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Gerk
03-11-2015, 02:09 PM
I am working on a 200 HP interceptor engine out of a '66 18' with Holman Moody.
I cannot find much info on the engine.
What ford is it?
Any and all info on this engine would be great as I will be tearing down and rebuilding when it gets slightly warmer.
I'd like to have all my gaskets and info beforehand.

Was this a good engine, or a good candidate for a swap?

I would like to keep up with my buddys 1977 18' with rebuilt 350 Marine Power and 270 drive. (actually beat him)

Thanks all

mattyboy
03-11-2015, 04:37 PM
do you have any serial numbers off the motor that might help. In general the early interceptors were 260 or 289 ci motors usually the 200 hp was the 289

what drive does it have an Eaton or a Volvo?


if you are looking for originality and performance isn't your driving force than just rebuild it as is and hope you don't have issues finding the bolt on parts water pumps and plumbing parts a 200 hp ford is not going to come anywhere near a 350 boat


Fords are expensive and go fast parts are hard to come by


I would think Chevy and you can build a nice 350 hp motor without breaking the bank again this option depends on what drive you have

joseph m. hahnl
03-11-2015, 06:50 PM
Found this :kingme:

The 289 2v in 1966 had:
200hp@4400
282ft*lbs@2400
9.3:1 CR
52.5-55.6cc Combustion Chamber Volume
.016 Piston to Deck Clearance
1.6 Compression Height Pistons
5.155 Connecting Rods

Like Matty said hard pressed to take on a SBC 350 with a minimum of 260HP out of the box. Roller Cam MPI Vortec Mag 350s' are about 300 HP out of the box.


The 289 seems to have tiny combustion chambers with very low compression to work with. You can get 425 to 475 HP with flow mods but the HP gain is way above 5000 rpm more like 7000. To get more peak torque, you need to bump up the CR and cylinder pressure . I think a mild stroke, domed pistons, a large combustion chamber/ large runner aluminum head. with a 270 cam would bring it into the running.

Gerk
03-11-2015, 06:59 PM
I will have to get back with you all on the serial numbers when I get to the boat.

I agree with originality and to swap the engine out would hurt the value, however would a 351 swap in easily into this application?
I have one available to me. I can always keep the Interceptor for when and "IF" I ever decide to sell it.

I love the 351W. Ive got one in my Chris Craft XK22, XK19, and my Dan Arena XL21. Engines are great in my opinion. Old faithful
I had the 289 in my Formula Jr, but it had the Eaton Drive. I only got about 27MPH at high elevation.

This Donzi has the Volvo drive

turbo2256
03-11-2015, 08:15 PM
These days ford and chevy cost about the same to build. Marine parts though could be a bit tougher to find.

joseph m. hahnl
03-11-2015, 09:43 PM
You could build the 289 as a 331 or a 347. But a 351 on hand makes things easy on the wallet:yes:.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlBxHSoiez4

woobs
03-11-2015, 11:29 PM
You could use a "modern" 87-93 5.0 HO roller block and stroke it to a 347. Physically it would look the same. The Interceptor exhaust is a weak point (and difficult to replace if it gets cracked). You could put that in a box to stay with the boat and use a better set up. Hi -Tek makes a great exhaust. SBF Internals are no problem and there are several intakes available. This could easily be a 300+ HP motor that is 100 lbs. lighter, narrower and shorter than a SBC. The only tricky part is finding the right camshaft for the application... it's out there, just gotta find it)

http://www.hitekmarine.com.au/ford.htm

81668

Gerk
03-11-2015, 11:43 PM
Thank you all for the help. Been great reading these.

The exhaust on the engine in there is aluminum Holman Moody water jackets in good shape

mattyboy
03-12-2015, 01:50 PM
original power is not going to add much to value in a windsor anyway if it was an fe, mopar or daytona maybe. general condition is more a factor as is bang for the buck when all things being equal more is more. two boats in the general same condition one having a 300hp worked ford or one having a crate sbc at 300 hp isn't going to be that much different in value


If you decide to stay Ford modernize go to a total modern setup an omc or volvo setup post 1985 with side motor mounts and modern water pumps this way getting parts and adding goodies like power steering are easier.
Do not go above stock power with the HM logs get at least center risers or as woobs said the hiteks are very nice . you may look at these also for exhausts



http://www.cpperformance.com/p-13919-small-block-ford-with-aluminum-riser.aspx

you are going to need center risers if you go to the 351w that will give you some plumbing room for the exhaust outlets with logs you'll be to close to the transom to make up the difference in width and height of the motor from a 289. being a 66 it is a barrelback so you should have hatch clearence

I have done the ford thing twice have made a promise to myself never to go that route again, well in a boat anyway.


never say never you never know what may come along


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6_-qwKRMs4

Gerk
03-20-2015, 11:28 AM
I am going to start taking some parts off of the engine today.

Where am I looking for the serial numbers?

The boat itself is a 66. #18-57

mattyboy
03-20-2015, 12:57 PM
the interceptors usually had the serial number on the timing chain cover. there should also be casting numbers on the heads under the valve covers and also on the block near the starter

the interceptor serial numbers usualy start with E then a W or T and 92L that will tell you what you have if nothings been touched

Gerk
03-20-2015, 01:34 PM
So the ad said that it was a 351 when i bought it, however seeing the 200HP on the valve cover, I assumed it had to be the Interceptor 200 which was stock at the time.

I am still new to this, but is this a 351 with stock 200hp valve covers?
Under the covers read 351 and WF8170681709

mattyboy
03-20-2015, 02:28 PM
well that answers the question on if it has been touched.

many of the parts on a 302 and 351 windsor are inter changeable the difference is the stroke so heads can be re-used
so now look at the block by the starter and see if there is any numbers on a plate on the bell housing

my guess is over it's 45 years the the motor or some of it's parts have been replaced

Gerk
03-20-2015, 03:13 PM
I am not finding one single raised number on that block. Unless it is behind the starter, I can't find anything.

Oh well

Does the 351 heads rule out everything but the 351 and 302?

Thanks Matt and everyone else for your help. It is great

mattyboy
03-20-2015, 03:30 PM
The bore was the same on the 289 302 352 windsors so it could be one of the 3 the 351w is taller and had a different firing order


the 289 302 had one firing order 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8




and the newer 5.0 liter and 351w had a different order

1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8

you might be able to tell by the wires number 1-4 are on the left looking at the motor from the back seat 1 is closest to you and 4 is by the transom 5-8 are on the right side 5 being the closest to you and 8 by the transom


<span style="color: rgb(37, 37, 37); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 22.3999996185303px;">
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T_OKcAxp-I

mattyboy
03-20-2015, 03:35 PM
Judging by the layout of the wires in your pic and where 1 is usually is on the dist it looks like you have the 1-5 firing order which means it is the 289/older 302 firing order

but that is not solid has the wires look to be pulled off

Gerk
03-20-2015, 03:39 PM
The firing order casted into the intake is the 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8 but cant that intake also be used on the 289 and 302?

The plug wires were cut or disconnected when I got it.

I am going to assume for now that it is a 351 and when I eventually remove it, I will be able to get a much better idea.

mattyboy
03-20-2015, 03:58 PM
no the intake is different on the 351 cause the V is taller due to increased stroke so the top of the motor is wider.

The intake could be a newer 5.0 intake that has the newer firing order on it? that would fit on an older 302 wow that could be a PITA don't ask how I know that

sorry until you pull it and get the casting codes off the block you won't know what you have

my boat had a 1968 289 and it was replaced with a newer 1987 5.0 long block and all the tinware was taken off the older motor.

when you pull the motor and pull the starter you should be able to get a casting number

mattyboy
03-20-2015, 04:02 PM
wait just remembered on a 302 or 289 the lower bolt for the t stat housing needs and open/box end wrench to get it off it hits the plate or water pump on the 351w the motor is taller and that bolt you can get a socket on

Gerk
03-20-2015, 04:03 PM
Gotcha.
Thanks Matt.

I'll keep trying

Appreciate it

Gerk
03-20-2015, 06:24 PM
OK, so here is what I found.

C90E - 6015 - B and then smaller 9A3

That is what it looks like to me.

You be the judge. And what do they mean?


Thank you

mattyboy
03-20-2015, 06:39 PM
as I read it it is a 1969 289 block made on Jan 3 of 69 which means it most likely was a 302 in that time frame the 289 was phased out in favor of the 302 some parts still had 289 stamped on them

http://www.ebay.com/gds/Decode-your-65-66-67-68-69-70-Mustang-Engine-Block-/10000000003222033/g.html

Gerk
03-20-2015, 06:56 PM
Thats a bummer right??

Should I look into dropping in that ready to go 351?
The HM exhaust should work with it right?

I guess I am more into going fast and reliability than originality. But now it also sounds as if that engine block isn't original anyhow.

Gerk
03-20-2015, 06:59 PM
Matt,
Thank you very much.

That link is awesome
Deciphering the code is very cool

mattyboy
03-20-2015, 07:10 PM
ok so now we know the motor was a replacement this is really quite common many early donzi classics fitted with the eaton drive and 165 200 hp were repowered a few years down the road when the bigger power and stronger drive( the aq 200) were made available. my 67 16 was repowered in 69 BYy HM with a HM 351w and a 250 drive.

is there any evidence of glass work on the transom? the true eaton drive which was weak and did have instances of spinning off the boat had 3 bolts in a triangular pattern and a round cutout

what do the end of the risers look like do they turn down towards the bottom of the boat or do they go straight out towards the transom? that will be a factor for the 351

Gerk
03-20-2015, 07:18 PM
Yes it has been modified somewhat.
I can for sure see that the exhaust has been moved.8171181712

mattyboy
03-20-2015, 09:05 PM
if this is a true 66 and a sharp keeled barrelback I would say there are two choices

drop in the 351w and keep the volvo and be happy with the boat as a low to mid 50s boat

or go the chevy merc route and be a 60 mph with stock power and 70 mph boat with good 383 power

Gerk
03-21-2015, 02:50 AM
At this point, I think I will swap out the engine. It is not original anyhow.

I, however, am not interested in breaking the bank to go 70 MPH.

I am up at high altitude, so I lose a bunch already. My buddy has a '77 with a fresh 350 rebuild with lots of upgrades and Volvo 270. He can't seem to break 52 MPH. All I want to do is beat him in a race and have some reliability. I don't need to go 70, but 60 would be cool.81713

turbo2256
03-21-2015, 09:24 AM
Have to wounder a bit as to what you have there a 302 possibly 289 with 351W heads. If the 302 / 289 with 351W heads would mean realy low compression without different pistons. Also which 351W heads Pn FOR THEM IN ON THE UNDER SIDE OF THE HEAD in the as cast area were the pushrods go through. Might be able to see them with a mirror. Myself would just pull the heads to see whats up.

Easiest way toi tell if its a 351 is to measure across the intake bolts from one head to the other.
iTS NOT ALL THAT EXPENSIVE TO HIT 300 hp WITH A 302. cOME TO THINK ABOUT IT i HAVE A COMPLETE 302 FI out of a OMC package

joseph m. hahnl
03-22-2015, 10:40 AM
Looks like the motor came out of a Fairlane. The only real factor in a 60Mph and a 70Mph engine is compression ratio and cylinder pressure. The advantage of a 383 over a 350 is torque from the longer the stroke and volume of atomization. As soon as you say altitude volume of atomization efficiency goes out the window. Building a engine that can perform well at altitude and resist detonation at sea level can be achieved easily. If you were building a high RPM engine, it doesn't cost any more if you make high or low compression. Obviously that is not your case you basically want to use what's available on hand. My opinion is, use the 351 and later mechanically aspirate it . This would allow you to put the engine in run the boat and upgrade it with the engine in. You also don't need to shell out all the money at once as the boat is running and you can save for the upgrade over a time. The other advantage of mechanical aspiration is you can adjust for low altitude on the trailer. Most would argue you'd need to build an engine to support it, but if you use it for supplemental volume atomization efficiency at altitude you shouldn't need to.:biggrin.:

mattyboy
03-22-2015, 11:53 AM
Doesn't mean the engine is out of a fairlane just means the block was cast at one of the 3 factories that cast blocks for the fairlane . I don't think they ever stamped or casted specific blocks for marine use HM bought motors and used them for both auto and marine apps. The industrial sector too also used ford motors , out of high school I worked on a drill rig that had a 302 has a power for the drilling operations.

The famed marine 427s were motors that didn't pass racing specs and then went to the marine and industrial world.

HM really only provided marinized version of what was available in the auto world at the time. the 69-70 351w were 290 hp just like the car motors at the time they fell in hp from there on 260 250 235 225 hp

yes 300 hp is not all that hard but I would not do it with older end dump risers

johnnywhale
03-22-2015, 02:19 PM
Measure manifold width

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/how-can-you-tell-if-its-a-302-or-351-w.93054/

Gerk
03-23-2015, 01:03 AM
Well I hate to hurt anyone's feelings, but my plan will go as follows.

I am grabbing that 351. I have some SBF aluminum exhaust manifolds.

I will be taking it a bit at a time.

I feel this is a good starting point without spending a bunch of money.

Rebuild the engine that is in there as a side project just for fun and add bits and pieces of performance to the 351 as it goes

Not in this thread, but I will post pics of the restoration. I plan to bust ass on this as it seems like a pretty easy job when the engine is dialed

joseph m. hahnl
03-24-2015, 06:53 PM
That is a super plan:superman: Good luck in your endeavor :kingme:

woobs
03-24-2015, 10:11 PM
Did you ever sell the JR? What about the Hornet?

Gerk
03-24-2015, 11:03 PM
I go through boats a little too fast. This Donzi however, I will be doing right and keeping

The JR is sold and sold pretty close to home. I believe I can buy it back if I want at some point.

The Hornet sold. I only sold it because I figured the parts were going to be a huge nightmare job to collect as it was missing almost all of it.
Funny story on it, the previous owner just found me and has everything it was missing and it has been all rechromed or ready to go. I am really bummed.
I think I will be buying the parts all back anyway.

Anyone need Benchseat Hornet parts??????

boatnut
03-26-2015, 02:12 PM
Sounds like a good project. A couple of comments FYI:

1) Holman & Moody marined several hundred SBF's using Volvo sterndrives. Most of the engines were Ford industrial engines that had a cam that provided good torque from about 2000 to 5000+ rpm, when Ford stopped making this cam, H&M started making it and still has it available. According to a conversation with Lee Holman recently, most of these motors were 302's with 351 heads. Being they were buying approx. 100 per year, Ford allowed them to spec what components they wanted. H&M used the motors as they came from Ford and basically bolted on all of their marine conversion parts.

2) You probably know this but if you want to keep the three hatches unmodified check the height of the 351 carefully, they are taller engines than the 289/302's.