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View Full Version : 911's and Outboards...........



gcarter
05-22-2013, 11:30 AM
The current issue of Road & Track magazine is almost entirely dedicated to 50 years of Porsche 911 history and production. As is brought out in all the articles, 911's can be evil handling beasts, while having gotten better, the heart, character, and nature hasn't changed all that much.
Now, what do 911's and outboards have in common?
Is there any handling similarities between the two?

biggiefl
05-22-2013, 01:01 PM
Don't know about handling but they have both gotten more complicated, heavier, and expensive while still retaining their original shape.

woobs
05-22-2013, 02:52 PM
76134
I haven't driven many outboards...but, this was my 1972 911S.

I would say that to drive an older 911 it takes a different skill set than other types of cars. Of course, they're all evil when they get away from you...and you have to pay attention when pushing one of these around a track (like Mosport pictured) because they don't forgive mistakes.

I have raced both Front drivers and conventional rear drive cars but nothing has the feeling of "getting it right" like in an old 911.

FWIW I don't think the shape looks at all like the current 911 (not since the 90's)...imho, the Audi TT seems more of the same breed in the looks department.

BUIZILLA
05-22-2013, 03:55 PM
a true Porsche-a-phile will say the original 911 died with the 964...

Porsche never made a light and smoky 2 stroke so i'm not sure how that would compare equally

gcarter
05-22-2013, 04:55 PM
OK, the similarity is, both have their engines hanging off the extreme aft end of the vehicles.
In the case of the 911, a very high polar moment of inertia makes handling interesting.....
I have no outboard experience, but do outboards (particularly bracket mounted outboards) have any similar characteristics?

joseph m. hahnl
05-22-2013, 05:33 PM
OK, the similarity is, both have their engines hanging off the extreme aft end of the vehicles.
In the case of the 911, a very high polar moment of inertia makes handling interesting.....
I have no outboard experience, but do outboards (particularly bracket mounted outboards) have any similar characteristics?outboards when over trimmed get radically loose and cavitate. They are also more apt to stand up out of the water. But when set at normal parameters they perform well . pppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp pppppppppppppppppppppppppppphttp://iansadler.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/08-live-and-let-die-boat-jump.jpegppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp pppphttp://farm9.staticflickr.com/8164/7201823920_6fc39fc08c_z.jpgppppppppppppppppppppppp pppppppppppppppppphttp://www.boatracingfacts.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=21487&stc=1&d=1200469895

superhatz
05-22-2013, 06:16 PM
a true Porsche-a-phile will say the original 911 died with the 964...

Porsche never made a light and smoky 2 stroke so i'm not sure how that would compare equally

Love it....an article I wrote for Total 911.

http://www.total911.com/news/the-real-911/

Also Facebook page for you old 911 fans...my shop:

https://www.facebook.com/flatsixinc

ACE51
05-22-2013, 07:51 PM
911 are hard to drive because the ones most people drive are fat with too much equipment and soft suspension (street cars). I drove a Ariel Atom for two seasons and it was not very hard to drive with your right foot (it was about a 35/65 distribution), I think that by the time you loose it in a 911 there is too much inertia with all the weight and loose suspension (for street cars driven on the track) and its too late to save it.

But they look so good!

Here is my favorite 911 video, before this whole "drifting" crap came out, its even recorded on VHS!:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6Thomd4BQg


Here is a video of me in the Atom:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=059zxB_GDLc

gcarter
05-23-2013, 09:23 AM
I've never driven a Porsche of any type. I've only ridden in two, a 914, and a 928, the last of which was in about 1981. I've always been fascinated by them....I got a plastic model of a 356 when I was about ten in 1954. I'd never even heard of a Por-shay, much less ever seen one......at that time, there weren't even any Bugs on the road in Houston. These things were REALLY foreign.
In about '76 or so, I lived in an apartment complex called "The Treetops" near the Memorial part of Houston (If you saw them, you'd understand the name). Anyway, a black 911 Turbo was frequently parked on the curb at the complex. I asked around and found out Billy Gibbons lived there and owned the car. Of course we never met.....I don't think we were even awake at the same times of the day! Musicians!
I've often thought about owning a Porsche, but not very much. I knew they rusted when you looked at them. They smelled like the engine inside the car, and were pretty quirky.
I've not ruled out owning one, so, I thought I'd ask.

JayZ
05-23-2013, 09:42 AM
Evil Handling Beasts! ...love it!

As far as the 911 being like similar to an outboard driven boat --- well You guys keep saying that the Classic 22 is a "drivers boat" that is exactly how a Porsche 911 is described. It is very much a drivers car. Probably just like Woobs, my old '74 911 with it's meager 210 RWHP and light weight has seen some track time and definitey surprised some big Iron on the track (street sometimes too but we're not supposed to talk about things like that)

7615176152

biggiefl
05-23-2013, 10:41 AM
I have driven outboard boats all my life and never thought of any that drove quirky compared to an I/O. Never owned a bracketed boat though but have been on many. My lil 13' Whaler has a 240lb Suzuki 40hp 4 stroke on the back which is equiv. to running twin 1980's 35's in weight and she handles just fine. I keep 40lbs of lead in the front hatch so it sits more level at rest but underway it's all good. I have argued with many over the years about transom weight, some still think the lighter the better but personally I think the heavier the smoother the ride. I have owned 8 or 9 17' Whalers and the more weight aft the less it bangs in chop.

As far as Porshes go I did own a 928. What a wonderfull feat of engineering. Most say it was not a real Porsche but then why was it made for almost 2 decades, was usually the fasest behind a turbo and cost the most? If you ever get a chance to listen to a 928's exhaust, you will want one or want to put one in your boat. The best sounding V8 ever. Friend has a 01' Turbo and a 914. The 914 although basically a VW engine at like 71hp is a friggin hoot to drive. Once you get it above 3500rpm it is all Porsche and handles like a Go-Kart. Blows away my MG.

gcarter
05-23-2013, 11:09 AM
Nick, your comment about the forward ballast in your outboard is interesting.
Apparently, Porsche did the same thing to the early 911's to attempt to make them drivable, by installing 50 lb of iron weight inside the front bumper. Do contemporary Porshes still have the ballast?

JayZ
05-23-2013, 11:28 AM
George, I have never seen 50lb of iron ballast up there but the engineers at porsche did put the battery(s) up in the very front of the car to try to help balance the car.

The truth is once you learn how to drive a 911 one uses the weight in the back to his advantage. They are really fun cars to drive fast.

superhatz
05-23-2013, 11:54 AM
Jay...great looking Carrera...worth a ton-o-money now...:/

Jay's right, properly set up and driven, 911s are very fast...plenty of race and rally wins over the years to prove it...:)

Just Say N20
05-23-2013, 12:57 PM
I've often thought about owning a Porsche, but not very much. I knew they rusted when you looked at them. They smelled like the engine inside the car, and were pretty quirky.



Absolutely classic!:biggrin:

JayZ
06-12-2013, 09:36 AM
This about sums it up.

gcarter
06-12-2013, 12:10 PM
This about sums it up.


I would probably edit it to say "Those who could drive ANYTHING ,and the rest"!

Ghost
06-12-2013, 07:28 PM
Had a Boxster for about 6 years. Best made car I've ever owned, by FAR. A superb machine. Drove extremely well, next to nothing ever went wrong with it. No other car I've known came close in quality control.

Yes, that was at least slightly off-topic. :)

Greg Guimond
06-12-2013, 09:33 PM
OK, the similarity is, both have their engines hanging off the extreme aft end of the vehicles. In the case of the 911, a very high polar moment of inertia makes handling interesting.....I have no outboard experience, but do outboards (particularly bracket mounted outboards) have any similar characteristics?

I had a 911 Turbo ('97 993) and have had several OB's including the 16 Baby. The ill handling of the 911 is a thing of the past, my 400hp Turbo was one of the most versatile high performance vehicles I have owned. Where else can you get seating for 4, comfort in snow, darn good gas mileage and barn burning performance. On the outboard, how much horsepower does it take for an I/O 22 Classic to run 102mph? You can do it with a Tuff 21 with a stock 300XS and like the later 911's it handles like a dream. My 16 Baby with 12" setback never had any problems until the steering blew and threw me out of the boat at 78. It was handling very well all season until that unfortunate event and yes it hurt. Ideal setback on the 16 is more like 6" which we used with 300hp to break 80 light on fuel.

gcarter
09-22-2013, 10:23 AM
Here's a video of an overly optimistic Porsche race car driver.......it's pretty obvious this was the drivers fault!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hStcyDj830Q

Just Say N20
09-22-2013, 12:32 PM
George, it seems more likely to me that the throttle jammed wide open. I don't see a driver who was able to negotiate the previous corner in a tail happy 911, driving wide open so far as to then need to lock up the wheels like that.

I don't see the same driver making the first tun in the video, and then catastrophically blowing the next one. Something had to fail in the car, or maybe the driver had a heart attack or something.

gcarter
09-22-2013, 12:49 PM
Bill, you may very well be correct.
If so, I often find it amazing that folks will try to overpower the engine w/the brakes rather than kill the ignition! That'll work every time.

Ed Donnelly
09-22-2013, 03:17 PM
I see NOBODY ran to their rescue. They were too busy filming it..Ed

CHACHI
09-23-2013, 05:47 AM
He never attempted to make the turn.

Ken

BUIZILLA
09-23-2013, 06:47 AM
once he locked up the brakes, it doesn't matter which way the wheel is turned..

it's going to go straight

which it did :nilly:

Conquistador_del_mar
09-23-2013, 10:47 AM
I see NOBODY ran to their rescue. They were too busy filming it..Ed

That really bothered me too, Ed.

Phil S
09-24-2013, 09:07 PM
...but I like traction. I have had the pleasure of driving an earlier 911 turbo, and it's second & third gears (turbo-spooled up) were a handful to say the least.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuzgNszoOLI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuzgNszoOLI)

Some fancy footwork here...

Phil S.

CHACHI
09-25-2013, 06:18 AM
...but I like traction. I have had the pleasure of driving an earlier 911 turbo, and it's second & third gears (turbo-spooled up) were a handful to say the least.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuzgNszoOLI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuzgNszoOLI)

Some fancy footwork here...

Phil S.

Not to mention an insurance company's nightmare.

How much closer can the spectators get to the road when the rally cars are running.

I bought my bride a new A4 in the 90's and the best 1500 dollars I spent was for the Quattro option.

Ken

woobs
09-25-2013, 07:50 AM
...but I like traction.
I would say the 911 has plenty of traction....with all that weight hanging behind the rear wheels it would be hard not to have it. The 911 requires a different driving style as does an AWD and even a FWD car. In the right hands you can make the 911 dance and this is why it has been so succesful in racing. Planning for big turbo boost (with all the lag that comes with it ) is another skill all to itself. I still stick to normally aspirated 911s as it requires all the attention I can give it when at speed on the track....and because I'm not Hurley Haywood :)

BUIZILLA
09-25-2013, 09:03 AM
there are two drivers in my mind worthy of the rwd 911 officianado helmets

Hurley Haywood and Danny Ongais

everyone else was trying to imitate them

if you ever watched them together on the same racetrack dueling each other, it was pure poetry in motion

woobs
09-25-2013, 01:39 PM
there are two drivers in my mind worthy of the rwd 911 officianado helmets

Hurley Haywood and Danny Ongais

everyone else was trying to imitate them

if you ever watched them together on the same racetrack dueling each other, it was pure poetry in motion
For me it's Hurley Haywood and Peter Gregg!
Although, I did share the track a few times with Ludwig Heimrath Sr. (factory driver) and even in his "twilight" he could still drive.... he couldn't see but, he could still drive!

JimG
09-25-2013, 02:29 PM
All of those guys were Superman! I loved watching Ongais... when he could keep his car together, he was unstoppable!