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View Full Version : 1990 Team Warlock 23 Offshore - The Survivor



Greg Guimond
03-22-2014, 01:59 PM
Ok Bill, that boat must have arrived by now. Spill the beans and post 'em when you got 'em. Remember I'm next in line when you decide to sell it. :)

Conquistador_del_mar
03-22-2014, 02:19 PM
Greg,
If you ever need another prop or something else from me, it will be my treat for turning me on to this Warlock. I just finished toweling off the rain and am about to leave the house with it hooked up. Thanks again!!

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?67433-Team-Warlock-23-Not-Mine&p=649793#post649793

BUIZILLA
03-22-2014, 03:10 PM
and to think, at our age all it takes is a good boat deal for a happy ending.. LOL :propeller: :jestera:

Greg Guimond
03-22-2014, 03:14 PM
I could not be any more pleased with the boat!! Unfortunately, it started raining within 10 minutes of arriving. The driver told me it did not rain all the way here from Vegas. The pictures will probably show how immaculate the boat is if you can see past the raindrops, and the engine is unbelievable! Greg, it is a cored hull as you guessed!! I almost didn't have to crawl up front after knocking on the hull and hearing the solid sides, but I did. Some of the surprises are the new looking K-planes with trim indicators on the dash, high quality parts on the engine, new MSD system with the 6M box, Teague valve covers, trick trim pump, polished IMCO Powerflow exhaust system, new Gaffrig gauges and bezels, Gaffrig water pressure and oil temp gauges, depth sounder, very nice upholstery which does not really need work in my book. The gelcoat even looks wonderful. The only thing I am almost sure I will replace is the rubrail since the vinyl appears to have shrunk and broke in a few places. Yeller, I was going to report the negatives, but it is not possible - :wink: I'll be hooking up and taking it to storage in a few minutes.

Now this one will be very interesting to watch unfold.......

Although it is a bit tough to tell from the photo what colors are used, I am fairly confident that the gelcoat would have been a custom order from Stolarz back in 1990. Keith can confirm that. The pattern (5 color fade) is identical to all the other 23 Offshores I have seen, but not the actual colors as they look to be unique.. The d-cell core option (epic score) was something I suspected that HIN would have and you've now confirmed it Bill. Your new boat is a 1990 TPI build while the first 23 Offshores came out of the mold in early 1987. A gentleman by the name of Don Kirby did a lot of the high end lay-up work on these hulls although Stolarz designed the schedule from what I can tell. Kirby passed away but was "the man" when it came to SoCal glass guys.

Very, very interesting. Geez, this deal will stand as the best deal for all of 2014. Nothing will touch it. Remember, I've got first dibs once you decide to move on :doh:

Conquistador_del_mar
03-22-2014, 05:20 PM
and to think, at our age all it takes is a good boat deal for a happy ending.. LOL :propeller: :jestera:

Yes, Jim. Doesn't take much now :wink:

Conquistador_del_mar
03-22-2014, 05:51 PM
Now this one will be very interesting to watch unfold.......

Although it is a bit tough to tell from the photo what colors are used, I am fairly confident that the gelcoat would have been a custom order from Stolarz back in 1990. Keith can confirm that. The pattern (5 color fade) is identical to all the other 23 Offshores I have seen, but not the actual colors as they look to be unique.. The d-cell core option (epic score) was something I suspected that HIN would have and you have now confirmed it Bill. Your new boat is a 1990 TPI build while the first 23 Offshores came out of the mold in early 1987. A gentleman by the name of Don Kirby did a lot of the high end lay-up work on these hulls although Stolarz designed the schedule from what I can tell. Kirby passed away but was "the man" when it came to SoCal glass guys.

Very, very interesting. Geez, this deal will stand as the best deal for all of 2014. Nothing will touch it. Remember, I've got first dibs once you decide to move on :doh:

I just finished pulling all the gear out and backing the boat into the only available stall that I had saved for the Warlock. I had a chance to check everything out except for actually firing the engine (it cranks) and all the lights work and the gauges appear to work. I did not find even one flaw in the gelcoat even at the bow! No paint - all gelcoat and not faded at all! The colors are white to light gray to dark gray to maroon/burgundy to black. Absolutely awesome boat and appointments! Keith included 3 ss props, 3 covers, the old exhaust tips and steering wheel, a large packet of documents, a really nice aluminum Danforth anchor with line, ropes, fluids, life jackets, and a soccer ball - lol. There are more things in the boxes that I did not check out yet. I feel like the luckiest buyer right now. I will try to think of something for your Warlock tip! That's all the typing I can do right now on my IPad.

Conquistador_del_mar
03-22-2014, 07:40 PM
I took some more pictures as I was leaving this evening. Have you ever seen a trim pump like this one? It appears to be polished or anodized aluminum, but I still can't read the name at the bottom. One of the pictures shows the ss Hardin water pump and another shows the true colors.

Conquistador_del_mar
03-22-2014, 07:51 PM
So that Keith's original ad copy can be seen, I copied and pasted from his advertisement.

23' Warlock 454cid 525hp Dart big M cast iron block, 91/2 to 1 compression, Holly 830 carb, MSD ign system w/rev limiter & MSD distributor, Crane hydraulic roller Cam w/roller lifters & gold roller rockers, Manley S/S intake valves & Inconel exhaust valves, engine was built by Morgan's Racing engines - walnut creek ca, Imco aluminum exhaust manifolds w/ S/S risers, Cyclone S/S mufflers tips, K-plane trim tabs w/indicators, Imco hydraulic ram external steering, Gaffrig gauges, MerCruiser Bravo drive w/shower, dual batteries w/switch, Halon fire sys, Hardin S/S sea pump, 3-S/S 3 blade props 23"-24"-25", 260 hrs on hull 12hrs on engine, fresh water only, V&M trailer with New- S/S disc brakes & hubs & master cylinder & aluminum rims & tires & wood rails with carpet. 85mph @ sea level 80mph @ lake mead, orig owner and excellent cond.

BUIZILLA
03-22-2014, 08:12 PM
are you going to be able to sleep tonight? LMAO :jestera:

Conquistador_del_mar
03-22-2014, 08:19 PM
are you going to be able to sleep tonight? LMAO :jestera:

Nope :nilly:. As soon as my wife gets home from work, I'll be taking her out to see it.

Conquistador_del_mar
03-22-2014, 08:33 PM
After doing some reading from the packet, it turns out Keith had the K planes with indicators added when he bought the boat for an additional $1400 upgrade from the Bennetts. He included the original buyer form, the Morgan's Racing Engines receipts showing everything that was done on the new engine and a booklet of pictures when they built the engine (painted with black epoxy), the original Mercruiser manuals, the depth gauge manual, the IMCO steering manual, and the Fireboy Halon manual. The boat has 257 hours running time and 12 hours approximately on the new engine. Those "ss grab handles" on the floor of the boat were called footrests according to the Warlock buyer sheet - kind of different.

Conquistador_del_mar
03-22-2014, 11:13 PM
Ok Bill, that boat must have arrived by now. Spill the beans and post 'em when you got 'em. Remember I'm next in line :)

Greg,
I forgot to mention that Keith also sent one of those 23' Warlock brochures with the packet of info.

yeller
03-23-2014, 02:00 AM
Awesome buy Bill. Still can't believe the price you paid. Heck, I can't believe the price Keith listed it for, so to get it for less is unbelievable. Probably the best factory color I've seen too.
Most definitely will be deal of the year. :yes:

Dave911
03-23-2014, 02:13 AM
Congrats. Some boat. That white one in Temecula CA is about 50 miles from my house. After seeing yours, I'm really tempted to go for a look-see. I'll be needing a boat for Austin TX - where I'm heading wth the family soon. Anyway - enough about me. Congrats again. Use her in good health. Dave

Conquistador_del_mar
03-23-2014, 02:51 AM
Awesome buy Bill. Still can't believe the price you paid. Heck, I can't believe the price Keith listed it for, so to get it for less is unbelievable. Probably the best factory color I've seen too.
Most definitely will be deal of the year. :yes:

I will admit that I was shocked at the end of my conversation with Keith when he told me $10k would buy it, but I was more shocked when I saw what he sold to me. He is an outrageously honest seller! My wife asked if he was selling anything else - lol.

Conquistador_del_mar
03-23-2014, 02:56 AM
Congrats. Some boat. That white one in Temecula CA is about 50 miles from my house. After seeing yours, I'm really tempted to go for a look-see. I'll be needing a boat for Austin TX - where I'm heading wth the family soon. Anyway - enough about me. Congrats again. Use her in good health. Dave

Dave, I think you will be surprised at the quality of build and ride. I hope you don't plan to boat at Lake Travis since it is so low. If you ever want, make the 4 hour drive up here to Lake Texoma and I can take you out or we can meet and boat together.

Greg Guimond
03-23-2014, 04:28 AM
I took some more pictures as I was leaving this evening. Have you ever seen a trim pump like this one? It appears to be polished or anodized aluminum, but I still can't read the name at the bottom. One of the pictures shows the ss Hardin water pump and another shows the true colors.

I've never seen that trim pump. Maybe get a piece of etching paper and use a pencil to take an imprint like kids do on memorials to see what the lettering says. The interior is original. It should have "Team Warlock World Class Boats" stitched in. They used a very unique fabric that is almost burlap like. The foot rests were also standard issue. They used round stock so that the passenger can wedge there feet under the bar to help from getting thrown out of the boat. Team Warlock loved carpeting, it was standard to carpet the engine bay. I've always wondered where they hid the second secret HIN on these boats. If you find it as you work over the boat please let me know. It looks like you also have an optional snap down carpet over the floor carpeting as well as heavy duty Wind-Aways. The SS windshield stanchion became standard with the later build years whereas you do not have the hatch cover SS surround. There might be small tell tale holes in the deck cap that would say if it was there at one point. Keith may have deleted it when he ordered the boat if the holes aren't there.

There were rumors that the stringers were wrapped in carbon fiber which I could never substantiate. The Divinycell core option with AME4000 resin was expensive, I believe about a $4,600 up charge back in 1990. These hulls have the deck fully glassed to the hull. The hull is stiff yet still very light. I believe that the 23 hull with the core option weighed in at 1350lbs. Compare that to a 1,000lb Donzi 16 hull! The gel colors used are definitely a special order one-off. In fact upon closer inspection it looks like there is not much fade involved? There would not have been an upcharge for this but you won't ever see another one with those colors. You also have some things that may have been incorporated into later builds. The fore to aft storage slot next to both bucket seats and then continuing forward under the deck where the white cushion is wedged in your photo is one. Perhaps they closed it by the buckets creating an open bin where things could not roll backwards into the gunnel area and get lost. That hinged upholstered hatch all the way at the bow snout is another.

Pay attention to the gas tank. They used two fabricators back then. One very good and one not so good from what I've learned. A low pressure test might be in order for peace of mind at 80mph. The rub rail material was known to have problems over time. I'm not sure but maybe they shrank over the years which caused it create a gap crack. I'm sure if Mr. Carter sees this thread he would have a few suggestions as to what epoxy you could mix up to properly create a matching profile and then fill any gaps for a short term solution.

Now on performance, I will be very interested to see if the drives propshaft centerline is 4 1/4" below the keel. This would be my guess. The other thing is what you'll find when you run that Bravo's sn# to see what it comes back with. Your boat may have been built early enough in 1990 that Tom Stolarz used a leftover 1989 Bravo One. The 1989's had a slightly smaller bullet than the 1990 and beyond so if you have a 1989 that will help with speed. I don't see 85mph on GPS but I do see a legit 80. These hulls are fast even with the true 24 degree pointy V. Several of them ran SBC power making about 400 ponies and were competitive with slightly larger BBC powered boats. Curious what props Keith gave you, size will be telling. Those expensive monster K planes are needed on these 23'6' hulls with there very narrow 6'6" beam. What is interesting is the size they seem to be. What model are they? How long? If I'm not mistaken you could sell those alone tomorrow for $1,500. The standard issue was Bennet dual ram shorties.

As to the motor, I don't know chit about car motors so I'll be going to school as you and other forum members figure out what 'cha got there Bill. The mill certainly looks impressive in the pic.

That's all for now ............ :drive:

Conquistador_del_mar
03-23-2014, 01:31 PM
Greg, thank you for all the thoughts. According to the fuel gauge, the tank is a little over 1/2 full or should be 30+ gallons which I will likely burn elsewhere as per Keith's suggestion even though he added Stabil, but there is no detectable fuel leak at this point. I'll try to get a name off the trim pump which really looks trick and works, too. The trim tabs and indicators also work perfectly. My mechanic friend told me yesterday that the Bravo appeared to be a longer lower typical of a newer drive, but Keith did not tell me the drive had ever been replaced. I'm guessing it is a 1990 instead of the 1989 which would account for the difference. Yes, Warlock is stitched into the gray cloth material. I'll get around to making some drive depth measurements. By the way, I believe I measured the centerline at 23' 4".

MDonziM
03-23-2014, 08:46 PM
Great boat Bill! A good friend of mine had a 23' years ago and its a very predictable solid boat. (with a stock 385hp merc) and fast. Can't wait to hear how yours performs.
Congrats
- M

Conquistador_del_mar
03-24-2014, 02:31 AM
Thanks Marshall. This one originally had the 365Mag/Bravo package, but the original owner changed to a nicely built 525HP. I have only had one boat that could run over 85MPH - the Eliminator. It won't be long before I can take it out and report on its performance. It sure is in awesome condition especially considering it is 24 years old.

Conquistador_del_mar
03-25-2014, 09:02 PM
A few more pictures I took this afternoon while checking it out.

MDonziM
03-25-2014, 11:40 PM
Wow. How about an engine shot?

Conquistador_del_mar
03-25-2014, 11:57 PM
Wow. How about an engine shot?

There you go Marshall. It just dawned on me that this Warlock is the newest model boat that I have and it it 24 years old - :rlol:

Conquistador_del_mar
03-28-2014, 02:49 AM
I look forward to firing the engine soon. After checking it out more, it has a nice oil cooler with the thermostatically controlled valve and what appears to be an 8 qt pan. Keith told me the Bravo coupler is new when he had the new engine built and installed. Onwards.

MDonziM
03-28-2014, 10:03 AM
The engine looks nice Bill, I wish my Donzi had valve cover breathers like those, mine push out oil at high rpm. I wonder why he ran the wire harness connector where it is? What is the cylinder looking thing mounted just above the rev limiter?

Thanks - Marshall

Conquistador_del_mar
03-28-2014, 11:50 AM
The engine looks nice Bill, I wish my Donzi had valve cover breathers like those, mine push out oil at high rpm. I wonder why he ran the wire harness connector where it is? What is the cylinder looking thing mounted just above the rev limiter?

Thanks - Marshall

The cylinder above the rev limiter is the drive fluid reservoir.

yeller
03-28-2014, 08:24 PM
I wonder why he ran the wire harness connector where it is? I saw that too. Horrible workmanship! In that engine pic you can also see how the interior is starting to break down. That boat is junk Bill! Junk I'm tellin' ya!

I'll help you out though. Even in its poor condition, I think I might be able to make 50 - 60 bucks profit on it up here.
So....just out of the goodness of my heart........I'll take it off your hands.......AND give you everything you've spent on it so far!


Wow! I can't believe how generous I am.

:biggrin.::biggrin.:

Conquistador_del_mar
03-29-2014, 02:23 PM
I saw that too. Horrible workmanship! In that engine pic you can also see how the interior is starting to break down. That boat is junk Bill! Junk I'm tellin' ya!

I'll help you out though. Even in its poor condition, I think I might be able to make 50 - 60 bucks profit on it up here.
So....just out of the goodness of my heart........I'll take it off your hands.......AND give you everything you've spent on it so far!


Wow! I can't believe how generous I am.

:biggrin.::biggrin.:

Now that is exactly what friends do to each other :yes: (I mean for each other).
One of the riggers at Derebery Marine next door to my business saw the Warlock and commented on how nicely the engine wiring was done. He is also the one who noticed the thermostatically controlled oil cooler under the port side of the engine.

Conquistador_del_mar
03-29-2014, 08:39 PM
I left the charger on the batteries this afternoon and plan to fire the engine on the hose tomorrow to check everything out :yes:

Conquistador_del_mar
03-30-2014, 07:49 PM
I pumped about 25 gallons of fuel from the Warlock into my Chevy dually, added 2 cans of Seafoam and pumped 27 gallons of premium into the boat. It fired up and ran perfectly with no glitches! The only gauge that did not seem to work was the water pressure gauge. The exhaust has a really nice rumble due to the silencer tips. It is ready for a test run.

CHACHI
03-31-2014, 07:21 AM
All good news, congrats .

Ken

Conquistador_del_mar
03-31-2014, 12:47 PM
Here is the trim pump reservoir on the Warlock which I found while looking for some parts. http://www.cpperformance.com/p-290-billet-aluminum-trim-tank-reservoir.aspx

Conquistador_del_mar
03-31-2014, 12:49 PM
All good news, congrats .

Ken

Thanks Ken - I am really looking forward to taking it out which might be next weekend.

Conquistador_del_mar
04-06-2014, 02:07 PM
47 degrees and rain at noon today so a test run will have to wait :nilly:.

lars
04-15-2014, 08:39 AM
Haven't kept up with the forum lately, but beautiful things are happening. Congratulations Bill. Seems like You and Greg have founded a dream team. You keep finding gems like these and you'll be the Jay Leno of boating. Can't wait to see some video of your fleet in action this season. Keep it up. Warmed my heart to see this.

Cheers, Lars.

Conquistador_del_mar
04-16-2014, 02:43 AM
Haven't kept up with the forum lately, but beautiful things are happening. Congratulations Bill. Seems like You and Greg have founded a dream team. You keep finding gems like these and you'll be the Jay Leno of boating. Can't wait to see some video of your fleet in action this season. Keep it up. Warmed my heart to see this.

Cheers, Lars.

Hi Lars,
Thank you for making notice of the newest member of my family of boats - :yes:. If it all turns out like I think it will, it will be the best deal I probably ever made on buying a boat. I actually bought it for a friend while he was out of the country for a month on a trip, but when he got home he told me he had bought a Donzi 22' in Florida that his brother found for him. I am actually glad it all worked out like it did! What boat or boats do you have right now? You always have something different and cool. Bill

lars
04-16-2014, 04:59 AM
Wow, I know this is a Donzi forum and all, but it would take quite a 22 to make me chose it over this Warlock. Well, not like he had a choice and the merrier for you.
I only have the Schiada left now. After the bounce back from our re-location attempt to Sweden I wasn't sure were to settle down in The U.S. again. Going through those motions and a few failed investment ventures I found myself with a couple of starved piggybanks and decided to sell my Stoker 204SST and the Flying Flipper 29'. Not too happy with myself at the moment, but I'm eyeing a 1987 Larry Smith Team Scarab 26 and when the owner lets go I'm ready. He's thinking it over :yes:

Conquistador_del_mar
04-16-2014, 02:43 PM
I am really sorry to hear about your business investment ventures and not getting to move to Sweden right now. Are you presently in California? I hope things turn back around for you this year. As long as a diehard boater has at least one wave buster, he should probably be content - right? The Larry Smith Scarab will be icing on the cake so I hope you get it :yes:.

Greg Guimond
04-16-2014, 09:53 PM
Same here Lars, one of life's major speed bumps (I had a big one this week) but keep the faith. You will rebound for sure. You always have some great history on various unique boats, I really enjoy reading what you come up with on those history pieces. If you are back in Cali maybe we should have you find the elusive Tom Stolarz. You could get the full run down of these Team Warlock's. He would probably remember Bill's boat as it was in fact a special order (found my notes) for gelcoat colors. The rumor is that he also made two OB Team Warlock 23's working with Yamaha for the introduction of there stout 220 Special. He is rumored to be in the greater Corona area these days. I would think just about 70. I was thinking of calling Ken Burns to have him do a docu-drama!

Greg Guimond
04-16-2014, 10:03 PM
Bill, when you sort out your (don't forget I have first dibs!) new 23 I have two folks you might want to eyeball. One is running a Spinelli 4 blade and clocking 92mph on a Team Warlock 23 Offshore, and the other is running a stock Bravo 1 wheel and laying down 86mph on GPS with a Team Warlock 24 Euro. Should be interesting to see how your 23 Offshore runs :yes:

duckhunter
04-16-2014, 10:43 PM
Bill, when you sort out your (don't forget I have first dibs!) new 23 I have two folks you might want to eyeball. One is running a Spinelli 4 blade and clocking 92mph on a Team Warlock 23 Offshore, and the other is running a stock Bravo 1 wheel and laying down 86mph on GPS with a Team Warlock 24 Euro. Should be interesting to see how your 23 Offshore runs :yes:

What kinda power? 600ish? These things are fantastically efficient for the amount of deadrise.

23 MCOB with subtle graphics (preferably blue), XR, HP500, and a big stereo is starting to call my name...

Can't wait to hear how this one runs on Texoma. Get after it Bill!

Greg Guimond
04-16-2014, 10:51 PM
What kinda power? 600ish? These things are fantastically efficient for the amount of deadrise.

23 MCOB with subtle graphics (preferably blue), XR, HP500, and a big stereo is starting to call my name...

Can't wait to hear how this one runs on Texoma. Get after it Bill!

There is no Team Warlock 23 Offshore with a mid cabin open bow.
The 92mph GPS number was clocked with a 540 making 680hp and 700lbs of torque not that I understand if these are good or bad #'s. Remember though that these hulls weigh 1350lbs naked.

duckhunter
04-16-2014, 11:02 PM
There is no Team Warlock 23 Offshore with a mid cabin open bow.
The 92mph GPS number was clocked with a 540 making 680hp and 700lbs of torque not that I understand if these are good or bad #'s. Remember though that these hulls weigh 1350lbs naked.

Breaking 90 in a 23 at that power level is still impressive; I actually thought it would be in the 600-650 range.

The later 23 XRI are still good runners, right? Never liked Left Coast boats in the past but I'm kinda coming around. Unfortunately Donzi ain't so great in the speedy bowrider department until you get to the 35ZR, and clearly that's not happening.

I need a bowrider for as long as my daughter is willing to hang out on the boat with us. After that, going to a bigger boat with twins and a stabbin' cabin! :idea: :pimptwo: :party:

Greg Guimond
04-16-2014, 11:08 PM
Haven't kept up with the forum lately, but beautiful things are happening. Congratulations Bill. Seems like You and Greg have founded a dream team. Cheers, Lars.

Lars, you may have some insights on this as your friend had a rare Howard "23 Offshore" I believe. There is some confusion over the origins of the 23's from Team Warlock and Howard. This is only my opinion based on some research but I believe that Gene at Howard somehow developed his 23 Offshore (only 12 made?) by starting with the purchase of a 1985 Crusader 23 and then adding a delta pad. Do you know if this is accurate? On the other side, I believe that Team Warlock founder Tom Stolarz, seeing that the Crusader 23 hull was winning so many races in 1985, decided to build his own version and thus designed the Team Warlock 23 "Offshore" to compete. In my quest for useless facts about Warlocks on a Donzi site, Stan told me that Stolarz had been very competitive on the race course and was known as a fearless warrior and that he did the Team Warlock hull bottom from scratch. He used that same racing ethos when designing the 23 Offshore in 1986 for first build in early 1987. He felt he could be very competitive with bigger boats on the race course. I believe that turned out to be accurate.

:confused: Any comments appreciated should you come back by the site Lars. Greg

Ghost
04-16-2014, 11:44 PM
Breaking 90 in a 23 at that power level is still impressive; I actually thought it would be in the 600-650 range.

The later 23 XRI are still good runners, right? Never liked Left Coast boats in the past but I'm kinda coming around. Unfortunately Donzi ain't so great in the speedy bowrider department until you get to the 35ZR, and clearly that's not happening.

Not a fan of the the 28 ZXO?

duckhunter
04-16-2014, 11:58 PM
Not a fan of the the 28 ZXO?


Forgot about those! Still about 2x my realistic budget... especially the day after tax day. :mad:

Conquistador_del_mar
04-17-2014, 01:15 PM
Bill, when you sort out your (don't forget I have first dibs!) new 23 I have two folks you might want to eyeball. One is running a Spinelli 4 blade and clocking 92mph on a Team Warlock 23 Offshore, and the other is running a stock Bravo 1 wheel and laying down 86mph on GPS with a Team Warlock 24 Euro. Should be interesting to see how your 23 Offshore runs :yes:

I am a little surprised that 4 blade props work best for both of those Warlocks. I will be trying a 3 blade Mirage on my first outing, but I'll change depending on the results.

Conquistador_del_mar
04-21-2014, 01:47 AM
We finally got to take out the Warlock this afternoon and it could not have gone any better except for rain in the late afternoon :yes: Everything worked perfectly and I saw a top speed of 77MPH at 4900RPM using some port trim tab with the Mirage 25P prop. My wife and I both love the boat! Apparently the boat is a rain magnet since it got rained on the day I got it from Arizona and the first day out in it today - lol. It takes a little port trim tab to level it just like the 28' Warlock, but no big deal with the K planes. Anyway, just wanted to report the first outing results. Here is a short video my wife and I took this afternoon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCSm218Gavw

Just Say N20
04-21-2014, 05:32 AM
Looks like a great running boat! That has to be the buy of the year.

Greg Guimond
04-21-2014, 11:36 AM
We finally got to take out the Warlock this afternoon and I saw a top speed of 77MPH at 4900RPM using some port trim tab with the Mirage 25P prop. It takes a little port trim tab to level it just like the 28' Warlock, but no big deal with the K planes.

Bill, these hulls do tend to run flatter than expected but you should not have to drag the left tab if she is carrying the bow enough. Some of that very slight "list" might depend on how low the Bravos prop shaft is below the keel. It should be around 4 1/2" below on that set-up I would think.

Conquistador_del_mar
04-21-2014, 01:44 PM
Looks like a great running boat! That has to be the buy of the year.

I can't remember ever buying a boat for so little that had so much going for it.


Bill, these hulls do tend to run flatter than expected but you should not have to drag the left tab if she is carrying the bow enough. Some of that very slight "list" might depend on how low the Bravos prop shaft is below the keel. It should be around 4 1/2" below on that set-up I would think.

I am still in the beginning stages of getting used to it. Next time out I will be sure to raise the tab and see how it performs at the faster speeds. The boat is quiet like the 28' Warlock with cored hull and silencer tips. The K planes sure do corrections quickly - I like a perfectly level boat when I run or I could probably do without using them. The boat gained quite a few MPH with just a flick of the drive trim to raise it very little from my cruising trim. It does some porpoising if you raise the trim too high at cruise. Overall, it feels wonderful and those front seats really hold you in place - an overweight person would be really wedged into them. Great boat!

Conquistador_del_mar
04-21-2014, 03:00 PM
Greg,
I just got off the phone thanking Keith again for the Warlock. He confirmed that he custom ordered the gelcoat colors and went with the K plane upgrade after his buddies who raced with Stolarz told him he would end up getting them later if he didn't order them new from the factory when he ordered the boat. I'll be trying the prop he sent after talking to him - it came off his friend's 28' Warlock who had a set custom made and ran until he upgraded the engines. Keith got the right hand one. By the way, Keith told me that cloth material is called yacht cloth and that I could probably still find it. Onwards.

Greg Guimond
04-21-2014, 08:13 PM
Greg,
I just got off the phone thanking Keith again for the Warlock. He confirmed that he custom ordered the gelcoat colors and went with the K plane upgrade after his buddies who raced with Stolarz told him he would end up getting them later if he didn't order them new from the factory when he ordered the boat. I'll be trying the prop he sent after talking to him - it came off his friend's 28' Warlock who had a set custom made and ran until he upgraded the engines. Keith got the right hand one. By the way, Keith told me that cloth material is called yacht cloth and that I could probably still find it. Onwards.

Yep, those are custom gel colors and the massive K plane upgrade is a nice one for sure. These hulls being only 6'8" wide are very sensitive to weight location and distribution as you might imagine. As you get some seat time and figure things out it'll be interesting to see if the list goes away. Depending on the drive depth most guys run 4 blades on these 23 Offshores. One guy even ran an extension box on his which I found interesting. The yacht cloth could probably be sourced thru ARKO if needed. It is really unique stuff. I wonder who made it back in the day. :yes:

Conquistador_del_mar
04-22-2014, 12:14 AM
Yep, those are custom gel colors and the massive K plane upgrade is a nice one for sure. These hulls being only 6'8" wide are very sensitive to weight location and distribution as you might imagine. As you get some seat time and figure things out it'll be interesting to see if the list goes away. Depending on the drive depth most guys run 4 blades on these 23 Offshores. One guy even ran an extension box on his which I found interesting. The yacht cloth could probably be sourced thru ARKO if needed. It is really unique stuff. I wonder who made it back in the day. :yes:


Keith told me today that he had tried a 4 blade or two and that they did not work well on his Warlock. With the boat, he included a new Mirage Plus 25P and a Mirage 23P, but he claims the converted OMC 3 blade Raker 24P worked the best for speed and overall characteristics.
I will try to find some yacht cloth before too much time goes by. He had the engine cover redone about 10 or so years ago at the Warlock plant, but he did not know if it was still available now. I think he was glad to hear how much I like the boat :yes:.

yeller
04-22-2014, 12:21 PM
Bill, these hulls do tend to run flatter than expected but you should not have to drag the left tab if she is carrying the bow enough.

Sounds like it has a bad bottom. I have $10k waiting for you.... ;)

Conquistador_del_mar
04-22-2014, 12:24 PM
I forgot to mention that the water pressure gauge read about 8PSI at cruise (0 on the hose), but since I have never had one, I have no idea what would be considered ideal.

Conquistador_del_mar
04-22-2014, 02:27 PM
Sounds like it has a bad bottom. I have $10k waiting for you.... ;)

Apparently I will need to part it out. I couldn't take advantage of your generous offer, but I really appreciate your trying to bail me out of this floating disaster.

Greg Guimond
04-23-2014, 07:30 AM
I forgot to mention that the water pressure gauge read about 8PSI at cruise (0 on the hose), but since I have never had one, I have no idea what would be considered ideal.

Bill, there is only 10 hours on that new mill, correct? I'd be looking at what the water temp gauge is showing when you are cruising at say 4000 rpms and getting 8psi? 8 sounds pretty low. I would check into that and get a couple of opinions. Also, give a quick call to Morgan's. You don't want any surprises.

Conquistador_del_mar
04-23-2014, 01:21 PM
Bill, there is only 10 hours on that new mill, correct? I'd be looking at what the water temp gauge is showing when you are cruising at say 4000 rpms and getting 8psi? 8 sounds pretty low. I would check into that and get a couple of opinions. Also, give a quick call to Morgan's. You don't want any surprises.

Good idea Greg. Yes, 12 hours on new engine. Actually, the water temp never came up - at least at cruise. I didn't watch any gauges except the tach, speed, and trim gauges when I punched it only once to full throttle. Oil pressure stayed high, never saw oil temp over 170, and depth gauge was intermittant at cruise. I checked the oil at the end of the day and it was like new clean and full. I might pull a valve cover to see if condensation is building up. Overall, the engine had absolutely no glitches and ran perfect.

bertsboat
04-23-2014, 01:26 PM
I am sure you guys will know what I mean when I say it always rains when you get a new boat, bike, motorcycle or go kart. Been that way my whole like. Guess its God saying "OK, you want a go kart? Then it comes with rain" :0



We finally got to take out the Warlock this afternoon and it could not have gone any better except for rain in the late afternoon :yes: Everything worked perfectly and I saw a top speed of 77MPH at 4900RPM using some port trim tab with the Mirage 25P prop. My wife and I both love the boat! Apparently the boat is a rain magnet since it got rained on the day I got it from Arizona and the first day out in it today - lol. It takes a little port trim tab to level it just like the 28' Warlock, but no big deal with the K planes. Anyway, just wanted to report the first outing results. Here is a short video my wife and I took this afternoon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCSm218Gavw

bertsboat
04-23-2014, 01:34 PM
You have to have the fastest dog in the world!!!! What did he think of the ride?? He looked scared. Proly scared the dog crap out of him!!!!!



We finally got to take out the Warlock this afternoon and it could not have gone any better except for rain in the late afternoon :yes: Everything worked perfectly and I saw a top speed of 77MPH at 4900RPM using some port trim tab with the Mirage 25P prop. My wife and I both love the boat! Apparently the boat is a rain magnet since it got rained on the day I got it from Arizona and the first day out in it today - lol. It takes a little port trim tab to level it just like the 28' Warlock, but no big deal with the K planes. Anyway, just wanted to report the first outing results. Here is a short video my wife and I took this afternoon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCSm218Gavw

Conquistador_del_mar
04-23-2014, 02:11 PM
You have to have the fastest dog in the world!!!! What did he think of the ride?? He looked scared. Proly scared the dog crap out of him!!!!!

Bear is almost 17 years old and rolls with the punches. He has been boating with us since being a puppy so he knows no fear. His favorite thing is getting out at the sand islands and going exploring. We have a video of when a Canada goose protecting his nest came swooping down on Bear and nipped his butt - he didn't care for that - lol. The only thing that scares Bear is thunder. Ordinarily, Bear is wearing a life jacket, but we didn't get it out of the Donzi fishing boat that day.

Greg Guimond
04-23-2014, 02:18 PM
Good idea Greg. Yes, 12 hours on new engine. Actually, the water temp never came up - at least at cruise. I didn't watch any gauges except the tach, speed, and trim gauges when I punched it only once to full throttle. Oil pressure stayed high, never saw oil temp over 170, and depth gauge was intermittant at cruise. I checked the oil at the end of the day and it was like new clean and full. I might pull a valve cover to see if condensation is building up. Overall, the engine had absolutely no glitches and ran perfect.

There are many folks here who can give you advice based on experience but I think there might be a small issue that needs to be attended to with both temp and pressure. Probably not a big deal, but best to get it fixed before another run. Maybe the water temp gauge is broken but I doubt it based on Keith being on top of things. That temp not coming up (180-190?) might be holding water pressure down to 8psi at cruise.

Conquistador_del_mar
04-23-2014, 02:30 PM
There are many folks here who can give you advice based on experience but I think there might be a small issue that needs to be attended to with both temp and pressure. Probably not a big deal, but best to get it fixed before another run. Maybe the water temp gauge is broken but I doubt it based on Keith being on top of things. That temp not coming up (180-190?) might be holding water pressure down to 8psi at cruise.

Greg, I was thinking the opposite. My guess is that the water is flowing through the block and exhaust manifolds so freely that no real pressure is developed. When I fired it on the hose, there was no pressure. I remember reading that too much pressure can be a problem though. It sure runs and sounds perfect at every speed.

Conquistador_del_mar
05-09-2014, 12:27 AM
Everything worked perfectly and I saw a top speed of 77MPH at 4900RPM using some port trim tab with the Mirage 25P prop.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCSm218Gavw

After crunching the numbers, there is no way the Warlock ran as fast as the speedometer read or there would have been zero slippage. The typical speedometers I have had over the years are relatively accurate, but the Gaffrig seems to be overly optimistic. More testing is in order and next time I will use a handheld GPS or my wife's iphone GPS. No matter what the real speed was, it is a fast boat that I really like :yes:.

Greg Guimond
05-12-2014, 10:00 PM
Sounds like things are coming along Bill. Here are two 23 Offshore's that you can use for contrast to your boats 454 525hp engine. The first one, in the sale description below, ran 82mph with the 540 625hp on GPS. Not sure what prop he used but it was a 4 blade.

1991 Warlock Power Boat (Aqua and White) - Model-23' World Class, Motor - 540ci 625hp Merlin Mercruiser. Trim Tabs/Trim Indicator, Thru Hull Exhaust: Gil 4" dry exhaust w/hardin tips Tandem Hydraulic Stearing, Aeromotive fuel system, Hardin Marine single stage serpentine drive kit, New Barry Grant 850 Marine Demon carb. 2 Batteries with switch, GPS speedometer, Gafrig gauges. INCLUDES: 98 QUICK LOAD Trailer BOAT WAS CUSTOM MADE AND TRAILERED TO BOAT SHOWS FROM 1991-95 - (TWO OWNERS)

A second one running in upstate NY is a 1989 and it's also running a 540 making 680hp and spinning a Spinelli 4 blade 29 at 4 1/4" below the keel. He does a best of 90mph on radar on demand. The Spinelli is below.

Conquistador_del_mar
05-14-2014, 01:12 PM
Thanks for the comps, Greg. Are Spinellis hard to track down?

Greg Guimond
05-15-2014, 12:32 PM
Thanks for the comps, Greg. Are Spinellis hard to track down?

Spinelli props were built in upstate New York for many years. Very high quality but not readily available anymore. You can find them if you are patient though. I'd try the Rev4 on the 23 footer first as a baseline to compare to the 3 blade you have on it now. Propped correctly, it should get 80 even on GPS. Good luck :cool:

Conquistador_del_mar
05-15-2014, 01:32 PM
Spinelli props were built in upstate New York for many years. Very high quality but not readily available anymore. You can find them if you are patient though. I'd try the Rev4 on the 23 footer first as a baseline to compare to the 3 blade you have on it now. Propped correctly, it should get 80 even on GPS. Good luck :cool:

The next time out, I will be trying the 25P OMC prop that Keith told me was the fastest he had tried, but I would also like to try the Rev4 for comparison. Did I mention that he included a Mirage 23P and a new Mirage Plus 25P with the boat? I didn't open the prop boxes that came with the boat until trying a Mirage 25P that I had in stock (that is what I used on our first outing in the video).

Greg Guimond
05-16-2014, 06:34 PM
I wonder if that OMC is a hub modified Raker. Most all the guys with 23 Offshores and big power run four blades. I would think it's for two reasons. First, a 4 blade helps with hull lift and these hulls run very flat. Second, those 4 ears help a 6'6" beam counteract torque list, keeping it flying level port to starboard without dragging speed robbing tab. As Grizz used to say though, test 'em all, you never know what surprises you'll find.

Looking forward to the OMC prop report :shades:

Conquistador_del_mar
05-16-2014, 07:14 PM
I wonder if that OMC is a hub modified Raker. Most all the guys with 23 Offshores and big power run four blades. I would think it's for two reasons. First, a 4 blade helps with hull lift and these hulls run very flat. Second, those 4 ears help a 6'6" beam counteract torque list, keeping it flying level port to starboard without dragging speed robbing tab. As Grizz used to say though, test 'em all, you never know what surprises you'll find.

Looking forward to the OMC prop report :shades:

Yep, I believe it is a modified 3 blade Raker that his friend had modified for his twin engine 28' until he went with bigger power. I always thought the 4 blade would add more torque to the equation as well as take a little speed away? All I know is that the Rev4 on the 28' Warlock runs like a champ - just like one did on the 25' Martini. Brett (the prop guru) is the one who had recommended it to someone and I ran into a few forum reports on its qualities so I tried it first on the Martini with no reason to try anything else - it was that good! We plan to go boating this Sunday, but I don't know which boat we will end up taking out. This next week, I hope to get my restored 1971 18' Donzi ready for a spin.

Conquistador_del_mar
05-22-2014, 02:28 PM
I discovered something yesterday that had me puzzled on the Warlock. On the throttle handle, there is a part mounted that I did not know what purpose it had. After turning on the power, I discovered that it is a secondary set of switches to operate the K planes. Since there are switches on the dash for the K planes I was surprised to finally figure out that the small protrusions on the throttle are switches that go up and down with a fair amount of force. I actually got in the boat just to see if that might be what they were after reflecting on what its function might be. I know - doh! Here is the only picture I have of the throttle.

Greg Guimond
05-23-2014, 10:07 PM
That must have been a redneck attempt at custom. :boggled:

Conquistador_del_mar
05-23-2014, 11:59 PM
That must have been a redneck attempt at custom. :boggled:

Too funny!

Greg Guimond
06-22-2014, 10:04 PM
We finally got to take out the Warlock 23 this afternoon and it could not have gone any better. Everything worked perfectly and I saw a top speed of 77MPH at 4900RPM using some port trim tab with the Mirage 25P prop. It takes a little port trim tab to level it just like the 28', but no big deal with the K planes. Anyway, just wanted to report the first outing results.

Were you able to get the modified OMC Raker 3 blade out for a try yet?

Conquistador_del_mar
06-23-2014, 12:37 AM
Were you able to get the modified OMC Raker 3 blade out for a try yet?

Almost took it out this afternoon, but we took the Donzi instead. I keep wanting to try that prop, and I will - :yes:

Conquistador_del_mar
06-29-2014, 10:38 PM
Were you able to get the modified OMC Raker 3 blade out for a try yet?

We took out the Warlock this afternoon with the OMC Raker 24. It didn't run any faster than the Mirage 25, and I didn't like the handling characteristics as well - kind of squirrely at speed. I'll be going back to the Mirage or trying the Rev 4 next time out. Just wanted to give a quick report. It was too windy to fly the drone and take overhead pictures and video so it will be a while before I get those shots - we don't go out on the 4th with the excess traffic.

Greg Guimond
06-30-2014, 10:38 AM
We took out the Warlock this afternoon with the OMC Raker 24. It didn't run any faster than the Mirage 25, and I didn't like the handling characteristics as well - kind of squirrely at speed. I'll be going back to the Mirage or trying the Rev 4 next time out. Just wanted to give a quick report.

Interesting feedback Bill. Not sure what your intentions are for that Raker but depending on how it is hubbed I might be interested in buying it from you. I have heard that my 16 might like a Raker. I think you should go with the Rev4 test next. I ran one on my Team Warlock 23 three weeks back and did 69-70mph gps at 5900 rpm as a reference point.

Conquistador_del_mar
06-30-2014, 11:49 AM
Interesting feedback Bill. Not sure what your intentions are for that Raker but depending on how it is hubbed I might be interested in buying it from you. I have heard that my 16 might like a Raker. I think you should go with the Rev4 test next. I ran one on my Team Warlock 23 three weeks back and did 69-70mph gps at 5900 rpm as a reference point.

Greg, the Raker is hubbed for conventional Mercruiser 1" shaft using the exact same hardware as any other Merc prop. If you want the Raker, just send me your address again via email and I'll send it to you as a small present :yes: dgill25960@aol.com

Greg Guimond
06-30-2014, 12:00 PM
Thanks Bill but unfortunately I would need it to have the Flo-Torq removable hub kit so I could interchange the prop between my Ultra 23XS and my Donzi 16 OB. My 16 runs Merc power and my Ultra an Evinrude 250.

Conquistador_del_mar
06-30-2014, 12:54 PM
Okay Greg. I will add that the Raker acts like a larger pitch than it is sized at.

Greg Guimond
07-02-2014, 08:46 PM
The Merc Revolution 4 prop I've used is a 23" with the stock 4 vent holes. Pulls right up onto plane with zero issues and will hold plane easily at 30-35mph. I ran it again this evening and it ran 69mph at 5900rpm but it's too loose up top as it likes a lot of trim to run fast on the Team Warlock hull. :yes: Not a perfect fit for me given how high my prop shaft is but fast at 69-70 with an old fishin motor. I suspect it will be a much nicer fit for your hull Bill as your prop shaft is deeper.

Conquistador_del_mar
07-03-2014, 01:58 AM
The Merc Revolution 4 prop I've used is a 23" with the stock 4 vent holes. Pulls right up onto plane with zero issues and will hold plane easily at 30-35mph. I ran it again this evening and it ran 69mph at 5900rpm but it's too loose up top as it likes a lot of trim to run fast on the Team Warlock hull. :yes: Not a perfect fit for me given how high my prop shaft is but fast at 69-70 with an old fishin motor. I suspect it will be a much nicer fit for your hull Bill as your prop shaft is deeper.

So you tried one Greg? Cool!! You are probably right about it being better on a boat with a lower shaft. So you can run your motor at 5900RPM? Was the top end speed good compared to other props you have used? I will be trying a Rev 4 25P on the 23' Warlock next time out - the same prop on the 28' Warlock is perfect! After running the numbers, the 28' Warlock had about 11% slip which is fairly good in my book.

Greg Guimond
07-03-2014, 07:33 AM
11% slip is impressive on an old school 28' deep V. For me, the Rev4 was easily 5-6mph faster with my 1.75 gears than other props that I have tried including the Mirage Bill even with my floppy transom which I have yet to deal with. That said, I run in very rough water almost always so with that boat my needs are traction and handling first. I have found that Powertech's "OFX4" thru hub 4 blade is amazing in that regard. It has a very different blade design and more cup that the Rev4 so even with my extremely high drive it lifts the entire hull.


My gearcase is 1/4" below the keel. I'd be interested in knowing what yours is? I think the Rev4 will be very good for you, should give you 75mph GPS on demand :lightning

Conquistador_del_mar
07-03-2014, 11:12 AM
11% slip is impressive on an old school 28' deep V. For me, the Rev4 was easily 5-6mph faster with my 1.75 gears than other props that I have tried including the Mirage Bill even with my floppy transom which I have yet to deal with. That said, I run in very rough water almost always so with that boat my needs are traction and handling first. I have found that Powertech's "OFX4" thru hub 4 blade is amazing in that regard. It has a very different blade design and more cup that the Rev4 so even with my extremely high drive it lifts the entire hull.


My gearcase is 1/4" below the keel. I'd be interested in knowing what yours is? I think the Rev4 will be very good for you, should give you 75mph GPS on demand :lightning

Greg, I came up with a 6% slip for you with the Rev 4 - correct? Your drive is so much farther back than conventional outdrive boats that you can get away with having the shaft so high. Was the Rev 4 making the boat do anything radical at higher speeds? It is a rock solid ride at every speed using it on the 28' Warlock and my old 25' Martini.

Greg Guimond
07-03-2014, 05:31 PM
No nothing that radical for a surfacing set up which is what I have when you really trim the Rev4 out. The only thing was that it runs loose at top speed so you have to have your chit wired tight. If I am at 1/4" below the keel with my prop shaft centerline, I bet your 23 is 4 1/4" below. That extra 4" of depth should be a great fit for the Rev4's geometry and get you to 75mph on GPS coming and going. :cool!:

Greg Guimond
07-03-2014, 05:38 PM
While I was out testing the Rev4 one of our boys got a couple of good pics before the storms came in and the harbor beast got hungry! :eek:

Conquistador_del_mar
07-04-2014, 12:50 PM
No nothing that radical for a surfacing set up which is what I have when you really trim the Rev4 out. The only thing was that it runs loose at top speed so you have to have your chit wired tight. If I am at 1/4" below the keel with my prop shaft centerline, I bet your 23 is 4 1/4" below. That extra 4" of depth should be a great fit for the Rev4's geometry and get you to 75mph on GPS coming and going. :cool!:

Since it sounds like the Rev 4 added a few MPH, but at the cost of top end handling; do you think dropping your outboard an inch or two might make everything right? This is predicated on your having an adjustable transom bracket. You might be able to get better top end speed and better handling than any other prop you have tried? Might be worth a try - just a thought.

Greg Guimond
07-04-2014, 03:41 PM
Since it sounds like the Rev 4 added a few MPH, but at the cost of top end handling; do you think dropping your outboard an inch or two might make everything right? This is predicated on your having an adjustable transom bracket. You might be able to get better top end speed and better handling than any other prop you have tried? Might be worth a try - just a thought.

I keep meaning to get around to putting a 3" hydraulic jack plate on that particular boat, but never seem to get around to it. I'll wait to see what your results are on your Team Warlock 23 with the deep drive and Rev4 handling wise to get a framework. That may give me a kick in the butt ...............:yes:

Conquistador_del_mar
07-05-2014, 01:37 PM
I keep meaning to get around to putting a 3" hydraulic jack plate on that particular boat, but never seem to get around to it. I'll wait to see what your results are on your Team Warlock 23 with the deep drive and Rev4 handling wise to get a framework. That may give me a kick in the butt ...............:yes:

Yes, I will let you know the results. By the way, did you take out the Rev 4 vent plugs or leave them in? Also, did you know they make various vent plugs with different sized holes? In my applications, I have been leaving the solid vent plugs installed as they come new from the factory. I ask because it is possible that they are adding air when you run it so near the surface if you left them out, thus creating a loose feel - just a thought.

Greg Guimond
07-06-2014, 09:45 AM
Yes, I will let you know the results. By the way, did you take out the Rev 4 vent plugs or leave them in? Also, did you know they make various vent plugs with different sized holes? In my applications, I have been leaving the solid vent plugs installed as they come new from the factory. I ask because it is possible that they are adding air when you run it so near the surface if you left them out, thus creating a loose feel - just a thought.

Yes, the Merc PVS vent system gives you all types of sizes to fiddle with. In my application I have to run all 4 vent holes open or else the boat won't come up on plane easily. I'm going to run the Rev4 again and try and get a cell phone video of the blade area water contact patch at 55mph cruise and then WOT as well. Let me know how deep your drive is and maybe you go-pro your Rev4 test.

Conquistador_del_mar
07-06-2014, 01:53 PM
Yes, the Merc PVS vent system gives you all types of sizes to fiddle with. In my application I have to run all 4 vent holes open or else the boat won't come up on plane easily. I'm going to run the Rev4 again and try and get a cell phone video of the blade area water contact patch at 55mph cruise and then WOT as well. Let me know how deep your drive is and maybe you go-pro your Rev4 test.

Since I am not venting exhaust out of the props with the drives I have used the Rev 4s on, I don't understand why the plugs would ever be removed with exhaust coming out of the drive. Why does it help to get on plane with them removed if there is exhaust coming out? Does it help reduce back pressure of the exhaust gases or something else that is in play? In my case, I never go full throttle to get on plane like I did when water skiing behind my boats so there is never an issue with quickly getting up on plane - plus the boats I am running now are much heavier than the 18' Donzi that I skied behind. If I ever plan to pull skiers now, I would temporarily install a much lower pitch prop to make it easier on the skier, the drive, and the engine. Vent holes are a mystery to me - maybe you can educate me?

Greg Guimond
07-07-2014, 08:18 AM
Vent education on hold........

After sneaking out yesterday afternoon with the 23 to test run a 22" PowerTech OFX-4 prop and compare it to the 23" Merc Rev4 it looked like it was going to be a great end to the July 4th weekend :shades:

Greg Guimond
07-07-2014, 08:33 AM
Well not exactly. After running the Powertech OFX-4 in a variety of rough water conditions for the afternoon with incredible results, I went to find some flat water where I could run some top end tests with the prop. After that, I'm coming back toward the dock to pull the boat and swap out the OFX-4 for the Rev4 Winds were high and the current was running far stronger than normal.

Hmmm, something does not feel right with the boats handling ............ :boggled:

Approaching the dock and something AINT right with handling, bamm I hit the damn dock corner fighting the current and winds and fugh things up nicely.

Tilt the motor up to see WTF's up :mad: Slung a blade on the PowerTech evidently at the end!

Greg Guimond
07-07-2014, 08:36 AM
And this combined with a new prop and a heavy wind and current produced this nice ummmmm DENT ............ :garfield:

Greg Guimond
07-07-2014, 08:39 AM
Where is Mr. Carter when you need him? I will say after I pulled into the house and kicked myself in the arse numerous times, I found the blueish color and the glass layup of the Team Warlocks hullside very interesting.

Now that is Warlock Warped :eek:

CHACHI
07-07-2014, 10:10 AM
That really left a mark.

Sorry to hear about your dent.

Ken

Greg Guimond
07-07-2014, 10:33 AM
Thanks Ken.

I'm actually grateful that's all that happened. If it slings that blade at WOT it might have made for another ejection into the river which didn't work out well last time. White duct tape will cure the dent until Winter :garfield:

Conquistador_del_mar
07-07-2014, 12:30 PM
Very sorry to hear about the double wammy, but it could have been much worse at WOT!! The only props that I heard "sling" blades are typically the labbed props that have been thinned or extreme HP applications. Have you heard of others having any blade problems with that model Powertech prop?

Greg Guimond
07-09-2014, 07:29 PM
PowerTech has an excellent reputation for props but YES this particular OFX-4 had been labbed. I did not get a lot of test time with the borrowed OFX-4 before it slung the blade but what time I did get was showing me some incredible handling and lift so I will be trying another one, but bone stock this time to get a better comparison to the Rev4 from Merc.

Conquistador_del_mar
07-10-2014, 01:49 AM
Now it makes sense why it threw the blade. It sounds like you will have to get the Rev 4 a little lower in the water to have it work like they do for me, but I'll bet you would like the characteristics. Personally, I want to feel solid on the top end rather than on the edge even if I give up some top end speed - not that the Rev 4 gives up any speed. I'm too old for another 65mph body cartwheel into the drink - lol.

Greg Guimond
07-10-2014, 01:27 PM
It sounds like you will have to get the Rev 4 a little lower in the water to have it work like they do for me, but I'll bet you would like the characteristics.

Let me know how you like your Rev4 when you try it for the first time on the TW 23' :yes:

Conquistador_del_mar
07-10-2014, 02:22 PM
Let me know how you like your Rev4 when you try it for the first time on the TW 23' :yes:

Yes, definitely. The first time out with the 23' I used a Mirage 25P (not Plus) which performed and acted well followed by the Raker which had odd handling characteristics. I will be surprised if the Rev 4 does not do well, but I'll put it through the testing gamut and report.
By the way, I knew your 4 blade prop design reminded me of a line of props and it finally dawned on me - Hoss. Check them out - http://hossprops.com/Hyperdrive.html

Greg Guimond
07-12-2014, 01:41 PM
Yes, definitely. The first time out with the 23' I used a Mirage 25P (not Plus) which performed and acted well followed by the Raker which had odd handling characteristics. I will be surprised if the Rev 4 does not do well, but I'll put it through the testing gamut and report.

By the way, I knew your 4 blade prop design reminded me of a line of props and it finally dawned on me - Hoss. Check them out - http://hossprops.com/Hyperdrive.html

At $900 a pop it will be a long while before I try a Hoss prop!

I have been running through all my various props (last count I have 15) on the Team Warlock 23. The Yamaha gearcase can run 1" Merc props with a different thrust washer so a lot of my Merc stuff will work. Last night I tested a 21" Trophy Plus "small" barrel with four PVS vent holes (they came with large and small barrel) on the River. It was about a (7) on a 1-10 scale. I ran 61.8mph at 6050 RPM. Not enough blade area for the torque of the 3.3L HPDI and 1.75 gears. Next ..........:cool:

Conquistador_del_mar
07-12-2014, 02:19 PM
Greg,
I look forward to hearing how the Rev 4 does if you drop your OB an inch or so. It sounds like it would work perfectly for you. Do you have an adjustable transom bracket to install? If not, I think I have one I could send to you.

Greg Guimond
07-12-2014, 09:54 PM
Thanks Bill, you're too kind. I'm going to test a Trophy 25" I have for yucks. Want to see if the Jap hamsters can spin the 25 versus the 21 wheel and what it does to RPM's. I doubt it will be any faster than 61 honestly.

When I was testing the 21 Trophy and on the way home Big 343 was out moving up River. It's a monster and makes you remember those lost.

Conquistador_del_mar
07-13-2014, 12:30 AM
Cool pic. I checked today and don't have an entire transom bracket like I thought. A friend recently taught me how to take a screen shot out of a video so here is one from the video of the Warlock 23' run with the Mirage 25P. We might take it out tomorrow with the Rev 4.

Greg Guimond
07-13-2014, 12:42 AM
That is cool, but your boats attack angle and bow lift with that prop would be far more interesting :cool!: Might be time for your overhead drone to do some filming. Hopefully you run the 23 today with the Rev 4 prop.

Greg Guimond
07-13-2014, 09:18 AM
With our kids heavily into the travel lacrosse season, time on the boats is more limited. This weekend I couldn't get out but I did get a chance to clean up the damage from my mishap a bit. A lot came out. The white tape would make Mr. Carter cringe! I poked around to see what the blue material in the glass layup might be and many folks thought it was klegecell or divinycell core. I'm not sure on that though as I don't believe my 1987 is actually a cored boat. I thought Team Warlock added that core option later. I have to look around my boat some more.

Conquistador_del_mar
07-14-2014, 01:09 AM
That is cool, but your boats attack angle and bow lift with that prop would be far more interesting :cool!: Might be time for your overhead drone to do some filming. Hopefully you run the 23 today with the Rev 4 prop.

We ran the 23' Warlock with the 25P Rev 4 this afternoon for a long run - at least 60 miles. It hooks up incredibly well but produced a fair lean to left which the port k plane corrected quickly. When I first tried for max speed, I trimmed the drive too much and it got squirrely at top end but I did see 78mph and increasing before backing out. Between the porpoising and kicking left/right I did not pursue that run. As we drove more at cruise, I kept playing with the drive trim and adjusting the port trim tab. I got the most stable ride by letting the boat run almost flat with very little drive trim and the port tab down enough to level the boat. With that setting, I was running 50mph at 3000RPM and 60mph at 3500RPM with great stability and cutting waves with no porpoising. The 23' Warlock does not like the drive trimmed up nearly as much as the 28' Warlock running the same prop, but the 28' has the IMCO Extreme which might be the difference. I might have to give the OMC Raker another shot by not trimming it so much - it also hooked up well with great RPM/mph numbers at high cruising speeds, but I was trimming it a lot for top end runs. I think the boat just needs to run almost flat with very little trim for best handling characteristics. Anyway, that is my quick report.
By the way, we had a great time today getting to parts of the lake I have not been in 20 years and then swimming out the the open lake with our dog near some rock cliff faces - very fun day!

Greg Guimond
07-14-2014, 08:17 AM
Lot to absorb here. Sounds like it was a great day.

I'd level the trailers and drives on both the 28 and 23 and compare how far below the keel each prop shaft is. I'm going to guess 4.25" below the keel on the 23 which is deep.

Greg Guimond
07-14-2014, 08:42 AM
When I got my best top speed of 70 GPS with the 23" Rev 4 it was also squirrelly for the last four mph or so gain in top speed as it was for you Bill. I also noticed a little porpoise in the mid range that I could drive though. I had no chine walk (left right, right left) that I can remember at any speeds.

Greg Guimond
07-14-2014, 08:44 AM
Your first run does confirm that 75mph on GPS will be readily available once you get the seat time and dial things in with the Rev 4.

Greg Guimond
07-14-2014, 06:16 PM
Also, I'm finding it interesting that the prop shaft centerline on the IMCO drive on your 28' is 5 1/4" below the keel. I guess I stand corrected as I thought your Team Warlock 23 footers Bravo would be deeper, but it isn't. Go figure.

Conquistador_del_mar
07-14-2014, 09:27 PM
After some thinking and a little research, I decided to put the Mirage 25P back on this afternoon. I believe it did not create as much lean, it felt good in almost every condition, and the top end speed and RPM was fine for me. I think the Rev 4 hooked up so well that the engine was being overloaded. I'll try it again soon now that I am getting hooked on the 23' as a really nice cruiser. I almost put on a Mirage Plus 25P, but that would lower the RPMs below where I want it to run. We'll see soon.

Greg Guimond
07-15-2014, 07:50 AM
We ran the 23' Warlock with the 25P Rev 4 this afternoon for a long run - at least 60 miles. It hooks up incredibly well but produced a fair lean to left which the port k plane corrected quickly.

When I test my 23 pitch Rev4 prop again I'm going to see if it produces the same lean to the left that you experienced. I don't remember clearly. I'm wondering if a 25P is just too big a wheel for your motor. Does the seat of the pants tell you it is making 500hp? What RPM were you seeing at 75mph before it got squirrely?

Conquistador_del_mar
07-15-2014, 01:57 PM
When I test my 23 pitch Rev4 prop again I'm going to see if it produces the same lean to the left that you experienced. I don't remember clearly. I'm wondering if a 25P is just too big a wheel for your motor. Does the seat of the pants tell you it is making 500hp? What RPM were you seeing at 75mph before it got squirrely?

Keith had the engine built at a race engine business in CA so I have to presume the 525HP rating is fairly accurate and it feels like it. I did not read the tach when I hit 78mph (and still accelerating) with the Rev 4 since I was mostly concentrating on driving the radical ride. My main reason for dropping back to a 3 blade prop is that I feel like the engine and drive were being pushed to the max with the Rev 4 hooking up so well. Towards the end of our day's run, I kept the drive lower and had the port tab down enough to level the boat and the boat seemed totally under control at WOT which was only 72mph at 4500RPM (I believe). The drive was barely raised above the first mark on my gauge. For comparison, I noticed in the video of my first trip out with the Mirage that the drive gauge was right at the second mark out - quite a difference! I should also add that I felt a little vibration with the Rev 4 like it needs to be balanced even though it is new. My mechanic friend told me yesterday that his prop guy mentioned that most of the brand new Solas Titan props needed balancing in his experience so the Rev 4 might also sometimes need it. The Rev 4 25P on my 28' Warlock felt perfect however. I actually have a new Rev 4 23P which might be worth trying sometime in the future - :yes:

Greg Guimond
07-15-2014, 08:03 PM
Keith had the engine built at a race engine business in CA so I have to presume the 525HP rating is fairly accurate and it feels like it. The Rev 4 25P on my 28' Warlock felt perfect however. I actually have a new Rev 4 23P which might be worth trying sometime in the future - :yes:

Now the 23P would be a very interesting compare/contrast ............ prop v prop.

Bring your 23, your 28, and your drone up to NYC and I'll get some guys I know to create an interesting Team Warlock mini docu-drama. We'll give it a "24" like feel lol. Then I'll pitch the clip to Ken Burns, who will then convince Tom Stolarz to provide all the early details and APBA pictures.

Conquistador_del_mar
07-15-2014, 09:25 PM
Now the 23P would be a very interesting compare/contrast ............ prop v prop.

Bring your 23, your 28, and your drone up to NYC and I'll get some guys I know to create an interesting Team Warlock mini docu-drama. We'll give it a "24" like feel lol. Then I'll pitch the clip to Ken Burns, who will then convince Tom Stolarz to provide all the early details and APBA pictures.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVeFMUnvwuE

That sounds like fun! By the way, I tried to contact Warlock or ARKO this week with no success on either - :frown:

Greg Guimond
07-15-2014, 09:32 PM
That sounds like fun! By the way, I tried to contact Warlock or ARKO this week with no success on either - :frown:

I can give you the Arko info Bill. When you say you tried to contact Warlock, do you mean you tried to call Team Warlock's Tom Stolarz directly in SoCal?

Conquistador_del_mar
07-15-2014, 09:40 PM
I can give you the Arko info Bill. When you say you tried to contact Warlock, do you mean you tried to call Team Warlock's Tom Stolarz directly in SoCal?

I could not get a good working number for any of the ARKO dealers, and although Warlock has a phone number listed it is also kaput. I was trying to get with someone about the gray yacht cloth. Too hard to find a match online even though I tried that a month or so ago.

Greg Guimond
07-15-2014, 10:27 PM
Bill, both Team Warlock (Tom Stolarz) and Ultimate Warlock (Carter Reed) which then legally became Warlock after they settled with Johnny West of Ultra are no longer in business. Carter's number was dusted in 2009 and Carter does not matter in your context as he knows nothing about the Team Warlock 23 Offshore hulls other than they beat the piss out of bigger boats. Both of these guys however, are still out and about in SoCal.

Arko does not have any "dealers" so not following you there. They are mostly a direct to boat manufacturer high end shop. They are more on the vintage side, old codgers with 40 years of experience and connections along with a backlog, whereas Sturgis is more on the latest technology and technique side with space age stuff and a backlog. All four are living peeps and can be found :) It always depends on what you're after.

Conquistador_del_mar
07-16-2014, 01:53 AM
Okay, I was using my iPad at work to find the numbers and it led me wrong with none of the phone numbers working? - I just used google on my Mac. Apparently, Bill Sturgis works at ARKO Upholstery in Lake Havasu City, AZ - correct? I would like to get some of the cloth if it is still available and worry about the actual upholstery work this winter.

Greg Guimond
07-16-2014, 10:29 AM
Bill Sturgis actually owns Arko and yes they now only have the one location in LHC as they are stepping back a bit. Send an email to Venna Sturgis with a couple of high quality pictures and a description.
Ol Bill "don't do tech" and these guys are always busy btw. If Venna doesn't help with the yacht cloth let me know and I'll give you Bill's cell. Good Luck.

From: Venna Sturgis <lakehavasugma@gmail.com (lakehavasugma@gmail.com)>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 07:50:50
To: Greg
Subject: Re: Open Bow Conversion

Bill would have no problem doing this job for you. Thank you, Venna

Conquistador_del_mar
07-16-2014, 02:05 PM
Bill Sturgis actually owns Arko and yes they now only have the one location in LHC as they are stepping back a bit. Send an email to Venna Sturgis with a couple of high quality pictures and a description.
Ol Bill "don't do tech" and these guys are always busy btw. If Venna doesn't help with the yacht cloth let me know and I'll give you Bill's cell. Good Luck.

From: Venna Sturgis <lakehavasugma@gmail.com (lakehavasugma@gmail.com)>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 07:50:50
To: Greg
Subject: Re: Open Bow Conversion

Bill would have no problem doing this job for you. Thank you, Venna

Thanks Greg. I just sent an email and I will probably call them later.

Conquistador_del_mar
07-17-2014, 03:41 PM
Bill Sturgis actually owns Arko and yes they now only have the one location in LHC as they are stepping back a bit. Send an email to Venna Sturgis with a couple of high quality pictures and a description.
Ol Bill "don't do tech" and these guys are always busy btw. If Venna doesn't help with the yacht cloth let me know and I'll give you Bill's cell. Good Luck.

From: Venna Sturgis <lakehavasugma@gmail.com (lakehavasugma@gmail.com)>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 07:50:50
To: Greg
Subject: Re: Open Bow Conversion

Bill would have no problem doing this job for you. Thank you, Venna

Venna wrote me back that Bill is not computer savvy so she gave me the same phone number I ended up finding through Google. I just got off the phone with him and he is going to send me a sample of that gray yacht cloth - he knew exactly what I was talking about - :yes:

Greg Guimond
07-18-2014, 09:17 PM
When I test my 23 pitch Rev4 prop again I'm going to see if it produces the same lean to the left that you experienced. I don't remember clearly.

The weather was stellar today so I logged 225 miles on the Team Warlock. We had friends in from LA so I gave them the full tour. I had the Rev 4 23 on for 10 hours in a wide variety of conditions. It turns out I do have the same lean to the left. Not major but it is present and requires a little tab to fix. The prop is a very good all around fit but I'm going to be trying an OFX-4 next in a smaller 20" pitch, down from the 22" I slung the blade on. Should be interesting.

Ended the day with dropping a friend from Westport at the Yankee's floating dock on the Harlem River. It was a much faster ride for him by water than I-95 South. It did however, present a small challenge, but we figured it out. :lightning

BUIZILLA
07-18-2014, 09:51 PM
there's a Warlock for sale out there for 25g with a Duramax diesel...

Greg Guimond
07-18-2014, 09:58 PM
It's a small Lake Edition 21' not an Offshore. He's a top shelf diesel guy and has done a few.

BUIZILLA
07-18-2014, 10:06 PM
coulda swore it was a 25'

99% positive

Greg Guimond
07-18-2014, 10:15 PM
Venna wrote me back that Bill is not computer savvy so she gave me the same phone number I ended up finding through Google. I just got off the phone with him and he is going to send me a sample of that gray yacht cloth - he knew exactly what I was talking about - :yes:

They are a wealth of old school knowledge there. Glad it seems to be working out.

Conquistador_del_mar
07-19-2014, 01:51 AM
The weather was stellar today so I logged 225 miles on the Team Warlock. We had friends in from LA so I gave them the full tour. I had the Rev 4 23 on for 10 hours in a wide variety of conditions. It turns out I do have the same lean to the left. Not major but it is present and requires a little tab to fix. The prop is a very good all around fit but I'm going to be trying an OFX-4 next in a smaller 20" pitch, down from the 22" I slung the blade on. Should be interesting.

Ended the day with dropping a friend from Westport at the Yankee's floating dock on the Harlem River. It was a much faster ride for him by water than I-95 South. It did however, present a small challenge, but we figured it out. :lightning

It sounds like the Rev 4 works fairly well for you. That is an outrageously long trip you took!!
This week I noticed how high the k planes are mounted on the transom - meaning they are set at a very high angle off the transom. Even though it seems like I am lowering the port tab quite a bit by the indicator, there is a lot of angle it has to travel before it would even contact the water. I sure wish the 28' had the same tabs mounted in the same location :yes:.

Conquistador_del_mar
07-19-2014, 01:55 AM
They are a wealth of old school knowledge there. Glad it seems to be working out.

Bill called me today while I was on the cell phone with the guy buying my 36' Cigarette to let me know he had sent the fabric samples in today's mail. If he weren't so far away, I would let him do the upholstery job but it is not logistically logical.

Greg Guimond
07-19-2014, 07:43 AM
This week I noticed how high the k planes are mounted on the transom - meaning they are set at a very high angle off the transom. Even though it seems like I am lowering the port tab quite a bit by the indicator, there is a lot of angle it has to travel before it would even contact the water. I sure wish the 28' had the same tabs mounted in the same location

I'm looking at your transom photo and not sure I follow. Are you saying that at dead level the trim tabs are not plum with the hulls running surface? From the picture below it almost looks like the planes are 1" or more ABOVE the hull but I can't really tell what's going.

Greg Guimond
07-19-2014, 08:10 AM
coulda swore it was a 25' 99% positive

210 LXi .........

Conquistador_del_mar
07-19-2014, 12:29 PM
I'm looking at your transom photo and not sure I follow. Are you saying that at dead level the trim tabs are not plum with the hulls running surface? From the picture below it almost looks like the planes are 1" or more ABOVE the hull but I can't really tell what's going.

I'm sure it is a matter of how these k planes are made because when they are fully retracted (all the way up), the trailing edge of the tab is probably 4" or more above the bottom of the hull. The leading edge is about 1" above the bottom of the hull. If I get a chance I will take a picture to show the angle by holding a straight edge off the bottom of the hull. Out of curiosity, do you or anyone else know how standardized the transom angle is on boats? These k planes could be mounted on a transom with an incredible outwards angle and still not come close to touching water at cruise.

Conquistador_del_mar
07-19-2014, 12:43 PM
I should add that when someone mounts Bennett tabs, they can control the tab angle of the fully up position by where they mount the ram base that attaches to the transom. The k planes have the hydraulic rams already mounted to the tab and mounting plate so there is no way to adjust the angle of the fully up position - it is already determined by the construction of the assembly.

Greg Guimond
07-19-2014, 06:30 PM
I'm sure it is a matter of how these k planes are made because the leading edge is about 1" above the bottom of the hull.

The transom angles were the same on every boat they built. The tabs that Keith put on that boat, while cool looking, are a complete misfit for that hull and the waters it ran in. Merc made a family of K-planes that are 12" long if I remember correctly. Find a used set and have a plug and play replacement. Now as to how your current tabs are mounted, I think there was a miscue there as well. Why on a fast, short hull would you mount the leading edge of the trim tab a full 1" above the hulls horizontal running surface? I would have thought 1/4" max.

The other thing to consider is the depth of the drive which effects leverage, what is that prop shaft depth on your 23?

Conquistador_del_mar
07-19-2014, 10:31 PM
The transom angles were the same on every boat they built. The tabs that Keith put on that boat, while cool looking, are a complete misfit for that hull and the waters it ran in. Merc made a family of K-planes that are 12" long if I remember correctly. Find a used set and have a plug and play replacement. Now as to how your current tabs are mounted, I think there was a miscue there as well. Why on a fast, short hull would you mount the leading edge of the trim tab a full 1" above the hulls horizontal running surface? I would have thought 1/4" max.

The other thing to consider is the depth of the drive which effects leverage, what is that prop shaft depth on your 23?

Greg, don't get me wrong - I love the k planes on the 23' and they work like a champ! Warlock installed them when he bought the boat and I am only noting that they have to be brought down a little to even touch the water since the angle at fully up is so much - no big deal. I'll try to find where they are just off the water and leave the port tab there instead of all the way up. Most likely, the starboard tab will never get used.
I have not measured the shaft depth on the 23' yet so I can't tell you. Did I mention that I love the boat recently?

Greg Guimond
07-20-2014, 09:31 AM
I'm sure I will love it just as much when you tire of it and sell it to me Bill :)

How long are the K planes that are on there? I'm not sure why they would have mounted them 1" above the hull :confused:

Conquistador_del_mar
07-20-2014, 12:30 PM
I am almost sure these are the 280 k plane trim tabs. Without measuring them, I want to say they are 20" long.

Greg Guimond
07-28-2014, 10:13 PM
The trim tabs on mine are mounted 1/4" above the hulls bottom. I would not want to change your mounting location on a perfect hull like that, but maybe as a fix you could add a piece of 1/2" thick stainless to the base of the Merc K Plane to make up the gap which is no doubt costing you speed up top. I would also use a round top ss bolt instead of counter sunk as that would relieve some of the surface tension and give you another 1 mph. You know you want to see 80mph on that GPS :)

Greg Guimond
07-28-2014, 10:16 PM
Team Warlock only used high end Bi and Tri directional glass cloth. They also used AME4000 resin. There layup has proven to be very good. Here is a quick blurb I found on the glass .............

Conquistador_del_mar
07-29-2014, 12:25 PM
The trim tabs on mine are mounted 1/4" above the hulls bottom. I would not want to change your mounting location on a perfect hull like that, but maybe as a fix you could add a piece of 1/2" thick stainless to the base of the Merc K Plane to make up the gap which is no doubt costing you speed up top. I would also use a round top ss bolt instead of counter sunk as that would relieve some of the surface tension and give you another 1 mph. You know you want to see 80mph on that GPS :)

Greg,
The k planes on the 23' work perfectly. Even though they are set a little high, it takes 1-2 seconds to make any necessary adjustment when running. Since they are relatively large, it does not take much tab to level the boat and I don't see any advantage to making any changes.
On the other hand, I have decided to move the Bennett trim tabs on the 28' Warlock to the outside of the transom where they will be more effective and where they should have been mounted in the first place. I might even break down and install a set of longer Danas or K-planes, but I think the existing Bennett ST-16s will work effectively when moved out almost 12" on each side. Onwards.

Greg Guimond
07-29-2014, 01:26 PM
Too bad you can't put the long K planes on the Team Warlock 28' where a longer/heavier tab would be of use. I have a set of small K's like these below. I think they are model "150S" that Merc only made for a few years.

Conquistador_del_mar
07-30-2014, 01:41 PM
The 10 yard x 54" roll of yacht cloth from Bill Sturgis at ARKO arrived yesterday ($230 with shipping). Apparently they call the color "graphite" which is appropriate. Sometime this coming winter, I will get a local upholsterer to redo everything except the engine cover which Keith had already done. I also will not have the front padding done since it is still like new.

yeller
07-31-2014, 02:05 PM
Bill, that's an excellent price. A lot of cloth fabrics are more than that wholesale.

Conquistador_del_mar
07-31-2014, 03:54 PM
Bill, that's an excellent price. A lot of cloth fabrics are more than that wholesale.

He told me that retail was $26/yard, but sold it at $20/yard. Hopefully he made some decent money :yes:. I was just happy to get some matching material before it disappeared!! Before I made contact with Bill at ARKO, I had unsuccessfully tried to find some online - I quickly came to the conclusion that it is impossible to match colors and material online.

Conquistador_del_mar
07-31-2014, 04:40 PM
Too bad you can't put the long K planes on the Team Warlock 28' where a longer/heavier tab would be of use. I have a set of small K's like these below. I think they are model "150S" that Merc only made for a few years.

Yesterday I made some quick measurements to make sure I can move the Bennetts to the outside of the transom on the 28' Warlock and miss the subflooring in the engine compartment. It looks like the only thing that has to be moved is the outdrive trim pump on the port side and possibly the Bennett pump on the starboard side - no big deal on either. Anyway, it looks feasible and they will be moved 11" to the outside which should make a huge difference in trim tab leverage :yes:. Onwards.

Greg Guimond
07-31-2014, 09:25 PM
I tried to contact Warlock or ARKO this week with no success on either - :frown:


I can give you the Arko info Bill.


I could not get a good working number for any of the ARKO dealers. I was trying to get with someone about the gray yacht cloth. Too hard to find a match online even though I tried that a month or so ago.


Bill Sturgis actually owns Arko and yes they now only have the one location in LHC as they are stepping back a bit. Send an email to Venna Sturgis with a couple of high quality pictures and a description. If Venna doesn't help with the yacht cloth let me know and I'll give you Bill's cell.

From: Venna Sturgis <lakehavasugma@gmail.com (lakehavasugma@gmail.com)>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 07:50:50
To: Greg
Subject: Re: Open Bow Conversion

Bill would have no problem doing this job for you. Thank you, Venna


Thanks Greg. I just sent an email and I will probably call them later.

Glad getting you in touch with ARKO worked. They are a wealth of old school information. Who else stocks marine burlap from 25 years ago.........Bill Sturgis does.

Greg Guimond
08-11-2014, 07:14 AM
I laid down 200 miles round trip yesterday deep up in to the Hudson River. Ended up in Kingston. The day was a perfect 10. While on my run I was trading notes with the owner of the countries fastest Team Warlock 23 Offshore. He has a 540 that evidently makes 680hp and has done 91-92mph on radar in freshwater, 90mph on demand. Friggin impressive. These Spinelli's must have been a very accomplished prop shop back in the day. Here is the Spinelli 4 blade he has been running for that last 7 years. The Spinelli's retired several years ago :frown:

Conquistador_del_mar
08-11-2014, 12:15 PM
Is he running that 680hp through a regular Bravo drive?

Greg Guimond
08-11-2014, 04:02 PM
Is he running that 680hp through a regular Bravo drive?

Yep, 100% stock Bravo drive with side inlets :yes:

Greg Guimond
08-11-2014, 04:06 PM
On my trip yesterday I tested a Merc Rev4 prop for 100 miles and then on the return ran a PowerTech OFX4 prop for 100 miles. I have liked both of these props from the start but this was a chance to really press them in a wide variety of water conditions. More on that comparo later.

Greg Guimond
08-23-2014, 10:20 PM
.
Bill,

Back when I was thinking about buying the boat I turned you on to, I threw down the gauntlet about the motor Keith had in it to the "car motor guys" on the site. Here is the feedback. The boys thought that 550hp was not real based on the data Keith provided about his build up. :garfield:


Greg Guimond 550 Horsepower
Does this build up have the "good stuff" and is 550 ponies about right?

454cid 550hp Dart Big M Iron block, 9 1/2 to 1 compression, Bravo drive w/shower
Crane hyd roller Cam w/roller lifters & gold roller rockers, Hardin SS sea pump
Manley SS intake valves & Inconel exhaust valves -10hrs on engine fresh water only
Imco exhaust manifolds with SS risers, Cyclone SS mufflers tips, Halon fire system
Holly 830 carb, MSD ign system w/rev limiter & distrib, dual batteries w/switch


05-19-2013, 02:53 PM
Pismo
Cam specs? Heads?

05-19-2013, 04:31 PM
gcarter
That may be a little high for a 454 running at the engine speeds we need.

05-20-2013, 01:28 PM
Donzi_Dude
the first one to make 550HP with a 454 we will call "Hot Sauce".



05-22-2013, 05:49 PM
Pat McPherson

Need to turn high rpm to make 550HP
I know a couple of guys that have built marine 454s that dyno'd just over 500 @ 5600. Need to build a 454 to spin over 6000rpm or have a blower on top to get 550.

05-23-2013, 05:08 AM
Donzi_Dude
i thinks it possible. you are just having to be "that guy" to do it.



05-23-2013, 06:35 AM
pipnit
550 w a 454 is easy. Go buy some good heads.


05-23-2013, 09:41 AM
Ed Donnelly
It might be hard to build one in the the back hills
of Nirvana, but, in the big city with a good engine
builder, its not that hard. Cam, compression, heads,
and manifold.. Try it you'll like it ..Ed

05-23-2013, 10:24 AM
pipnit

It's not hard at all to do, just takes a little coin and some smart thinking. I have a '76 2+3 with a big old honking TRS drive (re: inefficient) with a small block that runs 75mph on a gps on 87 octane. She runs like a top, no detonation, great response and a lot of fun!

To the original poster, you might want to call Bob Madera at Marine Kinetics. He'll give you good advice and could design a 454 which will get you to 550hp easily.


05-23-2013, 01:54 PM
pipnit
My point is 550 out of a 454 isn't that difficult. I have seen MANY 454's with that much power and a lot more. If you have the coin, have someone build it for you.


my short list would be a callies, lightweight forged stroker crank
some afr heads
good exhaust
victor intake
pro systems carb

if you can afford the stuff above, you can afford buying a cam and some advice from RMbuilder...


05-23-2013, 03:20 PM
MDonziM
Greg, 550hp sounds a little optimistic for 9.6:1 compression. I have well built 454's in my magnum that are 550 to 575hp and that's with 4-5lbs of boost. Without the sc's probably around 450hp. 500 hp should be doable without loosing reliability but beyond that you are trying to 10 10ths out of a marine engine which is not for me. I would rather start with 502ci if 550 hp is your goal. - Marshall

Greg Guimond
08-23-2014, 10:29 PM
So now Bill that you have owned the Team Warlock 23 for a few months, got the good Rev4 prop on it for testing achieving 76mph GPS, and had some seat time to sort all the details out ........... do you think that Keith's advertised claim of 550hp out of the 454 Carb'd motor is about accurate?

Conquistador_del_mar
08-23-2014, 11:59 PM
So that Keith's original ad copy can be seen, I copied and pasted from his advertisement.

23' Warlock 454cid 525hp Dart big M cast iron block, 91/2 to 1 compression, Holly 830 carb, MSD ign system w/rev limiter & MSD distributor, Crane hydraulic roller Cam w/roller lifters & gold roller rockers, Manley S/S intake valves & Inconel exhaust valves, engine was built by Morgan's Racing engines - walnut creek ca, Imco aluminum exhaust manifolds w/ S/S risers, Cyclone S/S mufflers tips, K-plane trim tabs w/indicators, Imco hydraulic ram external steering, Gaffrig gauges, MerCruiser Bravo drive w/shower, dual batteries w/switch, Halon fire sys, Hardin S/S sea pump, 3-S/S 3 blade props 23"-24"-25", 260 hrs on hull 12hrs on engine, fresh water only, V&M trailer with New- S/S disc brakes & hubs & master cylinder & aluminum rims & tires & wood rails with carpet. 85mph @ sea level 80mph @ lake mead, orig owner and excellent cond.




Greg,
I know the engine runs perfect and sounds great! I copied the ad information which showed it as 525hp instead of 550hp. Beyond that, anything would be guessing. I'll have to check, but my memory is that it has a Holley Dominator carb instead of an 830 - not sure. I still love the boat by the way :yes:

Greg Guimond
08-24-2014, 07:52 AM
The 23 Offshores may be the best boats ever built in that length. There is a gentleman who has one with a Zz502/ 500hp motor and he runs 83 mph on GPS consistently. And that is in freshwater. :lightning

Greg Guimond
09-22-2014, 07:49 PM
There is another gentleman with a 1990 23 Offshore. It has a stock Bravo drive which is a tad thicker than the 1989's and a stock 454 Carb which back then was rated for 330hp. Just did GPS work last weekend and clocked 66mph with a full tank of fuel.

Greg Guimond
09-22-2014, 09:55 PM
I laid down 200 miles round trip yesterday deep up in to the Hudson River. Ended up in Kingston. The day was a perfect 10. While on my run I was trading notes with the owner of the countries fastest Team Warlock 23 Offshore. He has a 540 that evidently makes 680hp and has done 91-92mph on radar in freshwater, 90mph on demand. Friggin impressive.


The 23 Offshores may be the best boats ever built in that length. There is a gentleman who has one with a Zz502/ 500hp motor and he runs 83 mph on GPS consistently. And that is in freshwater.


There is a gentleman with a 1990 23 Offshore. It has a stock Bravo drive which is a tad thicker than the 1989's and a stock 454 Carb which back then was rated for 330hp. Just did GPS work last weekend and clocked 66mph with a full tank of fuel.

The GPS stats got me to thinkin. I know nothing about car motors but in the wacker world the consensus opinion for 22' single OB boats is that it takes 10 horsepower for each 1mph gained above 65mph.

With the Team Warlock 23's you have .............

330hp = 66mph
500hp = 83mph
680hp = 91mph (the fastest in the US)

However all three of these speeds are in freshwater.

Greg Guimond
11-07-2014, 08:57 AM
The owner of the 680hp (dyno) Team Warlock 23 sent me a note last weekend. He set his best ever radar speed of 92.6mph coming and going. Nice way to close out the 2014 boating season he said!

scippy
01-13-2015, 02:24 AM
Greg are you out there????..............clear out your messages I have something to ask you!!

Conquistador_del_mar
01-13-2015, 11:49 PM
Greg are you out there????..............clear out your messages I have something to ask you!!

Pete,
I had to get on my old computer to get Greg's email address for you. Here is his last address that he used to write to me. greg.guimond1@gmail.com

scippy
01-14-2015, 04:44 PM
Pete,
I had to get on my old computer to get Greg's email address for you. Here is his last address that he used to write to me. greg.guimond1@gmail.com

Thanks Bill........I'll give it a whirl!

Greg Guimond
01-17-2015, 05:35 PM
Pete, I had to get on my old computer to get Greg's email address for you. Here is his last address that he used to write to me. greg.guimond1@gmail.com


Thanks Bill........I'll give it a whirl!

I guess this mean that in addition to being first in line to buy Bill's 23 when he's done with it that I also get a ride in Pete's should a new deal come together lol

Greg Guimond
03-22-2015, 12:11 PM
With what hopefully is our last snow storm of the Winter yesterday I'm thinking about getting on the water and boating by April. I guess I should have left the cover on the grill !
Will try and figure out some more speeds with the Team Warlock 23 Offshores to add to my useless store of information.

So far it looks like this

330hp = 66mph
454 330 hp, Bravo 1 drive with 1:50 gears, nose cone, Mercury 23 three blade = 62mph with 4 adults
500hp = 83mph
525hp = 77mph spinning a Mirage 25p 3 blade turning 4900 RPM (ConQ's 23)
680hp = 91mph (best of 92.6 fastest in the US) spinning a Spinelli 28p 4 blade, (exact model unknown) turning 5750 RPM

*all of these speeds are in freshwater
.

Greg Guimond
07-06-2015, 08:05 AM
There is a gentleman who has a 23 Offshore with a 1988 454 330hp. He clocks 63mph on GPS with full 50 gallon fuel tank. The Mercruiser 330 was crank rated and made about 295hp at the prop running a Quadrajet.

330hp = 63mph spinning a 24p 3 blade turning 4800 RPM
330hp = 66mph
500hp = 83mph
525hp = 77mph spinning a Mirage 25p 3 blade turning 4900 RPM
680hp = 91mph (best of 92.6 fastest in the US) spinning a Spinelli 28p 4 blade, (exact model unknown) turning 5750 RPM

*all of these speeds are in freshwater

Greg Guimond
10-25-2015, 09:50 AM
.
Just when I thought that I had the entire Team Warlock line up down cold, I find out that they built a "Bench Seat" 23. This is a factory boat built in 1989 and it still has the OEM interior. They must have had a Donzi.
.

Conquistador_del_mar
10-26-2015, 01:08 PM
Interesting that they made the front bench seat model - not practical in my book.

Greg Guimond
12-07-2015, 10:00 AM
Here is a bare bones hull only for sale. Not sure if it is has the optional core in the layup or not. That was an expensive option.

Greg Guimond
01-11-2016, 08:28 AM
Unfortunately the bare hull went to the crusher. One less Team Warlock 23 Offshore in the world :frown:

Greg Guimond
09-22-2017, 08:35 AM
..........
The Mass Mafia boys have been racing there 1990 Team Warlock 23 with great results this year.