Volvo DP info/opinions please

[woobs]

So I just bought this old 16.... and whaddyaknow, a complete 1985 Volvo DP opportunity finds me. Now I don't know "jack" about Volvos other than the bulletproof reputation... always been a Merc guy. But, I realize many Donzis used them. I'm a bit afraid I'll buy something without power trim (does a 270 have p.trim?) but this Volvo DP is a complete flywheel to prop(s) deal at $1,000. I'm looking to build a hot rod (347) SBF for the 16.

Will this 1985 DP work on a 16? too heavy? do they have p.trim?
What drive woud work well with a 16 and a SBF?

78231

Thanks,

S.

[mattyboy]

a few thoughts

yes the volvo have a great rep but I would not under any circumstances cut any hole in a virgin transom that is other than the new volvo and merc standard cutout so volvo would be an sx or newer . this way if the dp doesn't work or if something fails you have more options


volvo duo props expensive and could be hard to find the right set on the older stuff.

a hot rod ford is going to cost you more that a hotter chevy, exhaust, parts are just way more

if you are set on a sbf and volvo look for a mid 1990's setup they used the 5.8 sbf with the SX drive they do have a DP setup that works on that sx cutout which is the same as merc

VOLVO stuff is heavy even the old aq's are heavy there is about 150 lbs difference in an old SB AQ225-270 and the new VP380 DP setup , of course the newer vp380 has alum parts fwc and vvt is heavier by 150lbs and I imagine a dp handling and 380 hp would make a 16 scoot along pretty good.
They do make a 6.2 430 dp version now too :yes:

[Morgan's Cloud]

Do you have more info on exactly which model it is ? I don't think that at that time the Volvo DP's were as hydrodynamic as the more recent stuff. It may be the 290DP
The seller should tell you if its got trim or not.
Yes, the 270's and 280's were available with trim . Just not on every single one like it has been with Mercs .
The weight difference is really only because of the extra prop much like it is with the B3 .

I'm a great proponent of the DP units , as are a few others as seen in the recent thread by DW in relation to putting a two prop unit on his new C18.

Do not fall for the erroneous opinions from the tut tutters who mistakenly think they're only for large heavy cruisers.

edit: Matty got in seconds before me but his points about the transom cutout are very valid.
Personally I find the possible 150lb weight difference a bit of a stretch .(respects due to Matty)
The engines are the same , package for package , and a 270 ,280 ,290 are probably only a bit more in weight than an Alpha1. 150lbs seems a lot to me .

[mattyboy]

the weight difference is from a 225 hp small block with complete transom housing drive exhaust aq270 and the weight of the new complete alum 6.2 vp 380 dp setup .


here are the two drives the dp 29- is probably what an 85 would be good price if I had a 290 on an existing boat but if It was a new transom I would not cut a 290 into it

and the newer sx type dp

[mattyboy]

volvo penta vp380 specs


I lied sorry it was a 176lbs the small block chevy aq260 with a 290 drive weighs 900lbs


Technical Data
Engine designation.................................... V8-380
Propeller shaft power kW (hp).................. 283 (380)
Max. engine speed, rpm............................ 6000
Displacement, l (cu in).............................. 6.0 (364)
Number of cylinders................................. V-8
Fuel system............................................ ... MPI
Recommended fuel.................................. 87 octane or greater/ up to 10% ethanol
Bore/stroke, mm....................................... 101.6/91.9
in......................................... (4.00/3.62)
Compression ratio..................................... 9.67:1
Volvo Penta Duoprop drive...................... DPS
Ratio............................................. ............ 2.14:1, 1.95:1
Package weight; engine, transom shield
and drive, kg (lb)...................................... 488 (1076)
Dimensions (not for installation):
Engine length
along crank center line, mm (in.).............. 973 (38.3)
Engine width, mm (in.)............................. 830 (32.7)
Height above crankshaft, mm (in.)........... 607 (23.9)
Height below crankshaft, mm (in.)........... 208 (8.2)

- See more at: http://www.volvopenta.com/volvopenta/na/en-us/our_company/press_releases/_layouts/CWP.Internet.VolvoCom/NewsItem.aspx?News.ItemId=130671&News.Language=en-gb#sthash.cgxOg4kB.dpuf

[woobs]

Okay, that's great info. Thanks.

If I need to move away from an older Volvo then it does not really matter which brand drive I use. So I'll most likely go back to an Alpha...they are plentyful. And less $ than a Volvo.

As for the SBF, I wanted to keep the boat somewhat representative of the early SS16. Also, I have a lot of "mustang" friends and a good core is no trouble. I figured aluminum heads & intake, electric pump and some Glenwood log manifolds might work out.

But, if weight is the issue I suppose I can go back to what I know and use a GM 4.3 V6. My last one did fairly well with a conservative build to produce 236 HP. I know I can get quite a bit more out of it and it may be worth it.....i can always paint it blue :)

Going back to what I know is not necessarily a bad thing as I can still tart it up to look the part. The 16 should be lighter than my woody and have better balance. If I can get the little V6 over 250 she should rock.

[Ghost]

Just dreaming out loud, but one of those 220 php Volvo DP diesels would be an interesting plant for a 16. 737 lbs for engine, transom and drive, if I recall correctly.

[mattyboy]

Woobs

I think I may have mis-stated my point on weight

it was fairly common in the mid to late 70's that a 16 was powered by a 351 ford or a CC350flv with the volvo aq drive of the time they tipped the scales complete mill, housing, and drive at 900 to 933 lbs. In a project like yours where a new tank will be installed the 175 lbs of increased weight from the new volvo vp 380 can be offset with a larger tank or a tank shifted fwd. I think the benefits of a DP and 380 HP will be fairly evident on a 16.

I understand your feelings on the ford but there are disadvantages and hurdles to building a hot ford in the marine environment with available wet exhausts.
I would stay away from any end dump log style risers especially if you plan on going above stock power. center risers or hitek risers are going to be needed if not something custom from cmi or another mfg'r. I just went thru this myself on the benchseat trying to keep vintage old volvo and ford. Never again the next power on this boat or any other project I undertake will be original as possible on the boat but the powertrain will be modern with all the benefits. I am a huge volvo fan the old stuff is great tough and lasts but any new power I use will be new volvo stuff I am not a merc fan . But that being said if I had a new fresh transom and couldn't go Volvo due to cost I would use a merc bravo/BIII even if a 290 or 280T was complete and free. I feel that a good restoration done today on a 45-50 yr old boat will last another 45-50 yrs so in 20 yrs from now do I want 70yr old technology on the boat or 20 yr old technology on the boat. My point in a few years what will the availabilty of parts be for the old aq stuff, some stuff is hard to find now and not cheap.

the alpha plan is ok there are a few rh merc drives running on older lh helm classics that with a good prop,some tab and trim run very well. the v6 plan works as well

[Morgan's Cloud]

Matty , when I brought up my scepticism of the weight differences I was thinking about the standard 350/454 Merc/Volvo packages up to present day .The new Volvo 380 is a horse of a totally different colour.

The last paragraph of your post above represents the power of practical thought !
All very valid and stuff that anyone considering the resto of an older Donzi should give serious thought to.

Basically it's what I ended up with when my St T was completed. Virtually original boat but all new power WITH the now standardized transom cutout.

[woobs]

I appreciate the collective wisdom and experience here.

In this case I might hold out for a new Volvo drive if this were a bigger boat (a 22 maybe) that I was going to keep. Your point is well made about the cut out and that is the way I will go. However, even a B3 is heavier and more $. If I were to spend that I'd still go for the new Volvo.

But, this is a learning project...(I'm learning already) and is not my "ultimate" build boat, rather my 'penultimate" build. In this light an Alpha will have to do I think. Unless a steal of a deal comes along. Even then I might save that for the "dream". (I would have loved that benchseat Hornet that was out west.....)

Now to decide on power... 4.3 V6 for weight, SBC for power or (now not likley) SBF for posterity.

These boats are a light layup. Do you think I'll have to beef up the stringers if I go SBC?

[Just Say N20]

Some random thoughts. . . .

I have a 1967 Ski-Sporter that I completely resto-modded. 409/430+ hp. Volvo 290 with trim. Solas 23" prop @ 5,300 rpms is 65.2 GPS mph.

I have a friend (stop laughing, it could happen) with a 1999 Sweet 16 running the OMC Cobra drive, and 190 hp 4.3 V6. His boat will run 55 all day long (21" SS prop). At top end, it runs flat, and handles very predictably. Mine does neither.

The old Volvo's are virtually bullet proof, and because I didn't have to redo my transom, and the drive had trim, I left it.

However, every time Greg and I run together, I fairly boggles my mind at how his 190 hp, V6 boat does 80% or more of what my 430 hp boat does, only with less drama, and burning less fuel.

Make no mistake, I LOVE the sound of a slightly cammed V8. That is why I built this boat like I did. In the small world of my mind, I built a Donzi that looks and sounds EXACTLY as I think a Pocket Offshore boat should. I would never use a '67 Ski-Sporter as the starting platform to make an uber-fast offshore type boat.

If a person isn't afflicted with the "V8 Sound" curse, there are a TON of reasons to build a V6 for the Classic 16s. I took about 130 lbs out of my engine with CMI headers vs cast center-risers, and an Edlebrock Aluminum intake vs the stock cast iron dual plan. But Greg's 16 still sits much flatter in the water at rest than mine does.

I dare say, that if he upped the hp on his V6 to around 300 hp, his boat would be more stable, and faster on top end than mine. With 500 ft lbs of torque, I will still walk just about anything out there in this style boat from 0 - 60. And with the Volvo, I'm not even slightly concerned about hurting the drive.

My point is that although you will most likely never break an old style Volvo, they are very inefficient. Rootsy's 16, running an Alpha SS, with around the same hp as I have, was 15 mph FASTER.

With a Merc product you will have a much more efficient unit, and almost infinitely more prop selection to work with.

As far as originality, that's your call. There are a lot of 16s around. Most people buy a Donzi to RUN it. New stuff runs much better than old stuff. I would make it exactly like YOU want it. Unless you are the type of person who gets some personal satisfaction out of knowingly taking the hardest path possible, just so you can say you did it, I would ace the Ford power, and run with GM. This isn't a Ford vs Chevy thing. As Matty so eloquently stated, the is so little out their for SBF marine, and so much out there for SBC marine, why not make your life easy.

I would love to see you build a 4.3 blower motor with 370 - 400 hp mated to a Merc product. I suspect that even with a 260 hp NA V6, and a Merc drive you would be over 60.

Just my 2¢.

[woobs]

Over the past couple of days of digging in to this (and with Mattys advice weighing heavily) I am pretty sure I'll be using an Alpha. So, the question is what to use to turn it.

I have just finished a conservatively built 4.3 on my woody boat . I used an alloy circulating pump, Aluminum intake and lightweight Hi-Tek exhaust manifolds to shed weight. It dyno'd in at 236 HP and with a 1.47:1 alpha and a 19p High Five watersports prop it pushes my woody to a tick under 50 mph.

I know I can build a more powerful 4.3 but how much more??? And what will that translate to in boat performance and reliability. I can set up the drive ratio differently and change the prop too...I'm sure I can get 55-58 mph out of my woody but it's not that kind if boat. The Ski Sporter would be faster. I'm a big fan of this motor and keeping everything light however, I not too wild about forced induction and the 5K it costs is out of the question. For that $ figure I could get a SBC aluminum block and heads!

So, the SBC is the other option. It will take more space and weigh more (unless I spend cubic dollars) but, I also think of resale on the boat. How desireable is a V6 vs the V8? Even if the V8 were slower it is, imho still more desirable. the costs of building one are quite similar to the V6 and there are plenty of options for it's configuration. The only drawbacks are size and weight and potential beefing up of the stringers/transom.

I'll still have to think about this for a while..... but, either way this will be a fun boat to drive.
7824378242

[Just Say N20]

Over the past couple of days of digging in to this (and with Mattys advice weighing heavily) I am pretty sure I'll be using an Alpha. So, the question is what to use to turn it. Probably a good choice. :)


I know I can build a more powerful 4.3 but how much more??? And what will that translate to in boat performance and reliability....The Ski Sporter would be faster. I'm a big fan of this motor and keeping everything light however, I not too wild about forced induction and the 5K it costs is out of the question. I'm good at spending other people's money! For that $ figure I could get a SBC aluminum block and heads! This will necessitate closed loop cooling. It can be done, but there isn't a lot of space in the 16 engine bay with a V8 in there. Mine had closed loop when I bought it. I didn't (against gcarter's good advice) put it back in. But as long as I own the boat, it will never be in salt water.

So, the SBC is the other option. It will take more space and weigh more (unless I spend cubic dollars) but, I also think of resale on the boat. How desireable is a V6 vs the V8? Even if the V8 were slower it is, imho still more desirable. I would agree. Having watched what 16s have sold for, the V8 models do bring a higher dollar. As an aside, there has been a 16 for sale for a long time with a 3.0 I4 engine in it. I contacted the dealer to verify it wasn't a typo in the ad. It wasn't, and he admitted that people interested in a Donzi, are also interested in performance. The costs of building one are quite similar to the V6 and there are plenty of options for it's configuration. The only drawbacks are size and weight and potential beefing up of the stringers/transom. Horsepower is horsepower. If you are concerned, you should beef them up regardless of your V6 or V8 decision.

I'll still have to think about this for a while..... but, either way this will be a fun boat to drive. :) :hyper:
7824378242

Blue

[BUIZILLA]

Woobs, I am really impressed with what you have done with this V6, and the thought and tidyness involved, more people should take notice... a reliable pump gas 300hp is not out of the question

[woobs]

Woobs, I am really impressed with what you have done with this V6, and the thought and tidyness involved, more people should take notice... a reliable pump gas 300hp is not out of the question
Thanks Buiz.

How do you think I could best get there (300HP)? Cam, porting, bump compression?

[mattyboy]

Bill's thoughts are true blue ;)

before I start getting the emails and pm's how can a member of the LGDCC say to modernize the power and not keep them original let me clarify my point. If I had( and i do) a solid older volvo classic that didn't need any glass work I would always try to keep it original and find the best available drive train with out re-doing the transom. if it was a 200-270 find a 280t and get trim if it was a 290 boat find the best drive i could as a spare and keep the boat solid for the future. But if it was a total resto and it had virgin glass it needs modern power IMO of course there are other factors, is it rare, is it of any historical value or does it have any other significant provenance? The biggest key as Bill said is they are meant to run and there is no better PR for our hobby then to see boats like Bill's and Jay's The sting The pumpkin, sweet cheekz,shady lady out there running on the water. sorry if I left anyone out . All of these boats are different in personality from all original to original with modern power to all out resto mod.
On my project I had to deal with the ford that was modernized half azzed with jury rigged stuff that didn't really fit on an old HM ford like quick and quiet, power steering ,trim. looking back I didn't want to drill holes in the solid stringers to keep it original. I should have re-glassed and re-drilled for modern ford power moving the front motor mounts and using new water pump, alt and power steering from a ford omc/volvo boat but leaving the 280t. Then having to pull back from building a stronger motor due to cost and availbility. Yeah sure when you pull up to the gas pump everyone comes out wow neat an old ford then they see you trying to keep up with all the other 20 footers and their black stuff
:rolleyes:

ok coming back . we had a young kid around 16 or so show up to the Dudt-Off a decade or so ago he had an omc 4.3 16 he ran the boat well and hard I could not get anywhere near him in a volvo 250 351 boat with around 310 hp. He was running mid to high 50's and making it look easy. so there is a lot to think about with strong lightweight power in the 16 .

[woobs]

Matt I think you are "bang on". I believe in making anything you own suit your own purpose and in that pursuit I'm not really a purist. But, if I owned a 1973 Porsche Carrera RS for example... it would be crazy to have it anything but factory spec or as raced if a significant car/driver. That is respect for the marque. My 1972 911S was anything but factory, yet true to the era...it's what I wanted and it was a good car to do it with.

That being said, It's also great to preserve the originality of vehicles that can be preserved. Over the couple of weeks I have been thinking on this topic quite a bit. While it would be nice to save and restore my (new to me) SS 16 , it is not really practical. Accurate production information cannot be established and there is no hint that this hull is significant in any way other than it is an early production one.

The advice I have asked for (and received), from this board is sound. With the lack of provinance of this hull and the current state of the restoration/refit, the best application for this DONZI is to be driven...a lot. Make it reliable, make it fun, make it cool and make it mine.

I have to thank all those that have weighed in to point out the available options and the benefit of their experience. The upshot of these opinions is that they help me make informed decisions and save me both $ and grief (and probably time too). This is such a great community!

7825378254

My wife just pointed out the similarity in colour between these two toys of mine..... It might not be the only thing they have in common. :)

[Morgan's Cloud]

Make it reliable, make it fun, make it cool and make it mine.



Trust me , when you've done a nice 'resto' / rebuild and you're out running the boat and you bury the throttle at 40mph and it nearly throws you out the back the last thing you're going to be worried about is if it doesn't have an original transom light or gauges , or ...

[MOP]

No matter what comes of any project some will love and some will not for reasons of their choosing. No matter what is done it can always revert or go forward to suit you or the next lucky fellow! Suit yourself and have a ball:checkered:

[woobs]

Yep, I agree!

I'm on board for a unique experience for a SS16. Thinkin' is right now, that I'll do a lightweight 4.3L on steroids...maybe some funky brodix heads (if I win the lottery). Alloy intake, electric circulating pump, lightweight exhaust, hairy cam...some bling valve covers, y'know tart it up real nice. The target will be 300HP on the dyno...We'll see, lots to do first and I don't need to pay for anything today.

BTW, is there any way to shorten an Alpha (other than finding an SS to start)? I'd like to get this motor as low in the hull as possible.

[BUIZILLA]

I like your thinking...

[vciaszqm]

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