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patricke
04-26-2013, 11:59 AM
What a way to ruin myFriday:mad:

I had my 18TR in the shop to get the motor balanced, cammed, intake, ignition/prop work done, as I had mentioned in past posts I was looking for a little more top end speed out of my 350.

My mechanic just notified me that I have a 5-6 inch crack in the front of my block from freezing. I have kept the boat in my heated garage in very mild CA weather since I bought it so it must have been there a while. I have noticed mysterious water in the bilge in the past and when I pulled it out to trailer to shop. ARGHHHHHHH

Anyway, I've got to move on in life and look at potential options now.

Options are:

-metal stitch for 8-900 bucks. (block aparently may have other hairlines they cant see now)?

-New block?

-Put in a fuel injected larger motor maybe 383 Mag?

(waiting on pricing from mechanic on last two options)


NOTES:
My carbed 350 mag got me to 58mph spinning 4800 RPM. I wanted more than that. The cost of the performance add ons were going to cost me $4,000. So Im going to be in it $5,000 if I go with the metal stitching of the block as it is and aparently I wouldve been able to achieve around 65 MPH with a new prop as well.

Also, I do not want to disrupt the beautiful lines of my TR so having to cut a hole for a hatch modification is not in the cards if I go with a new engine.

lastly, Im running an alpha1 outdrive.


Bretheren of the Donzi forum I ask you all for your help and opinions on what I should do here!!:frown:


thank you,

Patrick

Ghost
04-26-2013, 12:27 PM
Sorry, that sucks. Sounds like a 383 might be the way to get where you want to be. (More than your drive is rated for, but only slightly, and you can mitigate that with how hard you stand on it out of the hole, I'd think.)

duckhunter
04-26-2013, 12:29 PM
Sorry to hear about your block!

The only way I would do a metal stitch repair would be on a rare irreplaceable motor. The small block Chevy is the exact opposite of that. You can pick up a machined block from any number of places for less than the cost you quoted for the stitch job, and it wouldn't be a well-used marine block.

Personally, I would find a local machinist and come up with a recipe for a mild 383 since you're doing a complete build. Or find a 383 crate engine from a reputable manufacturer. Sticking with 350 cubes at this point would essentially be giving up free horsepower.

All can be done on a realistic budget from $5k to whatever you want to spend - the sky is the limit! I would do some searching here and other places to find some reliable small block recipes; there are a ton of them floating around.

patricke
04-26-2013, 12:33 PM
Sorry, that sucks. Sounds like a 383 might be the way to get where you want to be. (More than your drive is rated for, but only slightly, and you can mitigate that with how hard you stand on it out of the hole, I'd think.)

Ghost, I can definately mitigate that as I dont like to nail her out of the hole as it is. Just something to crank me more when Im getting to WOT. Thanks.

patricke
04-26-2013, 12:41 PM
Sorry to hear about your block!

The only way I would do a metal stitch repair would be on a rare irreplaceable motor. The small block Chevy is the exact opposite of that. You can pick up a machined block from any number of places for less than the cost you quoted for the stitch job, and it wouldn't be a well-used marine block.

Personally, I would find a local machinist and come up with a recipe for a mild 383 since you're doing a complete build. Or find a 383 crate engine from a reputable manufacturer. Sticking with 350 cubes at this point would essentially be giving up free horsepower.

All can be done on a realistic budget from $5k to whatever you want to spend - the sky is the limit! I would do some searching here and other places to find some reliable small block recipes; there are a ton of them floating around.

This is great information Duckhunter thank you. What do you think I could get out of a pretty stock 383 crate motor top end in my boat with the right prop? Should I go with a carbed or EFI variety? I imagine I could find one that can mount right in to where the 350 was but I dont know. Thoughts on this?

**BTW noticed you have a whaler. Grew up fishing on my Grandfathers 21' outrage center console. best boat ever. Came with twin Evinrude 85's which ended up being a horrible set up for fuel....then switched to a 150 Mercury which was plenty for that boat.

thanks again.

BUIZILLA
04-26-2013, 01:28 PM
www.musclemarineinc.com

www.michiganmotorz.com (http://www.michiganmotorz.com)

patricke
04-26-2013, 02:11 PM
thanks 'Zilla

VetteLT193
04-26-2013, 02:20 PM
If you want EFI and value I have heard that "Marine Power" is a good option. I haven't used them myself but the prices are right.

http://www.marinepowerusa.com/replacement_sportpac.php

gcarter
04-26-2013, 03:39 PM
Michigan Motorz does a remarkable job

duckhunter
04-26-2013, 03:57 PM
This is great information Duckhunter thank you. What do you think I could get out of a pretty stock 383 crate motor top end in my boat with the right prop? Should I go with a carbed or EFI variety? I imagine I could find one that can mount right in to where the 350 was but I dont know. Thoughts on this?

**BTW noticed you have a whaler. Grew up fishing on my Grandfathers 21' outrage center console. best boat ever. Came with twin Evinrude 85's which ended up being a horrible set up for fuel....then switched to a 150 Mercury which was plenty for that boat.

thanks again.

Patricke -

No idea on top end, but the extra torque and horsepower can't hurt. Someone more educated can take a SWAG. With the Alpha drive being your limiting factor you can't run a torque monster, but I would think that anything between 325-375hp could be reliable providing you don't beat on the boat from a dead stop or go wave jumping. The nice thing about the 383 is it is the exact same block you're running now with a little bit of machine work. Since you will be replacing everything internal to the motor there is no benefit to building another 350 - the costs are pretty much a wash. All of your accessories will bolt right up.

There are a lot of engine builders out there that will do what you're looking for, the harder part is finding one that will make reliable power for more than a season. Read some of the horror stories here and elsewhere while you're deciding on a budget. Often less initial cost leads to exponentially more heartache (and cost) down the road. That said, a 383 long block shouldn't break the bank, and you will be able to re-use all of your accessories if they are still good. Replacing marginal stuff (pumps, exhaust, etc) will happen so make sure you budget for that.

Good luck!

Conquistador_del_mar
04-26-2013, 05:09 PM
Michigan Motorz does a remarkable job

+1 on Michigan Motorz. They even worked on the price with me recently when I pointed out another seller's ad on ebay. You can't beat their shipping costs either unless you consider that Jeg's was running a free shipping deal on their engines recently. Bill

patricke
04-26-2013, 05:10 PM
Vette and George thanks for the recs, I will check them out. Michiganmotorz came up for me earlier when I searched, good to hear they are legit.

Duckhunter, You are right, Looks like if I go that route I am willing to plunk down the 9-10k for the 383 stroker with an iron-clad 3 year mercruiser warranty with their no questions-asked claim servicing from what I hear......

My guy is telling me:

9800 engine
4-500 misc
700 prop
1250 labor

Thoughts everyone?????

patricke
04-26-2013, 05:22 PM
Another rec for michiganmotorz from Bill...thank you. checking with them right now.

thanks!

Just Say N20
04-26-2013, 07:09 PM
Patricke,

I had a 400 built. All said and done there is right around $14,000 in the engine. It dyno'd at 430 hp @ 5,300, and 490 ft lbs @ 4,300 on 87 octane.

If you are judiscious with your throttle, the Alpha isn't necessarily an instant death issue. I know of a 22 running a 330 hp 454 thru an Alpha with 1.36:1 gears that has lasted for years. He did install a drive shower, which he believes helped a lot.

olredalert
04-26-2013, 08:37 PM
----I have been one of the main "Michigan Motorz" slappys for quite awhile now. I will also give them a big, big thumbs up. Two years ago I bought a 350 standard long-block from them and had a big problem on start up that was our fault, NOT theirs. We yanked it out and took it back to M-M and they took pity on us and not only figured out what we did wrong, but fixed everything. The price should have been $1500 at least for the repair and they asked only for $1000. Im a customer for life and refer every boater I know to them.
----I seem to remember a great 383 package that they sell!!!.......Bill S

duckhunter
04-26-2013, 09:04 PM
My guy is telling me:

9800 engine
4-500 misc
700 prop
1250 labor

Thoughts everyone?????

Very realistic budget. It might could be done for a little less, but depending on what ankle biters pop up it is probably pretty darn close. Seems like a lot of guys think that a whole new motor can be dropped in for $3k. You can certainly buy an "AWESOME BRAND NEW REBUILT HEAVY DUTY MOFO MARINE TRACTOR PULL DRAG RACE ZORA DUNTOV AUTOGRAPHED 383 STROKER!!!!!" on ebay for like $1500, but you get what you pay for. I'd take $200 out of the prop budget and put it towards misc, but that's nitpicking.

Sounds like a lot of good feedback on M-M. That says a lot to me, particularly with the crowd on here. I would add that GM Vortec heads are the best bang for the buck going for a small block and it looks like they have several combos with those heads.

joseph m. hahnl
04-27-2013, 08:40 AM
Very realistic budget. It might could be done for a little less, but depending on what ankle biters pop up it is probably pretty darn close. Seems like a lot of guys think that a whole new motor can be dropped in for $3k. You can certainly buy an "AWESOME BRAND NEW REBUILT HEAVY DUTY MOFO MARINE TRACTOR PULL DRAG RACE ZORA DUNTOV AUTOGRAPHED 383 STROKER!!!!!" on ebay for like $1500, but you get what you pay for. I'd take $200 out of the prop budget and put it towards misc, but that's nitpicking.

Sounds like a lot of good feedback on M-M. That says a lot to me, particularly with the crowd on here. I would add that GM Vortec heads are the best bang for the buck going for a small block and it looks like they have several combos with those heads.

If you go with the Vortec, a pre engineered motor fully assembeled, in the long run would save you $ over trying to retro fit a pre vortec block. Personally I'm a big fan of short blocks. if you go this route you can still cam it and do all those mods you intended to do and "although not manadatory" build the rotating assembly with forged internals rather then a cast crank and hyperuetic pistons.Think future upgrades:D. This will also allow you to adjust the compression ratio for you cam selection.Meaning Your not going to be throwing in a full race cam that's running a Static CR in the 9's unless you intend to increase cylinder pressure mechanically with a super charger. That said a stroker with Your existing heads will bump up the STR which would allow /or be neccessary to use a longer duration cam "Later closing Intake",to still run on mid grade fuel.
I built my 400 in the 10's with aluminum 64'cc combustion heads. I can allways go back to iron by using a a larger cumbustion chamber and a cam change.

gcarter
04-27-2013, 12:58 PM
Patrick, those numbers will depend on how much you're willing to do.
I haven't looked at Michigan Motorz's site lately, but I seem to remember a number of offered engines in various stages of completeness for less than that.
I would think if you're fairly mechanically talented, and have a Merc manual, you could do over 90% of it yourself.

biggiefl
04-27-2013, 11:42 PM
No offense but if you spend that much on a 383....you deserve the uncomfortable feeling in your posterior. I ran 400-420hp BBC through an Alpha for 10 years with a 1:32 and NEVER had a problem. The driver for Baja racing was running 450 and said just take it easy on it. I think the moderator was selling 383's for less than half...research it please.

PS...I was running a 21 Mirage and doing 5k+ redline. So I was not babying it....she ran 65+ which aint bad for a 24 Baja.

MR MAGOO
04-28-2013, 05:30 AM
Call Harbormaster Scot @ Victory Marine. I believe he had some gear deals on Mercury 383 Scorpion engine packages for $7995. Drop it in and run.

If you do go this route, the only issue you'd need to address is wiring the shift interrupter swich into the EFI ign system. I'm told it can be done, just forget how.

That's the route I would take!

knots2u
04-28-2013, 11:50 AM
I've known the owner (Eddie Albright) of MarinePower for close to 25 years. I almost went to work for him after running Barr Marine for 12 years, Louisiana was a little to flat for me, ended up working as a consultant for a little while. I saw on MP's website Michigan Motorz is a distributor, your decision should be easy.


Bob

patricke
04-28-2013, 06:11 PM
You guys are great thanks again all for all the sound advice here as always. I am going to repower with the 383 mag stroker EFI. I am going to locate a motor and drop er in. A new one with the reman'd block from mercruiser with the 3 yr factory warranty seems to be the right way to go for me.

I'll try and reach out to all the dealers you folks mentioned and will keep everyone updated. Im going to turn lemons into lemonade on this one and put in something thats going to give me everything I need performance and reliability wise so I am pretty stoked!

Thanks again all!

Patrick

patricke
05-31-2013, 05:14 PM
Hey guys just dropping in to keep you posted. I had the 383 stroker installed And it really kicks ass. Although this was an almost plug-and-play install, there were some issues however. I of course have noticed a lot more torque but I am still experiencing the same miles per hour in TopSpeed @ W OT. After breaking in the motor I'm going to have her properly re propped of corse. Not to start another prop help thread on this site but does anybody have any advice? I am currently running a 19 pitch 80s cleaver and I know that I can do much better. I just need a reference point to start from. At 5000 RPMs I am seeing 60 mph I am wondering what I could achieve with the right prop? Anyway, here are the issues I ran into during install.:

-My Portside Stringer was three quarters of an inch higher than the other one therefore we had to modify the motor mount as they did on my original engine. The exhaust manifold on that side now rubs on the underside of my engine hatch and I'm going to route out a small piece into the balsa wood core to make room for clearance there so it will no longer rattle. We also had to replace the existing air cleaner cover bolt with a more low-profile one so it would clear the hatch.

Because I am running an Alpha outdrive we had to install a shift interrupt kit. This kit is much superior than using other options that people often use that actually have to alter the idle so that the engine may shift in and out of gear which is what I did not want to do.

Also required was the installation of a transom mounted water intake kit. The kit included a chrome enclosure if you will that protrudes below the keel. My question i have on this is that now I am Experiencing "trim" from the protruding pick up causing bow lift on the drivers side. Has anyone else had any experience with this?


Thanks for all the input and help along the way here guys you really helped me with making the right decision for this motor swap!:worthy:
76235

MOP
05-31-2013, 05:51 PM
You are having an issue with the water p/u because it is to deep. It should only about 1/8" below the hull. Speed question!! I would bet you are hitting rev limiter, tha 383 will need atleast 2 more inches of pitch maybe more. A 383 due to its torque can be propped a tad under 5K. The more pitch I put on my 383 the faster I went and may try another inch, torque not HP is what we use in our toys.

BUIZILLA
05-31-2013, 05:59 PM
get a 23.............

Donzi_Dude
05-31-2013, 07:13 PM
http://www.dartheads.com/products/short-block-assemblies/small-block-chevy-427-short-blocks.html



:anchor:

patricke
05-31-2013, 11:50 PM
MOP, yeah i gotta have em trim it down its dam near an inch past the hull line! I just measured.

How much more mph do you guys think i could get with the right prop?

like lets say a 23 Buizilla?

pipnit
06-01-2013, 07:01 AM
Trim that pickup ASAP. Too much water pressure can lead to a blown head gasket.

joseph m. hahnl
06-01-2013, 08:06 AM
If it is hitting the rev limiter ,you not going to have a good base line to really see where it is at. Like Jim, said a 23 is a good starting point as it should still have lots of punch power and bring the rev's down. I think your just burning up :kaioken:the 19P which is to small even for a 350 cid. I ran a 21 on my 350 mag,it ran 4800 rpm in the cold, 4600 rpm in the heat, average top speed was 58. Same prop with the :uzi: JO PRO 400 , 68mph @5200 rpm. :umbrella: I'm teetering between a 23p and a 25p

olredalert
06-01-2013, 09:32 AM
----You havent told us where you ended up buying from. I for one am interested.......Bill S

Pismo
06-01-2013, 10:01 AM
Avoid Marine Power, had problems there.

gcarter
06-01-2013, 10:14 AM
The 350 Vortec in my Minx probably produced 320 HP and w/a Hydro Q4 15.5 X 22 I could run 65 @ 4800 RPM. That was the best prop I ever tried on that boat.
If you follow Jim's advice and try a 23, you can probably run 68 w/a healthy 383.

MOP
06-01-2013, 10:20 AM
IMO I do not think a 23 will be enough, I have 22C with a 383 running a 23" 4B and spin it to 5050 getting 65.5. John a local buddy is running a 24" 4B on his 18 not sure of his top end but the boat hauls away from my 65.5 loafer.

Incidentally my going from a 23" 3B Merc cleaver to the current 23" 4B netted me almost 1mph, there is a lot more to this propping thing than many realize. Just throwing out numbers don't work, you need to borrow a few before you plunk down$$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!

biggiefl
06-01-2013, 11:07 PM
Depends on the prop....a 23XYZ might run 65 @ 4900 and a 23 Mirage might run 67 @ 4800. Can't go by pitch alone. I have run 4 different OMC SST props at the SAME size and had 4 different results.

biggiefl
06-01-2013, 11:11 PM
MOP....a 23 4 blade at 5050 with a 150:1 ratio does not make sense at 65mph. A 23 3 blade does s the 4 blade is more like 25+pitch. Is it the drag?

Donzi_Dude
06-02-2013, 06:42 AM
MOP....a 23 4 blade at 5050 with a 150:1 ratio does not make sense at 65mph. A 23 3 blade does s the 4 blade is more like 25+pitch. Is it the drag?


it depends on the manufacture.

joseph m. hahnl
06-02-2013, 07:51 AM
IMO I do not think a 23 will be enough, I have 22C with a 383 running a 23" 4B and spin it to 5050 getting 65.5. John a local buddy is running a 24" 4B on his 18 not sure of his top end but the boat hauls away from my 65.5 loafer.

Incidentally my going from a 23" 3B Merc cleaver to the current 23" 4B netted me almost 1mph, there is a lot more to this propping thing than many realize. Just throwing out numbers don't work, you need to borrow a few before you plunk down$$$$$$$$$$$$$!!! He's walking away because he's pushing less boat with equal power.:propeller: Mop is that in brackish water:wink:? I'm thinking + a couple in 100% salinity :crossfing:

Donzi_Dude
06-02-2013, 08:12 AM
He's walking away because he's pushing less boat with equal power.:propeller: Mop is that in brackish water:wink:? I'm thinking + a couple in 100% salinity :crossfing:

the slip numbers dont change, just the lift.

joseph m. hahnl
06-02-2013, 08:48 AM
IMO I do not think a 23 will be enough, I have 22C with a 383 running a 23" 4B and spin it to 5050 getting 65.5. John a local buddy is running a 24" 4B on his 18 not sure of his top end but the boat hauls away from my 65.5 loafer.

Incidentally my going from a 23" 3B Merc cleaver to the current 23" 4B netted me almost 1mph, there is a lot more to this propping thing than many realize. Just throwing out numbers don't work, you need to borrow a few before you plunk down$$$$$$$$$$$$$!!! He's walking away because he's pushing less boat with equal power.:propeller: Mop is that in brackish water:wink:? I'm thinking + a couple in 100% salinity :crossfing:

MOP
06-02-2013, 09:18 AM
I run in salt, the prop is a 4B Turbo Ultima that was originally an Yamaha outboard wheel. I bought it off the net it was billed as a Merc wheel, I had it figured might as well try it. I had to machine a new thrust washer, which turned to be a great move.

Bobby D
06-03-2013, 09:01 AM
I have a Turbo Vector with the same issue (nut bottoms out before prop is tight) what dimensions were used to fabricate the new washer?

patricke
06-03-2013, 10:35 AM
----You havent told us where you ended up buying from. I for one am interested.......Bill S


I was torn as to what do do fot sourcing the new motor as i had discussed here in past posts. I called several places you all recommended and was very close to going with Michiganmotorz. Very helpful and knowledgeable people over there. I especially liked that i wouldnt have to worry about sales tax! So i told my mechanic i would be going that route and he got kinda pissy. He said that would be comparable to going to a sandwich shop and bringing your own meat lmao. S i told him he had to match price and he did...oh well, i wanted to keep good form with this guy obviously somthats how we did it. Due to the fact that he is an authorized mercruiser guy i was able to get the extra two yrs of warranty free of charge from Mercruiser. I confirmed this with them.


i am going to trim down that pickup asap.....it comes down where the hull is onviously angled, so do i trim this thing following the contour of the hull or just cut it straight?