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silverghost
08-24-2013, 02:25 AM
There is a 64 Benchseat Single Seat Hornet for sale in Sweden.
Photos, description & price in their advert.
The boat is a V-Drive , now restored, and the listing said it was bought out of Florida USA just a few years back .

I assume it was a known Bench Seat Hornet survivor ?

Or~~~Could this have been a new discovery ?

Does anyone know anything more about this boat , or it's past ownership history ?

Is this the partially dis-assembled Bench Seat Hornet that was sitting with a group of many other old boats in a Fla. storage warehouse that was once offered for sale here a few years ago ?

Just Say N20
08-24-2013, 07:04 AM
A link to the ad might prove helpful. . . .

Scott Pearson
08-24-2013, 12:05 PM
I have known about this boat for years. It's no secret. I'm personal friends with the owner and know this boat and it's history. If anyone is seriously interested and has the money and not looking for a 4k Hornet you cam PM me.

Man.... This place is getting stupid!

bertsboat
08-24-2013, 01:09 PM
Man.... This place is getting stupid? What's that mean?


I have known about this boat for years. It's no secret. I'm personal friends with the owner and know this boat and it's history. If anyone is seriously interested and has the money and not looking for a 4k Hornet you cam PM me.

Man.... This place is getting stupid!

Scott Pearson
08-24-2013, 01:38 PM
Yes Bert.... Was It ment for everyone on the board.... Really??????

Give me a break..... Stop sirring things up.

dsparis
08-24-2013, 02:38 PM
I have known about this boat for years. It's no secret. I'm personal friends with the owner and know this boat and it's history. If anyone is seriously interested and has the money and not looking for a 4k Hornet you cam PM me.

Man.... This place is getting stupid!

Sure does sound pompous
pomp·ous
ˈpämpəs
adjective
adjective: pompous
1.
affectedly and irritatingly grand, solemn, or self-important.
"a pompous ass who pretends he knows everything"


synonyms:
self-important, imperious (http://www.google.com/search?biw=1280&bih=633&q=define+imperious&sa=X&ei=SwsZUu-kHuWbygHS44GIDw&sqi=2&ved=0CCsQ_SooADAA), overbearing (http://www.google.com/search?biw=1280&bih=633&q=define+overbearing&sa=X&ei=SwsZUu-kHuWbygHS44GIDw&sqi=2&ved=0CCwQ_SooATAA), domineering, magisterial (http://www.google.com/search?biw=1280&bih=633&q=define+magisterial&sa=X&ei=SwsZUu-kHuWbygHS44GIDw&sqi=2&ved=0CC0Q_SooAjAA), pontifical (http://www.google.com/search?biw=1280&bih=633&q=define+pontifical&sa=X&ei=SwsZUu-kHuWbygHS44GIDw&sqi=2&ved=0CC4Q_SooAzAA), sententious (http://www.google.com/search?biw=1280&bih=633&q=define+sententious&sa=X&ei=SwsZUu-kHuWbygHS44GIDw&sqi=2&ved=0CC8Q_SooBDAA), grandiose (http://www.google.com/search?biw=1280&bih=633&q=define+grandiose&sa=X&ei=SwsZUu-kHuWbygHS44GIDw&sqi=2&ved=0CDAQ_SooBTAA), affected (http://www.google.com/search?biw=1280&bih=633&q=define+affected&sa=X&ei=SwsZUu-kHuWbygHS44GIDw&sqi=2&ved=0CDEQ_SooBjAA), pretentious (http://www.google.com/search?biw=1280&bih=633&q=define+pretentious&sa=X&ei=SwsZUu-kHuWbygHS44GIDw&sqi=2&ved=0CDIQ_SooBzAA), puffed up, arrogant (http://www.google.com/search?biw=1280&bih=633&q=define+arrogant&sa=X&ei=SwsZUu-kHuWbygHS44GIDw&sqi=2&ved=0CDMQ_SooCDAA), vain (http://www.google.com/search?biw=1280&bih=633&q=define+vain&sa=X&ei=SwsZUu-kHuWbygHS44GIDw&sqi=2&ved=0CDQQ_SooCTAA), haughty (http://www.google.com/search?biw=1280&bih=633&q=define+haughty&sa=X&ei=SwsZUu-kHuWbygHS44GIDw&sqi=2&ved=0CDUQ_SooCjAA), proud (http://www.google.com/search?biw=1280&bih=633&q=define+proud&sa=X&ei=SwsZUu-kHuWbygHS44GIDw&sqi=2&ved=0CDYQ_SooCzAA), conceited (http://www.google.com/search?biw=1280&bih=633&q=define+conceited&sa=X&ei=SwsZUu-kHuWbygHS44GIDw&sqi=2&ved=0CDcQ_SooDDAA), egotistic, supercilious (http://www.google.com/search?biw=1280&bih=633&q=define+supercilious&sa=X&ei=SwsZUu-kHuWbygHS44GIDw&sqi=2&ved=0CDgQ_SooDTAA), condescending (http://www.google.com/search?biw=1280&bih=633&q=define+condescending&sa=X&ei=SwsZUu-kHuWbygHS44GIDw&sqi=2&ved=0CDkQ_SooDjAA), patronizing

silverghost
08-24-2013, 05:17 PM
A link to the ad might prove helpful. . . .

The Stockholm Sweden web link was active earlier this week ~~~but for some reason it appears as dead now ~~perhapps the Hornet was sold ?
Google still has a cashe of five photos of this now blue boat on their images feature however.

http://blocket.se/stockholm/Donzi_Hornet_Single_cockpit_1964_46993529.htm

As far as the Hornet in Sweden~~
I would Never BUY any boat from Stockholm Sweden sight unseen~~~and would Never consider having it shipped overseas from Sweden to the USA .

As a side observation~~
It appears that ANY,and ALL, information on all these Benchseat Hornets is always considered classified "Top Secret " by several forum members here ! ?

As far as the other comment on being Serious about actually buying a Benchseat Hornet is concerned ~~
I know for a fact their are more than a few potential serious Benchseat Hornet buyers out there for a completed boat; or a restortion project~~~
I have talked to a few as a result of my Wanted: Benchseat Hornet thread posts here~~
As many here already know~~~I am one of those Serious buyers !

BUT~~~
It woud appear Nobody in the Entire performance or Antique & Classic boating world today is now interested in buying Your engine-less & partially started/completed Benchseat Hornet project ~~~at least not at Your very high asking Prices $$$ for such incomplete and fairly rough projects ! ! ! ? ? ?
You had the"Ultimate" for sale a number of times~~with NO takers at your unrealistically High asking price~~
You had it listed on ebay at a reserve auction~~~but the worldwide pool of potential buyers did not, or would not, meet your very high unrealistic reserve price !
Everyone that might be interested knows full well that it would take at the very least $75.-4100.K to buy it and finish it correctly, re-power it, before all is said and done .
I know YOU already have invested quite a bit of time & money in your project to date ~~~
But these sorts of old boat restoration projects are really just a labor of love~~~~not a really a good sound business investment.
You will NEVER get MOST of the money $$$ , & your time, you already invested out of such a restoration project~~that is now only partially started~~and now sadly abandoned again after almost 10 years of your ownership.

Also~~~
The boat in Sweden is listed FINISHED & running ready for the water for only around $22,000 US !
Sounds like a very very cheap SUPER DEAL to me !
That boat's owner sounds much MORE than realistic in today's tough boat sales market.

In today's sluggish boat sales market, for these sorts of old rough complete boat restoration projects~~~
YOU have to be very REALISTIC in YOUR Asking pricing if YOU are really a SERIOUS SELLER !
Restoration project boats are just NOT selling for very much money at all these days~~~rare boat~~or not !
That is the true market REALITY in this present economic market !

mattyboy
08-24-2013, 08:07 PM
seems to me serious buyers and serious sellers have agreed and boats have changed hands lately . the value of these projects and condition ranges and the desire and determination can be quite remarkable in the dream quest ~~some just run their mouth~~

so how much does a 22k complete hornet in sweden cost to get back in the states? and without pics and confirming info posted ~~ how do the members of this forum~~ determine conditions of the restoration?

the restoration process and methods vary from minor to major reconstruction, it is not an easy or cheap road. Going to be interesting to see if these projects find a long term loving donzi home or if they are just finished and sold. I have been contacted by members here and also other boat guys about me hornet very easy to see the truly interested and the tire kickers.

no secrets i think most of the info and pics are out there on these bench seat hornets and let me say one thing the money not re couped in a project is usually labor and any over the top paint and motors, but hardware and parts that money always comes back cause the serious projecteer knows the true value of that


they are great boats had a chance to run Pearson and Tammy around my lake today in my benchseat , good day :yes: is it for sale? it's a boat! yes it is always for sale but it won't be given away

Scott Pearson
08-24-2013, 09:31 PM
Nothing pompous in my post. I would be happy to give people who are interested in the boat the persons contact information. Thats why I said PM me. There are certain people who love to waste others time when the have ZERO intentions on buying an item.

I certainly don’t know everything and I am more than happyto help someone out who is truly interested in a boat.

On another note…I can assure YOU…you will not find a Benchseat Hornet “unrestored original boat, or older restoration project” for 5K.The last one that sold was 11K and needed a TON of work. The one before thatwas 9.5K and that needed another 8K just to get it in the water.

As far as no one wanting my Bench Seat…I can also assure youthat I have lots of interested people. People who are serious and know what ittakes to bring one of these back the right way. And as far as it being abandoned…Idon’t think so. I continue to work on this project with the others. I did notby this boat for an investment. If that’s what YOU are looking to do you bettertake up another hobby.

silverghost
08-24-2013, 10:09 PM
The Hornet boat in SC had a ready to go newly rebuilt & rare period correct Ford Holman~Moody FE Big Block engine that came along with the newly rebuilt deck structure & repaired hull.
The rare engine alone was worth the eventual $11,000 selling price~~~

The MD rough project Hornet sold to Bert for around $5000. I believe. It was offered to me two years before for a crazy $13,000. price and I passed at that price.
Bert got a fair deal for this project in it's rough condition . I would have paid what he eventually paid in a heart-beat~~~I missed buying it by only several hours.
I am glad Bert got the project as he will do a proper job bringing this Benchseat Hornet back to life~~~It looks now like the restoration is well underway~~~Let's hope it soon hits the water again in 2014 !

Again~~~These selling prices are market REALITY !

lars
08-25-2013, 05:03 AM
Don't have the photos of the Hornet accessible now, they are in a stored hard drive. This photo is one of the cache pictures from before the start of the resto. The restoration so far was the completed structural work to hull and deck. Divinycell used throughout and all glass work well done. Re-chromed hardware and original v-drive, rudder in decent shape included. That's it. No interior, no motor, no electrical included etc. Don't believe the gages were looked over yet but at least part of the deal. Not gelcoated yet. Seller dropped asking price a couple of months ago from $35,000 to $22,500 and I believe it now has found a new owner, but haven't verified that. If bought at say $20k, one would have been into it at just about $30k titled back in say NY. Too many interesting rare boat projects for this kind of money available at this side of the pond in my opinion, but if one had deep pockets this is the kind of boat that an open check book could be justifiably applied towards. It will most likely have found a good home in Sweden now though, so at least it won't go to waste.

77092

silverghost
08-25-2013, 06:57 AM
Thank's Lars~~~

I believe the on-line advert I read from Sweden said this Hornet came with an original Ford 427 Holman~Moody engine ?
Perhapps the engine is out of the hull~but comes along with this Hornet ?
I believe the last USA/Florida owner said he had the original Holman~Moody Ford 427 that would go along with the boat deal.

The text of the online advert gave me the impression that this Hornet was freshly restored ~~~
Perhapps they were only speaking about the Hull & Deck fiberglass work + new blue color paintwork ?

If you have some time would you please post some of the additional photos, and advert description of this Hornet from your Hard Drive for everyone on the Donzi site to see & inspect.

Thank's
BRAD~

Scott Pearson
08-25-2013, 08:29 AM
If 427 FE motors were bringing 11k then I am sure someone would have already bought up the 66 DONZI barrel back v-drive or the person who owns this boat would have parted it out. Thats a true HM motor with two fours.

These engines are not bringing that sort of money any more. And it's even harder to get rid of a marine engine. These marine motors are not sought after by the car guys. There is just to many " what ifs".

mattyboy
08-25-2013, 08:33 AM
Lars,

Thanks for posting ~~accurate~~ info. So basically we have two hulls, same price ballpark at the same point full hull resto, no paint , no motor the big difference would be the assembled parts one has everything new original equipment including a bilt rite interior and is on this side of the pond the other has only some parts assembled and will cost more to get it here. all facts an interested serious buyer with cash in hand would take in mind.

What I have seen is when someone really wants one of these boats they become a student of them ,they track them, keep pictures. they jump thru flaming hoops and any hurdles in the way.

The big issue when looking at value in a project boils down to- does it have it and if not what will it cost to get it. Looking at some of the projects that are underway now some projecteers are looking for integral parts that a hard to find if at all and costly to reproduced. Amazing how getting the small stuff may out price the big stuff getting stuff custom made like interiors and windshields or deck hardware when added up can out weigh the price for a motor or drive system

one would be hard pressed to find a donzi built as stout as "the Ultimate" the fully properly cored hull and deck will make it a solid quiet wave crusher will take a lot of power to get it moving. The other key is the ultimate has all the knowledge of the sting build so any issues that came up were addressed from the get go.

I don't know what member said it I think it was George Carter or maybe Bill " buy the best boat you can afford" which will lead you to spending less on overall ownership.

Morgan's Cloud
08-25-2013, 09:50 AM
The problem with buying a boat from outside of the US with the intentions of bringing it back 'home' is that it will have more than likely had a massive import tax paid on it when it arrived in the 'overseas port'.
Sellers factor that into their asking price so in the end the boat in question is really only marketable in the seller's country.

And don't even talk about the reverse freight.

As an example , our current import tax on boats is 33% . It was at 55% for about 15 years a while back but went back 'down'.
Freight for a 20 footer from Fernandina Beach or New Jersey is about $6000

Anyone who advertises their boat here for sale and says that they will only go down to 'x price' and if it doesn't go , will send it back to the US is delirious. They may as well just lower the price until it goes. No-one in the US is going to want to absorb our import tax or freight charges x2.

mattyboy
08-25-2013, 10:21 AM
I thought the SC boat had a marinized 390 in it? Is the 390 a rare motor? it may be period correct and an FE. It was a favorite of dearborne marine , to my knowledge HM never used it

bertsboat
08-25-2013, 11:21 AM
No duty for goods returning to USA. The value would be if the duty was paid in Sweden and returned to USA only to be sold back to Sweden. Then the new buyer in Sweden would not have to pay the duty again making the boat worth more, but that's not what we are talking about here.
so, no duty back and a 20' container would be around $3000 ( maybe less ) to Jacksonville or Savana or the east coast for that matter. There are guys that ship LTC ( less than a container) and that may save some shipping money. I know such a guy that ships from here to Sweden.
i ship from Europe once a year and that last 40' container cost me $3800 and it was goods returning to US and there was no duty.

Morgan's Cloud
08-25-2013, 11:44 AM
Bertsb ,

I was pretty sure that there wasn't an import tax INTO the US , I was reflecting on how the import tax in the foreign country reflects on the asking price when the boat goes up for sale in that country .
If the seller in that (foreign) country were to entertain the possibility of selling outside of his country he'd never recoup his tax that was paid on the boat. And that could be a bit much to swallow.

Btw , if I sent mine off island with the intention of it coming back here and I hadn't done the export paperwork properly then I'd be whacked with the 33% again !

bertsboat
08-25-2013, 03:07 PM
What island are you on? Not sure with boats but if a car is older than a certain year there is no! Or much less, duty. I would it would pertain to boats as well.
yes, if it's late model then there would be duty.
Curious to know where your at.
bert

BUIZILLA
08-25-2013, 05:44 PM
I just shipped a 22 to Finland and we used a shipper out of Riviera Beach that was enthusiastically thorough, i'd use him again in a New York minute.. he brings boats here and fro on a weekly basis..

silverghost
08-25-2013, 06:35 PM
Zedaker/Pete , who bought the SC Hornet, says the rebuilt Ford FE engine that came with this project has All of the original Holman~Moody special equipment on it.
He is not sure it is actually a 390~`He thinks it may be a 427. He is overseas now so cannot investigate this now.
Not a side-oiler however .

And don't kid yourself ~~~about 1/2, or more, of the BB Ford FE engines that go into Cobra kit car projects, and others , are taken from old boats~~~The real cars that had those engines originally have mostly all gone to that old auto graveyard in the sky. Now only the old boats that have these rare engines are left ! All these engines bring BIG Money $$$ today as these engines get harder to find every year that passes by.
There are more old boat Ford 427/390 engines now in cars as there are still left in boats~~Guys buy the old boats just to get these now rare Ford FE engines~~~and then sell or sadly scrap the old empty unpowerd boats.

Scott Pearson
08-25-2013, 07:36 PM
Well then I guess someone needs to give me an education on Ford FE engines because I sold my 28 Donzi with twin 390's for $3,000! I had this boat for sale for years and couldn't give it away...Brad...you are way out of touch of reality.

Like I said before...Then WHY has someone not bought the 1966 Donzi for 8K with the 427 Holman Moody FE sideoiler??????????????? Please explain this to me if they are so sought after? I want to hear why this hasn't been scoffed up by someone!

Some 427 and 390 FE motors on ebay!

6K buy it now!!! http://www.ebay.com/itm/FORD-427-FE-SIDE-OILER-ENGINE-/130975132283?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessorie s&hash=item1e7eb9ea7b&vxp=mtr

390 FE Buy it now for $5299! and the guy has 3 others listed for even cheaper money! http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ford-big-block-390-FE-engine-street-thumper-419-horse-434-torque-galaxie-t-bird-/251215309801?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a7d996be9&vxp=mtr

I will tell you what...I WISH that I could find someone to buy the motor out of WaLo...It has over 35K in the motor and its a FE based block. I would sell it for 10K....so why isn't all these people knocking my door in? Because these engines are not that rare and not worth the money you think....THATS WAY.

BUIZILLA
08-25-2013, 08:24 PM
market the engine on racing junk or yellowbullet...................

as soon as Obamacare kicks in next January 2014 people aren't going to be able to afford the engines must less the fuel...

by Jan 2015 you won't be able to sell anything that floats

johnnywhale
08-25-2013, 08:46 PM
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ford-1965-427-motor-holman-moody-holly-cobra-/190880814651?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessorie s&hash=item2c7162163b&vxp=mtr

This guy thinks it's a Holman Moody 427 and admits it's from a boat!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FORD-FE-427-HOLMAN-MOODY-DUAL-QUAD-MANIFOLD-AND-AIR-CLEANER-VERY-VERY-RARE-427-/110987661207?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessorie s&hash=item19d7614f97&vxp=mtr

Someone should see if that 18 has this air cleaner!

I guess there's a tushy for every seat...

Scott Pearson
08-25-2013, 09:14 PM
Johnny...Both of those ebay items have been on for about 4-6 months. And the prices for them have not changed.

The 18 does not have that air cleaner...But I have the same one on a 427 and I can tell you I wouldn't get half of that...and its nicer.

These people are dreaming!

Thanks for posting them!

silverghost
08-26-2013, 01:22 AM
There is a limit to what people will spend for a Benchseat Hornet, or any other boat project~~rare or not.
There are not that many people willing to spend large money just going-into a 45+ year old project to buy the project boat knowing that another $75-$100,000. & lot's of time & frustration would be needed to completely finish these projects.
It also takes a special sort of person who wants to take-on such a restoration project.
Most of these folks enjoy doing much of this restoration work themself as a form of distraction & hobby.
They do this sort of old boat restoration as a labor of love , and get a great deal of self-satisfaction out of actally doing the work & seeing the end results. Most of these folks interested in taking on these sorts or restorations do not have really "deep pockets".
There are Few out there who can, and are willing, to write endless blank checks to a boat restorer to have the restoration work done for them.

Those Benchseat Hornet projects already mentioned that HAVE actually sold lately were priced right in line for the current existing market conditions~~~and the project's overall condition & completeness.

The old sayings~~are work here.
Supply Vs Demand~~~&
The Market will set the eventual Selling Price

Scott's & Matty's Hornet Benchseat projects, as well as the rough Florida project boat at one time offered at $15,000+ were offered for sale several times at much higher prices than the current Benchseat Hornet project market would then, and will now support,~~~as a result these Benchseat Hornet projects did Not sell .
That rough project Florida boat may have sold later ~~but for much less money than the original $15,000+ asking price I was offered it for two years ago.
With the very same money that these sellers were asking the potential project buyers know that they can buy a totally turn-key Donzi 16,18, 22, or 2+3 Hornet, or other boat that's ready to enjoy immediately.

Matty & Scott, whome I have never met, are really Good guys ~~~there is NO doubt about that here on the Donzi forums & in the Donzi community~~~and also in My mind.

It is NOT my intention to"offend, or slam" , these two very good forum members who selflessly offer much help & advise to the Donzi Forum as well as the Donzi & performance boating community overall.

Don't get me wrong I actually like both Scott's & Matty's Benchseat Hornet projects~~~
So do many other folks~~~I AM sure about this fact !
But I, as well as the others, who really love these Benchseat Hornet boats , and actually Want such a project Benchset Hornet, do, & did, NOT like them near enough to actually Buy Them at their then, & current, asking prices~~~or they would have already been Sold a long time ago .

The Fiberglass Antique & Classic boat market has not really taken-off ~~~at least Not yet~~if it ever will ?
And Not with the really big-time "deep pockets" collectable boat buyers.
The old Mahogany woody Rare collectables like the old Antique multi cockpits, barrelbacks, Chris~Craft Cobras , Gar Wood, Hacker, Dodge Watercar etc. are also selling now at much lower prices than just only five+ years ago also.
Guys are selling these fantastic restored boats now for 1/3 to 1/2 of the money that they have already invested in them .

That's the true sad and very tough Market reality today.

Re: FE engines.
The Holman~Moody FE 427 & especially the FE 427 side-oiler engines , if not saltwater used, are still in fairly high demand and command very good selling prices.
The 390FE , which was produced, and still survive, in much larger numbers are not sought after near as much and go for much lower selling prices.
If any of the above boat engines was even thought to have been ever used in saltwater they are then a very tough sell indeed.
After~All
Nobody wants to be stuck with an expensive & worthless heavy rusty iron "boat anchor" .

Morgan's Cloud
08-26-2013, 06:36 AM
What island are you on? Not sure with boats but if a car is older than a certain year there is no! Or much less, duty. I would it would pertain to boats as well.
yes, if it's late model then there would be duty.
Curious to know where your at.
bert

Bert , more appropriate than ever 'The Isles of Devils ' .. lol (Bermuda)

Tax structures vary immensely from country to country , or in our case , from country to island but I'm pretty sure that a place like Sweden would have some pretty outrageous import taxes. As we do.

Even though we do have income tax in two different forms , but NOT by name ,our tax structure is consumption based.

Over here the age of an item has no bearing on its tax rate . A brand new boat is going to get hit with the same rate as a 30 year old one.
Same thing with cars too . And if you cringed at 33% tax on boats you don't want to know what it is on cars.
Actually , the only 'used cars' we can import are either vintage/collector cars that wont be driven or cars under one year old sold new to the original owner. If anything is on the island for more than 90 days you aint getting your tax back if you export it , no matter how hard you try .

silverghost
08-27-2013, 12:32 AM
Don't have the photos of the Hornet accessible now, they are in a stored hard drive. This photo is one of the cache pictures from before the start of the resto. The restoration so far was the completed structural work to hull and deck. Divinycell used throughout and all glass work well done. Re-chromed hardware and original v-drive, rudder in decent shape included. That's it. No interior, no motor, no electrical included etc. Don't believe the gages were looked over yet but at least part of the deal. Not gelcoated yet. Seller dropped asking price a couple of months ago from $35,000 to $22,500 and I believe it now has found a new owner, but haven't verified that. If bought at say $20k, one would have been into it at just about $30k titled back in say NY. Too many interesting rare boat projects for this kind of money available at this side of the pond in my opinion, but if one had deep pockets this is the kind of boat that an open check book could be justifiably applied towards. It will most likely have found a good home in Sweden now though, so at least it won't go to waste.

77092

If this Hornet did in fact just sell for around $22,500. , or a lower accepted offer~~~you would also have to factor in the fact that the seller had to also recoup his initial USA to Sweden high shipping costs, as well as the fairly high import duty tax to bring the USA built speedboat to Sweden .
In addition the Hull & deck restoration work already done, as well as the High replating costs, already done by the seller to the boat in Sweden must also be factored in this eventual selling price.

Similar projects sold in the USA do not have to recoup the very high shipping and import duty tax charges however ?
Subtract the High shipping charges & Very High import duty tax in Sweden~~~
What did the seller really actually in reality get for this basic project Benchseat Hornet ?
I will let everyone here do their own math calculations & speculations on that final number~~

Originally when I started this thread I just wanted to know if anyone on the forum knew more information, and prior history, on this Benchseat Hornet for sale in Sweden that was importd from USA/Florida ?
I thought I knew this boat~~ but it's hull was a different color from when i last saw photos of it in a Floride warehouse . Also I was not really sure if it was a well known Benchseat Hornet~~the actual boat I remembered from a few years back~~ `or a new & prior un-known Benchseat Hornet former Florida discovery ?

I still do not have that final answer to my original forum thread post`~~? ? ?

I never intended this thread to get into all of this debate on forum Member's Scott & Matty's Benchseat Hornet restoration project asking prices~~~

Like anything else~~
Those eventual speedboat restoration project's selling prices are based on what a Willing Buyer, and a Willing Seller, will eventually agree on to make the final sales deal.

Both these two Hornet owners, & Great forum members, know at what price they are Willing to sell their Benchseat Hornet project boats for~~`and what money they actually have in them already.
Sadly~~~ No interested Buyers have been Willing to pay their asking prices~~~I include myself in this potential later buyer group.

But~~~That's OK ~~~
It's Their boat's and Their own personal business !

I suspect In Sweden for a speedboat imported from the USA~~ if the buyer really wants it~~~ the Willing buyer would have to pay a Much Higher price ~~~understanding full well the prior shipping costs & import duty tax already paid by the seller in getting the project shipped & Imported from the USA was already factored in that final seller's price in Sweden.

This is Not the case here in the USA however.
Therefore similar condition & completness Benchseat Hornet projects should , and will most likely eventually sell for much lower numbers than that $22,500.USD , or less, in Sweden .
And again I believe the advert I saw stated that the boat came With an original Holman~Moody/Ford 427 side-oiler engine ?
Perhapps the boat came with this engine~~~but it was not actually in the boat~~~but came along with it ?
Or~~perhapps the seller was just stating that when originally built that was the engine that originally came i this boat from the Donzi Miami factory.

I really wish we could find the advert from Sweden now to clarify this engine included, or not, point~~~pehapps the old advert is still on some old web archive cashe out there somewhere ~~~

Perhapps our forum member, & Donzi friend, Lars in Sweden still has the advert on his computer hard drive ??

mattyboy
08-27-2013, 09:05 AM
If one is truly serious about getting one of these boats they need to make contacts with owners and become a student of the model. Tracking , recording, keeping pictures and such on each of the few remaining boats.


as I have said value is based on what it has , what it costs to refurb or what it costs replace or reproduce.

If we are saying that the MD and SC boats are the basis for market value in their respective states of "project in progress" than the florida "project in progress" boat is well within that market value. The MD boat as the low end with a ton of work needed and no power and other needs . The SC boat with some structural work and power but still in need of many items.

The fla boat was BO over 10K last I saw that project was purchased for 15K by the owner who had it for sale here a few years ago.

The sweden boat looks to be an early one and judging from the layout and features( hard to see in the small pic) is prior to hull 31 possibly an original daytona turbo boat. The fla boat also has some unique features not sure if they are original but it is clear this is not the fla boat that was for sale by the Donzi collector in fla.

when one looks at these project as a whole ( that one dumps money into punn intended) finding hardware getting the boat sound and seaworthy, getting it painted/gelled interiors windshields fittings gauges the list goes on and on. One needs to be committed financially as well as mentally( another punn) , it is not for everyone.

To be fair my boat is not nor was a project compared to the likes of what the owners of the ultimate , SC and MD have in front of them, or what the owner of the sting has completed. My boat was a solid existing mostly original daily driver survivor. My boat was solid and complete everything was there hardware original interior nothing missing except a little TLC. My investment in the boat is now over 20k that is just for a mechanical refurb there is still more to go interior windshield re chroming then eventually a cosmetic paint job conservatively another 15k maybe a tad more like 20k.

When an investor looks at a project like the ultimate they will see that most if not all of the hard stuff is done all the hardware is like new the interior is there brand spanking new from bilt rite windshield new and the hull has been built to the hilt. so that all has worth to a serious buyer.

So it is clear that there are only a few who are truly willing to take on such projects and all the "stuff" that goes along with them.

The car guy thing with the FE boat motors is a little overstated there may be some what of a truth here at one time but it is not really the case anymore. if there was such a crave for these motors than the boats for sale that have them would be scoffed up quickly and hunted down and cut off their lifts. From what I am told (I am not a real car/motor guy) the 427 when it is really tired doesn't lend itself well to being rebuilt. Car guys want a lil ol lady from pasadena motor from the car she drove only to mass on sunday, not a 40+ yr old motor out of a boat that has a ton of hours and abuse on it. This is one of the reasons you see many replacement motors in some boats the original FE motor was shot and couldn't be rebuilt or or parts were not available .

mattyboy
08-27-2013, 10:07 AM
Also keep in mind that these hulls are rare and their value is reflective of that. A more common 16 or 18 in the same condition as the above mentioned benchseat hornet projects would be a fraction of the cost if they would sell at all in that condition and not be scrapped.

CHACHI
08-27-2013, 10:24 AM
[QUOTE=Scott Pearson;642971
Some 427 and 390 FE motors on ebay!

6K buy it now!!! http://www.ebay.com/itm/FORD-427-FE-SIDE-OILER-ENGINE-/130975132283?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessorie s&hash=item1e7eb9ea7b&vxp=mtr



I do not think this is a side oiler. side oilers have screw in freeze plugs.

Ken

mattyboy
08-27-2013, 11:05 AM
Not sure on the freeze out plugs but a side oiler has cross bolted mains the bolts can be seen down on the block just above the oil pan. can't get the pics on my smarty phone

CHACHI
08-27-2013, 11:50 AM
Matty, all 427's were cross bolted blocks.

Ken

Scott Pearson
08-27-2013, 01:21 PM
Just an FYI. I was offered my full asking price today for my Hornet. I have to say that at this time I am not willing to part with it. I gave it some serious thought and I have spend so much time hunting the boat down and finding all the hard to find parts and done everything 100% so far that it would kill me not to finish it.


So there are serious buyers out there that know what it takes to get a boat done. This person has a bunch of old rare Donzi's and wants a Bench Seat Hornet added to his fleet.

So with that said...Now that I will not part with mine...you have one more serious buyer/collector out there looking for the next one that comes up. And he has the funds and drive to do it correctly. He also understands it will take 75-100K to do one right. He also dosnt expect to get his money back out of it even if he were to sell it. These are the people who should own these boats and do them justice.

I spent 2 1/2 years tracking my Hornet down with alot of help from friends. It was sitting outside covered with junk and old wood flooring. Yes...It a work in progress and is slow going sometimes...But its not sitting in someones back yard rotting away into the ground. I saved this boat.

Yes...Someone can spend 5-6K on a rough Hornet and really never have the funds to bring it back to life the right way. They will piece meal it together with what they can find...Half ass this and half ass that. I think that would be ashame to see that take place.

Back when I was 17 I can remember many of rare cars that where sitting in someones back yard or on the side of their garage never moving or being worked on. It was always the same old story...The owner would say..."I'm going to fix it up or Restore it back to its hay day" And guess what...10-20 years later its being hauled to the junk yard because it was rotted to the gills. Or someone stripped it of all it hardware etc. Well....same goes for some of these rare boats. Im sure some owners have good intentions but as many of us know...Some will be hauled to the dumps or rot into the ground beyond repair.

mattyboy
08-27-2013, 04:42 PM
Matty, all 427's were cross bolted blocks.

Ken

Ken
only going on what I have read there were marine and later version blocks that were not cross bolted

Pearson sell yours and buy mine boat trailer lift and all ;)

joseph m. hahnl
08-27-2013, 05:25 PM
Just an FYI. I was offered my full asking price today for my Hornet. I have to say that at this time I am not willing to part with it. I gave it some serious thought and I have spend so much time hunting the boat down and finding all the hard to find parts and done everything 100% so far that it would kill me not to finish it.


So there are serious buyers out there that know what it takes to get a boat done. This person has a bunch of old rare Donzi's and wants a Bench Seat Hornet added to his fleet.

So with that said...Now that I will not part with mine...you have one more serious buyer/collector out there looking for the next one that comes up. And he has the funds and drive to do it correctly. He also understands it will take 75-100K to do one right. He also dosnt expect to get his money back out of it even if he were to sell it. These are the people who should own these boats and do them justice.

I spent 2 1/2 years tracking my Hornet down with alot of help from friends. It was sitting outside covered with junk and old wood flooring. Yes...It a work in progress and is slow going sometimes...But its not sitting in someones back yard rotting away into the ground. I saved this boat.

Yes...Someone can spend 5-6K on a rough Hornet and really never have the funds to bring it back to life the right way. They will piece meal it together with what they can find...Half ass this and half ass that. I think that would be ashame to see that take place.

Back when I was 17 I can remember many of rare cars that where sitting in someones back yard or on the side of their garage never moving or being worked on. It was always the same old story...The owner would say..."I'm going to fix it up or Restore it back to its hay day" And guess what...10-20 years later its being hauled to the junk yard because it was rotted to the gills. Or someone stripped it of all it hardware etc. Well....same goes for some of these rare boats. Im sure some owners have good intentions but as many of us know...Some will be hauled to the dumps or rot into the ground beyond repair.

I Knew it:kingme: I was just thinking that the cost of rarity's worth, is what some one is willing to pay, to make some one want part with something sentimental or unique.

in any deal both parties need to think they got one :yes:

mike o
08-27-2013, 06:51 PM
Ken
only going on what I have read there were marine and later version blocks that were not cross bolted

Pearson sell yours and buy mine boat trailer lift and all ;) Or,,, Matt trade your's to Brad for his 29 Chris Craft triple cockpit :kingme: Marie, just think :party: Boat on Greenwood lake....:kingme:

mattyboy
08-27-2013, 07:51 PM
Mike
That'll never happen I have no want for a wooden boat. Plus Marie has her next boat picked out a 28 Azure so she can entertain 20 of her close friends. Marie lived most of her life in a log cabin so varnish is her mortal enemy. LOL

silverghost
08-27-2013, 11:56 PM
The sweden boat looks to be an early one and judging from the layout and features( hard to see in the small pic) is prior to hull 31 possibly an original daytona turbo boat. The fla boat also has some unique features not sure if they are original but it is clear this is not the fla boat that was for sale by the Donzi collector in fla. .

Thank's for your info. Matty~~
I think you should keep your Benchseat Hornet "Driver" and enjoy it like you are doing now this season !
Heck~~~ You can always improve it's cosmetics, & performance, ~~~a little bit at a time while still enjoying using it yourself .

Re: Hornet in Sweden~
So if the Hornet in Sweden was Not the Florida collector's warehouse boat that was re-painted blue~~~and shipped to Sweden~~
Can I also assume that this boat was not already very well known , and already being tracked by the Donzi Benchseat Hornet collector community ?

Does Anyone know anything at all about it's past history ~~~or perhapps about it's last USA owner ?
Just curious how this one seemed to slip-out under the collector's radar ? ? ?

I suspect there are still many more of these Benchseat Hornets still lurking out there long since hidden away somewhere~~~waiting to be re-discovered .
At least that is my hope~~~

The odds, I believe, are in favor of this in my opinion given the original production of approx. some 45-50 Bench Seat Hornets once built.
There are actually still quite a few out of those numbers originally produced that still today remain un-accounted for.

Re: Baby 14 survivors~~
By comparison let's look at the much much much rarer existing Donzi Baby 14 survivor numbers. (approx: 13-15 originally built)
If you look at the total existing survivor numbers of the Donzi"Baby 14's/Cigarette Baby~~~ Almost ALL those Baby hulls originally ever built (approx: 13-15 produced) have been found still existing alive today~~~ and only one , I believe, according to the old DonziRacer Baby 14 records list, posted in a Baby 14 thread on this website here, was actually positively confirmed to have been actually destroyed ?

WoW ! !!
What a great survivor rate for such a rare little boat produced in such very low original production numbers.

Note: Sadly I was the person who confirmed that Ocean City NJ Baby 14 as having been crushed only a few years ago . That Baby's owner passed-away and his home & garage ,still containing his old hidden-away Baby 14, was crushed by a bulldozer ,demolished, and trucked-away in a dumpster to the landfill, The old house's much more valuable waterfront lot was later re-developed into a new two Million $$$+ "Mini-Mansion" .
The Real Estate developer couldn't have cared less about that hidden-away Donzi Baby 14 !
I was Not interested in this boat myself~~~
But~ I did try my best to save it for a fellow Donzi forum member here with sadly~~~ No success !

CHACHI
08-28-2013, 05:42 AM
Ken
only going on what I have read there were marine and later version blocks that were not cross bolted

Pearson sell yours and buy mine boat trailer lift and all ;)

Matty, not doubting you, but I gotta start looking now.

I thought they were all cross bolted.

Ken

Scott Pearson
08-28-2013, 05:42 AM
The Hornet in Sweden is the boat from Florida. Where did it say it wasnt. I have a ton of pictures of the boat. It was owned by David Witt and is now owned by Thomas Rupart. This is one and the same boat...Did I miss something here???

mattyboy
08-28-2013, 06:07 AM
Ken
I had never heard the plug thing so it is all good more info

I read last night til my head hurt. Not sure I know now casting numbers they used the same block but the oil passages were not drilled the plugs were screws but they did use press in too. 4 bolts on the motor mounts?????one thing I did find is the motors that did not meet specs for ford were sent out to the marine and industrial market.

silverghost
08-28-2013, 06:41 AM
The Hornet in Sweden is the boat from Florida. Where did it say it wasnt. I have a ton of pictures of the boat. It was owned by David Witt and is now owned by Thomas Rupart. This is one and the same boat...Did I miss something here???

Well~~~If it was once David Witt's Florida Hornet I tried to deal with his agent (Dauley ?) who offered me the boat for the "Best Offer OVER $15,000. a number of years back. He would not send me ANY digital photos and told me to make a sight unseen offer if I was interested~~~or make an appointment to come to Florida myself to inspect it . What a very poor sales agent ! This interaction with this sales agent (Dauley?)frustrated the devil out of me~~~and I soon gave up !
There is a thread here , or on the other .org site , with our back & forth posts about this very Benchseat Hornet sale issue.
He DID tell me at that time the the boat came with a Ford 427 engine that was now removed~~~but still came along WITH this Florida Hornet project.
This would tend to support what I saw in the advert from the seller in Sweden saying that the boat was being sold WITH the original Holman~Moody Ford 427 engine~~~perhapps still not actually INSTALLED in the boat ? But comming along with the boat now in Sweden.

Scott Pearson
08-28-2013, 06:51 AM
Brad,
David Witts boat went to Sweden back in 2003 right after I got the Ultimate. Thomas Rupert originaly had a deal with buying the Untimate and never followed up. I got the boat a week later.

Unless David Witt had two Hornets I think you have something messed up or was told the wrong information.

mattyboy
08-28-2013, 06:54 AM
Scott
I Think the confusion is the term fla boat, it is being used to describe the boat that was for sale by Dualley back a few years ago. not the swedish boat that we knew left for sweden many many years back from fla in like 2003




it pays to keep in mind that comparing survivor rates of the 14 and benchseat is like comparing apples to beefsteak tomatoes. the benchseat hornets are not left in many numbers there may be one barn find somewhere but their size and construction leads to finding them in rough shape some have been scrapped not to mention the use and abuse they took when they were out on the water. they would be hard to store almost 20 feet long and 8 feet wide or expensive to pay for covered storage. the construction with the coring and lack of seat support lead to a quick death to these boats. I am sure somewhere along the line someone thought to shrink wrap and tent it using the seat as support only to find it speed up the seat caving in. The 14 will fit in small garages or storage sheds or under a deck and when re-sto'ing or looking at a project it will look like not that of an undertaking. similar to the ob baby they seem to survive in greater numbers than other classics.

one may hold out hope to get one or one may decide to jump in seems they come up for sale about every 7 yrs or so . with the last exhange of 3 boats that means one might pop up in 2020

Scott Pearson
08-28-2013, 06:55 AM
David Witts Hornet.

mike o
08-28-2013, 07:03 AM
Matty, not doubting you, but I gotta start looking now.

I thought they were all cross bolted.

KenMy friend down the street
http://actoncobra.com/index.php?main_page=about_us&zenid=e24377a1ee0546039832394bc1cdf9c7 restores Corbra's. Check out Cobracars.com this crowd know it all about 427 side oiler's. Nick has a bunch of them, cause he use to borrow my truck to go get Em.........:kingme:

Scott Pearson
08-28-2013, 07:04 AM
More

mattyboy
08-28-2013, 07:15 AM
the dualley boat came with a replacement chevy 427 and was right hand helm

mattyboy
08-28-2013, 07:37 AM
Well~~~If it was once David Witt's Florida Hornet I tried to deal with his agent (Dauley ?) who offered me the boat for the "Best Offer OVER $15,000. a number of years back. He would not send me ANY digital photos and told me to make a sight unseen offer if I was interested~~~or make an appointment to come to Florida myself to inspect it . What a very poor sales agent ! This interaction with this sales agent (Dauley?)frustrated the devil out of me~~~and I soon gave up !
There is a thread here , or on the other .org site , with our back & forth posts about this very Benchseat Hornet sale issue.
He DID tell me at that time the the boat came with a Ford 427 engine that was now removed~~~but still came along WITH this Florida Hornet project.
This would tend to support what I saw in the advert from the seller in Sweden saying that the boat was being sold WITH the original Holman~Moody Ford 427 engine~~~perhapps still not actually INSTALLED in the boat ? But comming along with the boat now in Sweden.

you were told the seller turned down more than you were willing to pay~~~case closed~~~~, also looks as if you knew about Mario's boat well before it eventually sold, you let that one slip thru your cash in hands

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?63102-bench-seat-hornet/page2&highlight=bench+seat+hornet

silverghost
08-28-2013, 08:02 AM
Mario offered his rough project to me for more than twice what he later offered it again for this year to Bert .
At the time i was offered that MD Hornet Mario would not budge off his firm price.
Because of all the fiberglass grinding & poor patch work done on it in the past ~~~and for his very high asking price in my estimation based on it's very poor condition I decided to pass on it!
I have no regrets~~~
And I am glad Bert got that project Hornet and it is well on his way to it's final completion.

I NEVER did get ANY digital photos of that other Florida Hornet project from Dauley.
I got frustrated by his un-professional sales attitude, total lack of information, & photos, and passed on that Hornet also.

bertsboat
08-28-2013, 10:21 AM
The yellow Hornet and the Red Baby together. Baby heading to the Buffalo NY show next week.
To see progress of Hornet restoration go to www.ynotyachts.com
The Benchseat is a collaboration between myself and my friends the Ledonne Family, Aaron, Ben, Dan and Daddy Ken, of Pittsburgh. It will be completed as a V drive like it was from the factory. We expect it will be done in a few months to enjoy on the St Johns river this winter and next summer on the St Laurence in Clayton NY. Very excited to compare the Baby to the Hornet. The Baby feels like its going 60 and the Hornet will actually go 60.


Thank's for your info. Matty~~
I think you should keep your Benchseat Hornet "Driver" and enjoy it like you are doing now this season !
Heck~~~ You can always improve it's cosmetics, & performance, ~~~a little bit at a time while still enjoying using it yourself .

Re: Hornet in Sweden~
So if the Hornet in Sweden was Not the Florida collector's warehouse boat that was re-painted blue~~~and shipped to Sweden~~
Can I also assume that this boat was not already very well known , and already being tracked by the Donzi Benchseat Hornet collector community ?

Does Anyone know anything at all about it's past history ~~~or perhapps about it's last USA owner ?
Just curious how this one seemed to slip-out under the collector's radar ? ? ?

I suspect there are still many more of these Benchseat Hornets still lurking out there long since hidden away somewhere~~~waiting to be re-discovered .
At least that is my hope~~~

The odds, I believe, are in favor of this in my opinion given the original production of approx. some 45-50 Bench Seat Hornets once built.
There are actually still quite a few out of those numbers originally produced that still today remain un-accounted for.

Re: Baby 14 survivors~~
By comparison let's look at the much much much rarer existing Donzi Baby 14 survivor numbers. (approx: 13-15 originally built)
If you look at the total existing survivor numbers of the Donzi"Baby 14's/Cigarette Baby~~~ Almost ALL those Baby hulls originally ever built (approx: 13-15 produced) have been found still existing alive today~~~ and only one , I believe, according to the old DonziRacer Baby 14 records list, posted in a Baby 14 thread on this website here, was actually positively confirmed to have been actually destroyed ?

WoW ! !!
What a great survivor rate for such a rare little boat produced in such very low original production numbers.

Note: Sadly I was the person who confirmed that Ocean City NJ Baby 14 as having been crushed only a few years ago . That Baby's owner passed-away and his home & garage ,still containing his old hidden-away Baby 14, was crushed by a bulldozer ,demolished, and trucked-away in a dumpster to the landfill, The old house's much more valuable waterfront lot was later re-developed into a new two Million $$$+ "Mini-Mansion" .
The Real Estate developer couldn't have cared less about that hidden-away Donzi Baby 14 !
I was Not interested in this boat myself~~~
But~ I did try my best to save it for a fellow Donzi forum member here with sadly~~~ No success !

BUIZILLA
08-28-2013, 11:51 AM
the Hornet that Dauley was trying to push was in Fort Myers, that owner had several Donzi boats that were perpetually shown on here as well, but chose Dauley to market them for his bump.... it had a BB Chevy and was RHD if my memory is correct

Greg Guimond
08-28-2013, 12:03 PM
My experience with 95% of the people selling a boat (professional or direct owner) is that 1/3 of them have no idea what they are really selling, 1/3 of them are generally lethargic in supplying information including clear photos, and the remaining 1/3 don't know how to properly communicate via email with coherent written responses that answer the questions being asked of them.

The 5% that are not a part of that group are a pleasure to do business with and tend to get top dollar.

silverghost
08-28-2013, 05:11 PM
Bert~~
Fantastic pair of very cool and unique Donzi speedboats you have there !
It's great to see that you been able to save not one, but Two, very rare & historic early Donzi speedboats.

What sort of engine horsepower will you be putting in your V-drive Hornet Project ?

mattyboy
08-28-2013, 07:31 PM
Bert
coming along nicely!!!!!!!! git eerrrrrr done so they hit the water together. the benchseats will be a favorite at the shows.

It is obvious that when someone wants one of these they go out and get one and is ready to take on whatever needs to be done to return them to their glory, and some drop back and~~~ pass.

bertsboat
08-28-2013, 08:53 PM
Here are a few more.7715077151

silverghost
08-28-2013, 08:57 PM
It is obvious that when someone wants one of these they go out and get one and is ready to take on whatever needs to be done to return them to their glory, and some drop back and~~~ pass.

Bert was able to buy this project at a fair market price.
I, and others , were offered this very same rough project for more than twice what he finally paid.
EVERYONE passed on this project at that higher price !

Still others who have owned these sorts of very rough projects, and have owned them for 10 to 30 years or more, continue to offer them on the market, and on ebay, at greatly inflated & unrealistic prices than the current existing boat restoration project market will support.
And then they wonder WHY their over-priced project is not selling ? ? ?
How many times have we all seen these very same project boats listed for sale over and over again~~~without ever selling ? ? ?
These same project sellers are looking for a deep pockets sucker to come along with more money than brains.
That sort of buyer almost never appear to actually Buy their rough project.
In reality these project sellers are not fooling anyone out there that may be looking for such a project . They are only really fooling themselves in the end .

I have owned over a dozen mahogany Antique boat projects over the past 30 years. I have always paid Fair market prices for these various projects~~~When I decide to move-on and eventually sell them~~they sell very quickly at again very fair market restored boat prices.
I have my 1929 Chris~Craft tripple cockpit project underway now~~~as well as my very unique & very cool Donzi Benchseat 18 Gentleman's Racer/Speedster custom project now underway.
I am not new to buying & selling restored boats, & boat projects.
I will buy a project I may be interested in if it is offered at a fair market price~~~but I refuse to pay crazy & unrealistic over-inflated prices~~~I also avoid arrogant & un-professional sellers who are unwilling to give you proper information to simple to answer questions asked ,& provide good photos of the project they are trying to sell. I find that such sellers are always trying to hide some facts from the potential buyer by using such un-professional sales tactics.

mario
08-29-2013, 08:19 AM
Bert hornet Looks great I have the drive shaft for the boat if you need it I can ups it to ya
brad there is a old saying put up or shut up:chillpill:

mattyboy
08-29-2013, 08:50 AM
My experience with 95% of the people selling a boat (professional or direct owner) is that 1/3 of them have no idea what they are really selling, 1/3 of them are generally lethargic in supplying information including clear photos, and the remaining 1/3 don't know how to properly communicate via email with coherent written responses that answer the questions being asked of them.

The 5% that are not a part of that group are a pleasure to do business with and tend to get top dollar.

Greg,
very true but that is also true of buyers. You have the I well may be very interested in your boat guys who are basically tire kickers and have no real intent on buying your boat or any boat for that matter. then you have the well it is old and common so I'll give you 1/2 to 1/4 of your asking price. Both of which deserve no time or effort from the seller.

Then there is the truly engaged SERIOUS buyer , the guy that calls twice a day ,makes arrangements to have the boat eyed down, knows what they want knows what to look for.They take the ball and run with it no passing here.

Let's face it the sell buy thingy is an adversarial interaction the seller wants high the buyer wants low. How the two interact and communicate means a lot in the whole transaction. This is not bing bang boom thing either it may take some time months maybe even years. this was the case with my benchseat I went for a ride to assist a forum member look at it. We opened a channel of communication with the owner inspected the boat then started price talks.. a deal couldn't be worked out no biggy no verbal insults a handshake and a keep me in loop and updated if things change and if I can be of help with anything let me know. That intial interaction made a good foundation for the eventual sale transaction. The seller is like hey guys you showed interest in the boat we were off on price things have changed might you be interested in it now at this price?? That never would have happened if we left saying your nutz you are way over what we think the market value is.

What we know is true is these boats are more valuable in like/like condition than more common classics that is a fact

what is also true is the journey to own one of these boats is a long one, years and a ton of money and even with people offering to pay the asking price the seller reflects and says I have a lot of time and effort into it , it was an expensive road and very hard to get in the door, can I really let it go after all of that??? So regardless of what an arm chair quaterback thinks fair market value is it takes a alot more to unhitch one emotionally from it's owner.

Like i said before these things come up for sale all the time NOT.


Bert
not really my cup of tea, but the Fino does have great timeless lines.

Greg Guimond
08-29-2013, 02:12 PM
You are 100% correct Matty. The sword can certainly cut both ways :)

lars
08-30-2013, 04:46 AM
Thomas Rönnberg, owner of Rupert Marine in Sweden( http://www.rupertmarine.com/en/index.asp), was the fellow that bought the Hornet 10 years ago. He also sold his 1970 Donzi 21 GT(#24), at the same time he sold the Hornet. Both boats were structually restored to a very high standard. He gelcoated the bottoms, but gave potential buyers the option to have him complete the boats for them, do some of the finishing jobs or sell them as they were. He figured that most buyers would want to choose their own favorite gelcoat or paint color etc.
He bought the 1966 427 side oiler from a friend of Allan 'Brownie' Brown back around 2005. The engine is as perfect as they get, original Holman Moody's owner's manual, oil cooler, plenty of documentation on the engine etc. He seems to have sold 427 for $25,000 and the 21 GT for $15,000. Most people back home find that to be a very good deal on a perfect(as new) 427 Holman Moody Marine side oiler and I would say the boats sold for fair money too because the quality of the restorations. Thomas was originally doing these boats for himself and his yard should be high-tech enough to handle pretty much anything. His yard is doing really well, so he didn't need the money.

P.S. Thank You Scott for posting the photos of the Hornet. My external hard drive is packed away at another location at the moment. D.S.

77172

silverghost
08-30-2013, 10:32 AM
Thank's Lars~~~

Thank's for clearing up the confusion about the 427 Side Oiler, and the Hornet that just sold in Sweden.
I Thought that there was some connection with the Ford 427 FE side oiler and that Hornet in Sweden. I did not know however that the engine was sold as a seperate deal from the Hornet to someone else for $25,000. ?

As you can see~~~If someone was willing to pay $25,000. for a very clean Ford Holman~Moody 427 FE Marine side oiler in Sweden~~~Then you can all see why I consider these engines to be Still very much in high demand.

As with everying else I said in this thread here~~~Condition of a collectable engine, boat, or car always dictates the item's eventual selling prices~~~
In collecting Antique & Classic boats, cars, and rare engines~~~

Condition IS everything.
And~~
Condition brings in the Big $$$ Bucks !

Do you folks all Still think "I am out of touch with Reality" as far as the market value of a good clean Holman~Moody Marine Ford FE 427 side oiler ? ? ?

Conquistador_del_mar
08-30-2013, 11:24 AM
You have the I well may be very interested in your boat guys who are basically tire kickers and have no real intent on buying your boat or any boat for that matter

When I used to buy and sell quite a few boats, we started calling them prop knockers to be the marine version of the automotive tire kickers. My worst experience was when the guy showed up with his girlfriend and a basket of food and a cooler of beer for a "test ride". :bonk:

silverghost
08-30-2013, 11:28 AM
These engines, if the water jackets are not rusted-out thin, can usually be successfully rebuilt as to new condition.
All the engine internals are still obtainable new.
Oversize pistons, bearings, timing gears & chains, valves, piston rods, rings, cams, oil pumps, etc.
Crankshafts can be ground undersize for oversize bearings.
Rebuilding cylinder heads are no problem.

Since the block is a thinwall casting with a very large cylinder bore diameter you must be sure that the block still has enough cylinder wall "meat" thickness to stand a big oversize re-bore if the block has extreme top cylinder wear taper.
Cylinder repair sleeve use is usually also possible in most cases possible.

Marine high performance aluminum or iron exhaust manifolds are the real problem issue.

Scott Pearson
08-30-2013, 06:19 PM
If 427 FE Holam Moody Sideoilers are so sought after then why hasnt anyone bought this one in over 4 months?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ford-1965-427-motor-holman-moody-holly-cobra-/190880814651?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessorie s&hash=item2c7162163b&vxp=mtr

Here is one...It is all NOS and is all Holman Moody its a 427 Sideoiler tunnel port and makes 680HP on the dyno. This motor is perfect...Have the correct valve cover also...So what is it worth???? Trust me....Not $25,000.

mattyboy
08-31-2013, 01:36 PM
Bill

prop knocker love it!!!


YES

condition is everything so a properly re-done structurely stronger un painted/ gelled un powered benchseat hornet is market value 22K or higher as evidenced by the sale in sweden and the offer on the ultimate. boats in lesser condition are 10-15k less and will need work to get to the level of the ultimate or the swedish benchseat. even though some may come with power

the swedish 427 had some unique provenance coming from a well known personality of thunder boat row and I would imagine being perfect and new was a very rare commodity of american muscle in sweden. does this sale dictate market value and demand for the 427 marine motor NO! the remaining boats that have this power plant in an array of conditions are NOT SELLING to boat guys or to car guys to anyone for that matter. I have seen basic covico wheels with provenance of well known thunderboat row personality sell for 20 times it's value does that indicate a fair market value for covico wheels??? NO!

I have seen a true 289 Hi Po sent to HM to be restored to original spec's is it worth more than a 289 original survivor hell yes with all the paperwork from HM but does that indicate a market value for all 289 motors NO.

so judging by what is out there a mostly original solid surviving benchseat is in the 27-34k range based on what it would take to un hitch them from their current owners.
the project boats will take at least that much to purchase them and even more to get them running and finished so that leads us to the finished project with new power restored to awesome condition which are in the 50+K range. so the reality in all of this is if you really want one it is going to cost you at least 27k to get one running and if you want a restored to better than new you can double or triple that.

so in the big picture on this in total investment when all is said and done and looking back at purchase price of the initial project what is the big deal about a couple of thousand dollars in asking price?? the chance to get one may NEVER present itself again I would imagine someone serious about getting one would look back and regret not pulling the trigger.