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craigdskilling
02-16-2015, 01:47 PM
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craigdskilling
02-16-2015, 01:58 PM
I thought this would be fun if guys put there boats up and see what we think there worth.So I have a 350 mpi with a whipple charger pushing 550 hp and a Blackhawk drive.Cant tell you top speed, do to I have not run it yet ,what do you guys think it will do. New cam new pistons new everything everthing had to be custom. Also a galvanized duel axel trailer built for a 22 but made for 18 for now,that also has new tires bearings bunks. Now I'm not selling this is for just for fun and your input.Please let's see what people have thanks craig:bonk:

craigdskilling
02-16-2015, 02:13 PM
814818148281483The swim platform is gone and the boat is a 1984 classic.

Ed Donnelly
02-16-2015, 04:09 PM
If it was for sale, this is the perfect time for our south of the border guys
When it is minus 20 outside I would say $18,000 ..Ed

yeller
02-16-2015, 04:31 PM
Nice setup! SBC, Whipple, 550hp, BH drive. :worthy:
I love the whipples. Way cleaner setup than the Procharger.
What speed were you getting with the old motor and BH?
I'm assuming you have 31" props and you left the X dimension stock?

My 22 with 550hp did 86gps first time out with the BH. Never really got a chance to gps it again, so don't know if I could have got more.
81484 81485

Soooo.....how much more speed can an 18 get with the same hp/drive? A stab in the dark.....I'm going to say 93mph.

You'll be max'ing those props out with your hp. You could probably go up an inch, but I'm sure you know how much that would cost. :eek:

I have an extra 100hp now, but won't be able to use it because I'm limited by the props. Sure don't want to spend $5k + for custom props. I've been thinking about changing the gear ratio to 1:36 to take advantage of the extra hp...............but then, I should probably get the thing running 1st. I've already been down 4yrs :boggled:



I'm going to stay clear of valueing someone else's boat. I know mine is worth a whole lot less than I have into it.

craigdskilling
02-16-2015, 08:01 PM
My old set up I was pushing 375 to 400 hp and I was running 27" props and that old heavy swim platform and I was running 75mlp, I tried with my 31" but not enough power to turn them,So I sold the old motor for good $$ and started this journey just so I can spin those damn 31":boggled:.
Yeller your right on the money with y is fast never fast enough.
My drive 1:50 ratio and the the drive is sitting at 17" to center not quite the magic spot but works well.I had the chance to raise it at the time but, I would have to make the hatch even higher and then new motor mounts and goes on and on.I beefed up the stringers and the transom is all new I told the guy to build the hull for 100mlp so that was all done for that.the scoop has a hole cut out under it for air flow.The stainless marine exhaust was specially made to be higher rise and the water will mix at the transom it will almost be like a dry exhaust.I put slip in exhaust silencer in for the police,guy's I have no idea how this thing will sound like cant wait.
Speed I'm hoping to be in the 90's do you think ill be there:drive::crossfing::crossfing:

MDonziM
02-16-2015, 09:01 PM
I'll toss a 92mph guess out there. depends on the x-dim imo. My BH is set at the standard bravo height and with 600-625hp ive only seen 86 mph best but the boat doesn't feel broken loose. I think if my x was up 2-3" it would be 90mph.

Yeller, curious why you mounted your tabs flat...? FYI the 20' cig/bh guys around here used to toast their drives with 1.35 gears, but then they had 80o-850 hp. You have 31" props? I only turn them to 5000 rpm or so.

yeller
02-16-2015, 11:16 PM
Speed I'm hoping to be in the 90's do you think ill be there:drive::crossfing::crossfing:
I'd be shocked if you didn't easily pass 90. :yes:


I'll toss a 92mph guess out there. depends on the x-dim imo. My BH is set at the standard bravo height and with 600-625hp ive only seen 86 mph best but the boat doesn't feel broken loose. I think if my x was up 2-3" it would be 90mph.Couple of things. Are you sure your over 600hp? Maybe you're only about 550~575. That would put you at pretty much the same as mine. Other thing is, mine is an 2004 and I believe the older boats are heavier, which might explain why your speed is the same (with more hp). I'm only guessing my old motor was about 550hp. I based that on the Procharger being good for about 125hp on a 496HO and the fact that CarlC is doing low to mid 80's with a 525 and shorty. I figured I had roughly the same hp as Carl, and the BH gave me a few more mph over the shorty. Maybe I'm wrong and the old motor was making more hp than I thought and I won't gain anything with the new one. Hopefully we'll know this spring.


Yeller, curious why you mounted your tabs flat...? FYI the 20' cig/bh guys around here used to toast their drives with 1.35 gears, but then they had 80o-850 hp. You have 31" props? I only turn them to 5000 rpm or so.I am concerned about the 1:36 gears adding more stress to the drive, that's why I'm only thinking about it right now. For now, I just want to get it running right.
I put my thoughts on tab position in this thread: http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?70381-K-Plane-Mounting

MDonziM
02-19-2015, 07:04 PM
I don't know about weight/layup, I was thinking you have a higher X which would definitely help. You're running 31" props right?

Never had my motor dyno'ed but its supposed to be 625-650hp by specs so I say 600 should be conservative.

craigdskilling
02-19-2015, 08:08 PM
Im not sure if you r talking to me or yeller,but I had mine dyno at 550hp and yes I think my x is a little higher than norm the charger fits very high under the hatch if you look at one of the side shots you see how high that's y had to cut the hatch, also did you guys see that I had to put two of the donzi hatch closers on either side.How much hp can the blackhawks take.thanks craig

MDonziM
02-20-2015, 08:56 AM
Craig- was responding to Yeller from his previous post.

I have seen 2 20' BH Cigs with 750- 800hp but they did break the drives. Like any bravo, durability is determined mostly by throttle response re-entering the water. For me , the bh is great for stability at high speed and most conditions that I want to be out in, but it is limited in rougher water.

- Marshall

yeller
02-20-2015, 03:39 PM
I don't know about weight/layup, I was thinking you have a higher X which would definitely help. You're running 31" props right?
Yes, I have 31's. My X is at the stock position. Don't know if Donzi changed it over the years, so can't say if it's higher than yours.


...also did you guys see that I had to put two of the donzi hatch closers on either side.How much hp can the blackhawks take.thanks craig
I did notice the 2 latches. Were you not comfortable with just the one?

As far as the BH and HP, it's rated about the same as a Bravo.....so you're already over the claimed acceptable power. There are a lot of people running our hp with a Bravo and they are holding out. Of course there are those that break, but there are also those that break with a lot less hp. Like MDonziM said, you just have to careful about airing it out....and don't hammer the throttle.

My cousin has a bit over 600hp in his 22' Cougar Offshore and he has well in excess of 2000 hours on the Bravo and it's never been apart. He even twisted the prop shaft at about 500hrs, but it's still going strong. :biggrin.:

MDonziM
02-20-2015, 05:39 PM
Yeller - pretty sure around 99'/2000' they went up 2" on the x-dim. It might have been around the same time they changed the stringer width for the 496 vs 502 motors, not sure.

craigdskilling
02-21-2015, 10:35 AM
Had to put two on because of the supercharger front lined perfect with the old tie down,also had notch it there for the pulley.

yeller
02-24-2015, 01:32 PM
Yeller - pretty sure around 99'/2000' they went up 2" on the x-dim. It might have been around the same time they changed the stringer width for the 496 vs 502 motors, not sure.I was unaware of that. 2" would definately make a difference, especially with the BH.

younger
02-28-2015, 10:01 PM
87mph optimum.

younger
02-28-2015, 10:08 PM
What rpm on the dyno did it produce 550 hp?

Carl C
03-01-2015, 07:20 AM
Didn't another yellow 22, that I won't mention by name, break a blackhawk at last years AOTH behind a procharged 502?
None of our boats are worth close to what we have into them. To ask what they are worth is asking for bad news ;). That 18 looks good though and will be fast for sure. Yeller, lookin' good too. Now stop getting bogged down with details and git r' done!

craigdskilling
03-01-2015, 03:20 PM
Carl it will be done and I want to hook up with for ride this summer,I have a bud who lives in Windsor and would love to boat around there if its close to you. Younger what are you running now same boat or you back in a donzi. We have to get together this summer guys it's been to long.the boat was 5000rpm we are thinking of putting aluminum heads on it now to help with the heat and a few more hp and weight. I have a new friend on face book who lives in parry sound hope to get a ride for this summer some great boating.Also can we hook back up in the Muskokas this summer.

Carl C
03-01-2015, 07:05 PM
Carl it will be done and I want to hook up with for ride this summer,I have a bud who lives in Windsor and would love to boat around there if its close to you. Younger what are you running now same boat or you back in a donzi. We have to get together this summer guys it's been to long.the boat was 5000rpm we are thinking of putting aluminum heads on it now to help with the heat and a few more hp and weight. I have a new friend on face book who lives in parry sound hope to get a ride for this summer some great boating.Also can we hook back up in the Muskokas this summer.

Sounds good. It's gonna be a great boating summer. Lots of plans. Windsor is right across the river but I can't land or anchor in Canada without a passport. :(

craigdskilling
03-01-2015, 08:19 PM
I can we will work on that come spring cool.:)

younger
03-03-2015, 06:32 PM
I' all up for some running this summer. Doing a full resto on a 21 cougar mtr. Engine, interior, all rigging. Running 225 3liter. Will run a solid 80. Hope to attend the local poker runs, as well do some travelling. Love to run for Bala. If you dynoed 550hp with iron on top of your motor, stick with it. Set it up and run hard.

osur866
03-20-2015, 01:40 AM
Looks great, you should seriously think about doing steering on this! It does appear your engine sits a little higher than mine, we didn't have to notch out for the blower pulley it cleared by about 1/2", I might be running a smaller pully than you tho, what's your max boost? I'm running 6 PSI, my tune has 6 PSI coming in at 4,800 rpm, I'd suggest the alumium heads, if you do go with the bigger 2.02-1.60 valves.

Did you run this on a dyno to get your HP #'s?

Looks nice!
Steve

Greg Guimond
03-20-2015, 08:26 AM
I have a 350 mpi with a whipple charger pushing 550 hp and a Blackhawk drive. Cant tell you top speed, I have not run it yet. what do you guys think it will do. New cam new pistons new everything everthing had to be custom. Please let's see what people have thanks, craig

Craig,
You're running an 85mph - 90mph 18 Classic with a twenty year old BH surface drive and no external hydraulic steering whatsoever?

craigdskilling
03-21-2015, 09:06 AM
Greg I have every intention of putting on steering just not this year and I do now the dangers of running at those speeds with out it but Im not sure were you are going with the 20 year old bh. I still can get steering for it from cp, I have talked to Rick from cp that has all ready to go from Ziegler I was shocked that he could still get the wing plate.The money that has gone into this boat to make it safe was my first priority like the hull the stringers transom was all beefed up to support the speeds it might go. But back to the drive what do you mean by 20 year old stuff it's no good.I bought the drive with few hours on it 5 years ago from out west,and these drive's are very solid at high speeds if you have ever driven one.Thanks craig:confused:

Greg Guimond
03-21-2015, 09:47 AM
I'm sure that your specific drive is in excellent shape Craig but anything that is 20 years old could present a surprise when behind high horsepower. I spent 4 days in the ICU when my steering broke at speed. Getting thrown out of a boat at 50-60 is one thing. Whether a BH or any drive, getting spit out at 80 is a far different deal. The risks we each take are a part of our past time as adults. God knows I still take far too many.

yeller
03-21-2015, 03:01 PM
I don't think he's any more susceptible to breakage because of his drive. New drives break all the time too. As far as steering goes............I'm not saying it's not needed...but there isn't anywhere near the same forces on the steering with a dual prop as opposed to a single.......and hydraulic hoses can break too.

Just stirrin' the pot. :biggrin.:

osur866
03-21-2015, 07:23 PM
I don't think he's any more susceptible to breakage because of his drive. New drives break all the time too. As far as steering goes............I'm not saying it's not needed...but there isn't anywhere near the same forces on the steering with a dual prop as opposed to a single.......and hydraulic hoses can break too.

Just stirrin' the pot. :biggrin.:

Agreed on drive breakage, also somewhat agree on the dual prop and forces, however strongly disagree on steering, if that cable breaks at speed that drive will flip flop back and forth on it's own, a hydraulic system when breaks will hold the drive at the last place it was when the hose broke, ask me how I know about this. The boat needs steering, I personally wouldn't run the boat past mid 60's without it that's just me, I did the steering first then added the additional power after the boat was ready for it. My .02

craigdskilling
03-22-2015, 09:41 AM
So when I do the steering I'm thinking only single ram, can I add another ram later down the road if need be.

asur I too am running 6 pounds of boost I called my guy to find out.And we talked about doing heads down the road but to run it for now.

So I got a new go pro for Xmas from my wife and was wondering when I do my first outing with the boat I will be filming everthing, where should I mount this front looking back or back looking forward or have someone hold it.i bet there will be a cool rouster tale coming out the back.thanks guys for all the input feel the love :)

yeller
03-23-2015, 03:32 PM
No problem adding a 2nd ram later. 2nd ram is simply plumbed in parallel (but reverse) with the 1st ram.
Check the Instruction section at cp performance for a diagram.

FWIW: The wingplate on my BH is for a Bravo. The BH doesn't have the bolts for the rear of the wingplate, but at 1/2" thick S/S, it doesn't need it. There was very minor interference at the back of the plate, but a small amount of grinding allowed it to clear the drive.

craigdskilling
03-23-2015, 06:51 PM
WOW that's clean and shinny.:cool!:

Ghost
03-23-2015, 09:46 PM
So when I do the steering I'm thinking only single ram, can I add another ram later down the road if need be.

asur I too am running 6 pounds of boost I called my guy to find out.And we talked about doing heads down the road but to run it for now.

So I got a new go pro for Xmas from my wife and was wondering when I do my first outing with the boat I will be filming everthing, where should I mount this front looking back or back looking forward or have someone hold it.i bet there will be a cool rouster tale coming out the back.thanks guys for all the input feel the love :)

Suction cup mount, move it around and take lots of shots. :)

yeller
05-12-2015, 01:06 PM
Yeller - pretty sure around 99'/2000' they went up 2" on the x-dim. It might have been around the same time they changed the stringer width for the 496 vs 502 motors, not sure.I finally checked to see exactly how deep my BH sits. I leveled the bottom of the boat, then leveled the drive. The black line at the back of the front prop is the prop shaft centerline. As you can see, the prop shaft is about 1/2" above the transom bottom. That is the height Merc spec'd for the the BH. I was surprised to find out it is actually that high. The BH always looked like it was set up properly on my boat to work as a true surface piercing drive, but looks can be deceiving, so I always assumed I was below the transom bottom.
So now I know why the BH works so well on my boat, when others have not had the same results. I remember MOP did not like the BH on his 22', but his X would have been lower, so the results were not what I've experienced.

yeller
05-12-2015, 04:25 PM
To clarify BH height, I should have mentioned the "level" in the pic is up against the bottom of the boat.

Ed Donnelly
05-12-2015, 07:26 PM
Looks like the drive can go down another inch or so..Ed

Just Say N20
05-12-2015, 08:10 PM
I thought that Younger determined that you want the bottom of the gear case level with the bottom so the gear case doesn't produce lift and force the bow down.

yeller
05-13-2015, 01:09 AM
Looks like the drive can go down another inch or so..EdNot so Ed. I am actually still too low.


I thought that Younger determined that you want the bottom of the gear case level with the bottom so the gear case doesn't produce lift and force the bow down.Yes, Younger is correct.

I was sure I read somewhere that a good starting point (for height) is to have the prop shaft 1/2" above the bottom of the transom...but of course now that I look for it, I can't find it. I believe I was thinking of a post I saved of DonTamm's (who use to be on this site). Don was told by Gary Meisenberg Sr. at Performance Marine that the bottom of the torpedo should be even to 1/2" above the transom bottom on his 18' Classic. For those that don't know, Gary was involved in the development for the BH (as well as the Bravo's).

From the Merc service bulletin, "The Blackhawk Drive Unit uses an “X” - Dimension that is 2-1/2 inches higher than the standard dimension used for the Bravo One Drive Unit (See “Transom Cutout” section in the Power Package Installation Manual for further information)." I don't have the "Transom Cutout", but based on what I could find, I believe the X dimension was 13 9/16".

My 2004 is at 14 1/2 which means I'm still 1 1/2 too low.

yeller
06-01-2015, 01:16 AM
Greg I have every intention of putting on steering.... I still can get steering for it from cp, I have talked to Rick from cp that has all ready to go from Ziegler I was shocked that he could still get the wing plate.

Craig, as an FYI; here's where I had to grind the Bravo wingplate to fit the BH.
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This is why I had to grind it.
82222

I just recently removed my drive and saw the wingplate was making minor contact with the top of the cover, so I've since done a bit more grinding on the wingplate.
82223