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Greg Guimond
05-19-2013, 03:11 PM
Does this build up have the "good stuff" and is 550 ponies about right?

454cid 550hp Dart Big M Iron block, 9 1/2 to 1 compression, Bravo drive w/shower
Crane hyd roller Cam w/roller lifters & gold roller rockers, Hardin SS sea pump
Manley SS intake valves & Inconel exhaust valves -10hrs on engine fresh water only
Imco exhaust manifolds with SS risers, Cyclone SS mufflers tips, Halon fire system
Holly 830 carb, MSD ign system w/rev limiter & distrib, dual batteries w/switch

Pismo
05-19-2013, 04:53 PM
Cam specs? Heads?

gcarter
05-19-2013, 06:31 PM
That may be a little high for a 454 running at the engine speeds we need.

Donzi_Dude
05-20-2013, 03:28 PM
the first one to make 550HP with a 454 we will call "Hot Sauce".

:biggrin:

Pat McPherson
05-22-2013, 07:49 PM
I know a couple of guys that have built marine 454s that dyno'd just over 500 @ 5600. Need to build a 454 to spin over 6000rpm or have a blower on top to get 550.

Donzi_Dude
05-23-2013, 07:08 AM
i thinks it possible. you are just having to be "that guy" to do it.

;)

pipnit
05-23-2013, 08:35 AM
550 w a 454 is easy. Go buy some good heads.

Donzi_Dude
05-23-2013, 10:23 AM
550 w a 454 is easy. Go buy some good heads.


lmao!

everybody is doing it. everything is easy on the internet. just type, its so, because i say so, bam!

how many times you done it? who's done it? easy, ya!

Ed Donnelly
05-23-2013, 11:41 AM
It might be hard to build one in the the back hills
of Nirvana, but, in the big city with a good engine
builder, its not that hard. Cam, compression, heads,
and manifold.. Try it you'll like it ..Ed

pipnit
05-23-2013, 12:24 PM
lmao!

everybody is doing it. everything is easy on the internet. just type, its so, because i say so, bam!

how many times you done it? who's done it? easy, ya!


You make is sound like it's impossible or that I'm hiding behind a screen or keyboard. Neither of this is the case.
It's not hard at all to do, just takes a little coin and some smart thinking.
I have a '76 2+3 with a big old honking TRS drive (re: inefficient) with a small block that runs 75mph on a gps on 87 octane. She runs like a top, no detonation, great response and a lot of fun!

To the original poster, you might want to call Bob Madera at Marine Kinetics. He'll give you good advice and could design a 454 which will get you to 550hp easily.

Donzi_Dude
05-23-2013, 03:31 PM
You make is sound like it's impossible or that I'm hiding behind a screen or keyboard. Neither of this is the case.
It's not hard at all to do, just takes a little coin and some smart thinking.
I have a '76 2+3 with a big old honking TRS drive (re: inefficient) with a small block that runs 75mph on a gps on 87 octane. She runs like a top, no detonation, great response and a lot of fun!

To the original poster, you might want to call Bob Madera at Marine Kinetics. He'll give you good advice and could design a 454 which will get you to 550hp easily.


no, i just think you know little to nothing about making horsepower and yet still insist it an easy feat yet offer not one example.

your advice, call a guru.

/pass

pipnit
05-23-2013, 03:54 PM
Yeah, damn straight I'd call a Guru. I never claimed to be an engine builder did I? My point is 550 out of a 454 isn't that difficult. I have seen MANY 454's with that much power and a lot more. If you have the coin, have someone build it for you.

Maybe because you couldn't do it you think nobody can? It appears you tried to piece meal a 500+hp without having a comprehensive plan and failed? My advice of calling Bob is actually very sage. If might cost you some $ at the front end but when it comes time for delivery, you'll get what you planned for. In the end, it'll be a LOT cheaper and less painful than dicking around with it, trial and error style.

my short list would be a callies, lightweight forged stroker crank
some afr heads
good exhaust
victor intake
pro systems carb

if you can afford the stuff above, you can afford buying a cam and some advice from RMbuilder...


http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?65445-what-cam-for-500HP-out-of-a-330&highlight=


http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?64985-fastest-stock-headed-7-4-donzi&highlight=

Donzi_Dude
05-23-2013, 04:09 PM
My point is 550 out of a 454 isn't that difficult. I have seen MANY 454's with that much power and a lot more.



my point is your point is wrong. how do you know what i have or have not done? you dont!


:wavey:

still waiting on all the examples of folks easily making 550 that you have claimed again and again. maybe your troll game is not as good as you thought?

pipnit
05-23-2013, 04:22 PM
76154

I guess all of these guys are chumps for suggesting to call RMbuilder as well
http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/do-yourself-boating-budget/211387-building-496-454-cam-advice.html

MDonziM
05-23-2013, 05:20 PM
Greg, 550hp sounds a little optimistic for 9.6:1 compression. I have well built 454's in my magnum that are 550 to 575hp and that's with 4-5lbs of boost. Without the sc's probably around 450hp. 500 hp should be doable without loosing reliability but beyond that you are trying to 10 10ths out of a marine engine which is not for me. I would rather start with 502ci if 550 hp is your goal. - Marshall

Just Say N20
05-23-2013, 05:25 PM
Donzi Dude, why are almost all your posts inflammatory, apparently designed to provoke a confrontation?

There is nothing to be gained by provoking arguments. A simple question was asked.

I have a “mild” 400 SBC, with dyno sheets showing 430 hp @ 5,300, and 490 ft lbs @ 4,300. I wouldn’t have a clue how to create something like that, but someone did. My making such a statement doesn’t imply I’m any kind of expert in engine building. Someone stating that they know of something having been/not been done, answers the question that was asked. It was all that was asked.

In this case, not enough information was provided to accurately answer the question.

I KNOW for a fact that the guy that built my engine could build a VERY reliable 550 hp/454. How he would do it I haven’t a clue, but THAT he could do it, I have no doubt at all. I have ridden/driven boats with both twin 1200 hp engines, and twin 1350 hp engines that he built.

If you have information that will provide insight to a discussion, or answer specific questions, please do. The argumentative, confrontational nature of your posts detracts from the site, rather than enhance it.

duckhunter
05-23-2013, 06:22 PM
I agree with the previous comments about hiring a pro and watching the powerband. The 550hp 454 is absolutely "do able," but doing it under 5200rpm will take some planning and educated parts selection. Hard to do if this isn't your day job without some prohibitively expensive trial and error.

To the OP - throw up head & cam specs and let someone run it on desktop dyno and see what's in the realm of possible for that combo.

Donzi_Dude
05-23-2013, 06:43 PM
Donzi Dude, why are almost all your posts inflammatory, apparently designed to provoke a confrontation?

There is nothing to be gained by provoking arguments. A simple question was asked.

I have a “mild” 400 SBC, with dyno sheets showing 430 hp @ 5,300, and 490 ft lbs @ 4,300. I wouldn’t have a clue how to create something like that, but someone did. My making such a statement doesn’t imply I’m any kind of expert in engine building. Someone stating that they know of something having been/not been done, answers the question that was asked. It was all that was asked.

In this case, not enough information was provided to accurately answer the question.

I KNOW for a fact that the guy that built my engine could build a VERY reliable 550 hp/454. How he would do it I haven’t a clue, but THAT he could do it, I have no doubt at all. I have ridden/driven boats with both twin 1200 hp engines, and twin 1350 hp engines that he built.

If you have information that will provide insight to a discussion, or answer specific questions, please do. The argumentative, confrontational nature of your posts detracts from the site, rather than enhance it.


really?

so your going to brow beat me with you cack while you wait for the rest of the navy to show up?

so how about you post some dyno sheets or known combo's instead of being somebody that admits the dont know how to make horsepower but yet say's it so...

joseph m. hahnl
05-23-2013, 07:27 PM
http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4540236730532653&pid=1.7&w=264&h=139&c=7&rs=1http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4630474003121304&pid=1.7&w=224&h=173&c=7&rs=1ppppppppppppppppppp your kidding right ? I thought the question was, if the set up was 500 550 hp. and I thought this summed it up
Greg, 550hp sounds a little optimistic for 9.6:1 compression. I have well built 454's in my magnum that are 550 to 575hp and that's with 4-5lbs of boost. Without the sc's probably around 450hp. 500 hp should be doable without loosing reliability but beyond that you are trying to 10 10ths out of a marine engine which is not for me. I would rather start with 502ci if 550 hp is your goal. - Marshall
throwing parts at a block doesn't necessarily (http://search.mywebsearch.com/mywebsearch/redirect.jhtml?cb=XP&n=77ecd682&qid=13b943addbf643f4884c519fe9ee5a38&ord=1&ptb=F4658751-A5DB-4332-A8AF-8529DB5D57EB&ct=sc&id=XPxdm090APus&pg=GGmain&ptnrS=XPxdm090APus&action=click&redirect=GGmain.jhtml&ss=sub&pn=1&st=bar&tpr=sc&searchfor=necessarily) make HP, especially if you don't understand the dynamics. My 400 "I love saying that" has authentication on my registration as 270 HP.:wink: So Dude:pimp: any time you want To bring What You Got against my measly 270 hp . OH! And lets just say, I did, my home work :smash:

pipnit
05-23-2013, 07:38 PM
this thread delivers! lol

Just Say N20
05-23-2013, 07:50 PM
. . . or do I have any confidence that it will change your mind, but it is interesting to look at the numbers and understand what is going on.

The first attachment, in the first post. http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?67576-Happiness-is&highlight=dyno

BUIZILLA
05-23-2013, 08:12 PM
dude .... what was the size and dyno power on the BB in your father's elusive Criterion that you never proved that existed? any dyno sheets?

speaking of charts, let's see the final proof of ownership of that braggard exposition..

did it ever sell on that somewhat bogus ebay listing?

ohhhhh, snap :rlol:

gcarter
05-23-2013, 08:18 PM
I had an engine built last spring. It's based on a new Dart block w/4.5" bore, my 454 forged crankshaft (4.00" stroke), 9.25 CR, flat top forged pistons, and rectangular port iron heads. My builder doesn't care for dynos as, he says,they're tough on engines. But he believes the engine should produce between 475 and 500 HP.
Here's my point, there're no rules stating a Donzi has to have a 454. Why not a larger engine? It's much easier to build dependable HP when you have between 540 and 600 cubic inches. It needn't cost a lot more either.
So why buy a hand grenade when so many other engines are available?
Why spend huge sums on parts and master builders (not that there's anything wrong w/finding the best you can afford), when it's all so much easier to do w/another 100 cubic inches?
If you ask me, this is a no brainer?
It's certainly not worth the crap that's going on here!

pipnit
05-23-2013, 09:01 PM
Carter, I'm picking up what you're putting down. :yes:
In my case, I wanted to keep my block (for no good reason), a small block and the large hurdle of only using 87 octane.

pipnit
05-23-2013, 09:04 PM
Greg, 550hp sounds a little optimistic for 9.6:1 compression. I have well built 454's in my magnum that are 550 to 575hp and that's with 4-5lbs of boost. Without the sc's probably around 450hp. 500 hp should be doable without loosing reliability but beyond that you are trying to 10 10ths out of a marine engine which is not for me. I would rather start with 502ci if 550 hp is your goal. - Marshall

BTW Marshall, you're boat sounds bad to the bone.

Ed Donnelly
05-24-2013, 12:53 AM
Cack definition, a soft-soled, heelless shoe for infants

How can you argue with this genius???..Ed

Donzi_Dude
05-24-2013, 05:52 AM
dude .... what was the size and dyno power on the BB in your father's elusive Criterion that you never proved that existed? any dyno sheets?

speaking of charts, let's see the final proof of ownership of that braggard exposition..

did it ever sell on that somewhat bogus ebay listing?

ohhhhh, snap :rlol:


daddy never did own a boat and hes been dust for over 10 years so i dont think he ever will.

like clockwork you have proven the teabag navy will show up and play the only game they know, adhominem and pile-on. seeing how you have failed so miserably for years at it why stop now?

so i really dont have a clue what you ramble about but i will continue to let you dig your own grave as always.
im sure the rest of the members appreciate you staying on topic and posting credible evidence contrary to my claims. :rolleyes:

ohhhh,snap!

BUIZILLA
05-24-2013, 07:23 AM
sure has been nice and quiet while you've been gone

once a schmuck, always a schmuck, you have been conclusive with that

why don't you post a dyno sheet proving it can't be done??

Cya

joseph m. hahnl
05-24-2013, 08:25 AM
daddy never did own a boat and hes been dust for over 10 years so i dont think he ever will.

like clockwork you have proven the teabag navy will show up and play the only game they know, adhominem and pile-on. seeing how you have failed so miserably for years at it why stop now?

so i really dont have a clue what you ramble about but i will continue to let you dig your own grave as always.
im sure the rest of the members appreciate you staying on topic and posting credible evidence contrary to my claims. :rolleyes:

ohhhh,snap! never had a problem with you, I still don't. Nobody's piling on you Dude:bawling:. Think of it like a smelly fart once you let one rip everybody going to say something. Not to mention this is a reply forum isn't it? I also remember stories about the Criterion. Most of these guy's buy motors out of a box because they don't want or need the hassle of it all. Just as nobody needs or want's to be hassled on a performance boat site. If only some one made these for chat forums, You could learn from this product:phttp://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/flat-d_2259_3782444 (http://javascript<strong></strong>:makeWin('http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/flat-d_2259_3742699',608,372);) Flatulence Deodorizer - PREMIUM

Lasts longer - More durable, Hey isn’t it time to stop the release of unpleasant pungent gas odors? Our exclusive doctor recommended Premium pad instantly clears and sanitizes the air when gas is expelled… Without the tell-tale lingering odor that can instantly put you in a very awkward situation.

Donzi_Dude
05-24-2013, 08:37 AM
never had a problem with you, I still don't. Nobody's piling on you Dude:bawling:. Think of it like a smelly fart once you let one rip everybody going to say something. Not to mention this is a reply forum isn't it? I also remember stories about the Criterion. Most of these guy's buy motors out of a box because they don't want or need the hassle of it all. Just as nobody needs or want's to be hassled on a performance boat site. If only some one made these for chat forums, You could learn from this product:phttp://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/flat-d_2259_3782444 (http://javascript<strong></strong>:makeWin('http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/flat-d_2259_3742699',608,372);) Flatulence Deodorizer - PREMIUM

Lasts longer - More durable, Hey isn’t it time to stop the release of unpleasant pungent gas odors? Our exclusive doctor recommended Premium pad instantly clears and sanitizes the air when gas is expelled… Without the tell-tale lingering odor that can instantly put you in a very awkward situation.


ya, i know. me posting about the bogus claims of easy 550HP 454's all day, everyday are nothing but a big steamy pile.

:banghead:

"honest im not teabagin' ya' dude"

LMFAO!

ya, i hope everybody remembers the critter SS#13 because the boat exists and a bunch of folks know it does. just makes those claiming it dont look like even bigger clowns that they already do so keep bringing it up so we can "open the old wounds". ok?

joseph m. hahnl
05-24-2013, 09:29 AM
ya, i know. me posting about the bogus claims of easy 550HP 454's all day, everyday are nothing but a big steamy pile.

:banghead:

"honest im not teabagin' ya' dude"

LMFAO!

ya, i hope everybody remembers the critter SS#13 because the boat exists and a bunch of folks know it does. just makes those claiming it dont look like even bigger clowns that they already do so keep bringing it up so we can "open the old wounds". ok?BUT Dude! I never said it didn't exist. Ok ,any way ,so you are saying a 454 can not produce 550 hp .SO absolutely what your saying is a pile ofhttp://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.5028205130089802&w=103&h=103&c=8&pid=3.1&qlt=90 (http://www.donzi.net/images/search?q=picture+of+****&id=7D98996C480579E9D6D6867CBBCC2DCA00D1B052&FORM=IQFRBA) the problem is it takes Compression Ratio /cylinder pressure to make horse power , not just displacement and because most people do not understand compression .They are afraid of increasing it especially when it comes to getting back to shore . But they always talk about bolt on super chargers which does exactly that. So a guy running a stock dish in the 9's is not going to produce 550 hp unless he increases cylinder pressure mechanically. So all you Need to do is raise cylinder pressure and cam for volumetric efficiency and octane ratio. It is easy, just not for you because your argumentative like a 5 year old. NUH UH ! Grow up Dude! OH ,and I don't due Tea I'm a Coffee Man. Fag talk gets you know where here:rlol:

Donzi_Dude
05-24-2013, 09:57 AM
so you are saying a 454 can not produce 550 hp .SO absolutely what your saying is a pile ofhttp://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.5028205130089802&w=103&h=103&c=8&pid=3.1&qlt=90 (http://www.donzi.net/images/search?q=picture+of+****&id=7D98996C480579E9D6D6867CBBCC2DCA00D1B052&FORM=IQFRBA)It is easy, just not for you because your argumentative like a 5 year old.



yep, thats what i said?


i thinks it possible.

;)


:doh:

Carl C
05-24-2013, 10:21 AM
BUT Dude! I never said it didn't exist. Ok ,any way ,so you are saying a 454 can not produce 550 hp .SO absolutely what your saying is a pile ofhttp://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.5028205130089802&w=103&h=103&c=8&pid=3.1&qlt=90 (http://www.donzi.net/images/search?q=picture+of+****&id=7D98996C480579E9D6D6867CBBCC2DCA00D1B052&FORM=IQFRBA) the problem is it takes Compression Ratio /cylinder pressure to make horse power , not just displacement and because most people do not understand compression .They are afraid of increasing it especially when it comes to getting back to shore . But they always talk about bolt on super chargers which does exactly that. So a guy running a stock dish in the 9's is not going to produce 550 hp unless he increases cylinder pressure mechanically. So all you Need to do is raise cylinder pressure and cam for volumetric efficiency and octane ratio. It is easy, just not for you because your argumentative like a 5 year old. NUH UH ! Grow up Dude! OH ,and I don't due Tea I'm a Coffee Man. Fag talk gets you know where here:rlol:

That's a BIG pile of doodoo! Mechanical compression increase isn't the same as SC increase as supercharging increases the volume of air fuel intake charge. Burn more fuel, make more power. As far as 550 HP from a n/a 454, I'd say that it can be done but everything would be pretty well maxed out. You'll also be burning premium fuel. Mercury Racing got about 540 hp out of a 502 that burns 87 octane. (hp525 efi)

joseph m. hahnl
05-24-2013, 10:28 AM
That's a BIG pile of doodoo! Mechanical compression increase isn't the same as SC increase as supercharging increases the volume of air fuel intake charge. Burn more fuel, make more power. As far as 550 HP from a n/a 454, I'd say that it can be done but everything would be pretty well maxed out. You'll also be burning premium fuel. Mercury Racing got about 540 hp out of a 502 that burns 87 octane. (hp525 efi)That's why you bought your engine out of a box :propeller:

joseph m. hahnl
05-24-2013, 10:42 AM
That's a BIG pile of doodoo! Mechanical compression increase isn't the same as SC increase as supercharging increases the volume of air fuel intake charge. Burn more fuel, make more power. . (hp525 efi) Wrong answer! it increase the volume in the combustion chamber exactly the same as compression ratio. The only advantage to the sc is it becomes Variable with RPM

joseph m. hahnl
05-24-2013, 11:05 AM
Does this build up have the "good stuff" and is 550 ponies about right?

454cid 550hp Dart Big M Iron block, 9 1/2 to 1 compression, Bravo drive w/shower
Crane hyd roller Cam w/roller lifters & gold roller rockers, Hardin SS sea pump
Manley SS intake valves & Inconel exhaust valves -10hrs on engine fresh water only
Imco exhaust manifolds with SS risers, Cyclone SS mufflers tips, Halon fire system
Holly 830 carb, MSD ign system w/rev limiter & distrib, dual batteries w/switch


sorry Geg I got off track to the question.it definitely has some good stuff, although gold rockers ,mean aluminum which are prone to fatigue and adjustment .The Big M block is awesome. way better than a GM 502 .and that said could easily have been dyno'd at 550

Donzi_Dude
05-24-2013, 11:16 AM
Wrong answer! it increase the volume in the combustion chamber exactly the same as compression ratio. The only advantage to the sc is it becomes Variable with RPM

wrong answer.

the supercharger helps overcome flow restrictions along the entire pathway, not just compress more into the cylinder.

Carl C
05-24-2013, 11:18 AM
sorry Geg I got off track to the question.it definitely has some good stuff, although gold rockers ,mean aluminum which are prone to fatigue and adjustment .The Big M block is awesome. way better than a GM 502 .and that said could easily have been dyno'd at 550

You can draw this conclusion without knowing anything about the heads, cam specs or intake manifold? And on an engine without the scavenging benefit of long tube headers?

If you think that upping compression is the same as SCing then I suggest that you buy your engines from a builder also. ;)

Ghost
05-24-2013, 11:19 AM
I suspect the word that makes the discussion a bit tricky is 'volume.' A fixed mass of air has a different volume depending on the ambient temperature and pressure. Since we're used to near-sea-level pressures and a fairly narrow range of temperatures, we don't think much about the volume change of a fixed mass of air (which is a fixed number of molecules), and we think only of the mechanical compression ratio (volume with piston up/volume with piston down) with little regard to ambient conditions.

But to Joseph's point, that mechanical compression is only part of the picture. A motor in space illustrates the point. The mechanical compression ratio, say 9:1, is the same as on Earth, but there's no compression and no power to be had. The absolute pressure at the peak of the compression stroke is still pretty-much zero.

Come down to a mountain top and you'll have at least a little air to work with. The mechanical compression ratio is still 9:1, but unlike in space, now there's at least a mass of air to compress. And the absolute pressure at the peak of compression is nonzero. It's less than we'd like and will seem weak to us, but you can run the motor.

Come down to sea level and a larger mass of air will make it into the cylinder and get compressed. The mechanical compression ratio remains 9:1, but there are more air molecules in there at the start of compression and more at the peak. So the absolute pressure at peak compression is higher than it was on the mountain.

Take the motor deep into a mine (below sea level) and the ambient air pressure will go up further, and the trend continues. I suspect running a supercharger gives exactly the same effect. From the motor's perspective, supercharger boost is just like going closer to the center of the Earth, where the ambient air pressure is greater. More air molecules come in on the intake stroke and get compressed. Mechanical compression still stays at 9:1, but the absolute pressure of the air/fuel mixture at peak compression is greater.

I would expect that the concerns with detonation have to do with the absolute pressure at peak compression and NOT on mechanical compression ratio. We think of 11:1 mechanical compression as being pretty high, but such rules of thumb are based on assumptions of sea-levelish pressures and typical temperatures. At high enough altitude (AKA, with thin enough air), you could have 50:1 mechanical compression ratio and you'd still have lower absolute pressure at peak compression than you would in a stock v8. And could thus theoretically run on 87 octane, despite the 50:1 mechanical compression ratio, right?

Anyhow, that's a long way of saying what I *think* Joseph was talking about.

(EDIT: sorry if I was responding to a sidebar discusion here, I didn't pay attention to where the thread started.)

joseph m. hahnl
05-24-2013, 12:12 PM
wrong answer.

the supercharger helps overcome flow restrictions along the entire pathway, not just compress more into the cylinder. NAH AHHHH ! Its the end result THE CUMBUSTION CHAMBER.
You guys crack me up .Ghost . what you say about volume effected by temp is true. . Carl.I did build my own you should try it yourself What I said was That a Dart M block could Have been easily Dynoed Your right I don't know for sure because it's just a parts list. But it is the quality of the parts list that I see. No Cheap GM or Mercruiser parts Logic would dictate, that it is well built internally also. Most don't spend $1000 more for a block and put cast crap in, Notable mention is an 830 carb :confused: on a 454 :rolleyes:People try to overcomplicate combustion with big words and space travel. But it's pretty simple, you stuff a hole ton of atomized fuel and air into a tiny little pocket and the you light it. the more volume the tighter the pack the bigger the bang the more velocity the more cylinder pressure the quicker the cylinder evacuates exhaust gases and the quicker it fills. perhaps if we where talking guns some would understand better. I do believe I also mentioned volumetric efficiency. I think some need a book, I'm doing just fine. Some people need to use a schematic to wire a battery :biggrin.:

gcarter
05-24-2013, 12:30 PM
Last year sometime, someone asked about a way to compare engines w/o a lot of analysis. Since Mike made this very clear evaluation, it reminded me of last year's thread.
The answer is Brake Mean Effective Pressure (BMEP), which is easily calculable, and will separate the hand grenades from the engines with long life and dependable power. For dependability, a lower number is desired, versus a (much) high number for a NASCAR or Formula One engine. A 550 HP engine w/ 600 cubic inches and moderate CR might have a BMEP of 125-150, whereas a race car engine (or the afore mentioned 550 HP 454, might be in the 200 range. All you have to do is a little math and you can't go wrong. Lower is better for longevity. Also, as I stated above, it's a lot easier to make HP w/more cubic inches.
There're quite a few interesting articles that can be Googled.
I think this is a particularly good one;
http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/bmep_performance_yardstick.htm

Donzi_Dude
05-24-2013, 12:31 PM
NAH AHHHH ! Its the end result THE CUMBUSTION CHAMBER.
You guys crack me up .Ghost . what you say about volume effected by temp is true. . Carl.I did build my own you should try it yourself What I said was That a Dart M block could Have been easily Dynoed Your right I don't know for sure because it's just a parts list. But it is the quality of the parts list that I see. No Cheap GM or Mercruiser parts Logic would dictate, that it is well built internally also. Most don't spend $1000 more for a block and put cast crap in, Notable mention is an 830 carb :confused: on a 454 :rolleyes:People try to overcomplicate combustion with big words and space travel. But it's pretty simple, you stuff a hole ton of atomized fuel and air into a tiny little pocket and the you light it. the more volume the tighter the pack the bigger the bang the more velocity the more cylinder pressure the quicker the cylinder evacuates exhaust gases and the quicker it fills. perhaps if we where talking guns some would understand better. I due believe I also addressed volumetric efficiency. I think some need a book, I'm doing just fine. Some people need to use a schematic to wire a battery :biggrin.:

unfortunately you forgot to equate parasitic loss into your space odyssey.

:boat:

gcarter
05-24-2013, 12:39 PM
If no one responds, it'll all go away.
If you do respond, you get what you deserve.
You can do it, just count to ten before posting.

joseph m. hahnl
05-24-2013, 12:44 PM
unfortunately you forgot to equate parasitic loss into your space odyssey.

:boat:

http://www.ishouldhavesaid.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/did-you-fart.jpg

Ed Donnelly
05-24-2013, 09:34 PM
7,8,9,10, Hi George.. How are you doing tonight???..Ed

Phil S
05-24-2013, 09:46 PM
Post up that schematic on the battery thingy when you get a minute...;)

Phil S.

Conquistador_del_mar
05-24-2013, 11:47 PM
If no one responds, it'll all go away.
If you do respond, you get what you deserve.
You can do it, just count to ten before posting.

Yep, trolls thrive on responses. Back to ignore.

joseph m. hahnl
05-25-2013, 08:12 AM
Post up that schematic on the battery thingy when you get a minute...;)

Phil S.;):Dhttp://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4586351810054326&pid=1.7&w=235&h=167&c=7&rs=1

Pat McPherson
05-25-2013, 11:54 AM
Back to the original question: 550HP from a NA 454 is for sure possible but probably not with great reliability in a marine environment.



Here’s a combo that dyno’d 509HP @ 5600rpm with all the marine accessories bolted on.


Gen V 454 mag short block bored 0.030 over.


World Products VR iron heads.


JE pistons with CR approx 10:1 (need to run 93octane)


Crane 731 cam


Crane gold roller rockers


Edelbrock single plane, I think Vector


BG 830cfm carb


Imco power flow exhaust


Merc thunderbolt ignition


This engine has been running for 10+ years (500+hours)



My best boating bud just build this exact block, head, and cam combo with flat tops and a 525SC 177 blower, 1050cfm carb on top. Did not dyno but it’s pushing his 29’ Fountain well over 75mph @ 5300rpm spinning a 27p 4blade.

MOP
05-25-2013, 01:06 PM
Re reading the initial post IMO leaves a big question! What was done to the internals does the poster even know? All here seem to lean on a poor build it has a weak bottom. It may very well have been done right and have affew more cubes, some clues would be the Dart block and other goodies mentioned. Lets get ALL the facts to see how it really washes out! A very close friend campaigned a 454, he says you can get quite a bit more than 550 N/A talking strip HP.

Donzi_Dude
05-25-2013, 01:38 PM
its pretty simple really.

can a 454 deliver the goods before 5500 and run all year long. i say your a stud if you can build one...

folks that know nothing about building one insist its easy.

:bonk:

as to the original poster without knowing more specs i suspect your looking @ 450-500 in a marine app.

Carl C
05-25-2013, 02:08 PM
You will not get there by just bolting parts together. This would require balancing, blueprinting, port matching and lots of knowledge and attention to detail. Top quality parts are a must for longevity. This is why I went with a reputable builder (Mercury Racing) for my engine. I will build my own hot rod car engines but I know my limitations. There is no doubt that a good marine engine builder could make 550 n/a hp with a 454 and keep it reasonably reliable. I doubt it could run on 87 octane fuel though.

Pat McPherson
05-25-2013, 02:43 PM
No offence guys, but I rather be out running my boat than talking HP. I have build a number of engines for both cars and boats. Building a 550 HP na 454 can be done, but it doesn't make sense for a boat. Better to start with a 502cube for 550HP as it will probably cost the same or less and last longer. Personally, I like running stock power or no more that 1HP per cube in a boat. I've been towed in too many times pushing the envelope. Carl makes a good point with his 525Merc. Personally I think that engine can be built for 50-60% of Merc charges, but it's a good example none the less. Gen VI Chevy 502 short block, Crane 741 cam, Edelbrock alum heads, 900cfm carb or efi on a single plan intake, Big Tube headers and your close to 550HP.

Brian41
05-25-2013, 03:45 PM
We consistently build reliable aspirated engines for marine apps with 1.2 to 1.4 HP per CUI . A 454 at 1.2 comes out to 544.2 HP but we would be spinning it at 5400-5600 RPM's and it would not be cheap. We build a 572 that puts out 804 HP (1.4 HP per CUI) spinning 6100 RPM's its price is close to Merc's 525 and reliability has been just as good if not better.

Conquistador_del_mar
05-25-2013, 07:52 PM
We consistently build reliable aspirated engines for marine apps with 1.2 to 1.4 HP per CUI . A 454 at 1.2 comes out to 544.2 HP but we would be spinning it at 5400-5600 RPM's and it would not be cheap. We build a 572 that puts out 804 HP (1.4 HP per CUI) spinning 6100 RPM's its price is close to Merc's 525 and reliability has been just as good if not better.

Brian,
I would like to ask if you use a solid lift roller cam and aluminum heads on the 572s that make 804HP. Bill

Brian41
05-27-2013, 10:19 AM
Brian,
I would like to ask if you use a solid lift roller cam and aluminum heads on the 572s that make 804HP. Bill


Bill, The 572's run custom hydraulic cams and AFR heads. With todays cam and lifter technology there is NO NO NO reason to run solid cams for our applications.Did I mention NO enough? The aluminum AFR heads went through a 40 hour CnC program at ARF and then final message was done by the master Tony Mamo. The intakes also have a lot of CnC work done a Wilson Manifolds (nascar stuff). Its all in the breathing.... air in air out.

BUIZILLA
05-27-2013, 11:48 AM
_word_

ITTLFLI
05-27-2013, 12:12 PM
_word_

:yes:

Conquistador_del_mar
05-27-2013, 01:11 PM
Bill, The 572's run custom hydraulic cams and AFR heads. With todays cam and lifter technology there is NO NO NO reason to run solid cams for our applications.Did I mention NO enough? The aluminum AFR heads went through a 40 hour CnC program at ARF and then final message was done by the master Tony Mamo. The intakes also have a lot of CnC work done a Wilson Manifolds (nascar stuff). Its all in the breathing.... air in air out.

So the 572s that you make run a hydraulic roller cam - right? Can I ask why a solid lift roller cam is so much out of the picture? Is it the valve lash adjustments that need to made periodically? Bill

Brian41
05-28-2013, 07:48 AM
So the 572s that you make run a hydraulic roller cam - right? Can I ask why a solid lift roller cam is so much out of the picture? Is it the valve lash adjustments that need to made periodically? Bill


Yes all OUR marine engines run hydraulic cams. Like I stated in my earlier post with todays CnC cam programs there is no need to go solid lifter to make power in the 5000-6000 RPM range. The valve train is the week point in these engines when it comes to making this kind of aspirated power and valve adjustment intervals on solids are about 25 hours and hydraulic cams about 75 hours.

roadtrip se
05-28-2013, 09:40 AM
Want to have some fun? Stop by Brian's place one night, pour yourself a Bud, settle-in, and bring this one up. I have several times and I learn something every time. I happen to be running a solid with a shaft rocker system, NA, not to mention some other pretty fancy pieces at 700, via a 540 BBC. Ron Potter made this recommendation, based on how hard I wanted to spin this thing, and none of it was inexpensive. I respect what Brian does, and have talked to customers that love his builds that run the crap out of them, and they just run. Different strokes....

Now back to a 454 running 550....

Conquistador_del_mar
05-28-2013, 12:42 PM
Yes all OUR marine engines run hydraulic cams. Like I stated in my earlier post with todays CnC cam programs there is no need to go solid lifter to make power in the 5000-6000 RPM range. The valve train is the week point in these engines when it comes to making this kind of aspirated power and valve adjustment intervals on solids are about 25 hours and hydraulic cams about 75 hours.


Thanks Brian. I was asking because the 572s (supposedly 850HP) I am restoring for my Cigarette came with solid lift roller cams, but they were built about 9 years ago by a NASCAR engine builder for marine use. My mechanic told me the solid lift was probably used to increase the top RPM range. From what you are saying, I will probably be fine as long as I set the valve lashes periodically. I don't plan to run them past 6000 RPMs and probably only 5500 RPMs. Thanks again, Bill

sorry about the thread derailment

Donzi_Dude
05-28-2013, 08:51 PM
i agree with Brian about a hydraulic being the way to go for 99% of the peeps. now if i wanted to make it live over 6G's and race offshore...


:biggrin:

Greg Guimond
05-28-2013, 09:51 PM
Does this build up have the "good stuff" and is 550 ponies about right?

454cid 550hp Dart Big M Iron block, 9 1/2 to 1 compression, Bravo drive w/shower
Crane hyd roller Cam w/roller lifters & gold roller rockers, Hardin SS sea pump
Manley SS intake valves & Inconel exhaust valves -10hrs on engine fresh water only
Imco exhaust manifolds with SS risers, Cyclone SS mufflers tips, Halon fire system
Holly 830 carb, MSD ign system w/rev limiter & distrib, dual batteries w/switch


Interesting comments, and an 'ahem.....spirited exchange. Based on all the insights, it sounds like 450-470hp is the more likely "reasonable" output of this particular old dog build. Now back to the Hall of Fame Induction on HBO. :biggrin.:

SanDogDewey
05-29-2013, 11:45 AM
Apparently, 550 isn't a problem...I don't think it'll fit in my Ski Sporter though...

http://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/boa/3828437354.html

pipnit
05-29-2013, 02:09 PM
wait, what? That guy had that thing in a 28 foot commander? As in a Chris Craft commander? lol

SanDogDewey
05-29-2013, 02:39 PM
going 102!!

Motor was in a 28'' foot Commander with a 30'' pitch prop 102gps @ 4200 rpm

76209

r_faile86
05-30-2013, 11:42 PM
Heads, its all about heads. Im new to the motor building game and learning a lot as I have done my motor swap. Ive seen 2 454's before mine make 530 and 570's on a dyno. First had a set of afr heads and the 1000 cfm carb i ran on it and made 530. Second one was Injected....468 bore with a stroked crank...i think it comes out to 492 or so. 525 efi and tons of other goodies and he made a ton of power on the dyne. Natural aspiration is healthy as long as you have a good steel crank and bearings. A good friend of mine thats helped me swapped his 454 out for a 502, bored to 509 with a procharger on just 2-3 lbs of boost. Ive personally seen his dyno sheet and he made 704hp on pump gas.

I agree completely, have someone with experience build you a good reliable motor and go with a good set of heads. Worth the investment. Fully built 454 bored, stroked, and with a higher compression is easily capable of over 600 hp....just not worth spending the money for something thats not gonna last!!