PDA

View Full Version : Cig 20 Outboard????



MOJO1
08-15-2014, 01:31 AM
Well it has been awhile....I am looking at this supposed cig 20 1974, just have pictures at this point and she may have been posted here before. Seller says she has a Larsen HIN #....not CRT.
He did some research and thinks Kiekhaefer owned Larsen and may have done a deal with Aronow to build a few of these as race boats?? Interior looks kinda sketchy to me....especially the dash. looking at the stern the hull rakes are quite different than say a classic 22 but then I really don't have any cig 20 experience, any of you have any ideas or is this a knockoff?

Thanks,

Ghost
08-15-2014, 01:38 AM
I think Cig 20s have behaved very well with big blocks. If so, I'd be concerned an outboard would not be well balanced. Would want evidence it wasn't a flawed concept before buying. Antbody know?

Greg Guimond
08-15-2014, 07:13 AM
I am looking at this supposed cig 20 1974. Seller says she has a Larsen HIN.

I have info on these somewhere that I will dig out tonight. Putting the ID issue aside for a moment, what year is the that motor and how much does he want for the package?

seano
08-15-2014, 11:51 AM
certainly looks like a cig 20 to me - but likely a splash with no CRT HIN. The cockpit appears identical to the 74 that I owned - complete with the forward locker in front of the faring.

MOJO1
08-15-2014, 12:17 PM
I have info on these somewhere that I will dig out tonight. Putting the ID issue aside for a moment, what year is the that motor and how much does he want for the package?

1993

We are negotiating on price right now subject to verifying what this is....ballpark $5,000

Conquistador_del_mar
08-15-2014, 01:04 PM
certainly looks like a cig 20 to me - but likely a splash with no CRT HIN. The cockpit appears identical to the 74 that I owned - complete with the forward locker in front of the faring.

Yep, it sure has the lines of a genuine 20' Cig.

Greg Guimond
08-15-2014, 01:12 PM
1993 motor. We are negotiating on price right now subject to verifying what this is....ballpark $5,000

Remember that Cigarette never made an OB model in the 20. The true factory OBs, which were very few, were 21's. Now a converted 20' Cig would measure 19'6" down the centerline so that would be a good starting point for you to see what the splash is. If I recall, the factory produced fewer than 10 Outboard 21s overall. Very rare.

Now on the motor, I'm assuming that it is a carb'd Mercury 2.5 liter V6 as a 1993. That is a lot of weight for a 2.5 hamster to push around. You would want to check leakdown, not just compression. If both are strong than it is worth $900 - $1,300 in good shape. If it's a salt water motor, it's worth nothing as 20 year old motor.

MOJO1
08-15-2014, 09:06 PM
Remember that Cigarette never made an OB model in the 20. The true factory OBs, which were very few, were 21's. Now a converted 20' Cig would measure 19'6" down the centerline so that would be a good starting point for you to see what the splash is. If I recall, the factory produced fewer than 10 Outboard 21s overall. Very rare.

Now on the motor, I'm assuming that it is a carb'd Mercury 2.5 liter V6 as a 1993. That is a lot of weight for a 2.5 hamster to push around. You would want to check leakdown, not just compression. If both are strong than it is worth $900 - $1,300 in good shape. If it's a salt water motor, it's worth nothing as 20 year old motor.


So is there anything you know about this HIN # being LARS for Larsen Boat Company? I think the motor has been in salt water....I wasnt putting a whole lot of value on it....stupid question #1...does splash mean knockoff? lol

Greg Guimond
08-16-2014, 08:16 AM
No, I don't. Get a hold of Lauri and she can run the research for you on what is going on for a small fee. Here is a picture of a genuine Cig 20 I/O bottom to compare it to.

Lauri Tweedale
New England Marine Documentation
2 Central Street
Winchester MA 01890
Tel 781.721.4500
Fax 781721.5509
www.boatdoc.com (http://www.boatdoc.com/)

Morgan's Cloud
08-16-2014, 08:58 AM
Just to add to the thread , seeing we're on the topic ..
There's a local power boat racing club here that until recently utilized mostly small Euro and some US made outboard hulls for closed circuit racing .Once a year they hold their premier event 'The Around the Island Race' . Back in '73 or so one of the members who was quite successful wanted his Around the Island title back and he went to Don to buy a Cig 20 . Bear in mind that the local organization was all outboards and there was no O/B Cigs back then . Don sold him an unrigged all black naked 20.
Once it got here the owner cut a well for it and turned the transom into an O/B .
It came out pretty good visually and they put the largest Merc available at the time on it .
I don't think ' brackets' were out then yet . Coming , but not available .
I'm taking a guess that the engine was probably around 200hp and because it was a Cig great things were expected of it .
In the end the top speed was a massive let down and everything else still went past him with ease.
BUT , he did have a wave crusher like none of the others and never had to pull back on the throttle !
In the end I think they realized that the boat ,as built , needed V8 power .

Actually , it's still kicking around in use as a pleasure boat .The last time I saw it it had a newish V6 Yammy on it , but I've never seen the boat run set up this way.

Greg Guimond
08-16-2014, 10:10 AM
That makes sense MC. I can see how someone might want to do that conversion to a Cigarette 20' I/O hull. I did the exact same thing to my Ultra 23XS which was an I/O boat. He may have even rigged it with the "hot" Mercury 3.4L 275hp Cosworth OB. What Island are you on?

When George Linder designed the Challenger 21 specifically for OB power this started a bit of a mini war on the race circuit. It's before my time but I believe that the first Challenger 21 was 1976 or so. They were incredibly capable boats and I suspect that seeing this, Cigarette tried to make a competitive boat by stretching there proven 20' I/O hull and turning it into a 21' O/B hull. Alas, the 21's did not work and were a flop. They made less than a dozen of them and every now and then you see a true factory Cig 21 OB pop up for sale for around $10k. They had the center console throttle pod.

Greg Guimond
08-16-2014, 10:12 AM
OB is a 1993. We are negotiating on price right now subject to verifying what this is....ballpark $5,000

What year is the hull?

Morgan's Cloud
08-16-2014, 11:05 AM
Greg , I'm in Bermuda and the running of the Around the Island Race is tomorrow !
A quick google search would get lots of results using the right words .

Interestingly , a classmate of mine who was a serious boat head and went on to open a successful marine business got into the racing scene with one of the first Challengers . It was the tan/burgundy combo and seeing he was an OMC man , was rigged with an Evinrude .
So good was the boat and his prep work and experience that he reset all the records for the Round the Island Race for about 5 consecutive years .

Another friend bought over a custom all blue I/O package for pleasure use.
I don't know what ended up becoming of the O/B one but the I/O suffered neglect under subsequent owners and is rotting in a garden somewhere .

When you have a boat that is complete balsa core construction the owner has to be a bit more knowledgeable than the owner of a resin bucket , IMO

Greg Guimond
08-16-2014, 12:58 PM
Greg, I'm in Bermuda and the running of the Around the Island Race is tomorrow! Interestingly , a classmate of mine who was a serious boat head and went on to open a successful marine business got into the racing scene with one of the first Challengers.

I wonder if there is a live video feed of that race? That would be fun to watch. I have never seen a Cig 21 OB running. The Cig 20 I/O with big power has done 100mph on several occasions and there is a video of it somewhere.

Morgan's Cloud
08-16-2014, 04:02 PM
Greg , you can find basic info on some of the entries here

http://bernews.com/2014/08/additional-around-the-island-race-entrants/

and info on the course here

http://bernews.com/2014/08/around-the-island-powerboat-race-route/

Video coverage is normally only available the following day if someone has any and has submitted it .
It's normally only snippets taken from a single vantage point , not the entire race.

It's already expensive enough , I doubt that someone would be generous enough to bring in a private helicopter to cover it as well .. :biggrin.:

When I started watching it sometime in the 60' s the fastest time around was something like 1.5 hours . Now it's down to about 39 minutes !

One year , long before I was even thought of, my pops and an uncle participated. They had a 30hp Johnson which was almost the biggest engine then and they packed a thermos of tea and biscuits for refreshments.
They weren't able to enjoy them though because the bottom of the hull split open and they had to beach the boat.

Ohh , the good ole days . lol

Greg Guimond
08-17-2014, 08:09 AM
Some very cool info in those threads MC and man do you guys get all the non standard boats in that race. I'd like to race my Team Warlock in that and stay at Pink Beach Club while there.

Here is a picture of a factory Cigarette 21 O/B with a 2.5 Mercury ..........

mattyboy
08-17-2014, 09:19 AM
a couple of things

remember in 74 Glaspar had a deal with Don to make the Don 20 which was a copy of the 20 not sure what the HIN would be, but Glasspar was sold to Larson boats not sure on timeframe for sale

http://www.classicglasspars.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=106:1956-lido-series&catid=9:lido&Itemid=3


the true Cig 20's bottom changed over the years eventually updating her old round bottom

early boats had short inner strake later boats had longer strakes more like a 22c like in the picture that Greg posted of the 20 on a lift then the post 90's boats had pads and ran FAST


It's not a true CRT boat

Morgan's Cloud
08-17-2014, 11:59 AM
Some very cool info in those threads MC and man do you guys get all the non standard boats in that race. I'd like to race my Team Warlock in that and stay at Pink Beach Club while there.



Greg , if you've got any background in o/b racing classes up to about 22' or so you'd probably really like this event.

Unless it's a dead calm day there's going to be some rough water somewhere along the course. And if that's the case , in one area it'll be head on , then later it'll be abeam and then later it could be from the stern .Then there's the areas with a rolling ocean swell too.

Because most of the boats are small they can stay inside the reef line which makes it a great spectator event for all the non boat owners.
But you've got to know all the reefs and the exact tide as well as often your route threads over and around them.

The biggest problem for spectators is attrition . Unless you're just outside the start line by the time they get to your vantage point a starting fleet of 23+ could drop to 8 or 15 boats .

I'm sure that by tomorrow you'll see updates on the links to that site with more photos and maybe a short video clip as well.

Morgan's Cloud
08-18-2014, 12:17 PM
Just a follow up for you Greg .


http://www.royalgazette.com/article/20140818/SPORT/140819771



It turned out to be a very rough race . I'm surprised that there was the amount of finishers that there was .

The Selley twins ,who I happen to know quite well , are the nephews of my old schoolmate who bought in the Challenger mentioned earlier.
Their dad also raced for years to . We towed him back in on at least one occasion.

It sure does run in the family's blood .

MOJO1
08-18-2014, 01:08 PM
a couple of things

remember in 74 Glaspar had a deal with Don to make the Don 20 which was a copy of the 20 not sure what the HIN would be, but Glasspar was sold to Larson boats not sure on timeframe for sale

http://www.classicglasspars.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=106:1956-lido-series&catid=9:lido&Itemid=3


the true Cig 20's bottom changed over the years eventually updating her old round bottom

early boats had short inner strake later boats had longer strakes more like a 22c like in the picture that Greg posted of the 20 on a lift then the post 90's boats had pads and ran FAST


It's not a true CRT boat




Thanks to all of you for your help, this has all been very interesting, especially this Glaspar Larson potential link....I think this is a Larson.

Morgan's Cloud
08-19-2014, 01:47 PM
a couple of things

remember in 74 Glaspar had a deal with Don to make the Don 20 which was a copy of the 20 not sure what the HIN would be, but Glasspar was sold to Larson boats not sure on timeframe for sale

http://www.classicglasspars.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=106:1956-lido-series&catid=9:lido&Itemid=3


the true Cig 20's bottom changed over the years eventually updating her old round bottom

early boats had short inner strake later boats had longer strakes more like a 22c like in the picture that Greg posted of the 20 on a lift then the post 90's boats had pads and ran FAST


It's not a true CRT boat


As usual , this is the kind of information that real boat heads have tucked away in their files. Maybe common knowledge at some point eons ago but only remembered by a handful now , and ever so useful when put back out in the sunshine of scrutiny .

Now , here's a question for anyone in the know , especially including Matty seeing he exposed it .

It seems that a few manufacturers were able to legally get their mitts on some of Don's designs and make their own version under their label and license.
Not to be confused with , say , Cobalt who did an outright splash , but a very good one.

Do you think they had to hold the DA boats to a higher production standard than what the rest of their line was built to ?

As an example , Larson has been in business for ever and built boats well suited for their target audience , but do you think this Larson / Cig would have stood apart from their other boats in terms of build quality and finish ?

Greg Guimond
08-19-2014, 08:48 PM
MC, just to be clear............. your asking if a competitive boat company that built a hull that LOOKED like one of Don Aronow's factory originals would have felt obligated to build that splash model to a higher standard?

I would think that the live test case for your question is the Larson (Cigarette Copy??) that is the subject of this thread.

MOJO1 has a lot of homework to do ............

A. Measure the true LOA of the hull to see if it is a 20 or a 21 splash
B. Compare the bottom of the hull he wants to buy for $5k to the factory Cigs (20 and 21) that were posted
C. Pay Laurie at NE Marine Documentation to do a background check on the HIN
D. Get out a flashlight, a dirty pair of jeans and a rubber mallet and start pinging the hull and checking the layup schedule

Or .............. just buy a Warlock :bighug:

Morgan's Cloud
08-20-2014, 07:26 AM
Greg , yes. As it would apply to this Larson/Cig if legitimately built under license/agreement , or any other manufacturer .

I'm just kind of curious if a run of the mill pleasure boat builder upped the standards a bit for one of Don's boats if they were allowed to make them.

MOJO1
08-20-2014, 11:07 AM
MC, just to be clear............. your asking if a competitive boat company that built a hull that LOOKED like one of Don Aronow's factory originals would have felt obligated to build that splash model to a higher standard?

I would think that the live test case for your question is the Larson (Cigarette Copy??) that is the subject of this thread.

MOJO1 has a lot of homework to do ............

A. Measure the true LOA of the hull to see if it is a 20 or a 21 splash
B. Compare the bottom of the hull he wants to buy for $5k to the factory Cigs (20 and 21) that were posted
C. Pay Laurie at NE Marine Documentation to do a background check on the HIN
D. Get out a flashlight, a dirty pair of jeans and a rubber mallet and start pinging the hull and checking the layup schedule

Or .............. just buy a Warlock :bighug:


Yea....I have dirty jeans, flashlights....and this 97' go fast to take care of.....I don't need another project, and I haven't seen a Warlock on the River....and the Warlock is sounding better and better.805538055480555

Greg Guimond
08-20-2014, 11:23 AM
Yea....I have dirty jeans, flashlights....and this 97' go fast to take care of.....I don't need another project, and I haven't seen a Warlock on the River....and the Warlock is sounding better and better.

That's a nice little fella you have there. I'm on my way over to this one ..............

bertsboat
08-20-2014, 12:30 PM
yea....i have dirty jeans, flashlights....and this 97' go fast to take care of.....i don't need another project, and i haven't seen a warlock on the river....and the warlock is sounding better and better.805538055480555
what manufacture is your big yacht and where do you keep it?

MOJO1
08-20-2014, 02:34 PM
That's a nice little fella you have there. I'm on my way over to this one ..............

My annual budget is his soap budget.....I'm a one man show here.

MOJO1
08-20-2014, 02:36 PM
what manufacture is your big yacht and where do you keep it?

1991 McQueen (Vancouver, B.C.), Bill Garden design, Cold Molded. She is Currently in Portland, OR .

mattyboy
08-21-2014, 10:01 AM
A HIN tells you where the boat was built and gives the info needed if there were ever a recall or a problem with any defective materials were used during construction.
Some Donzi carry a CCA hin which means they are Donzi built at the Chris Craft factory in goshen Indiana . Not really an issue OMC was the owner of both companies and they choose to move mfgr'ing of the classics to goshen. Glasspar was eventually taken over by Larson so they may have decided to make them at the larson plant.

the don 20 looks to be a bit different in the rear seat area from a Cig 20 of that era but that is judging by low res brochure pic. I can see Don franchising his smaller boats especially at that time in his career . His main focus was CRT and the bigger racing boats so he gives his blessing here sell it say it's mine for a piece of the action.

The big thing is Don at Cigarette and the CRT HIN That means it can wear the big number 1 on the side. They are the most copied splashed designs , The cliche "cigarette type boat". every go fast is compared to a Cig so this 20 may have a story but it is still not a CIG


I would imagine the bottom of this boat looks pretty much like most of Walt's 24/7 round bottomed boats

Greg Guimond
08-21-2014, 12:56 PM
Greg , yes. As it would apply to this Larson/Cig if legitimately built under license/agreement , or any other manufacturer. I'm just kind of curious if a run of the mill pleasure boat builder upped the standards a bit for one of Don's boats if they were allowed to make them.

My thoughts MC ............ If the company doing the splash of a Don Aronow design (legal or not) was a substantial company with a lengthy history I think you are correct that they would make an extra effort to build a better boat than there normal layup. If they were more of a fly by night company, no I think they would build the same junky way they were known for.

In the case of this Larson Cigarette, Larson has a very long history of positive results over 100 years in business. I would bet that this particular copy of a Cigarette OB (20'? 21'?) would have been built to very high standards as it was probably done on the boutique side of Larson's business. Also, given Larson's good reputation in the marine business, I'd suspect that Larson paid for the right to use the design.

If the OP investigates things, he may find out he's got a very nicely built boat for short money. That research of course takes time and effort though. The seller probably does not know what he has an therefore will just give it away below $5k out of frustration over time.

Lenny
08-21-2014, 10:12 PM
drop by. I know I have seen this boat around. I am on Piers Island during the summer months. About 2000' from Bill Gardens ( R.I.P ) Deer island in Victoria.

I spent many days of my early childhood at his house there as he showed me how to " loft " hulls... ( in pencil and with weights and arcs )

Pretty cool stuff. Bill always drew a nice looking, GREAT running boat.

Very nice !

dsparis
08-29-2014, 04:26 PM
http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/boa/4631682570.html

Greg Guimond
08-30-2014, 08:39 AM
Here is the ad. That is a lot of money to spend on a restoration. If all that is true and the motor checks out under a test run, I'd just buy it and have fun with it.

jtr2kwl
08-31-2014, 02:57 AM
Just wanted to chime in briefly about this boat, because I believe I dug up some information about them when I was researching my Cig 20 about 2.5 yrs ago. If memory serves, Cigarette actually licensed the 20 to Larsen. I don't believe many were made, but I'm pretty sure that's the case.

Greg Guimond
09-01-2014, 08:46 PM
Just wanted to chime in briefly about this boat, because I believe I dug up some information about them when I was researching my Cig 20 about 2.5 yrs ago. If memory serves, Cigarette actually licensed the 20 to Larsen. I don't believe many were made, but I'm pretty sure that's the case.

That would make sense as the boat that is for sale looks like it has a round bottom. If that is the case then it is a splash of the Cig 20 I/O that Larson decided to throw a bracket on. All of the factory Cigarette 21'OB hulls had true pointy V's and the race console. Some say 12 were built and some say 6. Either way the Cig 21 OB was very rare.

Good info jtr2kwl :yes:

Monopoly 46
04-09-2015, 07:57 PM
Some very cool info in those threads MC and man do you guys get all the non standard boats in that race. I'd like to race my Team Warlock in that and stay at Pink Beach Club while there.

Here is a picture of a factory Cigarette 21 O/B with a 2.5 Mercury ..........

Ik this thread is a few months old but I was wondering if you had anymore info or photos you could share on 21 cigs? The one in this photo is hull #11 out of 13 and just finished getting all new interior, transom/ stringers, and a good wet sanding and buff and now we are rebuilding the motor to get a little more hp out of her.
Thanks

Greg Guimond
04-10-2015, 08:34 AM
Ik this thread is a few months old but I was wondering if you had anymore info or photos you could share on 21 cigs? The one in this photo is hull #11 out of 13 and just finished getting all new interior, transom/ stringers, and a good wet sanding and buff and now we are rebuilding the motor to get a little more hp out of her.
Thanks

I'm not clear on which Cigarette you actually own Monopoly. Post up a couple of clear photos of it and I'm sure I have some additional info in the archive :yes:

Monopoly 46
04-12-2015, 11:36 PM
I'm not clear on which Cigarette you actually own Monopoly. Post up a couple of clear photos of it and I'm sure I have some additional info in the archive :yes:


8197281973

Greg Guimond
04-13-2015, 12:11 AM
What are the first three letters of the HIN? Post a clear picture of the inside of the transom area and stringers. Depending on what I see Scott Layman may have specifics. How do you know it is # 11?

seano
04-29-2015, 10:38 AM
That's a nice little fella you have there. I'm on my way over to this one ..............

Greg, Is that EV? Looks like it to me... I've been on that boat several times...