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View Full Version : POLL : Engine Lube Oil Coolers ?



silverghost
08-29-2013, 02:18 AM
This poll thread is about engine lubricating oil cooler use on our Donzi performance speedboats.

Included here are~~
Factory built production marined engines such as Mercruiser, OMC, Holman~Moody, Chris~Craft etc. which may have been originally equipped with a factory installed engine oil cooler .
&
Custom-built High Performance Engines~~~ with & without engine oil coolers.

Standard Oil Coolers
Thermostatically Controlled Oil Coolers
Power Steering Oil Coolers
SuperCharger/TurboCharger Oil Coolers
Power Steering Oil Coolers
Hydraulic Transmission & V-Drive Gearbox Oil Coolers

You can also leave a post with your comments or opinions, pro or con, on engine lube oil coolers and their usefullness & benefits, or potential weakness.

gcarter
08-29-2013, 09:22 AM
I'm a bit confused.....
When you say custom, what comes to my mind is having a shop build a specific cooler to your requirements.
So, to me, a Revolution Marine 3" X 18" cooler is a stock item good for probably 700 HP and is offered at a good price

http://i22.ebayimg.com/06/i/08/ee/06/00_2.JPG

on an ongoing basis on eBay;

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Revolution-Marine-Severe-Duty-Oil-Cooler-Assembly-/221153820599?pt=Boat_Parts_Accessories_Gear&hash=item337dcb7fb7&vxp=mtr

I would have bought one of these (at least eventually) had Michael Brown (Blown Crew Cab) not sent me a cooler from a 350 HP Diesel (continuous rating) at no charge. It's 2.5" in diameter and 15" long, much larger than a stock Merc cooler.

silverghost
08-29-2013, 12:28 PM
George~
I should have worded that "Custom Engine Build" not custom oil cooler.

John C in PA
08-29-2013, 02:28 PM
I'm a bit confused.....
When you say custom, what comes to my mind is having a shop build a specific cooler to your requirements.
So, to me, a Revolution Marine 3" X 18" cooler is a stock item good for probably 700 HP and is offered at a good price

http://i22.ebayimg.com/06/i/08/ee/06/00_2.JPG

on an ongoing basis on eBay;

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Revolution-Marine-Severe-Duty-Oil-Cooler-Assembly-/221153820599?pt=Boat_Parts_Accessories_Gear&hash=item337dcb7fb7&vxp=mtr

I would have bought one of these (at least eventually) had Michael Brown (Blown Crew Cab) not sent me a cooler from a 350 HP Diesel (continuous rating) at no charge. It's 2.5" in diameter and 15" long, much larger than a stock Merc cooler.

George, how much did your oil capacity increase with the cooler? Do you have any idea of your before and after oil temps? Thanks, John C

gcarter
08-30-2013, 09:51 AM
John, I think the stock cooler is 1-1/4" dia. X 9" long and is rated by many to be good for 425 HP.......maybe in the cold water at the home of Merc in Wisconsin, but I wouldn't be so confident here in the south.
I suppose a thermostatically controlled cooler in colder water is a good idea, maybe even essential.
I suppose the capacity is increased by a pint. I can't address before and after differences since I have never run this boat, in fact it still hasn't run, although it's getting close.
I did install an oil temp. gauge in the new panel so I'll know what the result is w/this cooler.

f_inscreenname
08-30-2013, 12:23 PM
Just a bit of info that I picked up in the past. Make sure the oil line inlet and outlet are as big as the hoses you are running to it. More then once I've read where people use a big oil cooler with small fittings and wonder why their oil pressure dropped off.

John C in PA
08-30-2013, 04:02 PM
I did install an oil temp. gauge in the new panel so I'll know what the result is w/this cooler.

George, where did you install the temp probe?

John C

gcarter
08-30-2013, 06:33 PM
George, where did you install the temp probe?

John C

John, it's located in the pan. It's screwed into a Tee that also accommodates the oil drain hose.

Conquistador_del_mar
08-30-2013, 06:52 PM
John, it's located in the pan. It's screwed into a Tee that also accommodates the oil drain hose.

George,
I believe you will get a lot cooler reading with the sender in the T rather than in the pan or some place where there is a flow. Bill

gcarter
08-30-2013, 08:15 PM
Bill, I've been kicking this idea around for a long time (over a year) and I believe the entire assembly will reach the same temperature (i.e., the pan, Tee, and probe all come to the ambient temperature once the engine reaches operating temperature). The probe is somewhat long and extends well into the Tee. I believe the probe end is within 3/4" of the end of the Tee and the actual oil of the pan is flooding the Tee. I really don't think you would see any discernable Delta T whether the probe was screwed directly into the pan, or if it was in the same oil but 3/4" away. Also, the oil in the pan is somewhat turbulent and constantly moving. Over time, I came to the conclusion that this is a good workable location..........once it reached operating temp. I think initially though, you're correct.
I also thought about locating it in the cooler inlet, but then it really a long way from the engine.
What WOULD be interesting is to put one in the pan, one in the filter head, and one each before and after the cooler.

John C in PA
08-30-2013, 08:27 PM
George,
I believe you will get a lot cooler reading with the sender in the T rather than in the pan or some place where there is a flow. Bill

In my 302 Ford, the hard pipe from the motor to the pressure sender was 1/4". The oil temp sender I was going to install was 1/4" diameter so I added a T(so I could keep the pressure guage) and bushed the temp side up to 3/8" to allow the sender to be surrounded by oil. I ran on the hose and although I got a normal oil pressure reading I didn't get an temp readings after 10 minutes (it was a 110-240 degree guage). I removed the T and reverted back to a pressure switch only. Yes, I chacked the guage and it worked fine.

John C

John C in PA
08-30-2013, 08:31 PM
Bill, I've been kicking this idea around for a long time (over a year) and I believe the entire assembly will reach the same temperature (i.e., the pan, Tee, and probe all come to the ambient temperature once the engine reaches operating temperature). The probe is somewhat long and extends well into the Tee. I believe the probe end is within 3/4" of the end of the Tee and the actual oil of the pan is flooding the Tee. I really don't think you would see any discernable Delta T whether the probe was screwed directly into the pan, or if it was in the same oil but 3/4" away. Also, the oil in the pan is somewhat turbulent and constantly moving. Over time, I came to the conclusion that this is a good workable location.
I also thought about locating it in the cooler inlet, but then it really a long way from the engine.
What WOULD be interesting is to put one in the pan, one in the filter head, and one each before and after the cooler.

FWIW, if my motor was on a stand I would have had a bushing welded into the bottom of the oil pan and take my oil temp there. Its not too late George.

John C

CHACHI
08-30-2013, 09:15 PM
Brad, it is interesting that you started this poll.

I was going to put up a post about oil temp after a good run last weekend.

First some background info.

1999 22 Classic with a internally stock 454, externally I have EMI headers.

Thermostat is a 160 and I think it holds 7 quarts of oil, it's 20w50 semi-synthetic.

Boat runs ALL the time 160-162 water temp.

Cruising around 3K or so, oil temp is 190.

I grab the temp from the mounting plate of the filter.

So, heading back to camp from A-Bay, approx 15 miles, I started to push the stick.

I cruised 8-10 miles of the return trip at 50-60 MPH.

The last 5 or so miles I opened it up and was running 72-74 at 4900-5000.

Water temp was dead nuts at 160-162, oil temp rose to and held at 260-265.

River water temp was high 60's to low 70's.

I lifted about a third of a mile from my boat house and idled in.

With the oil temp still 260 or so, my oil pressure was 20-22 at 600 RPM.

Before I made it to the boat house oil temp returned to normal, 190. Stupid me, I didn't check the oil pressure.

I would have to think in the above scenario my cooler is properly sized to this engines performance.

I do not know how these number would play out in Florida in August

I would think, if I was pushing more horsepower, a larger cooler would be necessary.

Ken

gcarter
08-30-2013, 09:26 PM
One thing to keep in mind John, this Tee isn't 1/4", or 3/8", but 1/2" pipe which is 1/2" inside diameter.....it does make a difference. Also, the distance is pretty short.
The pan's not coming back off!!!!!! so here's the other option:
The Dart block has some features on the back that're different from GM blocks. If you look at the manual page, you'll see a 1/2" NPT port for oil supply for a dry sump system (I think). I could mount it there, but the oil would be from the cooler and wouldn't be indicative of the actual operating conditions, also the distance from the port down to the gallery is pretty long, so the same problem (if it is a problem) would exist.
Here's also a picture showing the 1/2" port (If you look closely) just on the other side of the plumbing for the oil pressure sender and the Holley fuel pump safety switch.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=77184&d=1377912318

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=77185&d=1377912373

John C in PA
08-30-2013, 09:50 PM
I agree your T is a lot larger diameter than the one I used so the oil should flood the sender much easier. My comment was just to provide my experience with a 6" long 1/4" pipe bushed up to a 3/8" T. Considering the location of your sender you should get a reading right away. Due to the laughable access to my oil pan drain plug I don't know how I can install a sender short of pulling the motor.

John C

Conquistador_del_mar
08-31-2013, 02:46 AM
George,
Your sender might work, but I pointed it out since my Shelby Cobra was rigged that same way and the oil temp does not climb much at all after running hard on a Stewart Warner 340 degree gauge - maybe 130 degrees. As a caveat, my sender is in a 3/8" tube that is 3" from the engine block, but I am thinking you might run into the same situation where it reads too low - probably much closer to the actual temp than mine. I have not gotten around to fixing mine yet, but it is on my list. Here is a picture of my sender at the end of the T with the oil pressure sender in the Cobra.

gcarter
08-31-2013, 07:29 AM
That Ford engine is tight, isn't it Bill!
One problem I've encountered in the past using "stand-off" tubes like your Ford, and John's, is that a bit of air can get trapped in the end where the sensor is (think of a capillary tube), where a pressure reading is obtainable because the air will compress but it won't transmit temperature very well. I'm not saying that's the case w/yours, or Johns, but it would contribute if it were. If you think about it, there's really no way to get air out, and for pressure readings, there's really no deed to.

In my case, if you blow up the picture of the Tee, you'll see there's a 1/4" X 1/2" bushing the Sender is screwed into. If mine turns out to be a problem (and hopefully it won't), I could drill and tap a 1/4" NPT hole in (or near) the bottom shoulder of the pan casting, and mount it there. For now though, it'll stay as it is, after all, it will be flooded continuously w/oil from the pan.

joseph m. hahnl
08-31-2013, 08:47 AM
I think a nipple pipe would inhibit the reading. The Street T is nice and short:biggrin: You might gain a little with a Billet machined Street T over the Cast Street T fitting. :rolleyes:.

I've been contemplating a cooler. I chose aluminum for the oil pan and timing chain cover to dissipate heat quicker. I would like to have had the valve covers aluminum, but I had to use the stock height perimeter mount steel stamped Edelbrock covers, to fit the roller rockers and maintain the clearance for the shifter linkage bracket. Coolers don't fair well in the north east winter, if you don't drain them:tooth: Mop voted they just leak water in the oil :p

gcarter
08-31-2013, 02:11 PM
I stated this above, but didn't think of the significance at the time, but if a person has a (stock, or otherwise) oil cooler, and if they're trying to get an oil temp from a pressure port, then the temp will be from down stream of the cooler and filter and probably has little to do w/oil operating temps from bearing drainage. It may be a good indication of how effective the cooler is, but won't represent the oil temp in the pan.
Bill, don't most all Cobras have an oil to air cooler located just in front of the radiator?

Conquistador_del_mar
08-31-2013, 02:24 PM
I stated this above, but didn't think of the significance at the time, but if a person has a (stock, or otherwise) oil cooler, and if they're trying to get an oil temp from a pressure port, then the temp will be from down stream of the cooler and filter and probably has little to do w/oil operating temps from bearing drainage. It may be a good indication of how effective the cooler is, but won't represent the oil temp in the pan.
Bill, don't most all Cobras have an oil to air cooler located just in front of the radiator?

Yes George, my Cobra has the oil cooler in the front. I have not studied the flow lines yet, but I was thinking about installing the temp sender in the pan. I suppose if it were installed at the engine where the hot oil line heads out to the cooler, it would be a suitable location too?

gcarter
08-31-2013, 03:08 PM
Yes George, my Cobra has the oil cooler in the front. I have not studied the flow lines yet, but I was thinking about installing the temp sender in the pan. I suppose if it were installed at the engine where the hot oil line heads out to the cooler, it would be a suitable location too?

Yes, I think it would.

Just for clarification on our marine engines w/remote filters and coolers, it's:
Oil in pan
Oil pumps from pan to filter
Through filter to cooler
From cooler to oil gallery.......and that's where you and John were trying to get a temp from.........
I suppose it's possible your reading was reasonably accurate.

Carl C
08-31-2013, 05:01 PM
I have an oil cooler but a quick test that I do is to see how hot the oil filter is. I should almost be able to hold my hand on it. I also carry an infrared heat gun that I can aim at the oil pan. I frequently pop open the engine hatch to look things over.

MOP
08-31-2013, 07:39 PM
It is important not to over cool! You should be in the low 200's, this is born out by many oil threads. Most stock and mild HP setups are just fine with small stock coolers, most all knowledgeable high HP engine guys use thermostatically regulated coolers. When oil is to cool not only does it not flow as well but also it gets contaminated with moisture, the moisture is the witish muck many find in there valve covers.

John C in PA
08-31-2013, 08:06 PM
This has turned into an interesting and informative thread (even after Chachi wrongly confused me with Silverghost for starting it :D). It's my belief that for my situation (200 HP stock HO) I don't need an oil cooler and that, IMO, the best place to install a temp probe is in the bottom of the pan. That will indicate the temperature of the oil after its "been thru the wringer".

John C in PA

BUIZILLA
08-31-2013, 08:11 PM
best place to install a temp probe is in the bottom of the pan. That will indicate the temperature of the oil after its "been thru the wringer".

John C in PA exactly correct

olredalert
08-31-2013, 09:28 PM
----John,,,You really dont want to be confused with SG! My Finos two 454/390s Oil temps run right at 220-225 at speed. The pick-up location is in the pans on the side. I consider the guage to be pretty accurate........Bill S

yeller
08-31-2013, 11:47 PM
Yes, I think it would.

Just for clarification on our marine engines w/remote filters and coolers, it's:
Oil in pan
Oil pumps from pan to filter
Through filter to cooler
From cooler to oil gallery.......and that's where you and John were trying to get a temp from.........
I suppose it's possible your reading was reasonably accurate.
I will run the oil through the cooler, then the filter. I feel better knowing the filter is there to catch any crud that might come from the cooler.

silverghost
09-01-2013, 08:16 AM
When using an engine oil cooler with an additional thermostatically controlled cooler bypass valve feature to allow the oil to heat up before actually going to your oil cooler to eleminate condensation water contamination ~~~
What temp should be the maximum to allow the water to vapor-off out of the oil~~~
Above water's normal boiling point at running altitude?
Ie: 212* F + at sea level ?

Would this not be normally too hot a temp to run your engine oil ?
After all~~~most older boat engines ran water cooling thermostats at 160* in fresh water ~and 140* in salt water. I doubt the oil temps ever got that high, , 212*+ F, in these older engines ?
New mosern FI marine engines today run much hotter .

CHACHI
09-01-2013, 08:40 PM
Brad, 180 MIN.

See my post #13 for a modern engine oil temps, well at least my modern day engine, if you can call a '99 modern day.

Ken

Pat McPherson
09-03-2013, 08:26 PM
I've got the stock oil coolers for engine oil and power steering fluid on my 502 mag carp engine. I have in the past used a Revolution Marine oil cooler with power steering fluid all in one rated for 500HP on a 502Mag MPI that I rebuilt. I don't have a oil temp gauge on my current 502 but I did on the last. Water temp was 160 and oil between 190 and 230 when the engine was right. Both of these engines also had the stock cooling systems with circ pump and stat.
I have built a few high output engines that used crossovers in place of the circ pumps and getting the cooling water flow correct so the engine oil would get up to temp was a challenge. A thermo controlled oil cooler would have been the ticket.