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gcarter
07-17-2014, 02:04 PM
Sometimes, I think we as older (the age of the boats and not the owners) performance boat owners, and maybe newbie’s in particular, aren’t particularly honest w/themselves about the value of their own, and other’s boats. I think I’ve mentioned this before, but in the collector car and motorcycle world, there’re grading standards. These standards are very important and taken very seriously. In the realm of boats, I don’t think the same standards exist, nor are they taken seriously. We see folks that want to buy a 70 MPH BBC powered 22C for $10k and it to be a perfect “1”! Their budget will put them into a mid ‘80’s boat and we know a lot of those boats can have a lot of issues. Often they get frustrated, don’t, or can’t themselves, pull the deck, repair the cockpit floor and seat bases, replace the tank, and all the wiring/switchgear. The result is generally something that’ll be hauled off in the future. I know the same thing happens in the old car and motorcycle world where the rule is “Buy the best car or motorcycle you can afford”. The same rule should apply to performance boats as there are generally no freebies and real bargains, i.e. “Cheap probably means problems”. The laws of nature aren’t suspended for wannabe performance boat owners.
Anyway, I have a “Comprehensive Vintage Motorcycle Price Guide 2013/2014 Edition”. What’s neat about this guide is the definitions put forward for grading the condition of bikes, and I believe the same guide could be applied to performance boats. So here goes;
· Condition 1- Perfect/New- New, unused motorcycles or perfect restorations. It should be noted there are almost no Condition 1 motorcycles on the road. These are bikes that would have just left the showroom floor, or have been restored to showroom condition with proper factory specifications. Everything runs and operates perfectly. These bikes are rarely ridden, and often will be show winners. Many people save these bikes in climate-controlled rooms or museums as investment pieces or works of art. Note that there are often differences between a Condition 1 original bike, and a Condition 1 restored bike, related to the demand and rarity. This is a factor that must be taken into consideration when purchasing a Condition 1 motorcycle.
· Condition 2- Excellent- Without close examination, many Condition 2 motorcycles may appear as Condition 1. It may be a bike that is ridden, but usually for limited miles. It may be a well restored bike, or a well preserved original. There is almost no wear, or very minimal wear on these motorcycles.
· Condition 3- Very Good- Most bikes that are seen on the road are Condition 3, or Condition 4. They are operable original bikes, or perhaps older restorations that have some wear. It may look good as you gaze at it in a parking lot, but as you get closer, you may see paint nicks or light fading; wear on the plastic, rubber, or leather parts; or light dulling of the chrome. All components of the bike are in working order.
· Condition 4- This is a basic, usable motorcycle. This can be an original well used model, or a restoration that’s been ridden and has begun to deteriorate. This bike may need some minor work, but most of the systems should function. Even from a distance, it is obvious that there are chips and fading in the paint, small dents, rust, poor chrome, or other areas of the motorcycle that need attention.
· Condition 5- Fair- This is a motorcycle that needs close to a full restoration. It may or may not be running, but it is in better shape than a condition 6 motorcycle. These bikes usually have all of the original parts, or the parts may be available from the owners if they have modified the bike and have not discarded the original equipment. It has rust, faded or scratched paint, pitted, or dull chrome, but not throughout the entire bike. This is a bike that would be considered as a good base for a restoration and would not present the restorer with a huge chore to find parts and supplies.
· Condition 6- Poor- These bikes are not running. They may be missing parts, may have been wrecked, and are in poor shape throughout, with faded and scratched paint, lots of rust, badly pitted or rusted chrome, tears in seats, cracked plastic and leather, worn or torn rubber pieces, and other problems. These bikes are usually good for parts to be used on other restorations, but can also be in the form of a complete bike in bad shape.

After reading through this it's obvious the various definitions can transfer directly to the performance boating world. I think it's a useful tool. It could be referred to when someone comes to our humble group of owners and members.
For instance, in my own history of Donzi ownership, both the Minx and the Testa Rossa were clearly Condition 6 boats. I paid $4K for the Minx, and $11.5K for the TR. Neither one ran. Both required about 5 times the initial investment to become what they eventually were. That multiplier might even be a good rule of thumb for wannabe's,
i.e.- original investment X 5 = a pretty good Donzi! Now that should be easy to remember.
After considering the condition of the boat...let's say a Condition 3 boat, it'll have a value based on depreciation compared to a new boat. Since a new 22C is $120K, and let's say the boat of interest is 15 years old will probably be valued at $20-$30K. A Condition 3, 15 year old 22C Donzi is very useful boat that anyone should be happy to own. It should have a lot of life left in it, be a boat you could be proud to own and easy to sell when the time comes.
This thread is open for discussion, and it's not meant to be an absolute, but more along the lines of a primer for performance boat hunting, or a resource for discuss the relative value of late '60's BS, V-drive Hornets.

Ghost
07-17-2014, 02:27 PM
I agree it's a good way to think about it. (One thing I wonder: in the car world, how hard is it to know what's really wrong, to grade condition? In the boat world, it feels to me like it's harder, and that there's almost always a good bit that would require destructive testing to really assess.)

The other thing that I think is important in such systems is that two people can agree on every specific detail but then attach a different grade. Savvy people deal with this, understanding the limits of grading systems, but the concept is useful to point out on the front end I think.

gcarter
07-17-2014, 02:35 PM
I agree it's a good way to think about it. (One thing I wonder: in the car world, how hard is it to know what's really wrong, to grade condition? In the boat world, it feels to me like it's harder, and that there's almost always a good bit that would require destructive testing to really assess.)

The other thing that I think is important in such systems is that two people can agree on every specific detail but then attach a different grade. Savvy people deal with this, understanding the limits of grading systems, but the concept is useful to point out on the front end I think.

Yes Mike, I think it's an educational tool. To define what various adjectives mean, i.e.- a Condition 3 isn't excellent!
If both sellers and buyers have some ground rules, no one should be getting BS!
To answer your second sentence, a bit of knowledge of the product is useful.

mike o
07-17-2014, 04:41 PM
Do you happen to view all the mostly performance boat's for sale on here ? "Powerboat swapshop" https://www.facebook.com/groups/101777369989888/

Lots of nice stuff is posted here for sale, interesting to see the values and interest in them. Give's a handle on what is selling for what. Last Saturday I went to the NH vintage boat museum's annual auction. There were some nice boats in the auction glass and wood. Surprisingly, not much bidding from a button down collar crowd with $. Most boats were passed over by the auctioneer due to lack of bidding to the reserve. A completely restored 20 something Lyman didnt even reach a 10K bid nor did a 24' mint Chris Craft sea skiff. In glass, a 21 century Coronado, mint condition, one owner - boat house kept sold for 11.5. I think its a tough market for old boats. It is a fact people are buying new pontoon and big dollar ski boats up here. On my lake anyway.

Carl C
07-17-2014, 05:17 PM
Up here in the north it is rust that wrecks our cars unless they are stored in the winter. They can be easily assessed by looking at the undercarriage and door bottoms for signs of rust. A boat can look perfect but have a concealed compromised gas tank and extensive rot in the wood and waterlogged foam, etc. Damage that cannot be seen. Doesn't the fiberglass itself deteriorate if exposed to excessive sunlight? Big difference between cars and boats for sure. It makes me question the building methods and why any wood is even used at all in a boat. Fully cored boats with thin glass skins are especially vulnerable. Boats seem to have a limited life span before needing full structural restoration no matter how well they are taken care of. Therefore the lower value and demand of an old boat as compared to an old car, motorcycle or aircraft.

joseph m. hahnl
07-17-2014, 07:01 PM
I think that we are our own worst enemy when it comes to boat selling. How many times do you see some greenhorn asking advise and what to look for in this Donzi that he's looking at and every time the boat he's looking at is shot to hell with negative comments. :shocking: For instance let's take Pizzaz as an example. There is going to be some one interested in buying it and will ask opinions on it and what to look for. It will be shot to hell because the paint job is shody ,blistered and has runs "already been done" then it will need a gas tank new fuel system and a survey as all the stringers are soft because Donzi's are so crapily made :rolleyes: Why would any one ever buy a Donzi after all of the experts crap on them?:worthy:

bertsboat
07-17-2014, 07:10 PM
Very well said Joseph.


I think that we are our own worst enemy when it comes to boat selling. How many times do you see some greenhorn asking advise and what to look for in this Donzi that he's looking at and every time the boat he's looking at is shot to hell with negative comments. :shocking: For instance let's take Pizzaz as an example. There is going to be some one interested in buying it and will ask opinions on it and what to look for. It will be shot to hell because the paint job is shody ,blistered and has runs "already been done" then it will need a gas tank new fuel system and a survey as all the stringers are soft because Donzi's are so crapily made :rolleyes: Why would any one ever buy a Donzi after all of the experts crap on them?:worthy:

woobs
07-17-2014, 07:15 PM
Why would any one ever buy a Donzi after all of the experts crap on them?:worthy:

I don't think it's just Donzi... it's any 46 year old boat. The enthusiasts here just happen to know from experience about things like non sealed cuts and areas of exposure by model. A fuel tank is just common sense after that amount of time. I would imagine wiring, switches and a host of other things that may be suspect on any boat of this age.

I would say this is sound advice as we don't want those same greenhorns buying a "pig in a poke". I'm sure when you buy something you want full disclosure, right? This is one of the reasons sites like this are here. You call these things negative, yet I only see information as positive (as long as it's good information). If your point is that it's harder to "buffalo" those same greenhorns into over valuing because they have not taken all into account... I say you're right and that's a good thing.

Maybe we could be our own best friend and list boats for sale at a realistic value instead of hoping to score a "home run" at the expense of the naïve to recoup all we have ever spent on them in one fell swoop.

Just Say N20
07-17-2014, 09:08 PM
Price paid times 5X?!?

I wish!

I stopped at 7X after paying $5,000. 😳. And it still sits on the trailer it came on.

And I didn't count a penny for any of the 100s and 100s of hours I put into it.

Sure is cool though. 😍

Carl C
07-17-2014, 09:23 PM
It really bugs me to think that I could have had Ted's Ilmor 22 for quite a bit less then I have in my current 22. If the cash were there I would have snatched that boat up fast and put mine on the market.

Scott Pearson
07-17-2014, 09:50 PM
Bert, Joseph,

With all due respect. Remind me not to ever look at a boat for either of you since I have no idea what I'm talking about. Sorry that I'm catching so much crap for giving my opinion. Last time I looked this site was a place to read peoples opinions on things and learn from what others had to offer. This site sure has changed...In fact the whole DONZI family has changed. Real shame people like you bash certain members on here.

I know these Hornets inside and out more so than you two ever will. I stand by my findings on Pzazz. I never said it needed coring, stringers or a transom. I never said it needed a motor or that it didn't run. I never said anything about any of the rigging or hardware. I never said what I thought it was worth! I did state that the paint was not up to par. I did suggest areas to look for that might be a problem. I can tell you this...If someone told me the paint was nice and had no issues and I traveled a distance to look at the boat and was expecting one thing and found another I would be one pissed off MOFO!

Hell...If he gets 40K for the boat it just makes my Hornets worth a ton more. I'm not trashing this boat or stating false information. I made an offer on the boat and it wasn't excepted. I'm good with that. I already have a few Hornets...I really don't need another one.

The crazy thing is I have had 2 members contact me in an almost threatening manner because of my opinion. Last time I looked this was still a free country. Real shame some people are like this...maybe they should run for President...They would fit right in!

gcarter
07-17-2014, 10:02 PM
Price paid times 5X?!?

I wish!

I stopped at 7X after paying $5,000. . And it still sits on the trailer it came on.

And I didn't count a penny for any of the 100s and 100s of hours I put into it.

Sure is cool though. 

X 6 or X7 is probably closer to the truth, but X 5 is still a benchmark I think.
And you can always save money at times. For instance, I was able to barter a trailer for the Minx for a water softener.

joseph m. hahnl
07-17-2014, 10:16 PM
Bert, Joseph,

With all due respect. Remind me not to ever look at a boat for either of you since I have no idea what I'm talking about. Sorry that I'm catching so much crap for giving my opinion. Last time I looked this site was a place to read peoples opinions on things and learn from what others had to offer. This site sure has changed...In fact the whole DONZI family has changed. Real shame people like you bash certain members on here.

I know these Hornets inside and out more so than you two ever will. I stand by my findings on Pzazz. I never said it needed coring, stringers or a transom. I never said it needed a motor or that it didn't run. I never said anything about any of the rigging or hardware. I never said what I thought it was worth! I did state that the paint was not up to par. I did suggest areas to look for that might be a problem. I can tell you this...If someone told me the paint was nice and had no issues and I traveled a distance to look at the boat and was expecting one thing and found another I would be one pissed off MOFO!

Hell...If he gets 40K for the boat it just makes my Hornets worth a ton more. I'm not trashing this boat or stating false information. I made an offer on the boat and it wasn't excepted. I'm good with that. I already have a few Hornets...I really don't need another one.

The crazy thing is I have had 2 members contact me in an almost threatening manner because of my opinion. Last time I looked this was still a free country. Real shame some people are like this...maybe they should run for President...They would fit right in!
Scott I was not pointing you out nor was I trying to diminish your expertise in knowledge and skill on the old Hornets . I was merely generalizing and used the paint comment and comments that other members also made in the same thread. Don't be so narcissistic it's not always about you:biggrin.: Oh and thanks for not looking at a Donzi for me because I already have one and frankly I think my Minx is a quality boat even if the paint job sucks:kingme: Peace brother:)

gcarter
07-17-2014, 10:21 PM
I think that we are our own worst enemy when it comes to boat selling. How many times do you see some greenhorn asking advise and what to look for in this Donzi that he's looking at and every time the boat he's looking at is shot to hell with negative comments. :shocking: For instance let's take Pizzaz as an example. There is going to be some one interested in buying it and will ask opinions on it and what to look for. It will be shot to hell because the paint job is shody ,blistered and has runs "already been done" then it will need a gas tank new fuel system and a survey as all the stringers are soft because Donzi's are so crapily made :rolleyes: Why would any one ever buy a Donzi after all of the experts crap on them?:worthy:

Joe, this is where honesty comes into play. If someone asks here what to look for in a 25 year old Donzi, should no one say that tanks can be an issue? Or to explain all those cracks in the cockpit floor will only get worse over time? Or that all those issues can be fixed pretty easily, or not at great expense? If I were really interested in a particular boat and wanted some negotiating material, I would like to know those things and that if the owner would be reasonable in his asking price so I could spend $10K on the required work. After all, there's a lot more $5K-$10K Minx's around than there are really good $20K Minx's. If it's a Minx you want and know you'll have to pay $20K for a good one, you'll either negotiate harder for a good unrestored boat so the necessary work can be done, or chase down one of the few good ones. But if you're new to Donzi's, wouldn't you want to know?

Scott Pearson
07-17-2014, 10:23 PM
Joseph,
Thanks for the reply... It's all good.

mattyboy
07-18-2014, 06:57 AM
Damn straight GC

Scott. Rose colored glasses

Scott Pearson
07-18-2014, 09:59 AM
I was thinking about this a little bit and wanted to post it to see if it made sence.

This is how I feel about buying a boat because I collect, restore and enjoy them. Its easier for me to buy an older boat that needs work for say $5,000-$15,000 then it would be to buy a $30,000-$40,000 boat that is running and in ok shape but will need work and money invested later on.

The only reason why I say this is that it seems like a hard hit to lay that much money out all at once instead of buying something and slowly investing in the restoration over a little bit of time. And the finished product is exactly how you wanted it and its done correctly and 100%. Now you have a turn key boat that will last a very, very long time.

Money is a lot tighter now. To me it it would be alot harder to part with all of that up front than to just spread it out as you go. Now I know some people cant do a lot of things that are required for a restoration and have to pay someone so it might change things a little. But for the most part I really feel that all of us on this sight are pretty damn handy or know someone else that is and is willing to give a hand for a few beers.

I think that the DONZI group is much more diversifiedthan most.

mattyboy
07-18-2014, 10:10 AM
the road to improvement comes from within

be the ball Noonan

repeat after me

the donzi is good, the donzi is fast , the donzi is loud, I am the donzi......................



now let's gather in a circle

kumbaya, kumbaya

someone's jumping wakes kumbaya

someone's break noise laws kumbaya

someone's running dyno oil with out enuff zinc in their roller motor kumbaya

someone's running over 70 without external power steering kumbaya

someone's waxing their shorty kumbaya



there don't we feel better isn't life grand


what happened to the delta I used to know

Carl C
07-18-2014, 10:14 AM
I was thinking about this a little bit and wanted to post it to see if it made sence.

This is how I feel about buying a boat because I collect, restore and enjoy them. Its easier for me to buy an older boat that needs work for say $5,000-$15,000 then it would be to buy a $30,000-$40,000 boat that is running and in ok shape but will need work and money invested later on.

The only reason why I say this is that it seems like a hard hit to lay that much money out all at once instead of buying something and slowly investing in the restoration over a little bit of time. And the finished product is exactly how you wanted it and its done correctly and 100%. Now you have a turn key boat that will last a very, very long time.

Money is a lot tighter now. To me it it would be alot harder to part with all of that up front than to just spread it out as you go. Now I know some people cant do a lot of things that are required for a restoration and have to pay someone so it might change things a little. But for the most part I really feel that all of us on this sight are pretty damn handy or know someone else that is and is willing to give a hand for a few beers.

I think that the DONZI group is much more diversifiedthan most.

Scott, give it some time. That boat is going nowhere for $40,000. I'd call him back in the late fall with another offer. :yes:

Just Say N20
07-18-2014, 10:18 AM
Scott,

I agree 100% with your thinking. I couldn't have plunked down $35,000 for a used Donzi, but I could do a lot of the work myself, and spread the financial hit over 4 years.

And ended up with exactly what I wanted, and for the most part, I really enjoyed the process and the satisfaction of seeing it come together.

woobs
07-18-2014, 10:45 AM
Yes, Scott I think this is common thinking... At least that's how I have always done things.

I bought my '72 911 for $3,500... it took me 3 years to get it finished and I sold it for $38,000 after 4 years of use.... built over time.

I bought my Greavette for $5,000 in 2008. Just got it wet in late July 2013. Of course I'll not be making any $ on it but, I love it just the way it is. (and took a 3rd at the ACBS show even with the modern motor!) 5 years.... just say'n.

I paid $900 for my Ski Sporter + $1,200 for the trailer. It cost me about $550 to go get it from Long island. I don't expect it will be wet anytime soon (maybe 3-4 years) and I expect to invest another $20,000 in the project. Nobody buys an early Ski Sporter for $23,000 so I will have another toy that I really enjoy and had fun building over time.

I would NEVER have made any of those purchases for the final (or perceived) value. Over time I may have paid more but, it didn't hurt me financially nor did my wife scream for a divorce! And whatever $ I lose is cheap therapy.

Who knows if this orange boat will sell at an overinflated price to someone that just "must" have it. I can tell you it wouldn't be me and there's many that think this way. I agree with Carl, Things change. I'd say try again later.
802038020480202

Scott Pearson
07-18-2014, 11:16 AM
Guys,
I would really hope he gets 40K or close to that. It would be nice to see the market on these older Donzi's grow. It would make all of ours worth a bit more. I think we would all be good with that. I know there was a larger offer than mine given towards this boat. I'm ok with that and hope it just goes to a person who will appriciate it for what it is and can be.

I really dont need another baot thats for sure...I really need to finish 3 that are apart now! :bonk::bonk::bonk:

Carl C
07-18-2014, 11:33 AM
You could have Parnell's super sweet 21 GT ready to go, fully restored & reinforced & very fast for that same price. $40,000. Now which would you buy? A project boat that might go 70 mph after putting 30-40 grand into it or an awesome ready to drive unique & dialed in turn-key boat? $40,000 for Pzazz? Never happen, not even close. (IMO)

gcarter
07-18-2014, 11:56 AM
You could have Parnell's super sweet 21 GT ready to go, fully restored & reinforced & very fast for that same price. $40,000. Now which would you buy? A project boat that might go 70 mph after putting 30-40 grand into it or an awesome ready to drive unique & dialed in turn-key boat? $40,000 for Pzazz? Never happen, not even close. (IMO)

As in collector cars, there are people who appreciate a '39 Bugatti 57 SC for what it is rather than actually trying to go 110 MPH in one. There are others who would buy a Jag E Type Lightweight and race it in vintage events.
To each his own. More than likely the eventual purchaser of the BS Hornet will buy it for what it is rather than how fast they can make it go.

Scott Pearson
07-18-2014, 12:07 PM
I love Parnells GT 21 the first time I saw the boat. Its done very tastefully and done right. Its a great looking boat thats for sure. But I each of us like different styles and models etc.

Any old Donzi thats a v-drive is going to take huge HP to get to those upper double digits. I'm not about going 100MPH...I love the look of the v-drive. I have 3 of them. Sometimes you look like an ass trying to dock the damn thing buts thats the fun of it.

Carl C
07-18-2014, 12:25 PM
As in collector cars, there are people who appreciate a '39 Bugatti 57 SC for what it is rather than actually trying to go 110 MPH in one. There are others who would buy a Jag E Type Lightweight and race it in vintage events.
To each his own. More than likely the eventual purchaser of the BS Hornet will buy it for what it is rather than how fast they can make it go.


I love Parnells GT 21 the first time I saw the boat. Its done very tastefully and done right. Its a great looking boat thats for sure. But I each of us like different styles and models etc.

Any old Donzi thats a v-drive is going to take huge HP to get to those upper double digits. I'm not about going 100MPH...I love the look of the v-drive. I have 3 of them. Sometimes you look like an ass trying to dock the damn thing buts thats the fun of it.

That's cool that you have three of them and are trying to get a fourth! :)

BUIZILLA
07-18-2014, 12:27 PM
IMO, regardless of the condition, sentimentality, originality, coolness.....

the boat is priced at the $$ value of a medical procedure that is required, not for any of the above reasons

there is no value quotient in any appraisal books for that.........

maybe the seller should further negotiate the medical costs, and lower the boat price to the real value

I hope those avenues of thought result in 2 successful conclusions

just my .03, don't throw any pies (unless it's a key lime pie)

Scott Pearson
07-18-2014, 12:54 PM
Jim,
I agree about trying to negotiate the cost of the procedure and I hope him all the best. However you can’t rely on or expect a certain amount of money for something because you need to pay for something that’s at a higher cost than what that something your selling is worth. What if the procedure was say…$100,000? Is that what the asking price would have been?

I would love to sell my home and move out to PA but the way the real estate market is I would lose almost 100K on my home. But if I truly want to move I will need to take that hit. But if I need to make that 100K up and price my home where that’s factored in…well…I’m going to be here for a very,very long time. And the market that I would be attracting at the lower cost has now shrunk to a very small audience because now my home is priced way to high .

It’s all relative.

Carl C
07-18-2014, 01:16 PM
Maybe the economy will start to improve in a few years. ;)

Scott Pearson
07-18-2014, 01:34 PM
Hahahahahah....Almost choked on my sandwich!!

BUIZILLA
07-18-2014, 02:55 PM
Jim,
I agree about trying to negotiate the cost of the procedure and I hope him all the best. However you can’t rely on or expect a certain amount of money for something because you need to pay for something that’s at a higher cost than what that something your selling is worth. What if the procedure was say…$100,000? Is that what the asking price would have been?

I would love to sell my home and move out to PA but the way the real estate market is I would lose almost 100K on my home. But if I truly want to move I will need to take that hit. But if I need to make that 100K up and price my home where that’s factored in…well…I’m going to be here for a very,very long time. And the market that I would be attracting at the lower cost has now shrunk to a very small audience because now my home is priced way to high .

It’s all relative.exactly my point................ :yes:

gcarter
07-18-2014, 05:35 PM
I agree it's a good way to think about it. (One thing I wonder: in the car world, how hard is it to know what's really wrong, to grade condition? In the boat world, it feels to me like it's harder, and that there's almost always a good bit that would require destructive testing to really assess.).

Mike, I read this again another six or more times, and the short answer is as far as cars go, there're specialists just like marine surveyors that'll inspect a car for you and give you as much info as you can use. As we all know, we should get a marine surveyor and not make poor choices unless we're just looking for a parts boat. A good surveyor should be able to give you a good estimate of the structural condition. I wander why we don't use them more often?

roadtrip se
07-19-2014, 11:05 AM
I grew up in the car business. Still in it. Comparing boat valuation techniques to cars doesn't really work, because of the sample size. They just build more cars of similar style and options than Donzis, so the statistical data sample is more relevant.

I admire the efforts to apply various evaluation techniques to the Donzi world, but again, if someone came up to me and tried to use this sort of thing to drive their offer on the Flowerpot for example, I would just ask if they were going to make an offer or not, and then move on.

Restoration dollars are dollars lost. It is like putting in a swimming pool at the house. You do it, because you want to enjoy it. I have re-rigged my boat twice in the past fourteen years, and I did it because I enjoyed the results. Is it worth more than the typical 2001, probably. How much? Who knows. I would have to test the market to find out.

I have talked to Parnell a bunch about his experiences selling the GT. It is all about the cash. No one is going to loan money on these old things. You don't have it in the account, you are not buying today. This is probably the number one reason, old restored, and very nice boats aren't moving today. The price has nothing to do with it.

woobs
07-19-2014, 11:52 AM
You don't have it in the account, you are not buying today. This is probably the number one reason, old restored, and very nice boats aren't moving today. The price has nothing to do with it.

Sorry tripse, I disagree. I've spent more than a few decades in the car business too. While there may not be an established "system" to evaluate boats, most everyone uses some sort of criteria or personal system. You must do this to take the emotion out of the purchase.

Emotion on the part of the buyer (gotta have it because it's cool) clouds the issue and affects the decision process. Emotion on the part of the seller (sentimentality) clouds the issue just as much from the other side. You can't script the negotiations other than to say it will be different with each buyer & seller over each different boat.

There are some real facts. Boats deteriorate, fuel systems (amongst others) included. At 46 years old, or any age thereabouts, not replacing a fuel tank is imho, irresponsible. If you want to remove it and have it professionally checked that's one thing but, with the effort and cost to do this... replacement is the right decision. likewise, old wiring is equally important. A complete and proper inspection of structural systems (especially if the boat has not been used in some time) should be mandatory. Once you are into the type of Re & Re it takes to do these things, the repair/replacement issue is much more clear.

In this day of litigation, and as this is a very real concern, I would hope that anyone that represents a particular boat to be sound or, uses such an old boat personally would truly ensure all is really up to scratch. The consequences of not doing this could be immense. Especially if you ever plan on taking passengers (not that there couldn't be an incident at a dock somewhere).

Given this, (old boats require work no matter how clean) the restoration/repair costs are the real driver of the old boat market. The purchase price is merely the down payment and may be insignificant to the overall investment. If that down payment is too high, the potential buyer will be way upside down before even starting (and finding all the other "surprises"). It's easier to buy a newer boat that does not need all this work or wait for one that has had all this work done (and documented) or find one priced more reasonably.

gcarter
07-19-2014, 12:33 PM
If anyone cares to go back and read my original post, while value is mentioned, it's all about determining condition.
We've all seen ads for 25-30 year old Donzi's claiming it to be "rare", and therefore valuable. Of course all Donzi's are rare compared to all cars and bikes w/very few exceptions. I just picked up my "Sports Car Market Pocket Price Guide" and flipped over to Lotus Europa 47 built during the '68-'70 model year, and the production number is fifty five (55) and by car standards, that's almost non-existent production. That's really rare, but for performance boats, in a little over three years, Donzi built and sold 165 Minxs which was all they could produce and sell. The same rules DON'T apply as to value, but the same rules CAN apply for determining condition.
So, what I'm trying to do is raise awareness of misleading ads claiming a 1985 Minx is worth $25K based only on low production numbers. Interested would be first time Donzi purchasers need to have some ground rules to start their search, and that's what i was trying to provide.

Ghost
07-19-2014, 12:48 PM
Maybe I misread something, but I thought Todd and Sean were talking about two different things. Sounded like Todd was talking about old boats that are already restored/nice, versus Sean talking about boats that need a lot done. Where a big limitation on the former is that loans are VERY hard to come by, regardless of how good the boat's condition, and thus the pool of buyers is further shriveled by the need to have a pile of cash, no?

mattyboy
07-19-2014, 12:50 PM
Hahahahahah....Almost choked on my sandwich!!


hope you have obamacare

duckhunter
07-19-2014, 01:15 PM
Maybe I misread something, but I thought Todd and Sean were talking about two different things. Sounded like Todd was talking about old boats that are already restored/nice, versus Sean talking about boats that need a lot done. Where a big limitation on the former is that loans are VERY hard to come by, regardless of how good the boat's condition, and thus the pool of buyers is further shriveled by the need to have a pile of cash, no?

That's how I understood it, as well.

BUIZILLA
07-19-2014, 01:50 PM
Maybe I misread something, but I thought Todd and Sean were talking about two different things. Sounded like Todd was talking about old boats that are already restored/nice, versus Sean talking about boats that need a lot done. Where a big limitation on the former is that loans are VERY hard to come by, regardless of how good the boat's condition, and thus the pool of buyers is further shriveled by the need to have a pile of cash, no? that's how I understood it

gcarter
07-19-2014, 02:32 PM
Restoration dollars are dollars lost.

Upon re-reading Todd's quote, I agree and the heart of it is in the above sentence.
It's a good thing there's room for all of us.

woobs
07-19-2014, 04:06 PM
that's how I understood it

Maybe I need to work on my communication skills.

My post In response to old "restored" and "very nice" original boats are not selling because there is no financing available.... and price is irrelevant.

"This is probably the number one reason, old restored, and very nice boats aren't moving today. The price has nothing to do with it."

My point is that price is very relevant. We overvalue old boats because they are cool and rare without consideration to the costs of reconditioning. Those costs are so significant that the true value of even a cool "nice survivor" is far less than most fans would like to think.

Old restored and very nice boats aren't moving because they are overvalued in comparison with what else is available in the market. A purchaser takes the path of least resistance and that is...

A) a newer boat that does not require all the work (or restored & documented)
B) a complete project.

This because in case A) newer boat that does not require the work utility is derived without more investment. And in B) project acquisition price is low, surprises few(as the worst is assumed) and a value for the complete restoration is considered before purchase.

The older a boat is the more it needs (whether it looks like it or not) at near 50 years old this is a certainty. Tougher to judge at 20 years.

With old boats there is no free lunch. Do the work and document it or sell it for what it's worth. Not list it for what it could be worth IF the work was done....

roadtrip se
07-19-2014, 09:12 PM
Sean...

Several folks here have looked at what I stated and agree with it. There is nothing at all similar to valuing a production run of cars and attempting to compare the same process to a restored, one of a kind, old boat. Night and day. I stand by what I said.

As for the liability factor, an old restored boat with a leaky gas tank, something that would likely be taken care of in a deck-off restoration, presents no more liability than my selling a 22 Classic with 700 prop shaft horsepower to a person stepping up from a Bayliner Capri. Both transactions represent significant liability, as does every boat sale in its own way. However, this liability has nothing to do with the asking price.

Older or newer, people just don't have the cash in pocket to buy these things. Period. And every transaction is going to stand on it's own.

roadtrip se
07-19-2014, 09:31 PM
Upon re-reading Todd's quote, I agree and the heart of it is in the above sentence.
It's a good thing there's room for all of us.

Amen, George. Now, when are we going to see the red head at a run?

woobs
07-19-2014, 11:22 PM
It's okay to have a differing opinion.... I agree with some of what you have said. However, I just disagree with your main point.

Also, I was considering more the "very nice" comment rather than the "old restored" as long as that is a complete and documented restoration and not just a cosmetic one. Although, I believe there is a market for "old restored" boats that is not financing dependant (albeit a small market)



Sean...

Several folks here have looked at what I stated and agree with it. There is nothing at all similar to valuing a production run of cars and attempting to compare the same process to a restored, one of a kind, old boat. Night and day. I stand by what I said.
I never said it was like valuing a production vehicle... I said each person has his own system to come to a valuation.

As for the liability factor, an old restored boat with a leaky gas tank, something that would likely be taken care of in a deck-off restoration, presents no more liability than my selling a 22 Classic with 700 prop shaft horsepower to a person stepping up from a Bayliner Capri. Both transactions represent significant liability, as does every boat sale in its own way. However, this liability has nothing to do with the asking price.
I was speaking to Condition (the liability a possible consequence of mis-representation of condition). To list a 50 year old vessel in original condition and represent it as fit & safe is irresponsible as we know these things need to be changed. Therefore a clean original requires a "deck off" procedure and this must be considered in the asking price.

Older or newer, people just don't have the cash in pocket to buy these things. Period. And every transaction is going to stand on it's own. I think the $ are out there. People just will not spend large amounts on an acquisition where there is a good chance they'll have to spend a lot more to get some use out of it. They will spend the $ if there is documentation to tell them what they are buying is sound or they will wait for an alternative (obvious project) where they KNOW they will be spending the $ and it is already figured in.

It's a small market for boats like Parnell's GT but that boat is worth every penny as it all been done. The "right guy" will come by and score that beauty. More often, the market is for the lower initial cost of an obvious project boat. We spend more by the end... but we still do it and those boats sell frequently. It's just a different way of spending the $ but make no mistake... the $ are being spent.

duckhunter
07-19-2014, 11:37 PM
Sean...

Several folks here have looked at what I stated and agree with it. There is nothing at all similar to valuing a production run of cars and attempting to compare the same process to a restored, one of a kind, old boat. Night and day. I stand by what I said.

Older or newer, people just don't have the cash in pocket to buy these things. Period. And every transaction is going to stand on it's own.

Agreed again, and for the same reasons I mentioned in the Hornet value discussion. Old boats represent too small a sample size and too great a variation in condition and configuration to be able to value quantitatively. You can try to find "comps"and give an educated guess when selling or buying a boat (a qualitative approach), but it's more of a shot in the dark vs. other stuff like bikes or cars. The number that counts is the one that closes the deal.

I think the point about cash is valid as well. There's even a number of boutique finance and insurance outfits that handle classic cars exclusively. No such animal for old boats.

It's been proven here any number of times that it is way more cost-effective to buy a completed project vs. doing it yourself, and that does cross over to the car & bike markets. It's interesting watching the big auctions (Mecum, BJ, etc) and seeing the $150k customs and hot rods cross the block for half that. On the other hand, and unlike boats, the factory original cars seem to consistently bring good money. Some of that can be chalked up to the garage and the street being more forgiving than the marine environment, and some to the fact that the markets are so vastly different. There really doesn't seem to be an equivalent "restomod" category for boats; a 500hp LS '69 Camaro (or whatever) with modern suspension and nice paint and bodywork does great at auction. You probably won't get all of your money out of it, but you'll come way closer than you will with a restomod boat.

One of the rigs that stands out in my mind as a good example of all of this is Parnell's GT. Love that boat; it is immaculate and rigged exactly how I would do it, which is rare from what I've seen cruising the interweb. It is offered at a price that is more than fair IMO, and clearly less than the cost of the parts alone. I'd take it every day of the week and twice on Sunday compared to a $75k plus ski boat or equivalent value new Bayliner or Sea Ray. Or a 40yo original Donzi, for that matter. That said, there's no way I could justify tying up that much cash in a toy, especially one that I can't write off as a condo.

At the end of the day, I think that there is a very limited market for these things in the first place, and it shrinks exponentially when it takes a good chunk of cash to close the deal. The "classic" small boat market is just too specialized and too different from the classic car market to be a valid comparison. JMHO.

Greg Guimond
07-20-2014, 09:43 AM
The #1 driving force to old, rare boats getting sold is the book of the month club. When you can't get a loan on them, they just sit way longer. When you can get a factory loan against a $100k wake board boat, they sell mostly because some guy can swallow $500 a month even though he should not really be buying a $100k toy.

bertsboat
07-21-2014, 10:26 AM
www.bucvalu.com
You get three free look ups. There are lots of Donzi boats in there. Even the Fino is in there.
Hornets too.

Sweet Cheekz
07-21-2014, 06:31 PM
For me, if I was looking at a Donzi and knew this board back when I bought them I would have asked honest opinions. I appreciate Scott or any other knowledgeble person giving me a second or even first opinion if I couldnt see it and would appreciate honesty. The fact is that pizzaz has a paintjob that a discerning buyer paying 40k for would want to know about from a professional. That person can still buy it with the knowledge that it may be an issue he or she has to fix down the road. In addition I think people that have specific knowledge of a particular Donzi they spent time in either restoring or driving or both would be a valuable tool for new buyers in the market. I can speak with some knowledge on the build quality of late 70's gt's and 16 classics and I can also give a fairly practiced opinion of setup and ride features. Cant comment on a bench seat or any other model I know nothing about.
Just my .02 Joesph. Not aimed at you just expounding a bit

Parnell

Sweet Cheekz
07-21-2014, 06:40 PM
Old restored and very nice boats aren't moving because they are overvalued in comparison with what else is available in the market.


Interesting points in an interesting debate but this point is not always correct in my humble opinion. My boat is one example of a restored boat built far superior to a new boat in its class in every way with far more performance than what is available in the newer boat market. I think Todds point about price being irrelavant is basically that you have to have all cash to buy an older rare or restored Donzi. Price is relevant if you compare a newer boat with one of these restored Donzis even after taking the emotion out of it the potential buyer will find bargains over todays boats and he doesnt need to look far. He just needs money in the bank. Parnell

Sweet Cheekz
07-21-2014, 06:44 PM
The #1 driving force to old, rare boats getting sold is the book of the month club. When you can't get a loan on them, they just sit way longer. When you can get a factory loan against a $100k wake board boat, they sell mostly because some guy can swallow $500 a month even though he should not really be buying a $100k toy.

Amen And best of all he finances it for 20 years and it looses 25% of its value the first year then turns up at an auction house two years later all beat up after the economy takes a dive. Exactly what happened in 2009.
I want a new Hatteras 64 gt but 100k down and 100k a month just doesnt fit my budget

woobs
07-21-2014, 09:42 PM
Interesting points in an interesting debate but this point is not always correct in my humble opinion. My boat is one example of a restored boat built far superior to a new boat in its class in every way with far more performance than what is available in the newer boat market. I think Todds point about price being irrelavant is basically that you have to have all cash to buy an older rare or restored Donzi. Price is relevant if you compare a newer boat with one of these restored Donzis even after taking the emotion out of it the potential buyer will find bargains over todays boats and he doesnt need to look far. He just needs money in the bank. Parnell

Except this does not really apply to your beautiful GT 21 as it has been documented through it's entire restoration and any potential buyer will know the condition of every system up front. He can negotiate with confidence in that there's not another 15 - 20K worth of work hidden somewhere. So, there is a market for your restored boat.

Demographics have as much to do with the size of this market as anything. These performance boats appeal to a "younger" crowd or maybe "younger at heart" that may still be raising families etc.... I see plenty of disposable income amongst the "Velcro sneaker" set that is used in the purchase of restored wooden boats. There might be a few of us old farts that still want to own performance boats but not everyone wants more than 2 or3 :) .

(BTW: there's a good market on CC XK "plastic" boats because the woody guys know Chris Craft)

Personally, I don't finance anything (now that my mortgage is paid). If I don't have the scratch... I don't buy it. It does not mean that I will not convert one asset in order to acquire another one though. Sometimes it takes time. But, there's both money and people out there for a boat like yours!

Perhaps the recent ACBS ruling on "contemporary Classics" will help generate interests in the Donzi brand moving forward. As soon as that crowd learns and appreciates the history of the marque that small market will become a little less small.

gcarter
07-21-2014, 09:45 PM
Interesting points in an interesting debate but this point is not always correct in my humble opinion. My boat is one example of a restored boat built far superior to a new boat in its class in every way with far more performance than what is available in the newer boat market. I think Todds point about price being irrelavant is basically that you have to have all cash to buy an older rare or restored Donzi. Price is relevant if you compare a newer boat with one of these restored Donzis even after taking the emotion out of it the potential buyer will find bargains over todays boats and he doesnt need to look far. He just needs money in the bank. Parnell

Amen to this Parnell.
Maybe some folks buy new boats/bikes/cars because they associate confidence and little maintenance to the fact it's new. Now, if the buyer has the cash, he could buy a better than new Donzi at a fraction of the price of a new Donzi by buying yours , or mine, for that matter.

Greg Guimond
07-21-2014, 11:06 PM
Here is another example to spread the discussion beyond just Donzi's. This is a 1989 Hallett 240 Closed Bow. It is 100% stock and maintained with an open checkbook to like new condition including being kept inside a climate controlled garage by the owner. Has the proven 365hp 454 Magnum and B1 drive. Hallett has an outstanding reputation for build quality and the 240 is a tried and true hull design. It's a big 24 with an 8'4" beam. Closed Bow 240's are also hard to find as most were open bows. In addition, the gel colors are current for a 25 year old boat and the trailer is mint. The owner wants $30,000. If someone could finance the purchase it would be gone in a week but because you have to write a check for $30,000 who knows how long it will take. If you bought this boat new it would be over $100,000 with a non-blue motor.

Greg Guimond
07-22-2014, 08:41 AM
Or maybe you are more inclined to have a lake boat with an OB. This 1984 Hondo is far better than new and a show winner. No book of the month club option so the guy has been sitting on it asking $15,000. This boat is 30 years old and has 30 hours of use. The upgrades done are pretty intense and of course expensive. It also has the rear jumper seats so it can seat 7. What will it end up selling for :garfield:


Judged one of twenty best boats at the 2013 Needles Custom Car Show, 1984 Hondo "T-Deck" Pantera Outboard with 1984 Mercury 200HP Black Max engine. Boat and engine have approximately 30 hours of use. Hull is a custom layup with seven gel-coat colors , and gel-coated filled seam. The hull also features a reinforced (2 1/2 inches thick) transom, drivers foot operated recessed cavitation plates, drop thru turn fin, Mercury electric/hydraulic engine trim with control switches on steering wheel, stringer mounted custom gas peddle with adjustable throttle stop, stringer mounted custom instrument console with tach and engine trim gages, ignition switch, fuel tank selection lever and forward, neutral and reverse leaver, Interior Specialties back to back bucket and rear bench seats all color coordinated, two 10 gallon polished stainless steel Russell fuel tanks, all teflon stainless braided fuel, hydraulic, and bilge lines with polished SS reusable hose ends, custom heavy duty 6061-T6 polished and anodized aluminum engine bracket, all polished stainless fasteners used through boat and trailer, all aluminum is polished and black anodized 6061-T6. Hull rides on a gunmetal metallic gray custom Ellis trailer which features chrome fenders and floater bar, custom aluminum wheels, 4 new tires as of 2/2013, and a removable trailer tongue (for short garages). Custom pin striping and lettering by Steve Stanford. Boat is located in Tarzana, Ca. and ready to go. $15,000.00 (This boat/engine/trailer could not be purchased new today for twice the asking price) MUST SEE

duckhunter
07-22-2014, 10:08 AM
We could post good deals on old boats all day long! It's not quite as dramatic now as it was four or five years ago though, especially with larger boats. There were ridiculous, pennies on the dollar deals for 40-60' FBSF convertibles all over the place. Production boats from Viking/Hatt/Cabo, etc and even quite a few customs. A guy with $100 or $150k cash money could have stolen his dream boat. Florida was a bit of a perfect storm, since so many big boats were financed with artificial equity in homes. When the housing market crashed people found themselves way upside-down in their house and a big boat (and big loan) hanging like an anchor around their neck. They dumped the boats in an effort to stop the bleeding.

It created a domino effect on the used boat market. Once the $500k+ boats started moving at $100k, a lot of the stuff at the bottom end of the market was being offered at $30k or less. Sometimes way less. Great opportunity to buy a "fixer upper" sportfish. Seems like some guys went in with eyes wide open and got good deals and fixed up some cool old hulls. Others got in way over their heads. Lower cost of entry doesn't correlate to a lower cost of ownership; usually it's the exact opposite. Talk about a pain factory - imagine owning a 50' hunk of fiberglass with big, stinky old diesels, old fuel tanks, a genset or two, and all of the usual plumbing/HVAC/electronics/brightwork/pipework. Big boats are eating money 24/7; not like you can hide that thing in your backyard while you save up for a new outboard. It's either in a slip or on the hard, both of which you're paying for by the foot. Ouch.

I guess my point is just to put it in perspective a little; we all piss away some money on our small boats. Beats the heck out of golf IMO, and it could be way worse!

duckhunter
07-22-2014, 11:08 AM
Post the best deal you have currently run across on a 20 year old (or older) performance boat under 25' long DH.

I honestly don't watch that market very closely, other than what pops up on the various forums. Parnell's GT is my current benchmark in that size/price range. The best deals most likely never hit ebay/CL/Powerboat Listings/OSO/boattrader, etc, they sell by word-of-mouth to someone that knows the boat.

Here's a good FBSF example though, from the bottom of the market in 2010 or so. My buddy (of dh crew fame) found this in NC the day it hit the market for $45k. He went and checked it out and made an offer that was rejected. It percolated on the market for a few months, and all the sudden he had it under contract for $15k, subject to survey and sea trial. That turned out to be a lifesaver, because the stbd 8V71 melted down in epic fashion during the sea trial, while the mechanic was down in the engine room keeping an eye on things.

Our big plans to take a week to run it south to FL never happened. Now we joke about it, because if he'd bought a boat and had an engine take a dump running it home he'd probably be living on it now...

42' Post

8023180232802338023580234

Greg Guimond
07-22-2014, 11:14 AM
I thought you would have bought a go-fast Warlock by now to replace your bowrider :biggrin.:

duckhunter
07-22-2014, 11:25 AM
I thought you would have bought a go-fast Warlock by now to replace your bowrider :biggrin.:

I still dig the 23 MCOB! You had one posted on here with a 502 that really got the wheels turning. Sticking with the bowrider until I figure out what we're doing when we grow up. Sub 30' single diesel boats are calling to me as well...

Here's another solid deal that popped up on THT and sat on the market for a LONG time. Fairly rare 31 Tiara flybridge with lower helm and no salon; don't want to be stuck in a little cabin anyway, everything is happening in the cockpit. Perfect dayboat / weekender / mothership for the TN river. Crusader BBCs and A/C. It was up in the northeast (MA maybe?) and sold for around $16k. Third pic is of a sistership to give an idea of the layout. Neat boat.

8023880239 80240

Conquistador_del_mar
07-22-2014, 12:55 PM
Here is another example to spread the discussion beyond just Donzi's. This is a 1989 Hallett 240 Closed Bow. It is 100% stock and maintained with an open checkbook to like new condition including being kept inside a climate controlled garage by the owner. Has the proven 365hp 454 Magnum and B1 drive. Hallett has an outstanding reputation for build quality and the 240 is a tried and true hull design. It's a big 24 with an 8'4" beam. Closed Bow 240's are also hard to find as most were open bows. In addition, the gel colors are current for a 25 year old boat and the trailer is mint. The owner wants $30,000. If someone could finance the purchase it would be gone in a week but because you have to write a check for $30,000 who knows how long it will take. If you bought this boat new it would be over $100,000 with a non-blue motor.

Greg,
Would you please post a link to the yellow Hallett advertisement?

Greg Guimond
07-22-2014, 01:17 PM
Greg, Would you please post a link to the yellow Hallett advertisement?

Not until I get a measurement on how many inches your TW 23's Bravo prop shaft is below the keel :yes:

Conquistador_del_mar
07-22-2014, 01:34 PM
Not until I get a measurement on how many inches your TW 23's Bravo prop shaft is below the keel :yes:

I might get a chance to check that out today, but I don't think the drive will go down far enough on the trailer before hitting the skeg.. By the way, I got the cloth samples from Bill Sturgis to compare.

Greg Guimond
07-23-2014, 11:51 AM
Here is another example to spread the discussion beyond just Donzi's. This is a 1989 Hallett 240 Closed Bow. It is 100% stock and maintained with an open checkbook to like new condition including being kept inside a climate controlled garage by the owner. Has the proven 365hp 454 Magnum and B1 drive. Hallett has an outstanding reputation for build quality and the 240 is a tried and true hull design. It's a big 24 footer with an 8'4" beam. Closed Bow 240's are also hard to find as most were open bows. In addition, the gel colors are current for a 25 year old boat and the trailer is mint. The owner wants $30,000. If someone could finance the purchase it would be gone in a week but because you have to write a check for $30,000 who knows how long it will take. If you bought this boat new it would be over $100,000 with a non-blue motor.


Or maybe you are more inclined to have a lake boat with an OB. This 1984 Hondo 18' OB is far better than new and a show winner. No book of the month club option so the guy has been sitting on it asking $15,000. This boat is 30 years old and has 30 hours of use. The upgrades done are pretty intense and of course expensive. It also has the rear facing jumper seats so it can seat 7. The asking price is $15,000 but what will it end up selling for? :garfield:

Judged one of twenty best boats at the 2013 Needles Custom Car Show, 1984 Hondo "T-Deck" Pantera Outboard with 1984 Mercury 200HP Black Max engine. Boat and engine have approximately 30 hours of use. Hull is a custom layup with seven gel-coat colors , and gel-coated filled seam. The hull also features a reinforced (2 1/2 inches thick) transom, drivers foot operated recessed cavitation plates, drop thru turn fin, Mercury electric/hydraulic engine trim with control switches on steering wheel, stringer mounted custom gas peddle with adjustable throttle stop, stringer mounted custom instrument console with tach and engine trim gages, ignition switch, fuel tank selection lever and forward, neutral and reverse leaver, Interior Specialties back to back bucket and rear bench seats all color coordinated, two 10 gallon polished stainless steel Russell fuel tanks, all teflon stainless braided fuel, hydraulic, and bilge lines with polished SS reusable hose ends, custom heavy duty 6061-T6 polished and anodized aluminum engine bracket, all polished stainless fasteners used through boat and trailer, all aluminum is polished and black anodized 6061-T6. Hull rides on a gunmetal metallic gray custom Ellis trailer which features chrome fenders and floater bar, custom aluminum wheels, 4 new tires as of 2/2013, and a removable trailer tongue (for short garages). Custom pin striping and lettering by Steve Stanford. Boat is located in Tarzana, Ca. and ready to go. $15,000.00 (This boat/engine/trailer could not be purchased new today for twice the asking price) MUST SEE

.
Or maybe you like a wacker on the backer like me, but want an offshore deep v hull like a 22 Classic. If so, then this 1996 Superboat 24' would be a great fit and there are not a lot of them out there. It's not a Warlock but these Superboats are true 24 degree dead rise hulls with deep freeboard and a small cabin. This boat is in mint condition and turnkey ready to go with a 2011 Mercury 300XS OB and mint trailer. The Opti XS motors get incredible gas mileage while still pushing the boat to 75mph on GPS.

The price? Asking $24,900 but no "book of the month club" option so who knows what it will end up selling at :garfield:
.

duckhunter
07-23-2014, 01:50 PM
Nice rig!

mike o
07-23-2014, 05:08 PM
Nice rig!


I want one :yes: just like this

Only $12.5 ? :) Id look good "On Golden Pond" :kingme:

Greg Guimond
07-23-2014, 05:33 PM
Nice rig!

I had a 24 for a bit and liked it. A lot of eastern seabord people like the Superboat 24 because of the true cabin and wave crushing 24 degree V we all love and the narrow seven foot beam. It's also nice to be able to run for a 10 hour day with the family on $100 worth of gas with the Optimax 300. That said, the 300XS motor alone is $18,500 new, yet the owner can't get $25,000 for the whole darn rig and might accept $20k I suspect. :garfield:

Greg Guimond
07-23-2014, 10:26 PM
.
Now maybe someone wants "newer" as Bert had mentioned. You don't need to spend even close to $100,000. Here is a 2009 Sutphen 21 SSX OB with a 2009 Mercury 225 Optimax. This boat is in "as new" condition, freshwater use only, and turn key ready to go with several options. This is Richie Jr's new 21 design. The Sutphens have 40 years of boat building experience and a ton of racing wins. This particular 21' boat with the little fishin motor runs 72.8 on GPS. What would this hull do with a 300XS? Calculations say about 88mph. The exact same boat with a stock 525 Mercury blue race motor clocked 93.4mph on radar. Not bad for a round bottom, non pad hull design like a Donzi 22 Classic. Give Jeff a call and pay him $30,500 and go boating. The exact same boat is also for sale with a 377 Merc B1 package right now. That hull is a 2011.
.

Greg Guimond
07-23-2014, 11:56 PM
How about a "new" 16 footer like our 16s? No problem.......you can buy the brand new Tuff 16 with a Mercury 60hp EFI 4 stroke and do 61mph. Huh? Yes that is correct, a 60hp 4 stroke race motor on a 16 foot hull from Canada. 60hp for 61mph. That is technology at work when I think of Buizilla's Donzi 16 doing the exact same 61mph with TWICE the horsepower. Somewhere over the rainbow .......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjiYTz19oRY#t=27

TXDONZI
07-24-2014, 12:39 AM
If I had the coin this would be hanging behind the house. I too have a 22c that I would like to sell but fear the scrutiny will be way overwhelming with $25k invested 6 years ago I don’t have a clue where to start for an asking price.

http://www.campbellboatowners.org/b-her_queenship.html

Greg Guimond
07-24-2014, 12:44 AM
Am I seeing the price correctly at $55,000?

TXDONZI
07-24-2014, 09:30 AM
Am I seeing the price correctly at $55,000?

Yes that boat has been on the market for years and started out at $69k it was a $150k restore. That is a lot of boat and a exelent quality restoration for the money.

Not to mention its one of 3 and only 2 are left from what I have researched. It may be the only all glass one made too.

Here is a 28 too.

http://www.campbellboatowners.org/b-the_plug.html

Greg Guimond
07-24-2014, 12:03 PM
Yes that boat has been on the market for years and started out at $69k it was a $150k restore. That is a lot of boat and a exelent quality restoration for the money.

Not to mention its one of 3 and only 2 are left from what I have researched. It may be the only all glass one made too.

Here is a 28 too.

http://www.campbellboatowners.org/b-the_plug.html

woobs needs to buy that thing lol

woobs
07-24-2014, 08:19 PM
woobs needs to buy that thing lol

Not exactly my "cup of tea"...
Now, how about $6,000 for this project including it's deck?

80292

woobs
07-25-2014, 12:35 AM
80293

So, now what's the hold up?

Greg Guimond
07-29-2014, 04:43 PM
Here is another example to spread the discussion beyond just Donzi's. This is a 1989 Hallett 240 Closed Bow. It is 100% stock and maintained with an open checkbook to like new condition including being kept inside a climate controlled garage by the owner. Has the proven 365hp 454 Magnum and B1 drive. Hallett has an outstanding reputation for build quality and the 240 is a tried and true hull design. It's a big 24 footer with an 8'4" beam. Closed Bow 240's are also hard to find as most were open bows. In addition, the gel colors are current for a 25 year old boat and the trailer is mint. The owner wants $30,000. If someone could finance the purchase it would be gone in a week but because you have to write a check for $30,000 who knows how long it will take. If you bought this boat new it would be over $100,000 with a non-blue motor.


Or maybe you are more inclined to have a lake boat with an OB. This 1984 Hondo 18' OB is far better than new and a show winner. No book of the month club option so the guy has been sitting on it asking $15,000. This boat is 30 years old and has 30 hours of use. The upgrades done are pretty intense and of course expensive. It also has the rear facing jumper seats so it can seat 7. The asking price is $15,000 but what will it end up selling for? :garfield:

Judged one of twenty best boats at the 2013 Needles Custom Car Show, 1984 Hondo "T-Deck" Pantera Outboard with 1984 Mercury 200HP Black Max engine. Boat and engine have approximately 30 hours of use. Hull is a custom layup with seven gel-coat colors , and gel-coated filled seam. The hull also features a reinforced (2 1/2 inches thick) transom, drivers foot operated recessed cavitation plates, drop thru turn fin, Mercury electric/hydraulic engine trim with control switches on steering wheel, stringer mounted custom gas peddle with adjustable throttle stop, stringer mounted custom instrument console with tach and engine trim gages, ignition switch, fuel tank selection lever and forward, neutral and reverse leaver, Interior Specialties back to back bucket and rear bench seats all color coordinated, two 10 gallon polished stainless steel Russell fuel tanks, all teflon stainless braided fuel, hydraulic, and bilge lines with polished SS reusable hose ends, custom heavy duty 6061-T6 polished and anodized aluminum engine bracket, all polished stainless fasteners used through boat and trailer, all aluminum is polished and black anodized 6061-T6. Hull rides on a gunmetal metallic gray custom Ellis trailer which features chrome fenders and floater bar, custom aluminum wheels, 4 new tires as of 2/2013, and a removable trailer tongue (for short garages). Custom pin striping and lettering by Steve Stanford. Boat is located in Tarzana, Ca. and ready to go. $15,000.00 (This boat/engine/trailer could not be purchased new today for twice the asking price) MUST SEE



.Or maybe you like a wacker on the backer like me, but want an offshore deep v hull like a 22 Classic. If so, then this 1996 Superboat 24' OB 300XS would be a great fit and there are not a lot of them out there. It's not a Warlock but these Superboats are true 24 degree dead rise hulls with deep freeboard and a small cabin. This boat is in mint condition and turnkey ready to go with a 2011 Mercury 300XS OB and mint trailer. The Opti XS motors get incredible gas mileage while still pushing the boat to 75mph on GPS. The price? Asking $24,900 but no "book of the month club" option so who knows what it will end up selling at :garfield:

The three boats above are great used performance boat deals but sooner or later, any discussion on good performance boat values ends up at a Warlock's doorstep. This 1995 Ultimate Warlock 210 LXI Open Bow is the first small hi performance hull to be fitted with a Duramax Diesel. That must have been expensive just for the motor you say? You would be correct, but none of that "investment" really matters now as you can buy the entire mint condition rig and go 77mph for $30,000. And I'm not blowin any ............. smoke :rolleyes:

Just give Ken a call, he's had the boat for sale for over a year now with no takers at $30k. No monthly coupons though, only a bag full of benjamins!


1995 Ultimate Warlock 210 LXI – 650hp 6.6L Duramax Diesel - Over $60,000 Invested

Your viewing the first boat documented to be rigged with a modern GM Duramax diesel engine. In 2007 California base diesel performance specialists Pacific Performance Engineering “PPE” combined a pristine condition 21ft Warlock open bow hull, with a 2005 LLY Duramax modified to produce 650hp and 1300ft lbs of torque. The boat was fitted with custom fabricated 4” stainless steel thru hull exhaust, marine sea water pump, marine oil coolers, and a custom built water to air charge cooler. All electrical components like wiring harness, fuse blocks, and engine monitoring systems were specifically designed and fabricated to fit this engine setup.
Once the engine was ready, an out-drive with proper gearing capable of handling the Duramax power was needed. They equipped this boat with a brand new Mercury Marine Bravo1 XR stern drive unit featuring a 1.26:1 gear ratio. By mid 2007 the boat was completed and used for performance testing and advertising by PPE. In November 2007 the boat was featured in Diesel Power magazine, article available online here:
(http://www.dieselpowermag.com/features/0711dp_warlock_duramax_diesel_speedboat/)http://www.dieselpowermag.com/features/0711dp_warlock_duramax_diesel_speedboat/

I purchased this boat in late 2009 with about 50 hours on it. During the first summer of ownership an oil system restriction was discovered, the engine was removed and disassembled for inspection. At that time we decided to do a complete overhaul, updating it with the latest in Duramax performance parts. A complete list of upgrades is shown below. Since the overhaul the boat has performed flawlessly. It's been used exclusively on lakes and rivers from Florida to Canada. It's also been used for promoting Biodiesel fuel and is recognized as the worlds fastest Biodiesel powered boat. A video of this record setting run, along with several others of the boat are available here.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvd-w7lk1Eo)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvd-w7lk1Eo

The performance of this boat is unmatched by any production boats of this size. Beside running 80+ mph, the fuel mileage is incredible. Depending on chosen power settings, average mileage is between 5mpg and 7.5mpg. With an 85 gallon fuel tank, range exceeds 350 miles. Due to the sheer cost and difficulty of this boats build, today it remains one of only a few custom Duramax powered boats that I'm aware of. So it's highly unlikely you'll see another like it anywhere. To build another today would still cost over $50,000 in parts alone.
Powerplant - 2005 6.6L Duramax Diesel 650hp / 1250lbs torque. 150 hours since complete rebuild.



Block - +.30 Bore, New Cam Bushings
Crankshaft - .20/.20 Heat Treated with Clevite H Series Bearings
Pistons – Mahle 16.5:1 CR Polished Bowl, Valve Reliefs, Graphite Coated Skirts
Rods- Polished Beam, New Wrist-pin Bushings
Camshaft – Keyed Stock Grind
High Volume Oil Pump
Oversized Piston Oilers
ARP Head Studs
PPE High Flow Exhaust Manifolds with Stainless Up-Pipes
PPE Water Cooled Stainless Steel T-4 Pedestal
PPE / Inconel Marine Heat Shields
Turbo - GT4094R Ball Bearing Water Cooled
4” Turbo Velocity Stack
Intake - Custom 3” Y-pipe
CP3 – Modified Pump with Oversized Inlet and Rail Fittings
PPE Race Fuel Valve
Injectors – Extrude Honed + 50% Oversize
PPE 190lph Lift Pump
Charge Cooler – Custom Aluminum Water Over Air
PPE Internal Oil Cooler Delete
Remote Oil Cooler and HP6 Filter Mount
PPE Marine Billet Flywheel
Engine Controls – EFIlive Custom Tunes, DSP5 Driver Selectable, DT Mixture Controller
Engine and Turbo Powder Coated Metallic Blue




Drive - 2007 Bravo 1 XR 1.26:1 Ratio with 240 hours



IMCO Prop Shaft Upgrade
Drive Shower
Custom Built Lab Finished 15” Dia by 35” Pitch 5 Blade Prop
Custom Built Lab Finished 15 1/4” Dia by 37” Pitch 5 Blade Prop


Electronics



Autometer Marine Analog Gauges
2 PPE J-Bus Engine Monitor Displays
Dakota Digital GPS Speed Sender
Hawkeye Digital Depth Gauge
Sony Stereo w Sirius Adapter
Dual Optima Marine Batteries
Power Hatch Lift
New Bilge Blower 2013
New Bilge Pump 2011


Also included with this auction is a 2007 Pacific trailer with hydraulic surge brakes, original LXI sun shade, custom bow cover and a full waterproof boat cover. Besides a few marks on the rub rails from normal use, this boat is in excellent shape inside and out, much better condition than most boats it's age. We are only selling this because we just purchased a larger boat to be fitted with twin Duramax engines. I encourage anyone seriously interested to contact me with any questions. If your close come go for a ride, it was on the water earlier today. Contact Ken @ 740-603-0725 with any questions.

Greg Guimond
07-29-2014, 04:51 PM
Smoke 'em if you got 'em .......................1995 Ultimate Warlock 21' LXI Duramax Diesel. 77mph, $30,000 and downright cheap to run :yes: Why couldn't he have installed that Duramax in an Offshore 23.

Mr X
07-30-2014, 07:48 AM
It really bugs me to think that I could have had Ted's Ilmor 22 for quite a bit less then I have in my current 22. If the cash were there I would have snatched that boat up fast and put mine on the market.

Yea, what was I thinking? Glad its back home with me.
Stay tuned for pics of m X-18 full make over. :)

mattyboy
07-30-2014, 09:11 AM
if you are a member of any of the power boat FB pages there are some killer deals on what I would call the next tier up from entry level go fasts the 24-30 foot range making the first time buyer $$$$$ get way more boat why buy a 16-22 footer when i can get a 24-30 footer for the same price. There have been a few deals local that have me pondering selling the hornet and buying my last boat something around 27-29 feet

Greg Guimond
07-30-2014, 03:20 PM
Smoke 'em if you got 'em .......................1995 Ultimate Warlock 21' LXI Duramax Diesel. 77mph, $30,000 and downright cheap to run :yes:

Matty, why would you need a bigger boat on a lake?

This 21' Warlock has a 650hp Duramax diesel AND my price of $30,000 was wrong. The owner wants $23,000. You will be the only guy on your lake that has an 80mph smoker that gets like, 5 times the gas mileage of your current boat. Not an ocean boat, but at $23,000 one hell of a lake boat for haulin the peeps with 1100lbs of torque :eek: It's a short drive to Ohio.

Greg Guimond
09-24-2014, 10:04 PM
Here is another example to spread the discussion beyond just Donzi's. This is a 1989 Hallett 240 Closed Bow. It is 100% stock and maintained with an open checkbook to like new condition including being kept inside a climate controlled garage by the owner. Has the proven 365hp 454 Magnum and B1 drive. Hallett has an outstanding reputation for build quality and the 240 is a tried and true hull design. It's a big 24 with an 8'4" beam. Closed Bow 240's are also hard to find as most were open bows. In addition, the gel colors are current for a 25 year old boat and the trailer is mint. The owner wants $30,000. If someone could finance the purchase it would be gone in a week but because you have to write a check for $30,000 who knows how long it will take. If you bought this boat new it would be over $100,000 with a non-blue motor.


Greg,
Would you please post a link to the yellow Hallett advertisement?


Not until I get a measurement on how many inches your TW 23's Bravo prop shaft is below the keel.

.
So here we are two months later and used boat prices are dropping like a rock as Winter approaches. Earlier I posted a 1989 Hallet 240 closed deck above, in mint condition and asking $30k. Two months later and you can buy the same boat but as a 1992. It has identical yellow gel colors and the 1992 even has the better 390hp Magnum 502 Bravo combo. You'd think the price would at least be the same $30k given it is 3 years newer and has a better motor, right? $30,000?

Nope, actually the seller of the 1992 wants $16,000 :eek: Hallett build quality is exceptional. The 240 has been in there line-up for 20 years. To find a closed bow at this price is an amazing opportunity :yes:
.

roadtrip se
09-26-2014, 09:51 PM
Boutique builders on the west coast do not drive the boat values across the industry. Look at Cigarette, Nortech, Outerlimits, MTI, and Skater. The values of these boats are holding their own, and gaining. What does a Hallet or a Warlock have to do with the value of a Donzi Classic, any way? Want to know why there are so few Donzi Classics available on the market? No one has to give them away, and most won't. These boats are being sold back channel.

Greg Guimond
09-26-2014, 10:16 PM
Boutique builders on the west coast do not drive the boat values across the industry. Look at Cigarette, Nortech, Outerlimits, MTI, and Skater. The values of these boats are holding their own, and gaining. What does a Hallet or a Warlock have to do with the value of a Donzi Classic, any way? Want to know why there are so few Donzi Classics available on the market? No one has to give them away, and most won't. These boats are being sold back channel.

Really Road? I'd say very few people of the performance boat "population" have the bank to buy a 30'-50' Nortech, Outerlimits, MTI or a cat. The few that do really don't care much about depreciation anyway even if they depreciate less than most. Hallet, while on the West, is far from a boutique builder. There are a ton of Classics available on the used market and only a handful change hands back channel. And in closing, your right my posting a mint Hallett 240 that one month is priced at $30,000 and then drops by half has absolutely nothing to do with the value of a Donzi. It's just an outstanding deal.

roadtrip se
09-27-2014, 01:05 PM
Really Road? I'd say very few people of the performance boat "population" have the bank to buy a 30'-50' Nortech, Outerlimits, MTI or a cat. The few that do really don't care much about depreciation anyway even if they depreciate less than most. Hallet, while on the West, is far from a boutique builder. There are a ton of Classics available on the used market and only a handful change hands back channel. And in closing, your right my posting a mint Hallett 240 that one month is priced at $30,000 and then drops by half has absolutely nothing to do with the value of a Donzi. It's just an outstanding deal.

Greg, I went back and read this entire thread, before posting last night. You have argued my points here, and pretty much everywhere else on the .net, so why stop now?

My point of listing the premiere boat builders in the business is to make the point that the entire performance boat market is not in the tank, and it isn't. There are buys to be had in this arena, but not for the I got me a steal on this offshore dreamer crowd. You get what you pay for. There are some very nice twin step Cigs and Fountains out there that can be bought fairly reasonable too, but far from steals.

Deal or not, Hallett is hardly a main stream boat make. You buy it, you better plan on keeping it for awhile, and it's reflects in the price you pay. No one wants one. Same goes for the Warlocks I notice you like to post.

In comparison to the boutique makes, there are one heck of a lot of Classics out there, and when you look at the general population, not many are for sale. And as for the real nice ones owned by those who are willing to wait, they are bringing a fair price.

VetteLT193
09-29-2014, 07:21 PM
Warlocks, halletts, and eliminators are west coast boats. Look at the Mohave Craigslist where there will be pages of halletts and probably no classic Donzi's.

Boats are very geographic. There are probably west coasters saying that Donzi's are not mainstream boats.:bonk:

And it is not hard to get a loan on an old boat. This assumes you have good credit and make decent money.

Classic Donzi's are similar to corvettes. Everyone wants one (east coast anyway) but they also tend to want a decent deal. Some wait and get more by finding just the right buyer. They are easy to keep around because they are fun for even occasional use. On the west coast same goes for the west coast brands....

Pat McPherson
10-08-2014, 10:07 PM
I read the thread and lots of good info/opinions shared. Not sure this is the intent of the thread but, I'll ask anyway.

What's my 22' Classic worth?
1996 with 250 total hours, 502Mag with something less that 250hours, Gil Exhaust, K-Plans, bla bla bla, 2004 Alum trailer.

gcarter
10-09-2014, 09:59 AM
Hire a reputable surveyor and let him do his thing.
If he reports the boat structure in good condition, the esthetics are good, and it runs well, then
it should be between $20-$30K.
Read my intro post about condition and be real honest w/yourself about the overall condition though.
Sellers think their boats are a "1", and buyers think your boat is a "4" or a "5".

Pat McPherson
10-09-2014, 11:30 AM
Hire a reputable surveyor and let him do his thing.
If he reports the boat structure in good condition, the esthetics are good, and it runs well, then
it should be between $20-$30K.
Read my intro post about condition and be real honest w/yourself about the overall condition though.
Sellers think their boats are a "1", and buyers think your boat is a "4" or a "5".

May boat is a 3. She's not perfect but is structurally & mechanically sound, everything works, and shows like a 5 year old boat not an 18 year old boat. My guess is mid 20s...
Thanks!

roadtrip se
10-09-2014, 10:16 PM
Hire a reputable surveyor and let him do his thing.
If he reports the boat structure in good condition, the esthetics are good, and it runs well, then
it should be between $20-$30K.
Read my intro post about condition and be real honest w/yourself about the overall condition though.
Sellers think their boats are a "1", and buyers think your boat is a "4" or a "5".

Good advice from George.

Pat McPherson
10-10-2014, 08:41 AM
Good advice from George.
I bought my boat from a very reputable mechanic/marina owner that had gone thru her with the original plan to keep the boat as his own toy.
He invested his time and $ bringing the engine drive system back to 100%. The list was fairly long so I'll not bore you all. As for the hull, there are no signs of an issues, and I have checked the transom and stringers with a moisture meter. I'm not quire sure what more a survey would tell me at this point; it would be another opionion that a buyer would likely value over mine...

mattyboy
10-11-2014, 09:35 AM
the classics have always held their value well, and all that has been said about condition and care is true.Lately the older more rare/unique classics have started to sell at high values about in the range of what newer ones are selling for . This market is driven by the buyers and some prices I thought were high but the buyers are paying it so i guess the market is going up. Complete unstarted projects have sold for good money , the buyers looking to do a project themselves are willing to pay for all the little things. Well maybe not so little things like interior and hardware the hard to find or big money to one off items are driving the price up.

Example a 1998 22 classic 385 VP DPX for sale by me is mid 20s about what my 1968 benchseat is worth in its current condition. I think it will be time to test the waters this coming spring. We are looking for something a bit bigger

scippy
10-12-2014, 12:14 AM
I think it will be time to test the waters this coming spring. We are looking for something a bit bigger

Matty...........Staying in the Aronow line of boating? -or- looking outside?

mattyboy
10-12-2014, 08:45 AM
Matty...........Staying in the Aronow line of boating? -or- looking outside?

we love the hornet it rides great and is cool as hell but it just doesn't fit our boating needs It was on a lift all year and never in the water for more than few hours at a time and I will to spend a day cleaning the bottom. It doesn't fit at raft ups and we are too worried about the boat to actually enjoy boating. We figure a small toon to leave in the water here at my lake and a 22-25 OB challenger /superboat/progression to trailer around. My Daughter just got a place in CT near the sound we would like to go up there and boat with her. The hornet is not going back in salt water.