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gcarter
08-18-2014, 10:15 AM
I recently posted I was unable to get the Testa Rossa engine started.
I mean the starter doesn't work. I was doubly frustrated because I
had a local auto electrical shop rebuild the starter, including a new
solenoid.
Recently, there have been several folks having similar problems, and
of course, the answer is always check the ground, the slave solenoid,
and the starter solenoid.
So, that''s what I've been doing. Finally, after checking the entire starting
circuit, I ran a #10 wire directly from the Switch post on the solenoid to
the positive post of the battery. No Joy! It barely makes a sound when
I touched the other end of the #10 wire to the positive post of the battery.
So, ......I tried to remove the solenoid, but while the outer of the two
bolts is easily removable, due to larger than normal shape of the Dart
block, the inner bolt isn't accessable w/the starter on the engine.
When I installed the starter, I unfortunately used the original hex head
bolts. While the inner bolt is easily accessible, and it is removed, the
outer bolt virtually touches the flywheel dust cover and I can't get a socket
on it. The position of the hex head of the bolt precludes me from getting
a good grip w/an end wrench (I tried).
I understand the solution to this whole problem is to use ARP small diameter
12 point bolts, and I've ordered some, but here I am w/a seemingly
unsolvable problem, short of removing the engine.
I really don't want to remove the engine again (although I really only
need to raise it about 12"), it's still not easy to do.
Any suggestions?

Ed Donnelly
08-18-2014, 02:02 PM
Can you get thin wall sockets down south?
If not, I can ship you one..Ed

Conquistador_del_mar
08-18-2014, 02:16 PM
George,
Can you die grind anything that would allow you to get a socket on it?

mattyboy
08-18-2014, 02:20 PM
George have you tried to jump the starter directly with the starter cable to the battery + it's gonna spark so be careful

hardcrab
08-18-2014, 02:33 PM
when I need a thin wall socket, a 1/4" drive will usually work. You need to get the Craftsman so you can swap 'em for new when you break 'em (because you shouldn't have used 1/4" drive) - start with a least one extra socket

CHACHI
08-18-2014, 02:37 PM
George, what if you ground away say 45 degrees of the socket, open up a portion of the circumfrence of the socket.

Would that give you enough clearance against the dust shield?

Ken

gcarter
08-18-2014, 08:32 PM
Ed suggested freezing the bolt w/liquid Nitrogen....but the bolt is about 4" long.
Also, grinding on an offset closed end wrench.
No more time today to try any of these ideas, including some vice grips which I couldn't get on the bolt head.
There're about 6 or 7 screws holding on the dust cover. The hard part is the screw heads are in from the back side of the flywheel cover. If I can get the dust cover off, there's no more problem.

joseph m. hahnl
08-18-2014, 09:54 PM
George. Just take the flywheel shield cover off :biggrin.: It's a pita but can be done :yes:

BUIZILLA
08-19-2014, 08:06 AM
are you sure the starter is bad? :confused:

gcarter
08-19-2014, 11:26 AM
are you sure the starter is bad? :confused:

Jim, I'm sure the solenoid is bad as it won't engage. I can't remove the inboard bolt of the solenoid w/it it on the engine.
The Dart block has extra material around the cylinders which eliminates any space between the two.

DONZI
08-19-2014, 12:42 PM
The things to come to mind are you crossed the big terminal on starter to the inside toward engine terminal with jump wire or small screwdriver and no click with a fully charged batt..

Is it possible also the drive is stuck out and engaged and then you would rotate engine back forth manually at balancer to try and free then requiring starter shimming to prevent re- occurence.

Any way to trim shield back with air cut off tool ? Proably not enough room, so banging a 12 point thin wall socket on working upside down ain't fun either unless ya know a really skinny guy to get down under.

gcarter
08-19-2014, 01:23 PM
The things to come to mind are you crossed the big terminal on starter to the inside toward engine terminal with jump wire or small screwdriver and no click with a fully charged batt..

Is it possible also the drive is stuck out and engaged and then you would rotate engine back forth manually at balancer to try and free then requiring starter shimming to prevent re- occurence.

Any way to trim shield back with air cut off tool ? Proably not enough room, so banging a 12 point thin wall socket on working upside down ain't fun either unless ya know a really skinny guy to get down under.

No, it's not engaged. It never had power to it until the other day. It hasn't engaged, or turned. New engine, and rebuilt starter.
I sure should have tried the starter before I installed it.
I ordered a high torque mini, should be here any time. I just have to get this one off.

Conquistador_del_mar
08-19-2014, 01:32 PM
No, it's not engaged. It never had power to it until the other day. It hasn't engaged, or turned. New engine, and rebuilt starter.
I sure should have tried the starter before I installed it.
I ordered a high torque mini, should be here any time. I just have to get this one off.

Excellent! I was going to suggest a high torque mini starter, but I didn't know if they were made for marine use. I have used them in performance car engine setups with great results.

mattyboy
08-19-2014, 02:54 PM
George my point was most starters get there ground from the block if the case is not making a good bond to the block like fresh paint in the way it ain't going to work not sure if the solenoid needs a ground to work but mine is bolted to the back of the bell housing
That's why I asked if touching the starter cable to the battery it should crank

gcarter
08-19-2014, 03:42 PM
George my point was most starters get there ground from the block if the case is not making a good bond to the block like fresh paint in the way it ain't going to work not sure if the solenoid needs a ground to work but mine is bolted to the back of the bell housing
That's why I asked if touching the starter cable to the battery it should crank

Matty, that's a good point and this one did have a ground tied to a ground stud screwed into the block just in front of the starter.
The starter itself grounds to the block through the bare bolt holes and mounting bolts, but not the mounting face which is painted.

gcarter
08-19-2014, 03:43 PM
Some good news, I got it out!
I'll post some pics soon.

mike o
08-19-2014, 03:48 PM
:yippie:

gcarter
08-19-2014, 05:16 PM
I did 2 things to break loose the bolt. I had previously tried to get a long flat blade screwdriver between the bolt and dust cover to increase the available space. Today I found a longer screwdriver, drove it in w/a small hammer and finally the dust cover bent a little.
The other thing I did concerned one of Ed's ideas (it could be what Chachi was referring to also) . I found an old rusty offset box end wrench and ground the outboard end until it was pretty thin. I was able to get it completely on the bolt head and it broke loose.
Of course it's still a slow process since I could only turn it 1/6th of a turn.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=80545&d=1408482948


http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=80546&d=1408482974

gcarter
08-19-2014, 05:24 PM
Excellent! I was going to suggest a high torque mini starter, but I didn't know if they were made for marine use. I have used them in performance car engine setups with great results.

Bill, here's the starter I bought;

http://www.ebay.com/itm/380464261079?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTAwMFgxMDAw/$T2eC16R,!zUE9s38+HL3BQM-2WJkO!~~60_57.JPG

gcarter
08-19-2014, 05:29 PM
When I disassembled the old 454, there was no shim, or shims, between the starter and block, so I reassembled it the same way w/the original (but rebuilt) starter.
Can anyone tell me a simple and quick and easy way to determine if shims are required?

BUIZILLA
08-19-2014, 06:44 PM
GC, that's not a high torque mini starter you bought..

as far as clearance.. get a standard 2" paper clip and use one leg of it to measure the go/no go clearance in the teeth pocket when the starter is mounted, and the drive extended... in your case, that may prove impossible

DONZI
08-19-2014, 07:07 PM
Glad ya got it out !
Put a lil grease on the shaft of the new one also where the gear drive rides for saving problems down the rode on lay up.

Also Parnell and myself had similiar issues with fitment on our BBC's a few yrs back and i'll be damned if i can remember, but he might. It required a lil custom work on starter fitment.:bonk:

gcarter
08-19-2014, 07:27 PM
GC, that's not a high torque mini starter you bought..

Jim, can you explain the differences?
What did I buy?
It does seem to be a lot smaller.
Can you or someone help?

gcarter
08-19-2014, 07:42 PM
Is this a high torque mini starter?

http://d3d71ba2asa5oz.cloudfront.net/13000024/images/sdr0031-l-3.jpg

BUIZILLA
08-19-2014, 07:47 PM
yup, kinda........... but a true mini starter has a different nose

I bought the one from GM for the Critter over 10 years ago and it's still on there

mike o
08-19-2014, 09:05 PM
Mr C, did you bench test the one your just removed. Just for chits and grins before you :wrench: so you wont go through this hopefully again, with another unit?

:)

rr1048
08-20-2014, 12:34 AM
80552
I have used a Hi Torque Marine mini starter for years and it has worked flawlessly. Another major advantage of a mini starter is they are lighter than conventional starters and will be easier to hold in place and install.

Good luck with the installation, it will definitely test your patience.

CHACHI
08-20-2014, 06:48 AM
Congrats George, and as Mike O suggested, bench test it first.

Ken

Ed Donnelly
08-20-2014, 08:04 AM
Great to hear you got it out.
Better hurry now as I will be there in 6 months for my ride. L.O.L. ..Ed

tmdog
08-20-2014, 09:50 AM
For starters, I use DB elec. Cheapest around.

http://www.dbelectrical.com/c-2855-57-liter.aspx

johnnywhale
08-20-2014, 09:56 AM
The one you bought is a GM permanent magnet starter, it does not use field coils.

gcarter
08-21-2014, 02:32 PM
So, I ordered a high torque mini starter in addition to the one pictured in post #19.
I now have them both, and instead of the permanent magnet starter pictured in #19,
I now seem to have 2 high torque minis from 2 different sources.
Below is a picture of them both, the stickers proclaiming they are each marine starters.
I bought a shim kit from NAPA, and do my best to make this all work.
I definately like the size and weight.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=80567&d=1408645907

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=80568&d=1408645946

Conquistador_del_mar
08-22-2014, 02:22 AM
George,
I think you will like having the torque of the mini starter even if it turns the motor over a little slower which I believe they do.

Scott Pearson
08-22-2014, 05:41 AM
I think George is probably more pissed that he has to mix more paint and make the new one as nice as the old one:eek:. Glad it worked out...looking good!

Ed Donnelly
08-22-2014, 08:57 AM
I think George is probably more pissed that he has to mix more paint and make the new one as nice as the old one:eek:. Glad it worked out...looking good!

George's world is rosey as in red. Paint something? That is what George dreams about..Ed

gcarter
08-22-2014, 11:04 AM
I actually need to paint a few things, so I'll use the black painted piece to paint and use, and the other as a spare.

MOP
08-23-2014, 03:26 PM
George looking at the photo of the starter that you removed it to me is pretty obvious it was not grounded, notice how nice the mating surfaces on the new starter are shiny bare metal yours are painted. $50 says your old starter is just fine!

gcarter
08-23-2014, 07:06 PM
George looking at the photo of the starter that you removed it to me is pretty obvious it was not grounded, notice how nice the mating surfaces on the new starter are shiny bare metal yours are painted. $50 says your old starter is just fine!

Phil, what you're saying is true as far as it goes, but it grounds through the bolt holes (which are bare metal) and bolts. Remember they are knurled to keep everything centered and have lots of contact area.

MOP
08-31-2014, 01:21 PM
So the same fate does not befall any others that read this, it is well known the GM starters do not always ground properly through the bolts. The mating surfaces must be clean and paint free, the only proper grounding is through the starter to block contact not the bolts. All the articles below indicate that! It is such a bioch to swap a starter it pays to follow the basic rules of installation.

https://www.motorstate.com/images/InstructionSheets/ALL80520_SB_Chevy_Mini_Starter.pdf

http://www.pozziracing.com/camaro_electrical.htm

http://www.powermastermotorsports.com/025___GMMiniSta.pdf

http://www.onallcylinders.com/2012/04/25/starter-sleuth-solving-common-aftermarket-starter-problems/