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View Full Version : Riddle me this Leak Man!!!



biggiefl
03-25-2013, 03:28 PM
Ok as many here know I have had a leak in my 22 for about a year. This is what I have done so far:

1) Siliconed the entire transom assembly on exterior of hull---Nope

2) Replaced the flappers in the y-pipe(one was bent) with new style rubber and replaced hoses and clamps--Nada

3) Checked all the fasteners I could get a wrench on to snug up---Nil

4) Ran boat on muffs for 1/2 hour at idle and between 1500 with exhaust closed and open with plug in--Notta drop

5) Ran it for 2 hours at speed and at slow speed. Water in bilge was there and cold, not hot.

Now she only leaks a gallon or 3 the entire day of running, bilge pump never comes on nor can it pick it up usually as the level is too low. It is not my speedo and my trim tabs look fine, as does the transom assembly but i siliconed it anyway to rule it out....which I think it did. My bellows, etc are fine, and no water damage to bearing or a drop of water inside when checked. What else can it be besides a y-pipe gasket that requires moving or removing the engine to fix? The last thing I plan on doing is putting the boat in at the ramp with a 12 pack and just let it sit w/o running engine for an hour or 2 and seeing what is inside. But without being able to see back there it has to be one of a couple things but my eye is on the y-pipe $5 gasket. i have to have this fixed by the ditch run or I am sunk...literally.

mattyboy
03-25-2013, 03:44 PM
Alex
I'll go with what is a leaky/cracked pitot tube for the speedometer for 100

BUIZILLA
03-25-2013, 03:57 PM
water inlet flange inside the transom? but that would drip on the coupler and sling it... or the salt water pump housing has a crack, especially if it's plastic..

f_inscreenname
03-25-2013, 05:30 PM
If its cold the motor is out. Water pick up, up to the oil cooler.

Conquistador_del_mar
03-25-2013, 05:47 PM
Alex
I'll go with what is a leaky/cracked pitot tube for the speedometer for 100

+1 for the same 100. Oh, if you got it right I don't get to answer - lol. It sounds like one of those leaks that take two people - one to drive and one to look for the leak. Bill

cgbird
03-25-2013, 06:01 PM
any water around the tiller arm when sitting in the water? I have seen the seal go bad and let water in. Also when you replaced your flappers was the rod still there for the flapper? on one boat I worked on the rod made it down into the y pipe and wore a hole through it. good luck and hopefully you find your leak.

XMETAL
03-25-2013, 06:22 PM
How about a Bellows?

Just Say N20
03-25-2013, 06:38 PM
I'd go with bellows too. They develop a small hairline crack, and depending on the position of the outdrive, it will leak a little or a lot.

joseph m. hahnl
03-25-2013, 06:55 PM
http://www.bat-mania.co.uk/guides/images/riddlepic.gif?



Could be a hole in a hole ?


cold water hose is leaking

gcarter
03-25-2013, 06:56 PM
Nick, bellows would be an obvious guess. The aluminum anode bolts in the bottom of some Bravo gimbal housings. The hydraulic manifold in the bottom of the gimbal housing. And last, but very possible, corrosion in the side(s) of the gimbal housing. This happens more often than it should because of insufficient paint on the casting and salt water. I had to correct this on both the Minx and the Testa Rossa. In the case of the Minx, two, or so, of the studs that reach through the transom are installed in open holes that extend through the casting. Water will work through the stud threads and drip inside which starts corrosion on the inside of the housing.

Ghost
03-25-2013, 08:38 PM
I suppose one test would be to splash it and let it sit, without running the motor.

mattyboy
03-25-2013, 10:17 PM
Yes then check if no water then run motor at the dock check if still no water go for a trip off plane then check again

duckhunter
03-25-2013, 10:29 PM
I'd go with bellows too. They develop a small hairline crack, and depending on the position of the outdrive, it will leak a little or a lot.

I'll third that. Shift or drive shaft bellows can definitely look ok and still be compromised. If they haven't been changed in a while I would throw on a whole transom seal kit (all bellows, water hose, etc) for preventive maintenance, but not until you ID the leak.

Frustrating stuff!

ETA - the y pipe gasket would be a bad deal, a ton of labor for a $5 part.

biggiefl
03-25-2013, 10:42 PM
OK....speedo I don't think so since it is VERY accurate. A day of driving "might" fill up the bilge but my speedo would read low. Second...I agree on the y-pipe and if yes I have to pull or move the engine to fix the $5 gasket I WILL replace the whole transom assembly gasket, bellows, and make it like new, etc. Once I am committed, I might as well do it all. Just hoping somebody here has an epiphany and saves me some time & $$$. I don't want to skimp and find out I rotted out my transom by being a dumb a$$.

Pismo
03-26-2013, 07:26 AM
Transom assem gasket would be low on the list. Other things go bad before that.

Morgan's Cloud
03-26-2013, 07:43 AM
any water around the tiller arm when sitting in the water? I have seen the seal go bad and let water in.

I've suggested this before too , and I'm sticking with it seeing all the stuff you've already checked.

Also, if it was a bellows (drive is the only one that matters here) after all this time wouldn't the U-joint be having problems ?

(George , yep , that moderator problem is getting on my nerves too)

VetteLT193
03-26-2013, 08:20 AM
tabs are pretty easy to loosen and re-seal with a buddy. If they are just a bit loose / not perfectly sealed they will slowly trickle water in.

Outside of that... the shift cable bellows is a pretty flimsy piece after it gets a bit old. It's really easy to not see a tiny hole in that one or the rest of the crap in that area. It's also a total PITA to change it all but it's the likely problem. Have you changed out the bellows since buying the boat?

Pismo
03-26-2013, 08:30 AM
UJoints don't mind water so much but the gimbal bearing would start to howl fairly quickly.

biggiefl
03-26-2013, 11:31 AM
Removed the drive and filled bellows with water up to the gimbal, nothing leaked out. Bearing is not howling either and would be by now. I am going to drop it in the water with a remote camera and mirror and see if I can find anything.

"Transom assem gasket would be low on the list. Other things go bad before that."

Pismo....enlighten me please.

Pismo
03-26-2013, 11:53 AM
Removed the drive and filled bellows with water up to the gimbal, nothing leaked out. Bearing is not howling either and would be by now. I am going to drop it in the water with a remote camera and mirror and see if I can find anything.

"Transom assem gasket would be low on the list. Other things go bad before that."

Pismo....enlighten me please.

I did not mean to imply anything specific, just that bellows, steering pin, etc seems to leak more commonly that the TA gasket. I would worry about that last.

LuauLounge
03-26-2013, 12:10 PM
Remove and re-silicone the transom drain plug flange.

duckhunter
03-26-2013, 12:12 PM
I did not mean to imply anything specific, just that bellows, steering pin, etc seems to leak more commonly that the TA gasket. I would worry about that last.

Yeah roger. When I mentioned "transom seal kit" I was referring to this guy:
75138

Not the actual bellhousing to transom gasket.

Sounds like your driveshaft bellows is ok, but shift bellows could definitely be the culprit, or the water intake hose.

Conquistador_del_mar
03-26-2013, 12:53 PM
I still believe that the fastest way to determine where your leak is originating is to get someone to drive while you look for the leak - it will show itself fairly quickly at the rate you are taking on water. If you take off the engine cover the job will be much easier. Bill

mattyboy
03-26-2013, 01:35 PM
I had a similar issue water in the bilge

mine was the speedo tube took me a while to figure out that it only took on water when under way.

that is why I suggested letting it just sit in the water , check if no water then sit in the water and run tied up then check no water then run at different speeds and check .

there are a lot of places and things that can let water into the boat. you need to eliminate things that let water in just sitting,or are forced in by the motor running , or forced in by running underway.

BUIZILLA
03-26-2013, 01:38 PM
you could fill the bilge with water and see if it leaks externally.. :biggrin:

Conquistador_del_mar
03-26-2013, 02:06 PM
you could fill the bilge with water and see if it leaks externally.. :biggrin:

Over the years I have witnessed guys trying this method - :bonk:

Ghost
03-26-2013, 03:08 PM
you could fill the bilge with water and see if it leaks externally.. :biggrin:

Just missed St. Patty's...could have taken it to Chicago and seen where the green dye came in.

EDIT: Don't know why this posted three times. Weird. I just deleted two of them, to confuse anyone who sees George's note. ;)

gcarter
03-26-2013, 03:28 PM
OK, I'll try this again......
The hydraulic manifold bolted to the bottom of the gimbal housing can leak.
Certain through studs in the gimbal housing are threaded through the casting. Water can work through the threads and drip on the inside of the casting where it will corrode through the thin housing casting where there's little paint. You'll never see this, but it'll leak.

BUIZILLA
03-26-2013, 04:18 PM
Over the years I have witnessed guys trying this method - :bonk: betcha they found the leak though... :wink:

katanna
03-26-2013, 06:41 PM
Bellows for the shift cable can leak and not show when sitting. If it bothers you that much drill a hole to let the water out. :hyper:

biggiefl
03-26-2013, 10:13 PM
"I had a similar issue water in the bilge

mine was the speedo tube took me a while to figure out that it only took on water when under way.

that is why I suggested letting it just sit in the water , check if no water then sit in the water and run tied up then check no water then run at different speeds and check .

there are a lot of places and things that can let water into the boat. you need to eliminate things that let water in just sitting,or are forced in by the motor running , or forced in by running underway."

I agree....if "you" read my first post it would have ruled out some of the threads. I am going to let it sit at the ramp for a few hours and see if it leaks. If clean...will proceed with other suggestions. This is not my first rodeo and I do have a great friend/mechanic that has been working on this....we need ideas to look at no matter how obscure. I do not personally think it is the transom assembly nor is it the raw water tube or bellows. I believe it is much more simple and hence my shout out to the experts.

The water coming in is fresh...not from the engine. It does not matter if on plne or at slow speed I"think". I can crimp the speedo tube but again I doubt that. I am personally still thinking the y-pipe gasket. If I do let it it sit for a few hours w/o running engine and I get water in.....suggestions?

Thanks for the suggestions!!!

Keep them coming as one might find the leak.

biggiefl
03-26-2013, 10:23 PM
"Bellows for the shift cable can leak and not show when sitting"

Ya know I am thinking of just doing it to 1) rule it out 2) just to be sure and it is good for another 10 years & cheaper than pulling the engine.

joseph m. hahnl
03-27-2013, 05:48 PM
I'll still put my money on a hose clamp in the cold water hose. A boat doesn't leak while underway. If it is fills with water at speed , you can rule out leaky screw in the transom.That's a raw water cooled boat? I'll bet yah the hose clamp/s on the water pump need tightening


Ps: check the block drain plugs too!!!:p

biggiefl
03-27-2013, 11:33 PM
Sorry but raw water from waterpump/hoses would have leaked into the bildge when running on the muffs for 40mins.Raw water pickup from outdrive, freeze plugs,etc would have dripped into the bildge when running on muffs. I need new ideas about sitting or underway leaks. I agree with you that it should not leak underway...drain plug, transom assembly, belows/cable should be free and clear at speed as you are on plane....hence why I think y-pipe. Think about a 22 on plane...nothing would bring water on as the hull is on top of the water. Something is being FORCED in or it only happens when boat is at displacement speeds. If nothing comes in on the muffs....can't be engine related. C'mon guys.....thinkng caps here please.

katanna
03-28-2013, 07:18 AM
Running it on the muffs is not the same as running it under load. You will build more pressure when running hard. My Magnum Maltese would run all day under muffs, but would blow the circulating hose apart when running hard until I put a pressure relief valve on both motors.
The bellows for the shift and drive shaft generally wont leak on he muffs. Possible they wont leak when sitting in the water. But when you start moving even at low speed docking you are stretching them from side to side and adding water pressure. Too many people make the mistake of storing the boat with the drive up which stretches the boots and causes them to crack and rot. When you put the drive down the pressure on the now compressed bellows will mask a leak when sitting. I think you stated you are only getting a gallon and a half.
The only way to tell for sure is to have someone watch it while running at low and then planing speed if necessary.
Steve

BUIZILLA
03-28-2013, 07:44 AM
based on your statements that it's COLD water, I rule out the y-pipes...

besides, at rest, the bottom of the Y is under water anyway.. any leaks at the top of the Y would be HOT water...

you would be surprised how much water pressure is created up the drive to the pump, and from the pump to the cooler under way, at elevated rpm's.... 35#-65# wouldn't be unusual...

VetteLT193
03-28-2013, 07:56 AM
when you drop it in at the ramp also try turning the wheel lock to lock. leave it all the way right for a bit, then leave it all the way left. trim up / trim down too. If the leak is the shift bellows or otherwise that should expose it.

It may be worth totally drying out the inside of the hull and line it with blue shop paper towels. they show water well so it may help track down if there is a very small leak from one of the tabs or someplace else.

gcarter
03-28-2013, 12:57 PM
A relief valve is a good idea.
I included one.

biggiefl
03-28-2013, 03:22 PM
Great idea with the shop towels.

biggiefl
04-03-2013, 12:39 PM
Pulling the motor today. Looks like she is leaking from the Y-pipe. Hope it is just from an over heat or age and y-pipe gasket is the only culprit. Will yank engine then drop it in at the ramp and pinpoint the leak. Thinking of maybe painting the engine red since it is out, what is a good color to match our hulls? I tried the Ford red on my Baja but it kinda looked orange.

Morgan's Cloud
04-03-2013, 01:39 PM
Pulling the motor today. Looks like she is leaking from the Y-pipe. Hope it is just from an over heat or age and y-pipe gasket is the only culprit. .

'Looks like' still doesn't sound very convincing . If you KNEW now that it was the Y-pipe then , and only then, could you say that the Y-pipe gasket 'is the only culprit'

I still strongly advise that when you get the engine out you get someone in the boat with a good flash light inspecting the tiller shaft bearing/seal while on the outside someone else is soaking the area with a high pressure water jet.

I know of two instances in the past where this was the last thing that was checked , and after great expense to boot , was the problem .

gcarter
04-03-2013, 02:29 PM
Also, corrosion through the gimbal housing casting!!!!!!!!!!
Don't miss this opportunity to look.

Tidbart
04-03-2013, 02:42 PM
Nick,

something that might help. Water detection paste. There is a paste you can put on areas of the inside of the boat that will turn purple when water hits it. You can probably gets some at your local plumbing supply house.

I used to use it on the end of the fuel level sticks that we used to check the gas in our underground tanks. It would tell if there was water in the tank, and how much. Simple and effective.

Of course, your leak(s) may be obvious.

B

VetteLT193
04-03-2013, 03:07 PM
Also, corrosion through the gimbal housing casting!!!!!!!!!!
Don't miss this opportunity to look.

or behind the sticker at the top of the drive.

gcarter
04-03-2013, 05:08 PM
or behind the sticker at the top of the drive.


Bingo!

biggiefl
04-03-2013, 09:50 PM
We talked about the sticker thing today,highly doubt that as it is a fresh water boat and it leaked more than that. Monday when I dropped her in it leaked pretty bad, not like before as I had her up to the bottom of the exhaust tips, not level inwater. It is NOT the gimble or shift boot but somehwere in the center behind the y-pipe. Engine was NOT running. 15 mins and I had a gal or so in the bildge which last week took 2 hours under way. Exhaust is out and motor mount bolts are out. Gonna hoist her out soon and drop back in the water without engine & teathered to trailer. We'll find it then....no looking back now as engine is basically out. I of course will post where it comes from...could be a good pole for somebody to post. Winner gets my old gaskets.

katanna
04-03-2013, 10:00 PM
Trim wires?

Morgan's Cloud
04-04-2013, 07:39 AM
Gonna hoist her out soon and drop back in the water without engine & teathered to trailer.

Just find a friend who weighs 900lb to stand in the engine room and be the observer.:D

CHACHI
04-04-2013, 01:20 PM
Make sure you put some weight back in the boat or it will be sitting too high..
Ken

biggiefl
04-04-2013, 01:44 PM
I can't put 900lbs of weight in her and hence why she will be teathered to the trailer when it gets dunked. If it is tied to the trailer, it can't float unless it floats the trailer which I doubt with my ass back there.

MOP
04-04-2013, 03:39 PM
If your trailer is a dual axle aluminum it will float, mine does and can be a pain at times.

biggiefl
04-04-2013, 11:11 PM
I have floated triples, not duals. We'll see!!!!

BUIZILLA
04-05-2013, 08:27 AM
if the engine is out, tilt the bow up, and fill it with water.....................

joseph m. hahnl
04-05-2013, 09:17 AM
Pulling the motor today. Looks like she is leaking from the Y-pipe. Hope it is just from an over heat or age and y-pipe gasket is the only culprit. Will yank engine then drop it in at the ramp and pinpoint the leak. Thinking of maybe painting the engine red since it is out, what is a good color to match our hulls? I tried the Ford red on my Baja but it kinda looked orange.




http://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4748602687095830&pid=1.7


Ford Red On a Chevy. You might have just as well, wiped dog poop on it. Then again it was a Baja:rofl:


Note* " to self " All the new Donzi's are Baja's. OH the humility :doh:

BUIZILLA
04-05-2013, 10:07 AM
welp, there is Buick RED

or International Harvestor RED

Pismo
04-07-2013, 07:57 PM
Fountain bought/merged with Baja before the boat world came to an end so are Donzis now really Bajas or Fountains? They are going to be built at the Fountain factory is NC so..who knows. I worry about quality.

biggiefl
04-08-2013, 12:15 PM
Well all you geniuses can retire....transom seal. Everything is out, just a hole back there. Cleaning up the bildge today and reassembly time. Engine is going to remain black.

JayZ
04-08-2013, 12:58 PM
Well all you geniuses can retire....transom seal. Everything is out, just a hole back there. Cleaning up the bildge today and reassembly time. Engine is going to remain black.


--Come on be brave. Paint the engine to match the stripe or something.

biggiefl
04-08-2013, 01:04 PM
Stripe down the deck has black pinstriping. Engine has red decals...it all flows.

Ghost
04-08-2013, 05:09 PM
Now I'm wondering if anyone's ever put a Donzi classic stripe down the middle of the motor...

Pismo
04-08-2013, 05:48 PM
Now I'm wondering if anyone's ever put a Donzi classic stripe down the middle of the motor...

That would be great..

mattyboy
04-08-2013, 05:54 PM
I put stripes on my exhaust risers

biggiefl
04-09-2013, 10:46 AM
"Now I'm wondering if anyone's ever put a Donzi classic stripe down the middle of the motor..."

Yes...it is called painting your intake manifold.

biggiefl
04-28-2013, 01:00 AM
Test drive yesterday...not a friggin drop in the bildge. Tickled pink and I aint gonna sink!!! See you on Friday at FMB.

joseph m. hahnl
04-28-2013, 08:12 AM
Yeah!!!!!!!:hyper:



http://s0.geograph.org.uk/photos/00/09/000931_4bef76d0.jpg

duckhunter
04-28-2013, 10:17 AM
Test drive yesterday...not a friggin drop in the bildge. Tickled pink and I aint gonna sink!!! See you on Friday at FMB.

AWESOME!! Great feeling to have something work out like that. Have a good trip! :beer: