freeboard. If you look how deep the seating position is and consider the frames etc... that are required in a wood construction the driver really sits "in" this hull.


So, Ski Sporter... no, not really. However, there is no mistaking the W-W DNA and the fact she has no tumblehome and a Volvo drive.

If you need to paint a lineage then, a derivation on the Wynn Mill theme... yes. (just like the Ski Sporter and hence the familiar look)

[Greg Guimond]

I dunno woobs but if you have a set of line drawings for a fiberglass Ski Sporter and you walk into Souter and say "build me this boat" and they say "sure, but it will have to be made out of wood" and you and Jim Wynne look at each other and say "works for us" than don't you kinda have a "wood" Ski Sporter? The support structure, balance and placement of a gas tank is no big deal for a firm like Souter, one of the best builders in the world at the time.

Obviously I do agree with you that the deck plan would have been modified to make it a cozy center steer and create the forward hatch to create access to who knows what.

Maybe I'm mixing up my 50 year old boat but isn't the #65 boat still in existence and running today? If it is, pretty easy to run a tape bow to stern to see if it's 16'8" long.

[woobs]

Except it's not. If you were to build these boats in wood under the nose of Donzi, and they took you to court for copyright infringement.... well, with all the differences, there wouldn't be a case.

In this case, you really don't know the dimensions. So, all you have is a common theme.

I've been asking for the W-W boats that might be left. Thunderbox is not among the known survivors. Many of these old racers have disappeared or left to rot. The Classic Offshore Powerboat Club is always looking for these old beauties and encourages their rescue. http://www.classicoffshore.com/blog/

Thunderflash actually became a yacht tender before languishing in a backyard slowly returning to the earth, before she was rescued.

[woobs]

Greg, as you know I'm a woody boat guy first. However, my design preference is for offshore performance boats and my production boat of choice is Donzi (not a pre-war CC kind of guy). So, given the Wynn Mill history through the 16 and the story of Donzi (or just Wynn-Walters), I have been after a boat that fits in this wood/performance group for years... to crown my "fleet".

This is why I bought my 16 project and planned a wooden deck. I felt bad about cutting up an early boat and still not having exactly what I wanted so, I sold it). I have looked endlessly for building plans of these boats(both in NA and the UK), including contacting Naval Architects to reverse engineer/design plans so that I may build the boat I truly want. This is why I still look for a Formula Jr. or a replica (which I believe is closer to the original concept).

Along with this quest has come a lot of research. None of which tells me that any boat is identical to a Donzi 16, let alone one of the early racers I covet. Of course these boats are similar as the designs evolved from the same mind, with the same purpose.... and the engineering evolved too, just like race cars evolve with lessons learned at the track. So, maybe Thunderbox was further along the evolutionary chain of the wooden era but, I think it is a totally different branch of the same tree that grew the Donzi 16.

There is no evidence that Walt/Jim/Don took the Ski Sporter line drawings to Souters for them to build. It is a nice dream and possibly wishful but, totally unfounded. Rather, Souters had plans from the original Wynn Mill II. They planned to build boats in England for sale but, this thought never progressed. Despite this, the WM II designs were available and many variations were built by several builders trying to be competitive on the race scene. Emulation of winning designs is common in all forms of competition. Thunderbox is a modified version of the WM II plans, not a wooden prototype of the Ski Sporter.

[Greg Guimond]

Maybe I'm mixing up my 50 year old boats but isn't the #65 boat still in existence and running today? If it is, pretty easy to run a tape bow to stern to see if it's 16'8" long.


I've been asking for the W-W boats that might be left. Thunderbox is not among the known survivors.

Gotcha, I did not know that #65 was named and that it has not survived. I thought someone had restored it. Oh well, bummer. Case closed as no one can ever measure it. Maybe at some point in the future
years #65 (aka Thunderbox in 1964) will be found in a barn in the English countryside.

Back to the snowstorm ............... and the 1964 Ski Sporter timeline :yes:

[mattyboy]

.
I also have taken many close looks at the two photos below. My opinion is that there is not enough resolution in the photos below to determine if the inner stakes are truly "short".

In this picture you can see a reflection on a flat edge which at the end of the strake the reflection then shows a shadow which would be where the strake end is angled in to a point if the strake continued so would the reflection. Also look at the shadow on the water under the back of the boat you can see clearly that the boat is airborne where only the last 7-12 inches are wetted so if it had long strakes they would be visible this is no doubt a short strake production 16. Also look at the surface spray exiting aft of the hook that will tell you the boat is airborne otherwise the spray would be exiting to the sides of the chine

http://www.donzi.org/library_pics/collections/fred_darwick/12-scan0012.jpg

Also Brownie confirms non white solid colored hulls are in 65 the earliest I know of may be Bertram boy's 16 which he believed to be hull 23 a 65 which was a true eaton powernaut outdrive

timeline

1. long straked hull press pic of the bottom prototype
1A. teknikens boat short straked sent to sweden for testing
2. white red Wynne volvo boat first production boat short straked fitted for public sale
3. white and green Brownie eaton boat 2nd production boat
4. white and blue Brownie Nov Jax show volvo boat 3rd production boat
5. Fred Darwick's volvo boat Dec

that is 6 with a month left ( the production time for one 16) in 64 as far as the NY show it has not been confirmed what or how many 16 were there ,it could be possible that existing boats made part of the show tour.

[mattyboy]

for reference here is a shot of my 16 airborne but not as much as the Wynne pic I posted the link to.

I would say i am running on the last 18 to 24 inches of the hull and you can see the spray exiting to the side at the chine

also you can see the flat edge of the inner strake even with the bottom not in direct sun light and where it ends

[mattyboy]

1. the long straked volvo aq200 boat hull is built before Walt's June 15th 1964 stability rails drawing which shows the short strakes . From your pics Walt had been working on several 16-esque boats. It is clear that the bottom shot took some time to setup so i think they use the prototype and set it up while they use another boat for the other pics . the long straked boat is not needed and can be taken for any period of time needed

1a the teknikens volvo aq200 boat is built late June after the mold for the 16 is reworked by filling in the end of the strakes in the existing mold it is rigged here in America by donzi and tested here and sent to Sweden by the end of july 64 to show sweden what they found. they run these two boats side by side in testing. We have had issues trying to tell long from short in pics but for testing purposes Donzi marks the hulls the long has a boot stripe the short doesn't making it easier to tell the two apart while running in person or pics

2-3 They know the short is the one they now make the changes permanent in the mold and build the wynne and brownie boats for upcoming sales demo this process is going on as well for the 28 and both 19s. August Sept.

4. the jax show boat built sept-oct for nov show

5. Fred Darwick's boat goes into the mold in Nov and is finished and billed by Dec at this point Donzi is not a production company . it takes 1 month as per donzi to build a 16 so we have a month left in 1964 after Fred's boat is sold I am not saying they didn't build any more I am saying they didn't build 4 more. At this point Donzi is a small company they probably only have 1 or two 16 molds and limited manpower to build boats In Jan of 65 after the NY show they explode

[mattyboy]

more on 1a. probably went something along the lines of . phone call to sweden hey we're having issues with hull 1 and the aq200 they brainstorm and say maybe it is disturbed water around the lower this leads them to shortened the strakes and as an added measure to make sure the new volvo exhaust integrated into the drive lower isn't causing the issue( the aq100 had a separate side unit for this) let the exhaust go thru the hull and plug and cap the exhaust openings ( as seen in the tekenkens pics). Hey Bjorn that worked ok Don can you send us a boat we want to study this.

[revkev6]

I have a question and I don't know if it should be posted here or not.... probably should have it's own thread... but I would like to interject with a question about Formula Boats and the Jr. Don sells Formula in 1964... and immediately starts production of the Donzi 16 ski sport?? Does anyone have dates regarding when the Jr went into production, Don sells Formula and then designs and builds the 16?? there has been lots of speculation regarding the the design of these two boats, including the Jr being based off the Wynn Mill and the Donzi being based off the Wynn Mill II

if you guys think this should be separate I will happily start a new thread to discuss.

[woobs]

more on 1a. probably went something along the lines of . phone call to sweden hey we're having issues with hull 1 and the aq200 they brainstorm and say maybe it is disturbed water around the lower this leads them to shortened the strakes and as an added measure to make sure the new volvo exhaust integrated into the drive lower isn't causing the issue( the aq100 had a separate side unit for this) let the exhaust go thru the hull and plug and cap the exhaust openings ( as seen in the tekenkens pics). Hey Bjorn that worked ok Don can you send us a boat we want to study this.

I read somewhere... that the real reason behind the shortened strakes was because these boats were not exactly overloaded with horsepower and the extra lift in the stern provided by the long full-length strakes combined with a lack of power to carry the bow resulted in an unbalanced boat. This situation caused a tendency to porpoise and bow steer and to compound the problem, was a dynamic issue that could not be solved with a static trim compromise setting on the drive. Further, a redesign of major balancing items was impractical (and ultimately, un-necessary). The "disturbed flow" was a rouse to keep the ever prying eyes of competitors (both racing and corporate) guessing just what Volvo and W-W designers were actually doing....because at this time, everybody watched what Don did.

[revkev6]

I read somewhere... that the real reason behind the shortened strakes was because these boats were not exactly overloaded with horsepower and the extra lift in the stern provided by the long full-length strakes combined with a lack of power to carry the bow resulted in an unbalanced boat. This situation caused a tendency to porpoise and bow steer and to compound the problem, was a dynamic issue that could not be solved with a static trim compromise setting on the drive. Further, a redesign of major balancing items was impractical (and ultimately, un-necessary). The "disturbed flow" was a rouse to keep the ever prying eyes of competitors (both racing and corporate) guessing just what Volvo and W-W designers were actually doing.

I have no good information on hull designs.. out of my wheelhouse. BUT... the earlier formula Jr. had a similar setup with the short inner strakes. user "Playin' Boats" posted up some GREAT shots of the hull on his.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y34/revkev6/formula%20jr/jr%20hull3.jpg (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/revkev6/media/formula%20jr/jr%20hull3.jpg.html)
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y34/revkev6/formula%20jr/jr%20hull.jpg (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/revkev6/media/formula%20jr/jr%20hull.jpg.html)
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y34/revkev6/formula%20jr/jr%20hull4.jpg (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/revkev6/media/formula%20jr/jr%20hull4.jpg.html)
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y34/revkev6/formula%20jr/jr%20hull2.jpg (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/revkev6/media/formula%20jr/jr%20hull2.jpg.html)

found some shots of a flipped 16 to compare, seems the strakes are shorter on the donzi?

http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo133/cigcaferacer/Donzi/IMG00167-20110820-1449.jpg (http://s369.photobucket.com/user/cigcaferacer/media/Donzi/IMG00167-20110820-1449.jpg.html)
http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo133/cigcaferacer/Donzi/IMG00166-20110820-1449.jpg (http://s369.photobucket.com/user/cigcaferacer/media/Donzi/IMG00166-20110820-1449.jpg.html)
http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo133/cigcaferacer/Donzi/IMG00149-20110724-1342.jpg (http://s369.photobucket.com/user/cigcaferacer/media/Donzi/IMG00149-20110724-1342.jpg.html)
http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo133/cigcaferacer/Donzi/IMG00165-20110820-1448.jpg (http://s369.photobucket.com/user/cigcaferacer/media/Donzi/IMG00165-20110820-1448.jpg.html)

[mattyboy]

I read somewhere... that the real reason behind the shortened strakes was because these boats were not exactly overloaded with horsepower and the extra lift in the stern provided by the long full-length strakes combined with a lack of power to carry the bow resulted in an unbalanced boat. This situation caused a tendency to porpoise and bow steer and to compound the problem, was a dynamic issue that could not be solved with a static trim compromise setting on the drive. Further, a redesign of major balancing items was impractical (and ultimately, un-necessary). The "disturbed flow" was a rouse to keep the ever prying eyes of competitors (both racing and corporate) guessing just what Volvo and W-W designers were actually doing....because at this time, everybody watched what Don did.

Woobs

I am going from what Walt told me . we were flipping thru a few of his drawings and I mentioned that I noticed a difference in Strake lengths on later versions of his designs. He said the Volvo didn't like the water coming off the longer inner strakes. the rework of the 16 into the 18 had full length strakes and when they rounded the bottom they had strakes that ended almost at the transom compared to the earlier 16 versions. this happened on the 16 and the hornet . The 18C and the 22C share the same strake layout the hornetII and III have longer strakes than my Hornet yet when the minx comes out it has short strakes like the 16?

[Greg Guimond]

my timeline ........

1. long straked hull press pic of the bottom prototype
1A. teknikens boat short straked sent to sweden for testing
2. white red Wynne volvo boat first production boat short straked fitted for public sale
3. white and green Brownie eaton boat 2nd production boat
4. white and blue Brownie Nov Jax show volvo boat 3rd production boat
5. Fred Darwick's volvo boat Dec

that is 6 with a month left ( the production time for one 16) in 64 as far as the NY show it has not been confirmed what or how many 16 were there ,it could be possible that existing boats made part of the show tour.

Ok, interesting. 18" of snow so let's play the logic out and understand the way you are laying these 6 out Matty...........

1. long straked hull press pic of the bottom prototype

Q - Walt's Ski Sporter plans are finished and printed on July 1, 1964. The pictures you reference also appear in advertisments on December 1 so they were physically snapped on say on October 1. They rig the boat with a Volvo 110. What month do you think your #1 boat was built? July, August, or September?

M Answer - the long straked volvo aq200 boat hull is built before Walt's June 15th '64 stability rails drawing which shows the short strakes. From your pics Walt"s been working on several 16-esque boats. It"s clear that the bottom shot took some time to setup so i think they use the prototype and set it up while they use another boat for the other pics . the long straked boat is not needed and can be taken for any period of time needed

1A. teknikens boat short straked sent to sweden for testing

Q- Donzi tests your #1 non stop. It runs like crap per your chat with Walt years ago. Jim Wynne and Walt already had great success with the #65 boat in the October '64 Paris 6 hour Race and that boat had short strakes (clear as day in the photo) so Walt flies home after the race and builds one similar back in Miami. Donzi is also worried about the Longshoreman's strike which starts October 1. What month is your #1A hull built and then when does it ship out to Sweden?

M Answer - the teknikens volvo aq200 boat is built late June after the mold for the 16 is reworked by filling in the end of the strakes in the existing mold. It is rigged here in America by donzi and tested here and sent to Sweden by the end of july 64 to show sweden what they found. they run these two boats side by side in testing. We have had issues trying to tell long from short in pics but for testing purposes Donzi marks the hulls the long has a boot stripe, the short doesn't making it easier to tell the two apart while running in person or pics

2. white red Wynne volvo boat first production boat short straked fitted for public sale

The factory would need to use the same short strake mold so the Teknikens Varld (aka Tomron) boat would have to be pulled before the White with red stripe hull that Wynne is driving could begin, correct? They rig it with a loaner AQ200. Alan Brown calls this boat #1 but never mentions the two hulls that came before it. That seems a little odd for a guy like Brownie who remembers almost everything.

3. white and green Brownie eaton boat 2nd production boat

Brownie calls this #2. What month is it built and does it have long or short inner lifting strakes?

M Answer for 2 and 3 - They know the short is the one so they now make the changes permanent in the mold and build the wynne and brownie boats for upcoming sales demo. This process is going on as well for the 28 and both 19s. August 30 or Sept.


4. white and blue Brownie Nov Jax show volvo boat 3rd production boat

November 15, 1964 was the Jacksonville boat show date

M Answer - the jax show boat built sept-oct for nov show

5. Fred Darwick's volvo boat Dec

Q - December 10, 1964 is the Darwick invoice date. Are you saying that Donzi does not build any other Ski Sporter's during that full month even though all the race boats are totally finished by November 8? The only boat they build is Fred Darwick's?

M Answer - Fred Darwick's boat goes into the mold in November and is finished and billed by Dec at this point Donzi is still not a production company . It takes 1 month as per donzi to build a 16 so we have a month left in 1964 after Fred's boat is sold. I am not saying they didn't build any more I am saying they didn't build 4 more. At this point Donzi is a small company, they probably only have 1 or two 16 molds and limited manpower to build boats. In Jan of '65 after the NY show they explode.

[Greg Guimond]

Matty, I took your answers and transferred them to my prior post. I put them in red above just to make the flow of thought a bit easier. I can buy off on #1 and #1a. In fact, there is no reason the #65 boat in Paris could not have been built after and as a result of the short strake experiment (that worked) in Miami.

Where the timeline gets a bit interesting is the time gap between your hull 1a and ........ and hulls 2 & 3.

If you generally decide to use June 30 as the build date for #1a and August 30 is the build for two hulls, numbers 2 and 3 that is two full months. That's a ton of time. If I look at that, and then what Frank Civitano says about using his Dad's boat for the Summer of '64, that time slice is where his Dad's boat got built. That is based on what Frank says BUT that is also 50 years ago. I'm just not seeing Donzi building only (2) 16 huills in those 60 days. Also, building a solid green 16 was already figured out as they would have to build the solid green 19 Hornet. They wanted solid gelcoat experience. Certainly not definitive without sitting down with Frank C, but also not as much of a stretch as Gerry Walin or woobs weighing his 16 hull before he sold it.

If Frank Civitano's boat is proven not to be a '64 and gets tossed off the list, you'd still need to include the 16 hull you forgot that went to Bob Cox and Ed Joyce at Donzi dealer Lauderdale Marine. It came before Darwick.

I'm still thinking through the rest of your comments on #4 and #5 and comparing that to my research. Have to noodle that a bit more before I comment and look back at my notes.

[woobs]

I am going from what Walt told me.... the rework of the 16 into the 18 had full length strakes and when they rounded the bottom they had strakes that ended almost at the transom compared to the earlier 16 versions. this happened on the 16 and the hornet . The 18C and the 22C share the same strake layout the hornetII and III have longer strakes than my Hornet yet when the minx comes out it has short strakes like the 16?

I have never had THAT type of direct access to information however, the 18, 22, Hornet, Hornet II & III as well as the Minx all have ample V8 power to carry the bow so, this particular issue would not exist. Further if it did exist, a power trim may have solved it.

Possibly the Minx had balance issues too? Or maybe it has short strakes to soften the ride.... similar to the post barrel-back 18 2+3 that were also shortened while trading the sharp keel for a rounded one. The (55" from the transom) short strakes on the 16 were lengthened again to 21" when power options, and therefore speed rose past the 50mph area. These longer strakes help the chine walk that is felt in the 55" hull just past the low-mid 50's.

More directly, for the 16 early (1964) production; I tend to lean more towards Greg's analysis and more boats rather than less. But, even after all the analysis from both sides you can only work with what you have. There really is not much concrete evidence of any production numbers so, who is to say there was, or was not other undocumented boats produced (that were not fortunate to become "famous" i.e. Fred Darwick's boat). This is not unreasonable as Don & his crew were not new to the business. It is possible units were delivered both through wholesale or retail. Having been involved in startup entrepreneurial manufacturing operations myself, I can assure you that sales come at startup and you don't turn them away. You find a way to deliver and bank the needed cash.

Ultimately, all this information in this thread can prove a minimum production but has no bearing on a potential maximum production. So, believe what you like... it's not spreadsheet history.

[mattyboy]

I have a question and I don't know if it should be posted here or not.... probably should have it's own thread... but I would like to interject with a question about Formula Boats and the Jr. Don sells Formula in 1964... and immediately starts production of the Donzi 16 ski sport?? Does anyone have dates regarding when the Jr went into production, Don sells Formula and then designs and builds the 16?? there has been lots of speculation regarding the the design of these two boats, including the Jr being based off the Wynn Mill and the Donzi being based off the Wynn Mill II

if you guys think this should be separate I will happily start a new thread to discuss.


Don tried getting out of Formula with the 17 Formula JR he had a feeling about the little as his son puts it in his book. Dick Genth makes him sell the Jr as part of the deal Don really didn't want to. Formula is back logged with 233 production and doesn't get to produce the Jr until the 16 had already been introduced,sometime in 65 the Jr starts production but the 16 at that point is selling like hot cakes.

Don had the design team W-W rework the JR into the 16 so I can see that the first prototype 16 would have a bottom very similar to the Jr.

[revkev6]

Don tried getting out of Formula with the 17 Formula JR he had a feeling about the little as his son puts it in his book. Dick Genth makes him sell the Jr as part of the deal Don really didn't want to. Formula is back logged with 233 production and doesn't get to produce the Jr until the 16 had already been introduced,sometime in 65 the Jr starts production but the 16 at that point is selling like hot cakes.

Don had the design team W-W rework the JR into the 16 so I can see that the first prototype 16 would have a bottom very similar to the Jr.

thanks... I've spoken with a few Jr. owners and based on pictures we are guessing mine is a 65. I have a number plate and paperwork for mine but oddly enough none of it lists the actual year!

it's of interest to me that Donzi designs a boat, builds the mold and finishes several boats before formula pops a hull out of the mold they have.

everything I've read here talking about the strake lengths and the Volvo drives, and a mention of one or two eatons, did Donzi fit any mercruisers?

[mattyboy]

thanks... I've spoken with a few Jr. owners and based on pictures we are guessing mine is a 65. I have a number plate and paperwork for mine but oddly enough none of it lists the actual year!

it's of interest to me that Donzi designs a boat, builds the mold and finishes several boats before formula pops a hull out of the mold they have.

everything I've read here talking about the strake lengths and the Volvo drives, and a mention of one or two eatons, did Donzi fit any mercruisers?

a few in the in the late 60's to early 70's then by the late 70's merc is the primary power/drive combo

I guess the back log was for 233 that were already paid for then when they free up they turn their attention to the Jr.

[woobs]

...there has been lots of speculation regarding the the design of these two boats, including the Jr being based off the Wynn Mill and the Donzi being based off the Wynn Mill II....

Please note that despite the design DNA from W-W and the variations on a concept... the Donzi 16 and the Formula Jr. do not share any dimensions. They are completely different boats.

Personally, I believe both boats can call the original Wynn Mill "Grandma"... while the FJ more closely resembles the WM II and the 16 SS looks like a further derivation of that.

[revkev6]

Please note that despite the design DNA from W-W and the variations on a concept... the Donzi 16 and the Formula Jr. do not share any dimensions. They are completely different boats.

Personally, I believe both boats can call the original Wynn Mill "Grandma"... while the FJ more closely resembles the WM II and the 16 SS looks like a further derivation of that.

Yes the lengths widths and strakes are all a bit different but to say they are completely different is a bit of a stretch. They are very similar boats.. just not copies like people claim.

I am going to have to go measure the inner strake now to see how far forward it is on a jr.

[mattyboy]

I see some of the Jr in the lines of the 14 Baby in the back the front has a round nose and it has a sharp keel and full inner strakes but it was mainly a merc powered boat

[Greg Guimond]

My timeline………………….Hull #1. Long straked hull, press pic of the bottom prototype

Ok, interesting. Here is my question ….. Walt's Ski Sporter plans are finished and printed on July 1, 1964. The pictures you reference also appear in national advertisments on December 1, so they were physically snapped on say on October 1. They rig the boat with a Volvo 110 and a loaner AQ200 drive. What month do you think your #1 boat was built? July, August, or September?

Matty’s Answer - I think the long straked Volvo aq200 boat hull is built before Walt's June 15th, 1964 stability rails drawing which shows the short strakes. From your pics Greg, Walt’s been working on several 16-esque boats. It’s clear that the bottom shot of the hull took some time to setup, so i think they use the prototype and set it up while they use another boat for the other pics . the long straked boat is not needed and can be taken for any period of time needed.
Matty, Don Aronow sells Formula to Dick Genth on May 5th, 1964. To build Donzi Hull #1 in the 30 days after that sale would be pretty amazing. They must have built it off site. If the photo below, which clearly shows the long strakes, is of Hull #1 (and I agree with you that it is) then they had to build the hull, rig it with the loaner AQ200, and take the photo by June 5th, 1964.

With that in mind, are the two photographs below ( I merged both into one) the absolute FIRST photograph of the Donzi 16 Ski Sporter EVER made available to the public in your opinion? Are these two photos what you call the "Original Press Release" photographs?
.

[woobs]

Yes the lengths widths and strakes are all a bit different but to say they are completely different is a bit of a stretch....

Okay, then what is the same besides a 24* deadrise and 7' beam concept hull with lounge seating? They are entirely different and original designs.

Who claims they are copies?

[Morgan's Cloud]

Okay, then what is the same besides a 24* deadrise and 7' beam concept hull with lounge seating? They are entirely different and original designs.

Who claims they are copies?

I agree with this . I think that to a regular consumer they are the same 'style' or 'class' of boat but to the purist they are completely different .

Also agree with Matty on the greater likeness being with the Baby 14 . I always thought that too .

[revkev6]

Okay, then what is the same besides a 24* deadrise and 7' beam concept hull with lounge seating? They are entirely different and original designs.

Who claims they are copies?

Aside from the rear deck area with the barrel back everything else is just a minor adjustment. they were evolutions of the same designs, by the same designers, meant to use the same driveline to accomplish the same performance goal. Really, what is COMPLETELY different about them??

many uninformed like to state that Don just brought the hull from the formula jr with him to Donzi which is ludicrous when you look at them side by side.


I agree with this . I think that to a regular consumer they are the same 'style' or 'class' of boat but to the purist they are completely different .

Also agree with Matty on the greater likeness being with the Baby 14 . I always thought that too .

what do you call a "purist"? Neither boat was an offshore racer, their predecessors and big brothers were. Donzi liked to advertise that the 16's "test boat" broke records, but the same could be said for the Formula being designed and tested from the same "test boat" the Wynn Mill II.

[mattyboy]

Matty, Don Aronow sells Formula to Dick Genth on May 5th, 1964. To build Donzi Hull #1 in the 30 days after that sale would be pretty amazing. They must have built it off site. If the photo below, which clearly shows the long strakes, is of Hull #1 (and I agree with you that it is) then they had to build the hull, rig it with the loaner AQ200, and take the photo by June 5th, 1964.

With that in mind, are the two photographs below ( I merged both into one) the absolute FIRST photograph of the Donzi 16 Ski Sporter EVER made available to the public in your opinion? Are these two photos what you call the "Original Press Release" photographs?
.

Greg

I don't understand your logic why would the photo need to be taken by June 5 ??? it could have been taken anytime after the hull was finished and sometime in the fall say Nov then some of these pics make it to print in DEC but Brownie states he had no literature with him in Jax. without confirmation of the strakes in the other pics we don't know if they used one boat or two in the shoot. It would make sense that the photographer was taking pics of one while another was being setup for the special top and bottom shots. I am not Ansel Adams but I showed it to a shutterbug I know and he said those shots may have been exact o knifed out and setup on matting for publication. If that is the case and the pic was taken in the factory on the lift those items and shadows on the bottom you mentioned before are reflections of the surroundings in the hull exactly like those seen on the same shot of genesis.

also do you think Don just decided to sell I am sure that was in the works for sometime before the actual sale and as soon as he knew that the Jr was not going to remain his he started the team on the 16 . Didn't he sell the boats and Company not the factory or had another shop on 188th?? I will have to reread KOTB Formula chapter again

[revkev6]

Greg

I don't understand your logic why would the photo need to be taken by June 5 ??? it could have been taken anytime after the hull was finished and sometime in the fall say Nov then some of these pics make it to print in DEC but Brownie states he had no literature with him in Jax. without confirmation of the strakes in the other pics we don't know if they used one boat or two in the shoot. It would make sense that the photographer was taking pics of one while another was being setup for the special top and bottom shots. I am not Ansel Adams but I showed it to a shutterbug I know and he said those shots may have been exact o knifed out and setup on matting for publication. If that is the case and the pic was taken in the factory on the lift those items and shadows on the bottom you mentioned before are reflections of the surroundings in the hull exactly like those seen on the same shot of genesis.

also do you think Don just decided to sell I am sure that was in the works for sometime before the actual sale and as soon as he knew that the Jr was not going to remain his he started the team on the 16 . Didn't he sell the boats and Company not the factory or had another shop on 188th?? I will have to reread KOTB Formula chapter again

I'd have to agree with you on the last part... I wonder how long the negotiations were??

[woobs]

Aside from the rear deck area with the barrel back everything else is just a minor adjustment.... Really, what is COMPLETELY different about them??

Just about everything physical is different. As you have pointed out, they have a different length, width and tumblehome. They also have different strakes, chines, freeboard, gunwales, sheer and general shape of the bow. One has a rounded keel the other does not. The cockpit area is further towards aft on one. They share no dimensions or common shape whatsoever. So, maybe it's just me but, I'd say they are very different boats.

Now, if "minor adjustment" means a 16'-17' runabout with a deep V, sterndrive and lounge seating then the production boat pictured below also qualifies as a copy. This boat is 16'5" LOA, an 85" beam it has a 23* deadrise, a stern drive and lounge seating. The only thing it does not have in common with your design definition is that it was not designed by W-W but, rather Tom Faul (in 1967)... however, it was designed for the same purpose as the FJ and the 16SS. So, is this the same boat? Hardly. (and I'm no purist)

[revkev6]

Just about everything physical is different. As you have pointed out, they have a different length, width and tumblehome. They also have different strakes, chines, freeboard, gunwales, sheer and general shape of the bow. One has a rounded keel the other does not. The cockpit area is further towards aft on one. They share no dimensions or common shape whatsoever. So, maybe it's just me but, I'd say they are very different boats.

Now, if "minor adjustment" means a 16'-17' runabout with a deep V, sterndrive and lounge seating then the production boat pictured below also qualifies as a copy. This boat is 16'5" LOA, an 85" beam it has a 23* deadrise, a stern drive and lounge seating. The only thing it does not have in common with your design definition is that it was not designed by W-W but, rather Tom Faul (in 1967)... however, it was designed for the same purpose as the FJ and the 16SS. So, is this the same boat? Hardly. (and I'm no purist)

they both have rounded keels and they both have left hand controls. the Wynn Mill I has a sharp keel and the Wynn Mill II has a rounded.

IMO they are cousins. the way you are talking about the differences between the boats you would have to also claim that none of the Wynn Mill race boats are comparable to the Donzi 16... which even Donzi does.

[Greg Guimond]

Greg, I don't understand your logic why would the photo need to be taken by June 5 ??? it could have been taken anytime after the hull was finished and sometime in the fall say Nov then some of these pics make it to print in DEC but Brownie states he had no literature with him in Jax.........also do you think Don just decided to sell I am sure that was in the works for sometime before the actual sale and as soon as he knew that the Jr was not going to remain his, he started the team on the 16 . Didn't he sell the boats and Company not the factory or had another shop on 188th?? I will have to reread KOTB Formula chapter again


I'd have to agree with you on the last part... I wonder how long the negotiations were??

Ahh points well taken.

I agree with you both and yield on June 5. One observation and a question. The national advertisement was December 1, 1964 in Motor Boating Magazine. We've all agreed that it takes time to format a magazine back then, a minimum of 30 days for a national magazine and probably 60. That means the photos below would have to been snapped no later than October 15, '64 to be in time for the mag OR BEFORE that as you both say.

Matty, my specific question - we know that the Four Page Color Brochure came later, but are the two pages below, what I am calling the "Original Press Release", the first known public material for the Ski Sporter?

[woobs]

...Wynn Mill I has a sharp keel and the Wynn Mill II has a rounded.
IMO they are cousins. the way you are talking about the differences between the boats you would have to also claim that none of the Wynn Mill race boats are comparable to the Donzi 16... which even Donzi does.

We are talking the Formula Jr. and the Donzi 16 Ski Sporter, not the Wynn Mill and Wyn Mill II. As I have always maintained, they are both derived from the Wynn Mill II which was derived from the Wyn Mill. Never the less, they are all different boats, built upon a concept with modification, derivation and evolution of that concept to be different boats.

You have intimated the misconception that the Donzi 16 SS came from the Formula Jr. It did not. At one time I believed that the 16 SS buck used to make the moulds may have originally been the buck from the Jr. But, due to the many, many differences it is plain to see that it is not. It would have been more work (and taken more time) to do this than starting from scratch.

My entire point is these are different boats. From the same designers... yes, from the same concept... yes, for the same purpose and similar style ... yes! But, they are different boats completely. With no lines or measurements the same.... how could they be otherwise. The 16 SS has more in common with the Donzi c18 2+2 and the c22 than the FJ.

Fwiw, the Donzi 16 SS is only comparable to the WM II as this is where the concept was proven and refined. The Donzi comparison you refer to is marketing.

I don't know how I could be more clear.

[revkev6]

We are talking the Formula Jr. and the Donzi 16 Ski Sporter, not the Wynn Mill and Wyn Mill II. As I have always maintained, they are both derived from the Wynn Mill II which was derived from the Wyn Mill. Never the less, they are all different boats, built upon a concept with modification, derivation and evolution of that concept to be different boats.

yes, both the Formula Jr and the Donzi have rounded keels You stated one was sharp and one was rounded. I only mention the Wynn Mill vs Wynn Mill II because they differ from each other in sharp Vs rounded keel. I thought you had possibly misspoke.


You have intimated the misconception that the Donzi 16 SS came from the Formula Jr. It did not. At one time I believed that the 16 SS buck used to make the moulds may have originally been the buck from the Jr. But, due to the many, many differences it is plain to see that it is not. It would have been more work (and taken more time) to do this than starting from scratch.

I intimated that OTHERS have the misconception. I am under no such delusion. the Donzi 16 is a different design. The verbiage we use to describe those differences is, I believe our only point of contention.


My entire point is these are different boats. From the same designers... yes, from the same concept... yes, for the same purpose and similar style ... yes! But, they are different boats completely. With no lines or measurements the same.... how could they be otherwise. The 16 SS has more in common with the Donzi c18 2+2 and the c22 than the FJ.

I've never argued that they were different. I was stating a personal opinion that because they are so close in design and execution that I wouldn't categorize them as "completely different" Like I said, My opinion.


Fwiw, the Donzi 16 SS is only comparable to the WM II as this is where the concept was proven and refined. The Donzi comparison you refer to is marketing.

I don't know how I could be more clear.

can't disagree. just something that i had to point out, that donzi themselves said that the "test model" broke records when it was in fact the wooden race boats.

[woobs]

[QUOTE=Greg Guimond;661858]woobs, do you happen to know what year the two photos above of the #65 boat were taken? Even better would be month and year? Thx.[QUOTE]


Greg,
It took a while but, I'm told the #65 boat, Thunderbox, was built in 1964 by CAMPER NICHOLSON in Portsmouth. Further, they tested her in Chichester Harbour and Cowes Roads judging from old films. The pictures are from the same year...sorry, no month.

Best guess is she is ashortened (16') version of THUNDERFLASH and also designed by Walt Walters ....this area is very confusing as SOPWITH AND WILKINS werebuilding boats hand over fist trying to win races (Souters too)....all the small ones werebuilt to race at Paris 6 hrs.

[Greg Guimond]

Greg, it took a while but, I'm told the #65 boat, Thunderbox, was built in 1964 by CAMPER NICHOLSON in Portsmouth. Further, they tested her in Chichester Harbour and Cowes Roads judging from old films. The pictures are from the same year...sorry, no month. Best guess is she is a shortened (16') version of THUNDERFLASH and also designed by Walt Walters. This area is very confusing as SOPWITH AND WILKINS were building boats hand over fist trying to win races (Souters too)....all the small ones were built to race at Paris 6 hrs.

Thanks woobs for checking. Adding to the confusion was the fact that the reporters writing the stories did not always attach the correct name to the hull being described. One thing is for sure though. In the 1964 Paris 6 Hour Race, the 17' boat that Walt designed was running a Coventry power plant. The 16' boat #65 however was running what would be known as the "Hot Volvo" 110 powerplant. The success in both Cowes and Paris of this "Hot Volvo" would become the reason that Don Aronow worked with Jim Wynne to buy (6) of these and have them shipped to Miami in September/October.
Don would go on to install them in Ski Sporters built in 1964. The horsepower was about 140 or so but what was really interesting is the 100 drive that was used. It was NOT a standard issue AQ100.

[Greg Guimond]

.
So again, because it's Winter, we go back to the build timeline. Here is how I now see the 1964 Ski Sporter builds ……………..Unlike Matty, I'm still seeing 10-12 boats built.



Hull 1. Original B+W Press Release boat – photo shows the “long” inner strakes & Volvo drive. Mike Aronow writes of taking a test run with his Dad in KOTBR. Date of photo unknown, but must be snapped after May 5, and before October 5, 1964

Hull 2. Teknikens Varld Magazine boat - White w/ Red deck stripe only. New "shortened" inner strakes & single thru hull exhaust in photos. No Grab Rail. Shipped to Volvo Sweden for tests which was hastened by the 10/1/64 Longshoreman strike

Hull 3. Frank Civitano Sr boat - Solid green with Red deck stripe. Frank's father was personal friends with Don A from construction. Boat was used for Summer of '64 in Southern NJ. Motor, drive and Deck Grab Rail Unknown. Pictures lost in Sandy

Hull 4. Jim Wynne driving boat - White with Red deck & red water line stripe. Inner strakes not 100% clear but look to be "short" in photos. Drive identified as Volvo AQ200 Euro loaner. No Deck Grab Rail. Photos thought to be taken Sept/Oct '64

Hull 5. Allan Brown driving boat - White with Green deck stripe only - Ford Eaton 260 cu inch V8 165hp motor & Eaton flip up drive. No Deck Grab Rail. Again, both Brownie and Wynne color photos thought to be taken September/October of 1964

Hull 6. Jacksonville Boat Show boat - White w/ Blue deck stripe thru dash & blue waterline stripe. Brownie at show on 11/13/64. In Four Page Color Brochure with El Camino, & on Travel-Lift. 1st AQ200 Production drive in USA - No Deck Grab Rail

Hull 7. Bob Cox and Ed Joyce boat - No surviving photos at Lauderdale Marina found so far. Initially they raced a Formula 233 then became the 1st Donzi dealer in Florida. Hot Volvo Performance 110 & 100 drive package. Deck Grab Rail unknown

Hull 8. Fred Darwick race boat - Invoice #67 shows $3,095 and was dated 12/10/64. Photo of his hull marked with #11 shows it as White w/ Green deck stripe & green waterline stripe. Hot Volvo 110 & special race AQ100 drive. No Deck Grab Rail

Hull 9. David Ray boat - White with Blue stripe. Initially powered with the same Hot Volvo110/100 package. Sold to David D. Ray directly by Don A with Fred's help. Boat still exists in Merritt Island, Florida today but Matty hasn't gotten any photos

Hull 10. New York Boat Show 16 – No photos so what color was it? Show was Jan 13, 1965. Could it have then continued North to the Shepherd boys or was an entirely different (and additional) '64 hull shipped up to Canada? woobs asking TIBS

Hull 11. Second New York Boat Show 16 - Did it exist, get sold and sent to Alabama? Only Brownie would remember if there were two Ski Sporter’s in the booth next to the $8,000 green 19' Hornet. Who else manned that booth with Allan Brown?

Hull 12. Canada Shepherd Ltd boat - woobs has made contact with Jim Hahn Jr., whose Dad managed Shepherd Boats at this time. A meeting to review old Donzi partnership papers that still exist for added clues will take place sometime in 2016

[woobs]

That is a job well done Greg. I think that is as close as anyone could get to accounting for the early production without actually being there to document.

You have used all of the available information and explored the available possibilities to authenticate this list with a very high degree of probability. Without more information, it becomes a very difficult task of nailing the exact number with 100% certainty. However, your analysis if not exact... cannot be far off the mark.

Unfortunately, there is no way to certify the production numbers and there is always some doubt or unaccounted for items. We will never know for sure but, I think you have it nailed.

Do we move to 1965 now ? :)

[Greg Guimond]

Actually 1965 is not really on my radar, that's on Matty. Next Winter's banter thread for me will be entirely devoted to Donzi Outboards, starting with the two 19 race boats I uncovered & moving through 18 & 22. Oh boy!

I'll be calling it the blue smoke specials.

[jl1962]

Too soon to call it quits, it's still January!
At least hold out till Spring Training........

Nice job all around.
I've enjoyed this thread and learned a lot.
Thanks.

[Greg Guimond]

Back to the timeline, I always felt racing was the main focus and the real production happened in early '65. I am thinking they had one production Hornet made by the end of '64 for the NY show and probably 6-7 16's

Matty, I don't follow unless you've been holding back some info lol. What is your logic for only (7) Ski Sporter's built in 1964?

[mattyboy]

Matty, I don't follow unless you've been holding back some info lol. What is your logic for only (7) Ski Sporter's built in 1964?
Greg
Sounds like you don't have conviction in your research. Why do you need to understand my logic???

[Greg Guimond]

Greg, Sounds like you don't have conviction in your research. Why do you need to understand my logic???

Well, I certainly know that you have been doing this type of research for almost 15 years where I only have spent one year on the car motor 16's so I was hoping for some feedback from you now that I have adjusted
the '64 builds into a nice neat 12 above for review including changing a few things.

You may not have read the revised post though.

[mattyboy]

Well, I certainly know that you have been doing this type of research for almost 15 years where I only have spent one year on the car motor 16's so I was hoping for some feedback from you now that I have adjusted
the '64 builds into a nice neat 12 above for review including changing a few things.

You may not have read the revised post though.

yeah I have read it, still a ton of unconfirmed info

[mattyboy]

Well, I certainly know that you have been doing this type of research for almost 15 years where I only have spent one year on the car motor 16's so I was hoping for some feedback from you now that I have adjusted
the '64 builds into a nice neat 12 above for review including changing a few things.

You may not have read the revised post though.


ok let's build some feedback on what you have as hull 3 and all grumble with a lucan red stripe.

timeline at the time of this hull : June /July 1964

Donzi has built 2 16s one long straked one short straked now they take a custom order for this boat

let's play true or false

1. this would require that all 6 structural fiberglass components of a 16 be shot in GG gel T/F
2. at this time on the calendar Donzi has made production 'GREEN HORNETS' T/F
3. The all green 16 would need custom monotone interior not the interior being used on 64 and 65 16s that are tested and photographed? T/F
4. Brownie recalls this all green 16 T/F
5. Brownie recalls the solid non white colored hulls coming in 1965 T/F
6. This build would require more than the stated 1 month timeframe order to delivery? T/F
7. with the factory stated color options available on the 16 for purchase , components can be mass produced and stock piled?? T/F


as I have said before I have no doubt as a jersey guy Frank C's Dad knew Don or that he bought multiple boats from him I just think he is off a year. I think he met his friend Don at the Jan 65 NY show and ordered the boat, and got it sometime in spring of 65 and used in summer of 65.

[Greg Guimond]

.
Ok, some good points but to say a "ton" is unconfirmed is a stretch.

How about this, why don't you put Hull #3 to the side for the moment as I've tracked down Frank C and we still have February to burn as Jay said earlier! Instead, to help us narrow things down a bit, pls comment on the other 11 boats in the timeline, and we can circle back to 3. As a co-worker in London once aptly said "Don't loose sight of the good in search of the perfect". Donzi forensics is a team sport so feel free to reference by number to make it easy.

Thoughts on the other 11 builds Matty? I've re-posted the list below ..................

[Greg Guimond]

.
1964 only Ski Sporter 16 boats, in assumed order of production ...............


Hull 1. Original B+W Press Release boat – photo shows the “long” inner strakes & Volvo drive. Mike Aronow writes of taking a test run with his Dad in KOTBR. Date of photo unknown, but must be snapped after May 5, and before October 5, 1964

Hull 2. Teknikens Varld Magazine boat - White w/ Red deck stripe only. New "shortened" inner strakes & single thru hull exhaust in photos. No Grab Rail. Shipped to Volvo Sweden for tests which was hastened by the 10/1/64 Longshoreman strike

Hull 3. Frank Civitano Sr boat - Solid green with Red deck stripe. Frank's father was personal friends with Don A from construction. Boat was used for Summer of '64 in Southern NJ. Motor, drive and Deck Grab Rail Unknown. Pictures lost in Sandy

Hull 4. Jim Wynne driving boat - White with Red deck & red water line stripe. Inner strakes not 100% clear but look to be "short" in photos. Drive identified as Volvo AQ200 Euro loaner. No Deck Grab Rail. Photos thought to be taken Sept/Oct '64

Hull 5. Allan Brown driving boat - White with Green deck stripe only - Ford Eaton 260 cu inch V8 165hp motor & Eaton flip up drive. No Deck Grab Rail. Again, both Brownie and Wynne color photos thought to be taken September/October of 1964

Hull 6. Jacksonville Boat Show boat - White w/ Blue deck stripe thru dash & blue waterline stripe. Brownie at show on 11/13/64. In Four Page Color Brochure with El Camino, & on Travel-Lift. 1st AQ200 Production drive in USA - No Deck Grab Rail

Hull 7. Bob Cox and Ed Joyce boat - No surviving photos at Lauderdale Marina found so far. Initially they raced a Formula 233 then became the 1st Donzi dealer in Florida. Hot Volvo Performance 110 & 100 drive package. Deck Grab Rail unknown

Hull 8. Fred Darwick race boat - Invoice #67 shows $3,095 and was dated 12/10/64. Photo of his hull marked with #11 shows it as White w/ Green deck stripe & green waterline stripe. Hot Volvo 110 & special race AQ100 drive. No Deck Grab Rail

Hull 9. David Ray boat - White with Blue stripe. Initially powered with the same Hot Volvo110/100 package. Sold to David D. Ray directly by Don A with Fred's help. Boat still exists in Merritt Island, Florida today but Matty hasn't gotten any photos

Hull 10. New York Boat Show 16 – No photos so what color was it? Show was Jan 13, 1965. Could it have then continued North to the Shepherd boys or was an entirely different (and additional) '64 hull shipped up to Canada? woobs asking TIBS

Hull 11. Second New York Boat Show 16 - Did it exist, get sold and sent to Alabama? Only Brownie would remember if there were two Ski Sporter’s in the booth next to the $8,000 green 19' Hornet. Who else manned that booth with Allan Brown?

Hull 12. Canada Shepherd Ltd boat - woobs has made contact with Jim Hahn Jr., whose Dad managed Shepherd Boats at this time. A meeting to review old Donzi partnership papers that still exist for added clues will take place sometime in 2016

[BUIZILLA]

I got a call today that a certain 1964 16 will be on the market in the next few days...

maybe even here

[Greg Guimond]

Yep .............. correct a mundo.

[mattyboy]

That's great news the first real present day info on a 1964 16 looking fwd to it

[Morgan's Cloud]

4. Brownie recalls this all green 16 T/F
5. Brownie recalls the solid non white colored hulls coming in 1965 T/F


as I have said before I have no doubt as a jersey guy Frank C's Dad knew Don or that he bought multiple boats from him I just think he is off a year. I think he met his friend Don at the Jan 65 NY show and ordered the boat, and got it sometime in spring of 65 and used in summer of 65.


This is another point that has been puzzling me for a long time and I think you may be absolutely right Matty with Frank C's dad maybe having the year confused.

I was always curios as to why all of the suspected 'first 16's ' were all white but Mr C was able to get an all green one with red striping (and it's not the same green as what was used on the Hornets I believe) way before the color option became available and was able to use it in the summer of '64
If that was the case using the established timeline of the others that ended up in Sweden and used for photo shoots for ads that didn't appear until the end of summer '64 this solid green 16 with the red striping would have had to be numero uno .

I hope that reasoning made a little sense .. :biggrin.:

[Greg Guimond]

This is another point that has been puzzling me for a long time and I think you may be absolutely right Matty with Frank C's dad maybe having the year confused.

I was always curios as to why all of the suspected 'first 16's ' were all white but Mr C was able to get an all green one with red striping (and it's not the same green as what was used on the Hornets I believe) way before the color option became available and was able to use it in the summer of '64
If that was the case using the established timeline of the others that ended up in Sweden and used for photo shoots for ads that didn't appear until the end of summer '64 this solid green 16 with the red striping would have had to be numero uno .

I hope that reasoning made a little sense .. :biggrin.:

There is no disputing that Frank's Dad's boat is the weakest of the (12) boats in the timeline BUT to construct the builds I decided with the first post in this thread on September 3 to use what I've gathered including Frank's recollection in prior posts. It's really the only way to sort through it. That's why I'm asking Matty for his feedback on the order of the other eleven boats.

Knocky House 'em down one by one ........... :bighug:

[Greg Guimond]

The one thing that intrigues me about Frank's claim though is that there WAS an all green Hornet in the New York Show display booth on January 13, 1965 that had to be pulled from the mold in 1964. That tells us that the factory at least had the knowledge to produce an all green boat. Below are Frank C's posts on his Dad's 16


My Dad new Don well back in the old days when he used to be a builder. I wish I still had our 1st Green and Red striped Donzi 16 that Don talked my father into buying in 1964. She wasn't the fastest, but it was only the 4th or 5th made. He was a fun guy, that I remember. I was only 14 and the last time I seen him was when I was 17.


Also my family has owned a Donzi since 1964 and my first boat was a 1972 Donzi 16. I was part of Donzi's family and I still am no matter what the future holds. I also was a big part of the boat shows, not only selling for Typhoon but helping dealers that didn't know the product, so they can get a boat sold for Donzi.

[Morgan's Cloud]

The one thing that intrigues me about Frank's claim though is that there WAS an all green Hornet in the New York Show display booth on January 13, 1965 that had to be pulled from the mold in 1964. That tells us that the factory at least had the knowledge to produce an all green boat.








The question I have is exactly how much of a mystery was it to produce a boat that was anything other than white ? Was there any colored Formula Jrs and 223s made by Don before he sold Formula and if so might he have taken any of those workers or expertise/knowledge with him to Donzi ?
And as I mentioned above , I think the green used on the Hornets wasn't the same green as on Mr C's boat . That Hornet green wasn't particularly attractive IMO .

[Greg Guimond]

The question I have is exactly how much of a mystery was it to produce a boat that was anything other than white ? Was there any colored Formula Jrs and 223s made by Don before he sold Formula and if so might he have taken any of those workers or expertise/knowledge with him to Donzi ? And as I mentioned above , I think the green used on the Hornets wasn't the same green as on Mr C's boat . That Hornet green wasn't particularly attractive IMO .

Answer to your first question is I don't know how much of a challenge it was as I was not even born. I do know that the West Coast race crowd routinely laid up all color hulls
Answer to your second question is I'm pretty sure there were no F 233's that were solid colors
Answer to your third question is yes, Don took almost all of his workers with him from Formula
Comment on your last question is I have never seen a color picture of the 1964 Green Hornet

[Morgan's Cloud]

Those questions weren't directed specifically at you , not to worry .
I have seen solid colored 233s and Jr's as well , not to mention Jr's that were white with colored stripes but were they made under Don or afterwards ?

There are threads here that have the brochure pics of the Hornets , I'm surprised you haven't seen them already. It was a horrible mustard type of green. I believe that they all came that color as standard.

[mattyboy]

Since we are back on the green hornet

There is no exact date on when the first hornet was popped for the show it could have been the first week in January

The bench seat production model was not around in the summer of 64 from records there is no mention of the bench seat until Brownie places in a 19 type bench seat but Walts drawings for the St T are before that leading me to think the bench seat was an after thought of the St T

Also what proof do we have that they had grumble green gel around before that hornet?? Everything I have seen seems to indicate they were building the 16 s like they build the cigs now they all leave the mold white and get painted
It looks to me that the stripes were painted on the early boats not gel or if by some miracle they could shoot gel better on day one than they could with years and 100s of boats under their belt
I also think they had to stock up on the smaller components for production
Or do you think things like the hatch, locker, locker hatch , and ski locker were put into their molds when the boat went into the mold?
So they would need to shoot those items in green then have a monochrome interior made

BTW
Genesis was an all blue hull with a white deck but paint or gel who knows
Which means they hadnt made a deck in another color other than white

The Jr is after 64

[mattyboy]

Remember in all of this Don never wanted to be a mass production company .he wanted to design, research and develop boats thru his racing operations and WIN then sell the results.

If you look at the first 16s that is a perfect model to sell to someone who wants to be a mass producer. pop all boats in wonder white gel then paint a stripe in the color of the customers choosing, red green or blue then go to the stock room and grab a matching color interior white and red, green or blue. .

[mattyboy]

more things to mull over is production time stated by Donzi in early 65, again it is highly unlikely that on day one they can build boats faster than they can with with more experience and more manpower from 65 on. They hit their stride in late 65 early 66 and by 67 can turn out a 16 in 5 days

16 4 weeks or 1 month that means order a boat on june 1 get it july one( so Fred's Dec boat went into the mold in Nov) so in june of 64 how many donzi dealers were there That you could walk in and buy a 16 ?

19 12 weeks or 3 months that means order a boat sept 1 get it dec 1 anyone who has seen the "high impact fiberglass" with a fully cored boat the size of the 19 knows this can't be a wam bam thank you mame build. It's going to take a lot of time to build one.


other things if there were a finished 19 production benchseat by NOV why didn't Knocky or another employee drag it up with Brownie to the Jax show. Also why wasn't the race boat benchseat a production style benchseat?

so let's reverse engineer the 19 at the show in NYC in jan of 65

Jan 12 1965 it rolls thru the lincoln tunnel on it's way to the show
Jan 9 1965 it gets on the fla tpk heading to the big apple
Jan 8 th quick test run with pics for Don Dave and Brownie then on the trailer
Jan 2 popped from mold and headed to riggin
Oct 2 1964 green gel sprayed in mold with glass right behind it with balsa on deck
Sept 24 1964 the mold for the new 19 deck completed
Sept 1 1964 the design plans for the new 19 deck ( designer unknown) is ready to put on Walt's 19 hull
Aug 20 1964 Brownie's 19 race boat is built with a one off benchseat deck and tested result we need a gentelmen's racer in our lineup
July 20 molds for the St T are completed
June 20 1964 Walt finishes the drawings for the Donzi 19 fish boat CC ( St Tropez)

[Greg Guimond]

Back to the timeline, I always felt racing was the main focus. I am thinking they had one production Hornet made by the end of '64 for the NY show and probably 6-7 16's


Matty, I don't follow unless you've been holding back some info lol. What is your logic for only (7) Ski Sporter's built in 1964?


Greg, sounds like you don't have conviction in your research. Why do you need to understand my logic?

.
A cup of coffee and a fire going so let me take the Historian's perspective into consideration on 7 hulls. Agree, racing was the focus but so far here's the 1964 Ski Sporter count ;


Hull 1. Original B+W Press Release boat – photo shows the “long” inner strakes & Volvo drive. Mike Aronow writes of taking a test run with his Dad in KOTBR. Date of photo unknown, but must be snapped after May 5, and before October 5, 1964
Confirmed

Hull 2. Teknikens Varld Magazine boat - White w/ Red deck stripe only. New "shortened" inner strakes & single thru hull exhaust in photos. No Grab Rail. Shipped to Volvo Sweden for tests which was hastened by the 10/1/64 Longshoreman strike
Confirmed

Hull 3. Frank Civitano Sr boat - Solid green with Red deck stripe. Frank's father was personal friends with Don A from construction. Boat was used for Summer of '64 in Southern NJ. Motor, drive and Deck Grab Rail Unknown. Pictures lost in Sandy
Still Somewhat Suspect

Hull 4. Jim Wynne driving boat - White with Red deck & red water line stripe. Inner strakes not 100% clear but look to be "short" in photos. Drive identified as Volvo AQ200 Euro loaner. No Deck Grab Rail. Photos thought to be taken Sept/Oct '64
Confirmed

Hull 5. Allan Brown driving boat - White with Green deck stripe only - Ford Eaton 260 cu inch V8 165hp motor & Eaton flip up drive. No Deck Grab Rail. Again, both Brownie and Wynne color photos thought to be taken September/October of 1964
Confirmed

Hull 6. Jacksonville Boat Show boat - White w/ Blue deck stripe thru dash & blue waterline stripe. Brownie at show on 11/13/64. In Four Page Color Brochure with El Camino, & on Travel-Lift. 1st AQ200 Production drive in USA - No Deck Grab Rail
Confirmed

Hull 7. Bob Cox and Ed Joyce boat - No surviving photos at Lauderdale Marina found so far. Initially they raced a Formula 233 then became the 1st Donzi dealer in Florida. Hot Volvo Performance 110 & 100 drive package. Deck Grab Rail unknown
Confirmed

Hull 8. Fred Darwick race boat - Invoice #67 shows $3,095 and was dated 12/10/64. Photo of his hull marked with #11 shows it as White w/ Green deck stripe & green waterline stripe. Hot Volvo 110 & special race AQ100 drive. No Deck Grab Rail
Confirmed

Hull 9. David Ray boat - White with Blue stripe. Initially powered with the same Hot Volvo110/100 package. Sold to David D. Ray directly by Don A with Fred's help. Boat still exists in Merritt Island, Florida today but Matty hasn't gotten any photos
Confirmed

Hull 10. New York Boat Show 16 – No photos so what color was it? Show was Jan 13, 1965. Could it have then continued North to the Shepherd boys or was an entirely different (and additional) '64 hull shipped up to Canada? woobs asking TIBS
Confirmed but was birth 12/31 or 1/2 ?

Hull 11. Second New York Boat Show 16 - Did it exist, get sold and sent to Alabama? Only Brownie would remember if there were two Ski Sporter’s in the booth next to the $8,000 green 19' Hornet. Who else manned that booth with Allan Brown?
Definitely Suspect

Hull 12. Canada Shepherd Ltd boat - woobs has made contact with Jim Hahn Jr., whose Dad managed Shepherd Boats at this time. A meeting to review old Donzi partnership papers that still exist for added clues will take place sometime in 2016
Dates TBD via papers

[Greg Guimond]

.
Hmmmm :screwy:

[mattyboy]

.
A cup of coffee and a fire going so let me take the Historian's perspective into consideration on 7 hulls. Agree, racing was the focus but so far here's the 1964 Ski Sporter count ;


Hull 1. Original B+W Press Release boat – photo shows the “long” inner strakes & Volvo drive. Mike Aronow writes of taking a test run with his Dad in KOTBR. Date of photo unknown, but must be snapped after May 5, and before October 5, 1964
Confirmed

Hull 2. Teknikens Varld Magazine boat - White w/ Red deck stripe only. New "shortened" inner strakes & single thru hull exhaust in photos. No Grab Rail. Shipped to Volvo Sweden for tests which was hastened by the 10/1/64 Longshoreman strike
Confirmed

Hull 3. Frank Civitano Sr boat - Solid green with Red deck stripe. Frank's father was personal friends with Don A from construction. Boat was used for Summer of '64 in Southern NJ. Motor, drive and Deck Grab Rail Unknown. Pictures lost in Sandy
Still Somewhat Suspect

Hull 4. Jim Wynne driving boat - White with Red deck & red water line stripe. Inner strakes not 100% clear but look to be "short" in photos. Drive identified as Volvo AQ200 Euro loaner. No Deck Grab Rail. Photos thought to be taken Sept/Oct '64
Confirmed

Hull 5. Allan Brown driving boat - White with Green deck stripe only - Ford Eaton 260 cu inch V8 165hp motor & Eaton flip up drive. No Deck Grab Rail. Again, both Brownie and Wynne color photos thought to be taken September/October of 1964
Confirmed

Hull 6. Jacksonville Boat Show boat - White w/ Blue deck stripe thru dash & blue waterline stripe. Brownie at show on 11/13/64. In Four Page Color Brochure with El Camino, & on Travel-Lift. 1st AQ200 Production drive in USA - No Deck Grab Rail
Confirmed

Hull 7. Bob Cox and Ed Joyce boat - No surviving photos at Lauderdale Marina found so far. Initially they raced a Formula 233 then became the 1st Donzi dealer in Florida. Hot Volvo Performance 110 & 100 drive package. Deck Grab Rail unknown
Confirmed

Hull 8. Fred Darwick race boat - Invoice #67 shows $3,095 and was dated 12/10/64. Photo of his hull marked with #11 shows it as White w/ Green deck stripe & green waterline stripe. Hot Volvo 110 & special race AQ100 drive. No Deck Grab Rail
Confirmed

Hull 9. David Ray boat - White with Blue stripe. Initially powered with the same Hot Volvo110/100 package. Sold to David D. Ray directly by Don A with Fred's help. Boat still exists in Merritt Island, Florida today but Matty hasn't gotten any photos
Confirmed

Hull 10. New York Boat Show 16 – No photos so what color was it? Show was Jan 13, 1965. Could it have then continued North to the Shepherd boys or was an entirely different (and additional) '64 hull shipped up to Canada? woobs asking TIBS
Confirmed but was birth 12/31 or 1/2 ?

Hull 11. Second New York Boat Show 16 - Did it exist, get sold and sent to Alabama? Only Brownie would remember if there were two Ski Sporter’s in the booth next to the $8,000 green 19' Hornet. Who else manned that booth with Allan Brown?
Definitely Suspect

Hull 12. Canada Shepherd Ltd boat - woobs has made contact with Jim Hahn Jr., whose Dad managed Shepherd Boats at this time. A meeting to review old Donzi partnership papers that still exist for added clues will take place sometime in 2016
Dates TBD via papers


using your hull numbers

hull 1 agreed but I don't think this the boat Mike gets a ride in I think it is Fred's boat Mike says the boat has a big DONZI on the side fred's does have the large Donzi on the side Mike said his father made sure evryone on the water that day got a good look at the new Donzi


hull 2 ok

hull 3 disagree

hull 4 ok

hull 5 ok

hull 6 ok

hull 7 to 12 I have no knowledge of these boats no pics written articles or posts on these boats. The david ray boat bought from Don directly with Fred's help was this after his boat if so how much longer ? The boat show boats is it confirmed that new boats were popped for this or were the existing demo boats used for the show?

[Greg Guimond]

using your hull numbers

hull 1 agreed but I don't think this the boat Mike gets a ride in I think it is Fred's boat Mike says the boat has a big DONZI on the side fred's does have the large Donzi on the side Mike said his father made sure evryone on the water that day got a good look at the new Donzi

hull 2 ok

hull 3 disagree

hull 4 ok

hull 5 ok

hull 6 ok

hull 7 to 12 I have no knowledge of these boats no pics written articles or posts on these boats. The david ray boat bought from Don directly with Fred's help was this after his boat if so how much longer ? The boat show boats is it confirmed that new boats were popped for this or were the existing demo boats used for the show?

:confused: ........Huh?

Let us keep #3 off to the side (for the moment) and focus on #7 and #8. Matty,kindly read back through the thread and you will see that Fred Darwick is the source on both Hull #7 and Hull #8. Both boats used the "Hot Volvo" package and that is directly from Fred. In addition, there is Fred's boat running in the January 2, 1965 Orange Bowl Nine Hour.

I think you will need to "ok" #7 and #8 in the timeline before we can move on to the remainder.

[mattyboy]

:confused: ........Huh?

Let us keep #3 off to the side (for the moment) and focus on #7 and #8. Matty,kindly read back through the thread and you will see that Fred Darwick is the source on both Hull #7 and Hull #8. Both boats used the "Hot Volvo" package and that is directly from Fred. In addition, there is Fred's boat running in the January 2, 1965 Orange Bowl Nine Hour.

sorry missed mark the hulls i had fred's as 5 and david's as 6

so the question remains how long after fred's is the david ray boat ?? If it is ordered after Fred's invoice it is real unlikely that it left the molds in 64

the rest I have seen no firm info on.

[Greg Guimond]

sorry missed mark the hulls i had fred's as 5 and david's as 6. so the question remains how long after fred's is the david ray boat ?? If it is ordered after Fred's invoice it is real unlikely that it left the molds in 64. the rest I have seen no firm info on.


Well, funny to see you agree with me on Hull #7 and #8. That only took three pages of posts :rolleyes: I'll get around to David's in a few days. I have to plow some snow and get The Mule ready for a spin. David's is pretty easy.

[mattyboy]

Well, funny to see you agree with me on Hull #7 and #8. That only took three pages of posts :rolleyes: I'll get around to David's in a few days. I have to plow some snow and get The Mule ready for a spin. David's is pretty easy.

I agree the David ray boat exists by Fred's account where it falls on the 64 timeline if at all remains unconfirmed

[mattyboy]

so to be clear as of the dec 10 invoice of Fred's boat I have 6 donzi built the David Ray boat has not been confirmed in the timeline. That gives them 14 business days to years end. So If he saw Fred's and wanted one then ordered it getting it before year's end would be unlikely.

also on your numbers 7 10 11 and 12 are the hulls I have seen no real info on



Another point for the ones who think Don was mass producing, there was a backlog for the 233 as well he couldn't seem to keep up with orders there. When he sold Formula the backlog was still there probably a nice selling point until the 233 crazed public catches a glimpse of the future. ;)

[Greg Guimond]

so to be clear as of the dec 10 invoice of Fred's boat I have 6 donzi built the David Ray boat has not been confirmed in the timeline. That gives them 14 business days to years end. So If he saw Fred's and wanted one then ordered it getting it before year's end would be unlikely. also on your numbers 7 10 11 and 12 are the hulls I have seen no real info on.

I've been on this for only one year and you have been doing this for 15 years and you don't have any info to add to the discussion for Hull 7,10, 11, and 12 ? Exactly what the hell have you been doin all that time ?

Sorry man, but I'm starting to think a demotion from "Elder Historian" is in order. Hopefully you get some fresh info this month on those 4 hulls Matty :bighug:

[Greg Guimond]

One logistical note regarding the transport time of boats from Miami, Florida to the UWS NYC to arrive on January 13th for the 1965 NY Boat Show.

That year the show had 290 boats over 20' in length and was the evidently one of biggest in the country so Donzi would have wanted to be buttoned up. On January 11, 1965 there was a large snow storm that laid down a foot plus of the nasty white stuff from Virginia to all the way up to New Jersey. Now, I happen to have personal experience driving that exact route as I once did it in College with four of my roomates from Fort Lauderdale (ironically Bob Cox was Mayor and was pissed) to the GW Bridge. Yes, we did leave directly from the wet T-shirt contest venue and with the help of some - - - - I decided I was going to drive the whole thing myself. While it was my car, it was NOT the brightest idea I have come up with. None the less, I did it in 26 hours, with one fast food stop only. We all talk about it to this day.

Given my hammer down 26 hours, I wonder how long it took for someone to tow a boat behind them with constant worry from a snow storm! :confused:

Ps: Matty, if you think that the factory re-used one of the 16 hulls that were already built in 1964 you'll need to dig up some info to support that from "those in the know".

[mattyboy]

One logistical note regarding the transport time of boats from Miami, Florida to the UWS NYC to arrive on January 13th for the 1965 NY Boat Show.

That year the show had 290 boats over 20' in length and was the evidently one of biggest in the country so Donzi would have wanted to be buttoned up. On January 11, 1965 there was a large snow storm that laid down a foot plus of the nasty white stuff from Virginia to all the way up to New Jersey. Now, I happen to have personal experience driving that exact route as I once did it in College with four of my roomates from Fort Lauderdale (ironically Bob Cox was Mayor and was pissed) to the GW Bridge. Yes, we did leave directly from the wet T-shirt contest venue and with the help of some - - - - I decided I was going to drive the whole thing myself. While it was my car, it was NOT the brightest idea I have come up with. None the less, I did it in 26 hours, with one fast food stop only. We all talk about it to this day.

Given my hammer down 26 hours, I wonder how long it took for someone to tow a boat behind them with constant worry from a snow storm! :confused:

Ps: Matty, if you think that the factory re-used one of the 16 hulls that were already built in 1964 you'll need to dig up some info to support that from "those in the know".

Greg

**** off

[Greg Guimond]

Greg **** off

Absolutely! Now, an interesting snippet in from Frank Civitano today. He's not terribly accessible but I asked him about the boat show and he told me that his Dad did not buy the 16 at/or as a result of the New York Boat Show. He was really confident of that because he indicated that his Dad was very good friends with Don. I'm still trying to figure out a few more details with him but it was 50 years ago so we shall see.

[Greg Guimond]

I also stumbled upon a pretty interesting interview with Billy Wishnik later in his life which I am waiting to be sent to me :yes:

[Greg Guimond]

.
.
Here is an excerpt from the Wishnik interview ......
.

[Greg Guimond]

so to be clear as of the dec 10 invoice of Fred's boat I have 6 donzi built the David Ray boat has not been confirmed in the timeline. That gives them 14 business days to years end. So If he saw Fred's and wanted one then ordered it getting it before year's end would be unlikely.

I Disagree.
I would say very likely. You are making the big assumption that David Ray waited for Fred's delivery to actually physically occur before he ordered his own 16. Robert Cox was the first Donzi dealer in Florida and got his 16 before Fred did. David could have easily eyeballed Bob's boat over at Lauderdale Marina and then, knowing his friend Fred Darwick was taking the plunge, gone over to the factory and ordered one with Fred's help.

The other thing Matty I find hard to figure out (shocker) is your reverse construction timeline logic for the Hornet 19 vis a vis David Ray's 16. You say a Hornet could come out of the mold on January 2, 1965 and be at the NY Boat Show by end of day January 13th according to your post below. If the factory could turn out a 19 in 10 days, then why can't they build David Ray's smaller 16 using twice the time and easily deliver it in '64?

:confused:



........so let's reverse engineer the 19 at the show in NYC in jan of '65

Jan 12 1965 it rolls thru the lincoln tunnel on it's way to the show
Jan 9 1965 it gets on the fla tpk heading to the big apple
Jan 8 th quick test run with pics for Don Dave and Brownie then on the trailer
Jan 2 popped from mold and headed to riggin

[woobs]

I Disagree.
I would say very likely. You are making the big assumption that David Ray waited for Fred's delivery to actually physically occur before he ordered his own 16....

If Fred's boat was invoiced on Dec 10th, when would it have come out of the mould? I'm pretty sure they did not wait for the previous boat to be rigged, invoiced and delivered before starting the next boat.
Why would a startup company leave a mould empty? They wouldn't. Keeping those moulds working is how they made money.

The next boat in production would already be a "work in process" whether David Ray ordered it right away or waited. It's just a matter of colour choice and product allocation. It is more than likely that this boat is a true 1964. Well, all that... and Fred said so. Confirmed.

[Greg Guimond]

If Fred's boat was invoiced on Dec 10th, when would it have come out of the mould? I'm pretty sure they did not wait for the previous boat to be rigged, invoiced and delivered before starting the next boat.
Why would a startup company leave a mould empty? They wouldn't. Keeping those moulds working is how they made money.

The next boat in production would already be a "work in process" whether David Ray ordered it right away or waited. It's just a matter of colour choice and product allocation. It is more than likely that this boat is a true 1964. Well, all that... and Fred said so. Confirmed.

I agree 100% :yes:

In addition to your comment woobs about keeping the 16 Ski Sporter mold "working" for business reasons alone, the other thing that helps cement the fact that David D Rays 16 was a 1964 is Donzi's success in the Miami Key West race on November 6, 1964. They ran three 28's + two 19's in that specific race and you can be darn sure the teams great results that weekend made every Florida news headline the very next day.

IMO that would have created a ton of great PR buzz, and a lot of confidence around the "new brand" to motivate people like David Ray to buy a boat from Donzi if they were still on the fence.
.

[Greg Guimond]

I spoke at length with a gentleman who had recently (re) purchased a Shepherd in Ontario. His story was that his boat was one of 3 boats built by Donzi but badged as Shepherds that were sent to Ontario at the same time for use in early promotional sales. I saw his boat - it was re-badged as Donzi and was consistent with an early build (no clam vents), thin lay-up etc. Woobs - you probably know the details on that story and can correct any potential inaccuracies in his story of three original Donzi built/Shepherd badged boats based on your own ongoing research of timelines. The past is murky....

While I finish my data collection with Frank Civitano Jr I went back to your post Rob. I have done no work on the Canada 16's as woobs has that more than covered so my question is around the count of (3) boats.

Question for you guys up North, do we know for sure that (3) boats were sent from Miami to Ontario? I probably missed a comment earlier in the thread answering this. Was it three hulls all shipped at once? I'm in contact with the USA Association folks and they are looking to see what they have reaching back to the 1965 NYC Show. I'm asking them if they can tell how many hulls Donzi had on there manifest sheet for January 13th which was the first day of the NY Show. I found the 1964 Directory below but so far no 1965.

[Greg Guimond]

Greg what info do you have on two boats at the nyc show??? I think this list is about 4-5 hulls high. the 16 donzi hornet ? motor boating you had one job really????


.......... another recollection I have is a discussion with Walt at the Dustoff. we were talking to Dave Hartman of Hornet Marine who gave Walt a picture of Walt and Dave's father in a race boat. Dave was having some issues so he worked all night to get it to the docks the next morning . Walt said that brings back memories working all night to get a boat ready for a show. So I wouldn't be at all surprised if the NY or Toronto show boats were popped and finished in early Jan of 65 .


So ...... which 2 hulls went to the New York boat show opening January 15, 1965? And which one of those continued on to the Toronto boat show a couple weeks later or, was that yet another boat?

I thought I had some info on the number of Ski Sporter 16's at the NY Show, I just had to find it. 'Ol Matty musa missed this but below is a post on the matter from a prior board member here at .net who is long gone.

Note also (because days matter lol) that any boats being exhibited at the 1965 NY Boat Show had to be on the floor be end of business January 13 as the press were invited in for previews the next morning at 9am. So the simple question is can you pop two 16's from the mold at 9am January 2, have them fully rigged and show ready, and then transport them through a snow storm to be in New York and inside the Coliseum in 11 days?

11 Days ................... from birth in Miami to shiny debut in NYC at the countries largest marine show. I have to think on that a bit :screwy:

http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xd/484588146.mp4?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=72990B68305E4FDF269C272DD3D67CB62B6A5D266AEA58DB E924B709A01E3A72D4E20CF1E3038641


One day on my way to dinner, I got a call on my cell from a guy who said he had an original 16' Donzi from the 1965 boat show. He told me there was a red one and a blue one at the show. Don Aronow was at the show and it was the introduction of the 16 to the world. Now maybe by red and blue, he meant the stripes on the boats. Its been years and I don't remember all of the conversation anymore.


Anyhooooooo, both the boats at the show went home with him. However, I remember him telling me the red one was destroyed in either a fire or hurricane maybe and I believe the boats were in Louisiana at the time? So just by the process of elimination, there is or was a 1965 blue and white 16 out there in the world somewhere. Hope it hasn't been destroyed also........Good luck gentlemen finding that boat.

[woobs]

At this time I have no evidence to support three hulls coming to Canada at the same time in 1964. I was told about the first 16 coming up to be used for promotional work (starting with TIBS) and as a "guide" for building the boats once the moulds arrived.

It is possible that more boats came up when the 18 was introduced.

I'll know more when I get to sort through all the Shepherd paperwork.

[Greg Guimond]

woobs, do you happen to have the specific dates in January '65 of the Toronto Boat Show? The 55th Annual National Motor Boat Show in NYC where there were two 16's displayed was January 15 through 24 of 1965.


My notes said January... and I have a picture with the caption of "preview of the international boat show" dated Jan 1 1965. I assumed it was just prior to the show opening like a VIP night. But, obviously I'm mistaken as Rob clearly shows the dates in February. One of the NY show boats could have easily shipped up for the Toronto show. That actually makes sense unless the NY boats were spoken for... and nobody is in a rush to stock a boat in January.

.
I think that the photo below is actually tied to the 1965 London Show. It also had "International" in the title and was held in early January. The picture being associated with London makes even more sense when we look at the NYC Show starting on January 13, 1965. The Shepherd records will most likely firm up the details on what Ski Sporter was brought North. Was it one of the two 16's at the NYC Show?, or was it a totally different hull that was sent in rough form from Miami bypassing the NYC Show entirely? Those old dusty notes could prove out a lot of December details for the 1964 Ski Sporter 16 Timeline.
.


At the January 1965 Toronto International Boat Show there was a Donzi Ski Sporter on display in the Shepherd booth. The "deal" had only just been done and Shepherd production would not be up and running at this time. I can without a doubt say 1 boat brought to Canada was a 1964 build. The other 2 boats came at a later date and one was an 18. This Toronto International Boat Show boat MAY be the boat Rob M refers to.


.

[woobs]

.
I think that the photo below is actually tied to the 1965 London Show.....

It was from a Toronto newspaper and clearly named the location as Exhibition Place (a Downtown Toronto fixture that also holds the Canadian National Exhibition).

[Greg Guimond]

It was from a Toronto newspaper and clearly named the location as Exhibition Place (a Downtown Toronto fixture that also holds the Canadian National Exhibition).

Ahh, got it and agreed. Peculiar that the photograph is dated January 1, 1965 while the Toronto International Boat Show where the 16 was shown was not until February 5th.

Onward.

[Greg Guimond]

Meanwhile back in New York City, Allan Brown and whoever was with him had to not only drive North through a foot + snowstorm with boats in tow, but then trudge through the white stuff upon arrival at the New York Coliseum on January 13th for the Boat Show. Below is a photo from 1965 in Columbus Circle on the opening day of the show.

[Greg Guimond]

.
And then I find that 12 years ago Brownie added some info on the Ski Sporter's that were in the booth in NYC. I'll put that one in the confirmed pile while hunting for the 2nd 16.


TheBiloxi lady....Mrs. Joe Brown. The blue "18", a 1965 16'! November,1964 Jacksonville, Fl. boat show display, a white 16' w/blue stripe.
January 1965, New York Boat Show NY Coliseum display, 16' white w/blue stripe and a green Hornet turbo Daytona 327 w/silver stripe. February 1965 Miami Boat Showdisplay, at Dinner Key, a white 16' with red stripe, and a (same) green Hornet.We didn't have the 18' yet. At the '65 show, I was polishing the deck of theHornet when a grey haired guy with a frowsy blonde came by the booth before theshow opened and said "I would like to buy this boat for my wife". Isaid " Yeah, me too, pal". About an hour later, Jack Manson, who wasthe show boss brought them back and said "Brownie, I think you should meetJim Kimberly" I said "Oh, s##t!" He said "I just came backto tell you to stick that boat up your a**!, kid." Oops!

[Greg Guimond]

While I watch the debate.........

Below, Billy Wishnik (noted offshore racer) in his internal board interview in 1991 that I got my hands on, tells us that Don Aronow himself was working the 16's at the New York Boat Show in January 1965. This confirms what boldts said in his post above. Maybe it was just Allan Brown and Aronow at the New York show? I would think at least one or two more were there. Wishnik goes on to say that there were (4) 28's and (1) 19 Hornet rigged to race in Miami on Jan 1, 1965. He did not know that there was also a 19 Hornet Outboard down there as well. Bill Wishnik would become CEO of Witco Chemical in NYC before his death.

[Greg Guimond]

.
So I went back to comments about how long it took Donzi to build a Ski Sporter. I wanted to relate the comments of "people in the know", to that of Hull #9 and #10 below.


In May of 1965 delivery of a 16 is at 4 weeks. at this time there are no unsold hulls and many have paid in full and not taken delivery of the boats. We know that production of the 16 can be done in as little as 5 days (start to finish) but that pace is later than 65 but the avg is 2-3 weeks when Teleflex owns Donzi and man power is added.

The #9 hull is completely off the controversy table. Even if Donzi only had one 16 mold and waited until Fred Darwick's boat was invoiced and delivered on December 10th, 1964, they had 3 full weeks to complete another 16. Case closed 100% on David Ray's #9 being a 1964 build. It is a '64.

So on to #10. It could have gone in a second available mold at the same time as David D. Ray's hull. After all David's was a "sold" customer hull and spoken for so they would definitely build another 16. If it went in the mold at the same time it's a 1964. If Donzi waited for David's hull to be popped out after say 5 days after Freds because they had only one 16 mold, that still leaves 2 weeks to rig and finish the boat, so confidently still a 1964. BUT, it they waited any number of days, it could have gone in the mold in 1964 and popped out on January 2, 1965 with a hangover. The factory needs that boat in NYC on Jan 13. With 100% certainty it takes 2 full days to tow a boat from Miami to NYC under clear skis with two drivers and no over night stops. But, you had heavy rain in the Southern states and a blizzard to contend with starting in Virginia so add one day for transport time overall.

You now have Jan 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, to rig a boat that would introduce the Ski Sporter to the masses at the biggest boat show in the world. 9 days to rig a showboat. With a full court press, IMO it could be done.

BUT, they also had to get the Hornet 19' ready for the same show and Walt Walters commented about hustling a boat under pressure for a show appearance before his passing.

Still, with all that, I'm going to say the #10 boat was a 1965 hull. Off with it's head lol
.

Hull 9. David Ray boat - White with Blue stripe. Initially powered with the same Hot Volvo110/100 package. Sold to David D. Ray directly by Don A with Fred's help. Boat still exists in Merritt Island, Florida today but Matty hasn't gotten any photos
Confirmed as a 1964 build

Hull 10. New York Boat Show 16 – No photos so what color was it? Show was Jan 13, 1965. Could it have then continued North to the Shepherd boys or was an entirely different (and additional) '64 hull shipped up to Canada? woobs asking TIBS
Confirmed but was birth 12/31 or 1/2 ? Probably January 2 so it's off the list for now.

[Morgan's Cloud]

Interesting . Looks like even Bill Wishnik was confused as to the origin of the word 'Donzi'

[Greg Guimond]

Interesting . Looks like even Bill Wishnik was confused as to the origin of the word 'Donzi'

Yep that's what I thought as well. Here is another excerpt from the lengthy interview that Wishnik gave that day ............

[Greg Guimond]

.
So, as I have trudged down "Research Road" this 2016 Winter on the 1964 Ski Sporter builds, I've now come to where things stand based on the latest info that's been gathered.
Below is the order in which the hulls were built in 1964 with Hull #1 probably being popped from the mold last week of May or first week of June, 1964. So much Winter left :bighug:

New things sorted out -

Hull #3 - I found and I'm in contact with Frank Civitano Jr, but still a lot of ground to cover on #3
Hull #9 - I had to demote Matty (he filed a grievance with the Union) to slackerdom. Below, I've posted a picture of the David D. Ray hull. As a 1964, note that it includes the mythic "deck grab rail"
Hull #10 - We now have confirmed for the first time (from two sources) that this hull was white with a blue strip when it sat in the booth next to Don Aronow and Brownie in NYC January 13, 1965
Hull #11 - We found some new information on this one. Ex board member "boldts" indicates it existed, but a lot more research still needed as boltds can't be located


Hull 1. Original B+W Press Release boat – Photo shows the “long” inner strakes & Volvo drive. Mike Aronow writes of taking a test run with his Dad in KOTBR. Date of B+W photo unknown, but must be snapped after May 5, and before October 5, 1964
100% Confirmed

Hull 2. Teknikens Varld Magazine boat - White w/ Red deck stripe only. New "shortened" inner strakes & single thru hull exhaust in photo. No Grab Rail. Shipped to Volvo Sweden for tests which was likely hastened by the 10/1/64 Longshoremans strike
100% Confirmed

Hull 3. Frank Civitano Sr boat - Solid green w/ Red deck stripe. Frank's Dad was personal friends with Don A from construction. Boat was used for Summer of '64 in Southern NJ. Motor, drive and Deck Grab Rail Unknown. Photo lost in Superstorm Sandy
50% - Definitely existed but still somewhat suspect as a 1964 build

Hull 4. Jim Wynne driving boat - White w/ Red deck & red chine stripe. Speedo to right of helm. Inner strakes not clear but look to be "short" in photos. Drive ID'd as Volvo Aq200 Euro loaner. No Deck Grab Rail. Photos thought to be taken Sept/Oct '64
100% Confirmed

Hull 5. Allan Brown driving boat - White w/ Green deck stripe only - Ford Eaton 260 cu inch V8 165hp motor & Eaton flip up drive. No Deck Grab Rail. Again, color photo of both Brown and Wynne running side by side thought to be taken Sept/Oct 1964
100% Confirmed

Hull 6. Jacksonville Boat Show boat - White w/ Blue deck stripe thru dash & blue chine stripe. Brownie at show on 11/13/64. Shown in Four Page Color Brochure with El Camino, & on Travel-Lift. First Aq200 production drive in USA - No Deck Grab Rail
100% Confirmed

Hull 7. Bob Cox and Ed Joyce boat - No photo of hull at Lauderdale Marina found so far. Initially they raced a Formula 233 then became the first Donzi dealer in Florida. "Hot" Volvo 110/100 package. Deck Grab Rail unknown. ID provided by F. Darwick
100% Confirmed

Hull 8. Fred Darwick race boat - Invoice #67 dated 12/10/64 shows $3,095. Photo of hull marked with race #11 shows it as White w/ Green deck stripe & green chine stripe. "Hot" Volvo 110 (made 140hp) & special race Aq100 drive. No Deck Grab Rail
100% Confirmed

Hull 9. David Ray boat - White w/ Blue deck stripe. Initial power also "Hot" Volvo 110/100 package. Sold to David Ray directly by Don Aronow with Fred's help. Boat still exists in Merritt Island today under a different owner. Race AQ100 drive in storage.
100% Confirmed

Hull 10. New York Boat Show 16 – Color was white with a blue stripe. Show was Jan 13, 1965. Could it have then continued North to the Shepherd boys or was an entirely different (and additional) '64 hull shipped up to Canada? woobs asking TIBS
100% Confirmed but was birth 12/31 or 1/2 ? Looks like January 2, 1965

Hull 11. Second New York Boat Show 16 - Did it exist, get sold and sent South? Only Brownie would remember if there were two Ski Sporter’s in the booth next to the $8,000 green 19' Hornet. Bill Wishnik said Don Aronow was in booth w/ Allan Brown
25% - More work to be done

Hull 12. Canada Shepherd Ltd boat - woobs has made contact with Jim Hahn Jr., whose Dad managed Shepherd Boats at this time. A meeting to review old Donzi partnership papers that still exist for added clues will take place sometime in 2016
75% - All is now tied to review of the 50 year old papers

[Greg Guimond]

.
While continuing to work some more on the Ski Sporter hulls that were at the New York Boat Show on January 13, 1965 I found this article on the show. Hmmmmmm, jet black.

[woobs]

.
While continuing to work some more on the Ski Sporter hulls that were at the New York Boat Show on January 13, 1965 I found this article on the show. Hmmmmmm, jet black.

Does this also mean it was the only 16 at the show?

[Rob M]

[SIZE=1].

[/FONT][/COLOR]Hull 10. New York Boat Show 16 – Color was white with a blue stripe. Show was Jan 13, 1965. Could it have then continued North to the Shepherd boys or was an entirely different (and additional) '64 hull shipped up to Canada? woobs asking TIBS
100% Confirmed but was birth 12/31 or 1/2 ? Looks like January 2, 1965

Hull 11. Second New York Boat Show 16 - Did it exist, get sold and sent South? Only Brownie would remember if there were two Ski Sporter’s in the booth next to the $8,000 green 19' Hornet. Bill Wishnik said Don Aronow was in booth w/ Allan Brown
25% - More work to be done

Hull 12. Canada Shepherd Ltd boat - woobs has made contact with Jim Hahn Jr., whose Dad managed Shepherd Boats at this time. A meeting to review old Donzi partnership papers that still exist for added clues will take place sometime in 2016
75% - All is now tied to review of the 50 year old papers


Here is a picture of "reportedly" the first Donzi/Shepherd hull in Canada. The story I was told was that there were 2-3 of these made by Donzi, shipped to Canada and re-badged as Shepherds for sales promo purposes, prior to the molds arriving for independent manufacture in Canada. On this one, when you check closely in person, you can see the original Shepherd logo shadow quite clearly, although it has since been re-badged DONZI. According to the story - this one is the first Donzi/Shepherd hull - purchased direct off the boatshow floor. How true all that is, I don't know, but I am sure Woobs can clear alot of that up in the Spring when he digs into the Shepherd records. The layup on this hull is very light - the sun shines through - and it has no deck vents, just the floor vent and a rear vent. From what I recall - the colour of the gel is original (Yellow). Hopefully you guys can decipher the validity of all that...

[woobs]

The Shepherd/Donzis had both logos on the hull. So, technically not re-badged...

It is my understanding that several boats came up from FLA but, not at the same time. First a 16 SS for the 1965 TIBS, later (summer '65) another 16 and finally an 18. The 16 moulds came up in the spring of 1965 and they were used (possibly the original moulds).

The Canadian made Shepherd/Donzi 16's were always built according to the earliest layup schedule and to my knowledge not changed with the exception of some PVC stiffeners in the hatch that were perpendicular to the direction of the US made boats. Even when the US modified its procedures, Canadian production stayed the same. This consistent early build procedure may have been spelled out in the original license contract and not amended.

I have little information on hull colours however, I do know that Shepherd made yellow boats in 1965. (one sold in 2013 down London, Ontario way) I'm hoping the box-o-records will shed light on all of this.

[Greg Guimond]

Here is a picture of "reportedly" the first Donzi/Shepherd hull in Canada. The story I was told was that there were 2-3 of these made by Donzi, shipped to Canada and re-badged as Shepherds for sales promo purposes, prior to the molds arriving for independent manufacture in Canada. the colour of the gel is original (Yellow). Hopefully you guys can decipher the validity of all that...

Very interesting Rob. That yellow boat could prove to be a significant piece of the "1964 Build Timeline" puzzle once woobs sits down with Jim Hahn Jr to review the written documents from Shepherd Boats.

My contact with the folks down here at the New York Show only ended up yielding this one photograph below, so not nearly the help I was hoping for :garfield:

[Greg Guimond]

.While continuing to work some more on the Ski Sporter hulls that were at the New York Boat Show on January 13, 1965 I found this article on the show. Hmmmmmm, jet black.


Does this also mean it was the only 16 at the show?

I honestly don't know yet.

It does add more controversial tidbits to deal with (for hulls 10, 11, 12) which I love because the bigger the Winter alligator, the more I like wrestling it. The comment about a Jet Black hull is something that I very loosely interpret as a "solid color" 16. Maybe it was solid blue & the dude was color blind as I've never once heard mention by the Elders on this forum any all black 16's. It certainly wasn't yellow like the Shepherd boat above.

Things that make you say hmmmmmm. Going down to 5 degrees here tomorrow.

[Robbie O]

RobM, correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember the "Shepard" shadow being much larger and more towards the center of the boat than it is in the other photos of Shepard Donzis.

Wasn't it?

[Rob M]

RobM, correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember the "Shepard" shadow being much larger and more towards the center of the boat than it is in the other photos of Shepard Donzis.

Wasn't it?

I think it is in the same spot as in the first two photos. It is a big logo, just ahead of typical Donzi placement.

[Rob M]

I honestly don't know yet.

It does add more controversial tidbits to deal with (for hulls 10, 11, 12) which I love because the bigger the Winter alligator, the more I like wrestling it. The comment about a Jet Black hull is something that I very loosely interpret as a "solid color" 16. Maybe it was solid blue & the dude was color blind as I've never once heard mention by the Elders on this forum any all black 16's. It certainly wasn't yellow like the Shepherd boat above.

Things that make you say hmmmmmm. Going down to 5 degrees here tomorrow.

I wonder if this early boat is black or Grumble Green?

[Greg Guimond]

I wonder if this early boat is black or Grumble Green?

Interesting thought Rob. That picture is of Dr. Oskar Trost of Dusseldorf Germany.

Trost was an extremely well known offshore racer during the entire 1960's decade and into the '70's. This guy was accomplished and comfortable racing all kinds of powerboats including Fino's' Chris Crafts and Bertrams. The photograph looks about as close to an all jet black Ski Sporter 16 as you could ask for BUT what little information exists on it claims the photo was shot in 1965 at Lake Constance. What makes no sense to me is why a high net worth German industrialist would need to drive south 6 hours to Lake Constance for weekend fun. Also, if the photo was taken in early 1965 why does the Ski Sporter not have a grab rail?

During this thread I have tried to research if Dr. Trost was a Donzi dealer at some point similar to Robert Cox of Lauderdale Marina. Details are sketchy on that so far.

[Greg Guimond]

.
I have also found it pretty interesting to lay down the Oskar Trost hull along side of the 1964 Fred Darwick 16 race hull. They both have very similar badging.

[woobs]

.... Also, if the photo was taken in early 1965 why does the Ski Sporter not have a grab rail? ....

I know you have done some research however, I believe the handrail was still an option in 1965 as evidenced by this order form and bill of sale for 16-136 (handrail listed as separate item and separate charge) both from July 1965.

[woobs]

Greg, is this picture from the NYC show in January of 1965?

An interesting photo clearly showing the white hull and a non white deck (possibly yellow?).
Also, directly behind the subject boat it looks as though there is another 16 with a dark "freeboard" (possibly black?).

If this is the case we see that:

- There were 2 boats at the show.
- Coloured decks were made in 1964.
- Confirm existence of a black? (or at the very least dark) hull in 1964.

[Morgan's Cloud]

Sean , that picture had me wondering as well. With all we've been told about what was at the '65 show I was expecting 2 solid white 16's with colored stripes on them .
The 16 in the pic (is it a 16 and not an 18 ?) def has a colored deck and the bit of the bootstripe visible is yet a different color than the deck . And it has a grab rail .
The hull in the rear is a 19 footer but seeing as there is no deck visible might it have been a St T ? The only color the Hornets came in would not have shown up as dark in a B and W photo as that one did . It looks more like it's a very dark blue or even black .

Thus the question , is it really at the '65 show ?

[Greg Guimond]

I know you have done some research however, I believe the handrail was still an option in 1965 as evidenced by this order form and bill of sale for 16-136 (handrail listed as separate item and separate charge) both from July 1965.

Good catch woobs, I had forgotten that it was an option so that pushes the Trost hull further away from being a possible 1964 hull.

[Greg Guimond]

.
Putting the 1964 16 Build List with my latest adjustments back up for reference.

The question now that I have to add to the this thread is how do we square BOTH a solid yellow hull and a solid black hull? Were either of those built in 1964, time will tell.


Hull 1. Original B+W Press Release boat – Photo shows the “long” inner strakes & Volvo drive. Mike Aronow writes of taking a test run with his Dad in KOTBR. Date of B+W photo unknown, but must be snapped after May 5, and before October 5, 1964
100% Confirmed

Hull 2. Teknikens Varld Magazine boat - White w/ Red deck stripe only. New "shortened" inner strakes & single thru hull exhaust in photo. No Grab Rail. Shipped to Volvo Sweden for tests which was likely hastened by the 10/1/64 Longshoremans strike
100% Confirmed

Hull 3. Frank Civitano Sr boat - Solid green w/ Red deck stripe. Frank's Dad was personal friends with Don A from construction. Boat was used for Summer of '64 in Southern NJ. Motor, drive and Deck Grab Rail Unknown. Photo lost in Superstorm Sandy
50% - Definitely existed but still somewhat suspect as a 1964 build

Hull 4. Jim Wynne driving boat - White w/ Red deck & red chine stripe. Speedo to right of helm. Inner strakes not clear but look to be "short" in photos. Drive ID'd as Volvo Aq200 Euro loaner. No Deck Grab Rail. Photos thought to be taken Sept/Oct '64
100% Confirmed

Hull 5. Allan Brown driving boat - White w/ Green deck stripe only - Ford Eaton 260 cu inch V8 165hp motor & Eaton flip up drive. No Deck Grab Rail. Again, color photo of both Brown and Wynne running side by side thought to be taken Sept/Oct 1964
100% Confirmed

Hull 6. Jacksonville Boat Show boat - White w/ Blue deck stripe thru dash & blue chine stripe. Brownie at show on 11/13/64. Shown in Four Page Color Brochure with El Camino, & on Travel-Lift. First Aq200 production drive in USA - No Deck Grab Rail
100% Confirmed

Hull 7. Bob Cox and Ed Joyce boat - No photo of hull at Lauderdale Marina found so far. Initially they raced a Formula 233 then became the first Donzi dealer in Florida. "Hot" Volvo 110/100 package. Deck Grab Rail unknown. ID provided by F. Darwick
100% Confirmed

Hull 8. Fred Darwick race boat - Invoice #67 dated 12/10/64 shows $3,095. Photo of hull marked with race #11 shows it as White w/ Green deck stripe & green chine stripe. "Hot" Volvo 110 (made 140hp) & special race Aq100 drive. No Deck Grab Rail
100% Confirmed

Hull 9. David Ray boat - White w/ Blue deck stripe. Initial power also "Hot" Volvo 110/100 package. Sold to David Ray directly by Don Aronow with Fred's help. Boat still exists in Merritt Island today under a different owner. Race AQ100 drive in storage.
100% Confirmed

Hull 10. New York Boat Show 16 – Color was white with a blue stripe. Show was Jan 13, 1965. Could it have then continued North to the Shepherd boys or was an entirely different (and additional) '64 hull shipped up to Canada? woobs asking TIBS
100% Confirmed but was birth 12/31 or 1/2 ? Looks like January 2, 1965

Hull 11. Second New York Boat Show 16 - Did it exist, get sold and sent South? Only Brownie would remember if there were two Ski Sporter’s in the booth next to the $8,000 green 19' Hornet. Bill Wishnik said Don Aronow was in booth w/ Allan Brown
25% - More work to be done

Hull 12. Canada Shepherd Ltd boat - Was it solid yellow? woobs has made contact with Jim Hahn Jr., whose Dad managed Shepherd Boats at this time. They'll meet to review old Donzi partnership papers that still exist for added clues sometime in 2016
75% - All is now tied to review of the 50 year old papers

Hull 13. All Black boat - Was this yet another totally different 16 or was the reporter calling it black when it was actually another dark color? Only one person in the world would know
Not sure at all on this one. Curve ball.

[Greg Guimond]

Greg, is this picture from the NYC show in January of 1965?


........ that picture had me wondering as well. Thus the question , is it really at the '65 show ?

The answer is NO, the boat below it is not at the '65 show. I looked closer this morning at the clip and there is no snow in it visible outside the New York Coliseum on the UWS. Without snow, the photograph could not possibly have been taken at the January 14, 1965 National Powerboat Show because there was a blizzard that year confirmed in the article below. Interesting though that the stripe is not solid in the pic ...... but I digress.

[woobs]

... so that pushes the Trost hull further away from being a possible 1964 hull.
How so? It neither confirms nor denies the possibility.
What is the date of the first known use of the grab rail?

[Greg Guimond]

.
Hard to know exactly but I'd say November of '64. The real key to determining if the solid dark color Ski Sporter below is a 1964 isn't the grab rail, but is to track down Dr. Oskar Trost's only surviving child and ask.

:yes:

[Greg Guimond]

.
5 degrees outside just like the first day of the NY Show 51 years ago, so I'm coming back to the January 14, 1965 National Powerboat Show. Here's what we have to go on so far:
.

First, the one post below from 3,000+ poster Scott Boldt on 11-02-2008 that references two boats at the 1965 Show, a red one and a blue one ...........


One day on my way to dinner, I got a call on my cell from a guy who said he had an original 16' Donzi from 1965 boat show. He told me there was a red one and a blue one at the show. Don Aronow was at the show and it was the introduction of the 16 to the world. Now maybe by red and blue, he meant the stripes on the boats. Its been years and I don't remember all of the conversation anymore. Anywhooooooo, both the boats at the show went home with him. However, I remember him telling me the red one was destroyed in either a fire or hurricane maybe and I believe the boats were in Louisiana at the time? So just by the process of elimination, there is or was a 1965 blue and white 16 out there in the world somewhere. Hope it hasn't been destroyed also........Good luck gentlemen finding that boat.

Then, the never before discovered newspaper article I found in the Gaffney Ledger dated February 19, 1965 that refers to a black 16 .............83840
.

Also, there is the post (intact below) from legend Allan Brown on 9-12-2002 about a white and blue boat at the '65 New York Show ............


The Biloxi lady....Mrs. Joe Brown. The blue "18", a 1965 16'! November, 1964 Jacksonville, Fl. boat show display, a white 16' w/blue stripe. January 1965, New York Boat Show, NY Coliseum. Display, 16' white w/blue stripe and green Hornet w/turbo Daytona 327 w/silver stripe. February 1965 Miami Boat Show display, at Dinner Key, a white 16' with red stripe, and a (same) green Hornet. We didn't have the 18' yet. At the '65 show, I was polishing the deck of the Hornet when a grey haired guy with a frowsy blonde came by the booth before the show opened and said "I would like to buy this boat for my wife". I said " Yeah, me too, pal". About an hour later, Jack Manson, who was the show boss brought them back and said "Brownie, I think you should meet Jim Kimberly" I said "Oh, s##t!" He said "I just came back to tell you to stick that boat up your a**!, kid." Oops!

Add to the data points the NY Times article dated January 14, 1965 that talks of the 16 at the show but does not indicate a color ............. 83841

And finally, might as well add to the confusion the March, 1965 Motor Boating magazine picture with an incorrect reference to a green 16 .............. 83842

[Greg Guimond]

.
During the building of the 1964 Ski Sporter 16's Don Aronow decided to work with Wynn and Volvo and secure (6) semi-race "Hot Volvo" packages for import.

There were three reasons for this. First, they had been used in Europe with great success including the Paris 6 Hour Race. Second, Aronow had tried them in his Formula 233's in America including the 1964 Sam Griffith Memorial Race. Third, Aq200 drives were very tough to get in the US in December of 1964 and as these were faster, they were used instead. Three of these performance packages ended up being installed in 1964's (as shown in the Timeline) while one of them was put aside and stored for Don's Son Michael at a much later date. The "race" package was based on the 110 motor and 100 outdrive but had numerous enhancements to both. Below is a picture of the motor. There is rumor that one of these complete packages is still in existence in the US tucked away in a dusty barn. The installation of the other two motor packages has never been traced.

If Shepherd got a 16 that was built and sent directly to them in 1964, it's possible that one of the Hot Volvo race packages was installed in that 1st hull for promo success. The Shepherd records should add light to that.

[woobs]

Twin Webers is just motor porn!

[Greg Guimond]

Twin Webers is just motor porn!

Evidently according to the note below these Race Volvo 4 bangers left an impression with all age groups ..............

"Our motor and out drive. I remember, at 4 years old or so, my dad always stuffing the carbs with tennis balls to keep the salt air out. And tennis balls were always rolling around the bilge. We still have the motor and outdrive."