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TheSharkGuy
06-26-2015, 01:02 AM
So... this might be long...

Last year I bought a 1992 Classic 22. It is in 8/10 cosmetic condition, and had a freshly rebuilt Jasper 454 engine. It had a King Cobra outdrive. The lower unit started going bad right away, so I found an unused lower unit online and bought it. It was running pretty good. The guy was asking $20,000 for the boat and I ended up working him down to $13,000 at the end of the summer. So I think I got it for a good price.

This Memorial Day weekend, I was heading back across the bay and the engine shut off and wouldn't start back up. I eventually got towed in. The mechanic took the engine out and determined that the oil hose came unplugged, the engine wasn't getting any oil, and now it's toast. Metal filings were all in the upper unit, so that's done too.

I have cash in this boat, so I'm a bit restricted on my options. A 40th Anniversary caught my eye, but it's $35,000. I would need to sell my current one at a big loss, just to put SOME money to counter the $35,000 40th Anniversary. I would have a beautiful 40th Anniversary Donzi... but it would still have an 11 year old engine. I could lose that engine any day and I would take ANOTHER hit.

A new Mercruiser 502 is like $25,000... and I would still need to get an outdrive and I don't want to stay with King Cobra. I'm looking at forking up some serious cash... like $30,000. I can't do that.

After spending weeks looking around, and talking to dealers around the country, I found something that might work.

A dealer down in Florida says he can give me a New Mercruiser Scorpion 377 with a 3 Year Manufacturer Warranty, a new Bravo 1 outdrive, a prop, a harness, and any needed re-glassing of the transom for $19,500 including install.

I'm 30 years old, this is my first "real" boat, and I just can't justify doing much more financially. That package for $19,500 sounds like a deal. The current hull is in excellent shape and overall the boat is 8/10 cosmetically. Now I would have a brand new engine and outdrive.

The Scorpion is pushing 350HP at the prop. I know it's not the most HP, but it's a small block and weighs about 400lbs less than a big block... PLUS I am riding this boat in the Chesapeake Bay. A calm day in the Bay is still 1 foot chop, and its often more with white caps. I think that Scorpion will get me to a top speed of around 65mph, and that's really all I want/need in those conditions. I was hitting 60 with the old engine, and it's all I wanted... even trimmed out, the boat was jumping and getting a bit squirrely. Sure, it would be nice to crank her up to 70-75mph on the RARE extra calm day, but the $$$$ difference is too much for me. Furthermore, the Scorpion is great on gas and burns regular gas.

I'd love to have that 40th Anniversary Edition... The Yellow is SO SWEET and she looks SO clean. It would actually be cheaper than getting the setup down in Florida BUT BUT BUT I would have a boat with an 11 year old engine.

Should I go with the Scorpion package and call it a day? I'm really liking the idea of a brand new engine and outdrive... I'm tempted by the 40th Anniversary, but I think the smart thing to do is go with the new engine and drive.

Thanks for reading and any help!

yeller
06-26-2015, 01:50 AM
Why not just rebuild the 454? You already have a new lower unit on the Cobra, so the drive unit is half new.
If your not looking to make more power, I don't see any reason you couldn't be back boating for $5k.

Then if you decide you want to move onto another boat, you'll more than likely get all your investment back. Worst case, you'll only lose a couple grand....but you might even make a couple. If you put another $20k into the motor/drive, your getting close to having $35k into your boat and it'll be highly unlikely you'll get anywhere near that money back.

Can't blame you for wanting yellow though. :wink:

mattyboy
06-26-2015, 06:47 AM
+1

I would Image you could get a nice crate motor re use all your tin ware maybe upgrade your exhaust and go for something like this. with exhaust and install be around 9-11k

http://www.ebay.com/itm/500-plus-hp-454-mag-gen-6-marine-merc-hp-500-reliable-horsepower-7-4-mercruiser-/261897042747?hash=item3cfa47bb3b&vxp=mtr

TheSharkGuy
06-26-2015, 12:49 PM
I appreciate the replies!

So, I'm not a mechanic, and I don't know much about engines. I can do BASIC maintenance stuff, but that's about it.

I was just thinking that NEW technology and a new Mercruiser engine would be nice. It would be easy to get parts, and it would be less likely to have issues for a while. My local mechanic at the Bay said with the newer engine, he could get parts the next day from Mercruiser. Everything is slow moving down there so when a boat breaks, it takes the one mechanic down there weeks to get to it. I was just thinking that it would speed up any future repair process.

...but I see what you are saying. I could get back on the water for under $6K.

undertaker
06-26-2015, 01:17 PM
Shark Guy where do you boat on the Cheseapeake? A few of us Donzi 22 classic guys boat on the upper cheseapeake (Northeast River, Elk River).

I would look for a nice Mercruiser 500EFI (blue motor) on OSO and keep the king cobra drive. You could do a nice 500EFI with install/ engine compartment beefing up for most likely the same money as the 377 motor, however you will now have a 80-82 mph 22 classic.

Good friend of mine has a 93 22 classic with a Merc. 500EFI with a king cobra drive and the boat is awesome, runs like a scalded dog. He runs alot with me on the upper cheseapeake. He has had zero issues with the king cobra drive and one minor issue with motor but other than that it is a turn key 80-82 mph boat. Also know a few guys with blue merc motors in there boats (all upgraded from stock power) and they all run strong and are basically turn key boats. I plan on upgrading my 22 496HO package also to the merc blue stuff soon....

PM me if you need anymore info, good luck...


Undertaker :)

TheSharkGuy
06-26-2015, 01:41 PM
thanks for the advise undertaker... I am going to look into that. I've seen a lot of recommendations of the "blue motor" in various threads I have read through.

I have a place at the mouth of the Rappahannock... and we have a family place in Virginia Beach. I do most of my riding around Rappahannock area where I keep the boat. My father has a 38 Scarab that's much better for the Va Beach area and rougher days.

MOP
06-26-2015, 01:41 PM
Having had a 22 with a small block it had advantages less worry of drives issues better economy and no question it jumped wakes in a more controllable fashion with sweet landings, but yes you will run in the mid 60's. No matter what you someone is always faster chasing that dog is a losing issue, I made several Donzi runs and had no problem keeping except I did stop a lot less at the fuel docks.

Pat McPherson
06-26-2015, 01:48 PM
Stick with a Big Block in a 22'. I run a stock 502 crate motor and they can be had from 1-800 runs new or other for about 7K. Add in new dressings and for 8-10K you'll have a reliable engine that will push your boat 70+ loaded up any day of the week...
Reading about the Cobra drives, no need to change it out...
Good Luck!

undertaker
06-26-2015, 01:50 PM
thanks for the advise undertaker... I am going to look into that. I've seen a lot of recommendations of the "blue motor" in various threads I have read through.

I have a place at the mouth of the Rappahannock... and we have a family place in Virginia Beach. I do most of my riding around Rappahannock area where I keep the boat. My father has a 38 Scarab that's much better for the Va Beach area and rougher days.


Oh you are way down the chesepeake bay then :biggrin.:

Please send me a PM if you need anymore info, can also hook you up with my buddy who has the 93 22 with the 500 in it if you get serious....

Take care....

yeller
06-26-2015, 04:34 PM
As you can see, there are a lot of different opinions on what to do. I'm not trying to talk you into anything...just saying what I would do. You need to do what you are comfortable with.
Being a first boat, with only a season running it, I'd rebuild what you have. Get a quote from your mechanic on the cost. The top end, pistons, rods may be usable as is and maybe the crank just needs to be reground. If your lucky, he hones the cylinders, new rings/bearings, maybe a cam and your done.

OR,

Check offshoreonly.com. Check the classifieds and the Swap Shop forum for a good used 454 or 502.

Keeping your costs to a minimum you can use it for a couple seasons to see if it truly is the boat you want, and if it's not your not going to lose a bunch of money selling it.
If you do want the yellow boat, you have to get it running or you'll have to give it away. With a quick rebuild you'll probably get most if not all your money back. I'm basing that on the assumption that $13k purchase was a great deal...which I think it was.
If the yellow boat has low hours I wouldn't worry about the motors age. If kept stock, the 496 is a very reliable motor. There was some boats of that era that had issues with the hull cracking but it is easy to check for and if it hasn't happened yet it is very unlikely it will happen now...or it may have had the proper repair done

BUIZILLA
06-26-2015, 07:18 PM
I bought a takeout freshwater 502-415, complete, for $4500

roadtrip se
06-26-2015, 08:08 PM
A small block, even a Scorpion, is going to be pretty lame in a 22

I ran a 500 EFI for ten years in my 22, before having it built up into a 540.
Two words, carpet ride..

Second choice, the 502MPI...

Good luck with it.

TheSharkGuy
06-29-2015, 02:16 PM
Here are pics of my current boat taken over Memorial Day Weekend.

Pat McPherson
06-29-2015, 03:41 PM
She looks a lot better than many red Donzis I've seen.
Like others have told you, my advise would be to by a nice stock or close to stock BBC crate engine or take out engine and start enjoying her again...:shades:

Redink
06-29-2015, 06:11 PM
Last year almost to the day I was standing in the same shoes you find yourself in. The slightly worked 454 blew in my 1995 22C which we just purchased 1 year earlier. We looked at all of our options and landed on a 502 long block from 1800runsnew. Gave us more stock horsepower AND all of the extras from the 454 bolted right up such as intake and exhaust manifolds, carburetor, etc. We did wind up replacing a few parts that made sense to do since the engine was out anyway. We looked at a stroker engine but would have needed to buy all new extras also was concerned about the change in the weight balance of the boat. Now we have over 50 hours since the new block and not any issues, the boat is truly turn key. If for nothing else get the big block just because of the awesome melody it makes. Raises the hair on the back of my neck when I fire it up. :yes:

jl1962
06-30-2015, 08:16 AM
Shark Guy-

I have a blue 40th Anniversary 18 which I love.
Everybody loves the boat.
Even people who don't like Donzis love the boat.
I had wanted an 18 for years but wanted something special.
I was fortunate to be able to jump when this one became available.

My point is, don't spend a lot of your hard earned money for something you only kinda/sorta want, IF for a little more you can get something you REALLY want.

I wouldn't worry a bit about an 11 year old engine. Definitely check it out as best you can, but it all comes down to maintenance and condition. Also ANY boat, newer or older, will have some issues or will need something. Budget accordingly.......

But if you really want a 40th.........well, you know the rest......

mc donzi
06-30-2015, 12:19 PM
Shark Guy-

I have a blue 40th Anniversary 18 which I love.
Everybody loves the boat.
Even people who don't like Donzis love the boat.
I had wanted an 18 for years but wanted something special.
I was fortunate to be able to jump when this one became available.

My point is, don't spend a lot of your hard earned money for something you only kinda/sorta want, IF for a little more you can get something you REALLY want.

I wouldn't worry a bit about an 11 year old engine. Definitely check it out as best you can, but it all comes down to maintenance and condition. Also ANY boat, newer or older, will have some issues or will need something. Budget accordingly.......

But if you really want a 40th.........well, you know the rest......

I'm with jl1962....do what you REALLY want, not what you KINDA want.At least have a good look at the yellow 22.

I had my 2000 22C with a 454/385 big block 'scoped'(plugged into a laptop) a few years ago to determine the number of hours on the motor.

At the time my boat had a total of 277.8 hours. The scope also breaks the total hours down into 1000 RPM increments.

For instance, mine was as follows.

0-1000.......146.5
1000-2000.. 38.5
2000-3000.. 55.9
3000-4000.. 24.6
4000-5000.. 11.5
5000+........ 0.4
Max. RPM....5665(probably airborne) not by me.

0-1000....no way of telling whether the engine was idling or the boat was at anchor with the key on listening to the stereo.

At least now, armed with that information, you make a fairly educated guess as to how hard the boat has been run.

TheSharkGuy
06-30-2015, 02:33 PM
My mechanic down where the boat is has a 454 that he can build for me. Says it should put out around 425HP and he will give us a 1 year warranty. He also has a 502, but he doesn't want to part with it.

How much faster should the 425HP Big Block run compared to the 350HP Small Block?

.

Pat McPherson
07-01-2015, 09:51 AM
My mechanic down where the boat is has a 454 that he can build for me. Says it should put out around 425HP and he will give us a 1 year warranty. He also has a 502, but he doesn't want to part with it.

How much faster should the 425HP Big Block run compared to the 350HP Small Block?

.

My guess is that lightly loaded the boat will be 5mph faster on top with the 425HP/454.
It will be able to run a larger prop so midrange speed will probably be a larger difference.
The big block will have a lot more torque so it will accelerate far better and will carry heavier loads better.
I've owned 3 Donzis- a 1975 18 Classic with a 320HP/350 , 1987 20 Minx with a 270 then 300HP/350, and a 22 Classic with 415/502.
The 22C with 502 is a far better performer because of the big block; boat accelerates like mad...:shades:

jvcobra
07-01-2015, 11:45 AM
I'm going to have to go against the grain here and say if you go the new engine route do the Bravo conversion. Don't put any more money in the King Cobra out drive. It's a great drive and can handle a lot of HP but it makes re-sale very hard. The parts are getting hard to come by and everyone wants a Bravo boat which is probably why you got a good deal on this one. I had a supercharged 22 with a King Cobra and it was difficult to sell but that drive was bullet proof.

TheSharkGuy
07-01-2015, 01:30 PM
One reason I got the boat at such a good price is definitely because of the King Cobra drive. EVERYONE wants the Bravo. However, I wasn't buying the boat to re-sell it, and it actually is a good drive, so I didn't care, especially at the price I was getting. Yeah parts are getting scarce... I was surprised I was able to find an unused lower unit for it.



I'm going to have to go against the grain here and say if you go the new engine route do the Bravo conversion. Don't put any more money in the King Cobra out drive. It's a great drive and can handle a lot of HP but it makes re-sale very hard. The parts are getting hard to come by and everyone wants a Bravo boat which is probably why you got a good deal on this one. I had a supercharged 22 with a King Cobra and it was difficult to sell but that drive was bullet proof.

joseph m. hahnl
07-01-2015, 08:37 PM
When I replaced the SBC in the Minx, I went with a pre built Dart SHP short block. There are a lot of companies out there that sell Compression monsters for short money. Here's a link:biggrin.:http://www.tristarengines.com/catalog/marine-oe-replacement/gm/8-2l/part-p4202m-1992-up-gm-8-2l-502-cid-gen-vi-magnum-marine-engine-high-flow-heads-roller-cam.html

Pismo
07-07-2015, 04:05 PM
One concern i see is the 350hp/377 scorp has not been built by Merc for 10 years so is it really new? If so, it has been sitting for a while. No glass work would be needed to bolt on a Bravo setup. Did he include a trans assembly? I assume yes but i did not see it mentioned. TA is $2k new. X drive could be found for $5k.

Pismo
07-07-2015, 04:10 PM
Also, that has a new windshield setup, looks great.

TheSharkGuy
07-08-2015, 02:35 AM
At first I wasn't able to find the 350HP Scorpion... I could only find 330HP. However, after talking to Mercruiser, they made/make 350HP for special order... mostly made for, and used in competition tow boats. I think this particular engine I'm buying is a 2014 with a 3 year warranty from Mercruiser.

Yes, the trans assembly is included. Everything is included in the deal including installing and wiring new gauges (we just have to purchase them).


One concern i see is the 350hp/377 scorp has not been built by Merc for 10 years so is it really new? If so, it has been sitting for a while. No glass work would be needed to bolt on a Bravo setup. Did he include a trans assembly? I assume yes but i did not see it mentioned. TA is $2k new. X drive could be found for $5k.

TheSharkGuy
07-08-2015, 02:37 AM
What do you mean it has a new windshield setup?

My biggest pet peeve about my boat is that it doesn't have the newest windshield style... I like the sleek look of not having the chrome framing... I like the all tinted plexi look and am considering switching mine out if the cost isn't outrageous.

Although, I need second opinions because sometimes I like the current windshield with the chrome...


Also, that has a new windshield setup, looks great.

mattyboy
07-08-2015, 07:50 AM
At first I wasn't able to find the 350HP Scorpion... I could only find 330HP. However, after talking to Mercruiser, they made/make 350HP for special order... mostly made for, and used in competition tow boats. I think this particular engine I'm buying is a 2014 with a 3 year warranty from Mercruiser.

Yes, the trans assembly is included. Everything is included in the deal including installing and wiring new gauges (we just have to purchase them).


that sounds like the 383 reman'd stroker they did make it in a 400 hp version there are issues with that motor and reversion also make sure the motor is setup for an I/O fully not just things like the throttle setup make sure the harness and the ecm is also setup otherwise it is a night mare.

the reman'd black scorp that I have seen was nothing but trouble and MERC had to trouble shoot sent a guy from the factory and eventually replaced it then refunded the owner. I would not buy that motor when reliable and reasonably priced big block power can be at in the 400-500 hp a blue scorp is a different story but they haven't made one in years

TheSharkGuy
07-08-2015, 10:23 AM
Thank you for the information. I am going to verify this with the Merc dealer and see exactly which engine he is trying to sell me.


that sounds like the 383 reman'd stroker they did make it in a 400 hp version there are issues with that motor and reversion also make sure the motor is setup for an I/O fully not just things like the throttle setup make sure the harness and the ecm is also setup otherwise it is a night mare.

the reman'd black scorp that I have seen was nothing but trouble and MERC had to trouble shoot sent a guy from the factory and eventually replaced it then refunded the owner. I would not buy that motor when reliable and reasonably priced big block power can be at in the 400-500 hp a blue scorp is a different story but they haven't made one in years

mattyboy
07-08-2015, 10:33 AM
the 400 HP stroker had Merc spec'd CMI headers which are not made to the same spec's that CMI uses for their own product. they had this issue on one of the blue motors the 500 or 525 too. you can't find the 400 scorp for sale anymore they went to a more standard merc center rise exhaust and went to a more mild cam so 350 hp is the rating. SB 350 hp in a 22 is going to put you in low 60s than a 425 hp BB which will be high 60's

TheSharkGuy
07-08-2015, 10:36 AM
The invoice he sent me reads: "6.2L / 377 Scorpion Marine Engine"

I found this one on a mercury website but it says 340HP. The dealer says the one he is selling me tests 350HP at the prop.

http://www.mercurymercruiser.com/mercury-mercruiser/en/products/products.aspx?Model=Scorpion%20377

Thanks again for the help / info...

.

mattyboy
07-08-2015, 10:43 AM
Have you thought about the exhaust outlets most likely the SB will not match up with the BB

here is the 400 with the cmi and the 383 350 hp with merc risers

again I would go with BB and re-use what ever you can

TheSharkGuy
07-08-2015, 10:48 AM
that's a good point. I don't think about all of these things, and I trust the dealer too much.

thanks for the info to look into!


Have you thought about the exhaust outlets most likely the SB will not match up with the BB

here is the 400 with the cmi and the 383 350 hp with merc risers

again I would go with BB and re-use what ever you can

Pat McPherson
07-08-2015, 12:20 PM
The invoice he sent me reads: "6.2L / 377 Scorpion Marine Engine"

I found this one on a mercury website but it says 340HP. The dealer says the one he is selling me tests 350HP at the prop.

http://www.mercurymercruiser.com/mercury-mercruiser/en/products/products.aspx?Model=Scorpion%20377

Thanks again for the help / info...

.

Have you desided to buy a Merc package and replace the drive?
If no, then I suggest you stick with a big block.
I've got the base 502 and the boat runs great.
http://www.1800runsnew.com/newbase-details-NLM.html#502

joseph m. hahnl
07-08-2015, 11:49 PM
what RPM is it making 350 HP? The link for the stressed relieved re-manufactured 502 from Tri Star is a good replacement for a 454. I believe all of the 454 parts would fit on it. Poke around Tri Star's site you'll see they are more than just an engine builder. They are a full service engine machine shop. What sold me on my short block was not just price but quality off parts used and the fact that they internally balanced the engine assembly in house. Also It was bored, decked and lined honed on a CNC. You could never get that machining quality out of a stock Merc AKA GM performance block.:worthy: Or better yet drop this bad boy in there for 1/2 the price of the Merc and watch the look of the blue motor boys when your king cobra goes by them:kingme:
http://www.tristarengines.com/catalog/performance-marine-engines/pro-startm-540-cid-complete-dyno-d-crate-engine-featuring-darttm-big-m-block-and-pro-1-cylinder-heads-marine-series.html

mattyboy
07-09-2015, 09:23 AM
motor mounts may be another area of concern with going to a SB drilling stringers is always a roll of the dice.

TheSharkGuy
07-09-2015, 11:12 AM
I sent pics of the engine well to him and he said he uses the same mounts so that will make it easier.

Another part of this equation is that my father has offered to split the cost if we go with the new scorpion and new out drive package. He is all about the "new" and is really pushing it even though just about EVERY one of you said to go with a rebuilt / crate big block.

You guys sold me on the big block, but the financial help from my father isn't a bad deal either.


motor mounts may be another area of concern with going to a SB drilling stringers is always a roll of the dice.

Pat McPherson
07-09-2015, 01:05 PM
I sent pics of the engine well to him and he said he uses the same mounts so that will make it easier.

Another part of this equation is that my father has offered to split the cost if we go with the new scorpion and new out drive package. He is all about the "new" and is really pushing it even though just about EVERY one of you said to go with a rebuilt / crate big block.

You guys sold me on the big block, but the financial help from my father isn't a bad deal either.

Chevy 350 and 454 blocks use the same Merc bell housing and motor mounts. I have no idea about OMC.

To go from OMC to Merc, your likely going to be filling and drilling new holes in the transome and stringers.

For the exhuast, there may be some sort of off-set adapter to mach the wider spaced thru hole if your using the short Merc risers.

I agree, take Dad's money/help. What's the warrenty on the new package?

TheSharkGuy
07-09-2015, 04:22 PM
3 Year Warranty... let me check the details...

MOP
07-10-2015, 05:58 AM
GM mounts are GM mounts not marinizer specific.

dbleil89
07-10-2015, 08:49 AM
I put a 350 mag directly into my boat that had the 454 bb in it. The exhaust was just 4" rubber exhaust but went right on and didn't have any issues with it. Both were straight from the manifolds to the tips. The mounts dropped right into place. I only had to adjust for the alignment. That was not correct with the bb or the sb until it was adjusted.
The only way the mounts will move is if the omc and merc transom assemblies move the motor forward or backward due to depth difference in the 2 manufacturers. I'm not sure of that will change or not, I'm not very familiar with omc, I do know of a guy who has a 90 mph sunbird with a 45 hp sb and a stock cobra. A few case design upgrades for water flow but internally stock. The guy said that's the only thing he has never had a problem with.

Ed Donnelly
07-10-2015, 09:19 AM
I would love to find out what fuel he uses
90 m.p.h. Out of45 h.p. Is insane...L.O.L. Ed

TheSharkGuy
07-10-2015, 03:03 PM
He must mean 90mph out of 450hp, right?


I would love to find out what fuel he uses
90 m.p.h. Out of45 h.p. Is insane...L.O.L. Ed

dbleil89
07-15-2015, 02:17 PM
Yes 90 out of 450 hp small block. At least he says it's 450. I know it's one of the fastest boats around here with stock internals in a cobra drive. I'm not a big fan of omc but apparently they are pretty strong.

roadtrip se
07-15-2015, 06:59 PM
Yes 90 out of 450 hp small block. At least he says it's 450. I know it's one of the fastest boats around here with stock internals in a cobra drive. I'm not a big fan of omc but apparently they are pretty strong.

Trying to be gentle here. Not possible, unless that thing is a 450HP small block attached to a 2x4.
It takes 650-700HP to pass 90 in a 22 Classic Bravo configuration for comparison purposes. And yes,
the lake is normally full of "80 mph" performance boats that get passed at 65. Seriously.

Ghost
07-15-2015, 08:34 PM
km/h?

joseph m. hahnl
07-15-2015, 10:13 PM
He said it was a Sunbird going 90MPH not a 22 :rolleyes:

dbleil89
07-16-2015, 05:35 PM
I was posting that for a debate. I was trying to get a point that the omc is one heck of an outdrive. Hard to get parts for sure, but they hold up to some power.

The main point is put either a BBC or a SBC in with the omc. Save a boat load of cash and then sell it when ever you want and buy the 40th anniversary when your not upside down in an old boat.

roadtrip se
07-16-2015, 11:10 PM
He said it was a Sunbird going 90MPH not a 22 :rolleyes:

Could be wrong, but I haven't seen a 24 degree by seven Sunbird yet..

osur866
07-17-2015, 01:53 AM
And yes,
the lake is normally full of "80 mph" performance boats that get passed at 65. Seriously.

Oh so true roflmao, I just had a "triple digits" flashback

fysis
07-17-2015, 03:30 PM
Trying to be gentle here. Not possible, unless that thing is a 450HP small block attached to a 2x4.
It takes 650-700HP to pass 90 in a 22 Classic Bravo configuration for comparison purposes. And yes,
the lake is normally full of "80 mph" performance boats that get passed at 65. Seriously.

Completely true. In my case it took a bit over 700 to reach 90 and 800hp to reach 100mph. For the same goals i think it can vary 50hp up or down depending on rigging and how good hull you have. When it comes to speed i hate 3 things. Rumors ,Bull**** and waterspeedos:sweden:

osur866
07-17-2015, 06:19 PM
Not a 22 but it'll take ya about 575-580 to go 90 in an 18.

yeller
07-18-2015, 01:15 PM
At one point you said you were getting a rebuilt 454, but then dad stepped in with $10k for the merc package. What did you finally decide?

joseph m. hahnl
07-18-2015, 11:17 PM
Could be wrong, but I haven't seen a 24 degree by seven Sunbird yet.. Exactly, hence the claim of 90 mph with 450 hp. :shocking:

joseph m. hahnl
07-19-2015, 08:43 AM
Not a 22 but it'll take ya about 575-580 to go 90 in an 18. I think it takes about a 100HP for every 10mph. I used the base line of the my old 270HP 350 Mag to calculate the Phoenix 400's HP in the Minx. It's ball park but gives me an idea of where it is.:biggrin.: But realistically the HP curve is not as important as the torque curve. Which is why a big block in a 22 will always dominate a small block :yes: Now mechanically aspirated engines are more apt to use the HP curve But personally I'm not fond of revving a pushrod motor past 5250RPM :boggled:

roadtrip se
07-19-2015, 11:04 AM
I think it takes about a 100HP for every 10mph. I used the base line of the my old 270HP 350 Mag to calculate the Phoenix 400's HP in the Minx. It's ball park but gives me an idea of where it is.:biggrin.: But realistically the HP curve is not as important as the torque curve. Which is why a big block in a 22 will always dominate a small block :yes: Now mechanically aspirated engines are more apt to use the HP curve But personally I'm not fond of revving a pushrod motor past 5250RPM :boggled:

Torque is king, but the HP to speed result curve is not linear. If it were, I would be running 100+ at will, but I'm not. There are a ton of other factors that impact the performance of these things, other than what is sitting in the engine bay. This is why I always get suspicious of speed claims coming from odd corners. Agree with the displacement discussion, and I really like the Scorp package, as I had one for awhile, in an 18. RPMs? Totally dependent on what kind of components you have inside the block. I spin at way over 5250 with a NA BB 540. Cheers!

Ghost
07-19-2015, 02:06 PM
HP is the criterion for determining WOT speed, but as noted, it's not linear with speed. When up in the 55-75 range, in a 22C, my guess is 10-15HP per additional MPH.

(Torque is essentially irrelevant for WOT speed, but very relevant in the sense that you need a torque curve that allows you to reach speed. A big enough dip in the torque curve would mean you couldn't reach max HP without a push. Given that boats deal with sloppy surface conditions and varying loads, torque and cubes are your friends. Good to have lots of both.)

TheSharkGuy
07-19-2015, 07:33 PM
I need to make the decision this week. I've wasted half the summer!

I still really want the 40th, and I'll get one when I can get the right price... the New Jersey guy with the one for sale at the Marina and listed in the Classifieds never got back to me and I was tired of trying to track him down.

I am leaning toward the "new" stuff and my father chipping in $10G... but that also means he will take it out whenever he wants because he put money into it... I think that's his reason for offering to pay some money, haha.


At one point you said you were getting a rebuilt 454, but then dad stepped in with $10k for the merc package. What did you finally decide?

yeller
07-19-2015, 08:07 PM
I need to make the decision this week. I've wasted half the summer!

Well, you brought it on yourself by asking for opinions. Now the decision making process is even more confusing. :biggrin.:

joseph m. hahnl
07-19-2015, 09:45 PM
HP is the criterion for determining WOT speed, but as noted, it's not linear with speed. When up in the 55-75 range, in a 22C, my guess is 10-15HP per additional MPH.

(Torque is essentially irrelevant for WOT speed, but very relevant in the sense that you need a torque curve that allows you to reach speed. A big enough dip in the torque curve would mean you couldn't reach max HP without a push. Given that boats deal with sloppy surface conditions and varying loads, torque and cubes are your friends. Good to have lots of both.) Torque is relevant to any engine running at or below 5250. Most stock Merc motors run in the torque band not the HP band.

Ghost
07-19-2015, 10:33 PM
Lol, I stand by every word. :)

the HP/torque war is neverending and likely is pretty silly. Prompted for a recommendation, I suggest big cubes along with HP.

CHACHI
07-20-2015, 06:56 AM
I am leaning toward the "new" stuff and my father chipping in $10G... but that also means he will take it out whenever he wants because he put money into it... I think that's his reason for offering to pay some money, haha.

As long as he brings it back full, I don't see a problem with that.

Ken

TheSharkGuy
07-20-2015, 11:25 AM
That WOULD be nice :cool!:


As long as he brings it back full, I don't see a problem with that.

Ken

Pat McPherson
07-20-2015, 03:08 PM
I need to make the decision this week. I've wasted half the summer!


So are you going with the Merc 350HP/383 Bravo pacakge?:yes:

TheSharkGuy
07-20-2015, 04:09 PM
I'm leaning towards that since my father has offered $10K towards the new package. New sounds nice! I'll make my final decision by this weekend!

I am still looking for a 40th Anniversary in the $30K Range. One with a trailer sold for $28K about a month ago. The two listed now are at $40K and that's too much for an 11 year old Classic. These boats don't appreciate...


So are you going with the Merc 350HP/383 Bravo pacakge?:yes:

Pat McPherson
07-21-2015, 08:59 AM
I am still looking for a 40th Anniversary in the $30K Range. One with a trailer sold for $28K about a month ago. The two listed now are at $40K and that's too much for an 11 year old Classic. These boats don't appreciate...

No way would I put $20K into a boat if I was planning to sell and by another.

If this isn't the boat you want for at least the next 3 years, I would recomend you sell it. You'll never even come close to getting your $ back from the new engine drive package.

Sell her as is, or drop in a reman longblock then use until she sells.

TheSharkGuy
07-21-2015, 10:50 AM
Oh, if I go with that new package, I would keep it for the next 10 years.

IF a 40th Anniv pops up before hand, in my price range, I might jump on it and sell my boat as is, or get it running for as little as possible and sell it.



No way would I put $20K into a boat if I was planning to sell and by another.

If this isn't the boat you want for at least the next 3 years, I would recomend you sell it. You'll never even come close to getting your $ back from the new engine drive package.

Sell her as is, or drop in a reman longblock then use until she sells.

Pat McPherson
07-29-2015, 10:19 AM
Update Please.

TheSharkGuy
08-04-2015, 10:07 AM
I've unexpectedly had to go to Chicago twice in the past 3 weeks for work, and had a trip and a wedding as well, so I have been so busy I can't think straight. It's unfortunate because I was so excited to enjoy the Donzi all summer, and now it 3/4 over and it's still not ready. I think I am going to go the small block route because of my father's offer to split the cost. He is all about "new". Hopefully we can get it down to Florida in the next week or so, and then it's a week turn-around. Still looking out for a last second 40th in my price range.

ON A DIFFERENT TOPIC... do any of you all know about Velocity boats? My father is looking at a rare Velocity 320 outboard model (only 3 made) that is located near us. He likes the outboard setup on that boat. I don't really like the look, but he does.

https://richmond.craigslist.org/boa/5106244081.html


Update Please.

yeller
08-04-2015, 01:03 PM
ON A DIFFERENT TOPIC... do any of you all know about Velocity boats? My father is looking at a rare Velocity 320 outboard model (only 3 made) that is located near us. He likes the outboard setup on that boat. I don't really like the look, but he does.

https://richmond.craigslist.org/boa/5106244081.htmlThey are suppose to be great rough water boats for their size. I was looking at couple smaller Velocity's years ago. I'd be a bit cautious about the seller when he says he can get a 15mph gain with just a prop change.

AFAIK, Steve Stepp is the original owner/designer of Velocity Boats, but I thought he sold the company years ago. I could be wrong. I'd call the company and see if you can talk to Steve. If he's still there, find out what he did to the boat.

Pat McPherson
08-04-2015, 01:43 PM
ON A DIFFERENT TOPIC... do any of you all know about Velocity boats? My father is looking at a rare Velocity 320 outboard model (only 3 made) that is located near us. He likes the outboard setup on that boat. I don't really like the look, but he does.

https://richmond.craigslist.org/boa/5106244081.html

I owned a 1999 280 (26') for 5 years. The boat was pretty fast (65mph) even with only a 415HP/502. The pad bottom with 24deg V worked vary well, better ride than a step bottom 29' Fountain IMHO.
Steve Stepp sold Velocity then bought the name back at some point. I spoke to Steve and his right hand man, Ken, a number of times during ownership (2007-2011) of my 280 Velocity.

TheSharkGuy
08-04-2015, 03:31 PM
Great info guys, thanks!

I called the seller a little while ago, and briefly spoke to him (before reading these replies). He said that Steve Stepp sold Velocity but still works for the company in a specialty/consulting role. The current owner took the boat to Velocity for a look over. Steve Stepp personally came in and worked on the boat himself. Repaired a small crack in the back and other work that is documented... signed a picture taken with the boat, etc.

I don't know much about Velocity, but I have been doing some research. The boat is only about 40 minutes away from our house, so we are going to check it out next weekend.

Pat McPherson
09-14-2015, 01:34 PM
New Engine and Drive for 22C ??

Velocity Purchase?

TheSharkGuy
10-07-2015, 04:33 PM
I'm back to give an update! It was a busy September.

Regarding the Donzi... my father ended up getting a good deal on and buying the Velocity, so his attention is there. I think I am going to go ahead and have my local mechanic put a rebuilt 502 in that he has in his shop. I'll have him do it this winter so it's ready for the summer. He's excited to possibly do the project, and will give me a fair price, so I'm gonna go that route.

Regarding the Velocity. WOW. I was skeptical, but I've been nothing but impressed. It's honestly like a jet-ski on steroids. The thing gets up and goes. She likes cruising at around 55 and will get up to 75 easily... all trimmed out and on smooth water, she will creep up to 80. We've taken her out in very rough conditions and it has handled everything well. I've loved the performance so far. It's a little strange seeing this type of boat with outboards, but it's cool because it's different. I've learned only 3 were made and 2 are outside the US. We talked to Steve Stepp- he's a great guy. WITH THAT BEING SAID, I WANT THAT DONZI UP AND RUNNING FOR NEXT SUMMER! The Velocity is awesome, but that 22 Donzi is cool...

Attached are a few pictures I've taken...

83089830908309183092


New Engine and Drive for 22C ??

Velocity Purchase?

yeller
10-07-2015, 10:40 PM
That Velociy looks bad ass with the 3 OB's on it! It's more than cool that you could talk to the guy that designed the boat. :yes:

I think in the long run, you'll be glad it turned out this way. No one else will have money into your boat and the boat will be yours, and only yours. Plus you can always borrow the ol' man's boat, so it's kind of like having two. :biggrin.:

Greg Guimond
10-07-2015, 10:58 PM
Serious Porta-Bracket on that. :yes: