More ponies for the family boat

[duckhunter]

So Santa was good to me this year and I have a bunch of shiny new parts for the LXR. This is a nice change from last year, which I spent catching up on a decade of deferred maintenance by the previous owner. I documented most of that in this thread:
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?67047-Adventures-in-deferred-maintenance (http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?67047-Adventures-in-deferred-maintenance&highlight=deferred)

To recap, I ended up installing a new SEI outdrive, gimbal bearing, drive shower, cap/rotor/wires/plugs, and GLM aluminum manifolds & risers. Just for fun added a set of 4" Corsa exhaust diverters. The boat sounds pretty good to me (ie obnoxious to my wife) and I think that this is about the least restrictive I can get without going to a super high dollar marine exhaust (which I won't do).

Once all of that was complete I could get some baseline performance numbers for the boat:

Boat - 1998 Donzi 21 LXR bowrider
Weight - approx 3600 wet
LOA - 21', single step, 8' beam
Power - Merc 5.7 Vortec 2bbl 250hp. Same roller cam & internals as the 300+ hp 350MPI.
Drive - SEI 116 (Merc Alpha Gen 2), 1.47 gears, Simrek drive shower
Prop - Merc Vengeance 19P
WOT - 51.3 GPS @4400

Tried every possible combination of trim. Theoretically it shouldn't take much trim with the step as it should run fairly flat/level once the hull is aired out. Ended up settling on 1/3 - 1/4 trim per the gauge as the sweet spot with this setup. Gives 4-5 mph over neutral trim. Any higher and it blows out.
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For any law enforcement professionals perusing this corner of the internet, that is clearly a can of diet Sprite sitting in the cupholder. No beers were harmed in the posting of this thread.

A couple of issues:

1. Boat is starving for air and fuel above 3.5k rpm. Sounds like a shop vac under the hatch - the 2bbl and tiny intake and flame arrestor are acting like a NASCAR restrictor plate. This is a roller cam vortec SBC and should want to wind up a little more.

2. Prop. The Vengeance is a big round elephant eared budget SS prop. It has enough rake that it wants to lift the bow, which is not what this hull needs. Also tends to ventilate/cavitate quite a bit at takeoff and at higher speeds. Not optimum for a stepped hull. See pic below - this is WOT with 4 people and a bunch of gear, but you can definitely see that the stern is digging in a little too much and not taking full advantage of the step.
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The fix for issue #1 is some extra power. I have an Edelbrock Performer RPM high-rise dual-plane intake, a 1" phenolic carb spacer, a big stinking flame arrestor, and an Edelbrock 1409 600cfm 4bbl and all the required plumbing in the shop (thanks Mrs. DH!!). I debated going to a 750 vacuum carb based on some discussions on here, but finally settled on the 600 per Randy "BigGrizzly" C. He recommended the 600 for small blocks and ran them on his own fleet, so that was good enough for me.

There is a place online that sells a kit with the same parts I bought and dyno'd the '98-99 Vortec motor at 307hp after the carb & intake swap. I pieced it together mostly from Jegs and CP Performance and came in $100 cheaper than the kit.

For issue #2 I am tracking down a 22P Bravo 1 4-blade prop. This was the stock prop from the factory for the Z22 (same hull) and small block 22ZX (similar hull). This prop should provide good stern lift at WOT and excellent mid-range cruise. Also better planing and handling vs. the 3-blade. If the B1 falls through I might take a look at Hydromotive. Bottom line, I want to get the hull running flat and utilize the step to maximum advantage.

I guess the purpose for this thread is to document the experiment and look for any guidance you guys might have. Not many of these boats out there but maybe someone has attempted the same thing on a similar hull. Also curious to hear about any tuning advice from the collective audience. I have a TB V ignition with the knock sensor and a rev limiter; I need to check the module to see how much advance it has and what RPM the limiter will give me. I'd love to get this thing to turn 4800 on the pins.

More to follow once I get under the hatch. dh

[Just Say N20]

For any law enforcement professionals perusing this corner of the internet, that is clearly a can of diet Sprite sitting in the cupholder. No beers were harmed in the posting of this thread.

I love it! :D

[duckhunter]

Alright, I ran my numbers through half a dozen prop slip calculators and kept coming up with ridiculously low numbers - 5-7%. The boat definitely doesn't "feel" like it is performing up to par with the current prop, so I am thinking either I goofed on one of the numbers or my tach is way off. Or maybe the POS elephant ear prop is just too much blade area with the stern dragging in the water, combined with a lack of horsepower. Or all of the above...

Going to throw on the intake and carb regardless and do a better job collecting data and run the numbers again with the stock prop. I have a shop tach that I can hook up and double check my dash gauge.

I still believe my theory is fairly sound, ie I need to get the stern up to take advantage of the step and reduce wetted surface. The B1 will do a better job of lifting the stern and running in the subsequent aerated water than a 3 blade. It was the factory recommended prop for these small single-stepped boats 15 years ago, maybe there is something better out there now?

It would be sweet to hit 60 in this thing somewhere other than on the trailer. If nothing else I will have some bling under the hatch and still be able to scare the snot out of my daughter by hitting the exhaust cutouts while she's on the tube...

[VetteLT193]

For prop slip, one thing to keep in mind is props with cup add pitch in a way. The rule of thumb is to add an inch on a cupped prop. For example a standard mirage 25 pitch would measure at 25 on a slip calculator while a 25 mirage plus should be entered in at 26. I'm not sure if this factors for you or not just posting in case it does

[VetteLT193]

As far as stern lift vs bow lift.... Personally I have not run your hull but on my 28,for top end, I don't think I could get too much bow lift out of the props. Ever. As your stern lifts the bow will drop and to be quite blunt your bow is very wet in that pic. The only way stern lift helps is if you can carry the bow or if the net result is a less wet hull which is unlikely for top end.

[duckhunter]

Vette,

I really appreciate the input on running angle. I'm not describing things the right way.

It was clear watching some bigger stepped hull boats run that they were really level in attitude vs. a straight deep v, which carried the nose a lot more. My hull has a lot less surface area to work with than a 27 or 28+, so maybe the effect won't be quite as pronounced.

Bottom line, after driving the boat for a year it has never seemed to really break the hull free and start hauling ass. I realize that it won't be as exaggerated as a bass boat getting up on the pad (which you can really feel seat of the pants), but she just feels like she is dragging too much hull at WOT. Had some buddies drive it to confirm my numbers as well.

Since I can't trim the drive very far past neutral at all without the current prop blowing out, that might be part of the issue. If the 4 blade gives better "traction" I would hopefully be able to add positive trim and carry the bow higher while still adding a little lift on the stern.

An extra 40 horse can't hurt anything, so I'm gonna start there and see what happens.

[duckhunter]

Here's another running shot to maybe help folks decipher what is going on. Seems like the stern is higher in this one, so maybe the previous pic just made my ass look fat. These shots were both WFO or close to it if I was actually passing someone.

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[Ghost]

Couple things come to mind. Totally concur with your approach of trying the same prop with the extra power.

I spreadsheeted your numbers and got ludicrously low slip as well (like, 4.5%). And if other things stayed the same and you were able to reach 4800RPM, I show that would be 56.1 MPH.

If your slip is really that low, like what Vette mentioned as a possibility, I'd think your current prop has some real cup to it. Then again, I'm not as familiar with slip numbers for stepped hulls, which I would think should be lower than the Classic Vs.

Somehow, my gut tells me 22 inches will be too much pitch, but maybe not. Just my hunch. No matter what, you're shorting yourself on HP if you don't get your RPM up into the 4800ish range, right? Very interested to hear what she turns with the extra juice as the next data point.

I DO wonder about the prop blowing out, and what other step-hull folks know about what amount of trim should see that happen with a given prop. That part makes me scratch my head. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

Last, I wonder if there is a magic cusp in the speed curve where the boat climbs out a bit more and takes off. For instance, clearly the step effect doesn't do any good at 11 kts. Is there some point slightly out of reach where a big change kicks in? Hmmm...

[BUIZILLA]

personally. i'm not too sure these prop slip calculators have a clue what a 4 blade does..

and doesn't.

[MOP]

I hate to being a wet blanket, 40hp may get you to around 55 but well short of 60. It is a tough upward sliding scale when trying to gain MPH on the water.

[Ghost]

personally. i'm not too sure these prop slip calculators have a clue what a 4 blade does..

and doesn't.

I don't know squat about props. What's a 4-blade do? (I imagine it gives more solid bite on the water which makes for less slip, giving better holeshot and mid-range grab, at perhaps the cost of a little top-end. But I'm TOTALLY making that up just from thinking about it, not basing it on experience of any kind.) Curious what the reality is.

[duckhunter]

So in theory the 4 blade should work well on a stepped hull because it will bite better in the "dirty" aerated water coming off the stern. The step acts like a high x-dimension on a regular deep v hull.

The current prop probably has way more cup and blade area than I need. Merc markets it as a budget entry level SS prop.

The B1 is supposed to run a little smaller than the advertised pitch, so I think the 22P will be closer to a 21. The 22zx and Z22 with small blocks came with 24P B1s from the factory, so I hope to get the 4800 turns out of mine with the 22.

[RockyS18]

Cool project. I'm no expert on the 21LXR, but if I had to take an educated guess I think you'll be topping out a 56ish, a little short of the 60 you're looking for.

[VetteLT193]

A couple more thoughts.

When you do the intake and carb you'll basically convert the engine to the carbed Magnum version of the 350 which runs at a higher RPM. I'd shoot for 200-400 more RPM on top. Adding pitch and adding RPM don't go together. So I'd do the power adder stuff, try the prop you have, and reset.

With the 4 blades on my boat... Everything is better except top end. At top end the stern is too light. Yes, I can trim more ( a LOT more) and trim greatly impacts the angle of the boat at cruise which makes that more efficient. However if I was searching for top end I would either need Mirage Pluses or Bravos with bow lift in mind (add cup).

I tried both Bravo 1 and Hydromotive Q IV. The Hydros are too stern lifty. On my hull the Bravos "measuring small" rule of thumb is not true. They hold the water so much better on my boat they measure to spec. I have tried 24 and 26 inch bravos and they both run the same top end (Different RPMs). Cruise is slower on the 24's, planing is slower on the 26's. The 24's turn my boat into a freakin' ski boat, turn on a dime and plane quick. 26's turn it into a cruising machine.

For your boat... don't forget prop diameter is another factor. The vengeance is smaller in diameter than the M+. My gut says for top end you'll end up with a 19" Mirage Plus.

[duckhunter]

I appreciate all of the input. Just got back from New Years festivities at Lake Oconee and my liver hurts but I have a lot of shiny speed parts sitting in the shop.

Definitely going to get a good baseline with the new parts and the old prop to see what happens. Also picked up a brand new B1 for $350 on the bay, I figure I can flip it without too much heartache if it's too much prop for the boat.

Pictures forthcoming of new intake/carb/flame arrestor vs. the low-rise 2bbl factory setup. It is pretty dramatic. Thinking about clear-coating the new intake before installation to keep it looking good.

[duckhunter]

Quick update on this ongoing project. Still haven't made any meaningful progress on the four barrel conversion, but getting closer. I am getting ready to re-baseline my numbers with stock power on both props (19P 3 blade Vengeance and 22P 4 blade B1) as soon as I get the drive back on and the weather cooperates. Going to use a shop tach and better GPS this time.

I did get some maintenance done over the winter:

- All new exhaust / driveshaft / shift bellows. The ones that came off appeared to be the originals from 1998. :eek:
- New lower shift cable. Old one was shot and it was getting tough to shift.
- New gimbal bearing. Had the dealer throw one in when I bought the boat and they did a poor job. Really banged up the bearing installing it. Found a new mechanic that seems to be great.
- Aligned bearing & coupler.
- Pair of new Interstate 1000 CCA marine batteries.
- New sacrificial anodes.
- Built a rolling drive stand so I don't give myself a hernia on the drive installation.

Also picked up a Thunderbolt V ignition module from a HP500 to lose the stock rev limiter. It has 20deg of advance built in by 3k, so I'm going to shoot for 10-12 initial and 30-32 all-in. The Vortec heads are apparently picky about too much timing. I know about grounding the purple/yellow wire to get the TB V in base timing mode.

Going to install a remote oil filter mount and a 2qt filter to add some capacity, hopefully lower temps a little, and make oil changes easier. Haven't decided on an oil cooler yet, but I will probably mount a temp gauge to the filter mount to help monitor it and see if it is necessary. Last summer oil pan temps were in the 240-250 range after a hard run, tested via IR temp gun. This is about the max I am comfortable with, but I'm afraid a cooler might not allow the oil to heat up enough to burn off condensation. Water temp never gets above 175 and normally hovers around 165 (with a 160 tstat).

To add some intrigue on the prop testing, I noticed that I have a shallow-v pad about 12" wide on the keel of the boat from the step all the way to the transom. So it is a 21deg, single stepped hull with a pad. Pretty complex for a bowrider... I think some of the ZXs (26/27/28) were running twin steps and a pad. I will hang some pictures on here at some point.

More to follow, just trying to keep all of this updated on one place.

[smokediver]

I think the vortecs can safely advance to 30 but after that u are on your own.

[duckhunter]

Holy smokes, can't believe my post finally showed up (from 25 Feb). Guess that means I got approval from a mod!! :wavey:

No progress was made in the previous two weeks due to weather, so no updates. Going to be nice this weekend so I am going to stock the beer fridge and get hot getting her ready to baseline.


I think the vortecs can safely advance to 30 but after that u are on your own.

Thanks, definitely starting with 30 total and see how she does. Not much point in running the timing right on the ragged edge of disaster, especially with occasional marina fuel in the tank.

[duckhunter]

Finally had nice weather so the Donzi got to see the light of day for the first time since Nov. Time to hang the drive...

74880
Here she is coming out of the shop.

74881
And the homemade drive stand. Norm Abrams I'm not, but this made it a heck of a lot easier than last year. My wife probably appreciated it more than me!

[duckhunter]

Got the drive buttoned up other than the drive shower. Now it's time for the fun part - hanging shiny new stuff under the hatch...

Here is the engine compartment as purchased - stock 250hp Merc motor is buried in there somewhere under the bimini and between the big starboard dividers.
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And here it is at the end of last summer. Moved the bimini, removed the dividers to give access for maintenance, new risers & manifolds, Corsa diverters, monster stock flame arrestor:
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Next up, new parts! :propeller:

[duckhunter]

Stuff has been piling up in the shop since Christmas. I think I have everything except the new remote oil filter setup at this point.

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Edelbrock Performer RPM Vortec intake, 1409 600cfm marine carb, FP gauge, flame arrestor, misc plumbing:
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And a comparison of the props (19P Vengeance and 22P B1):

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The B1 was a NIB Merc dealer demo prop I found on ebay. It was painted in the demo smurf blue, so I stripped it over the winter and hit it with the buffer & some flitz. I hope it will work well with this hull in combination with the extra power.

So more to follow, going to start pulling stuff out from under the hatch and cleaning it up in preparation for the new stuff.

[Conquistador_del_mar]

Hi Duck,
Looking good. Don't we all love new parts - :yes:. I hope you can swing the 22P Bravo prop. Bill

[duckhunter]

Hi Duck,
Looking good. Don't we all love new parts - :yes:. I hope you can swing the 22P Bravo prop. Bill

Bill,

You and me both brother! Since this was the factory prop with the Z22 and 22ZX with the same hull and small block I am hopeful...

Made good progress today. No drama pulling hardware off the motor like last winter doing the manifolds, which was a nightmare.

Long block looks super clean. No sludge and only a little rust in the water passages. Will check valve lash and do a little cleaning while I'm in here and call it good:

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[duckhunter]

So here's the comparison between stock 2bbl and the new 4bbl setup. It is more dramatic in person...

Stock 470? cfm Merc 2bbl vs. 600cfm Edelbrock:

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And stock low-rise cast iron intake vs. the Performer RPM:

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Dressed - seems like it should flow a little more air & fuel... :yes:

74893 74894

Need to fab up a bracket or two and break out the Krylon to get everything else up to par with the new bling.

[duckhunter]

Ok, just relooked at the long block pictures. With the thing blown apart this far it wouldn't take much to pull the heads... Some beehive springs & roller rockers would be sweet to go with a new roller cam.

The only thing holding me back is that it would be a nightmare to pull the cam with the motor in the boat (see picture way above for perspective). No way to do it without taking the majority of the back seat out. And R&R of the timing cover without dropping the oil pan is a recipe for a nasty bilge - probably a 50/50 shot of pulling it off without a big ass leak.

So I'm sticking with the stock valvetrain for now!

[duckhunter]

Final project last night was to fab up a bracket for the remote oil filter mount. Definitely not as fancy as the factory Merc mounts, but not $200 either. Made it out of some stainless that I had kicking around in the scrap bin. And to think, my wife gives me a hard time about keeping "junk." I would rather have it and not need it vs. the alternative!

Still have to clean up some rough edges & either paint or polish it after I drill some holes for the remote filter head. Overall pretty pleased with how it turned out.

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[Conquistador_del_mar]

Duck,
It all looks great! Nice fabrication work on the bracket, too. Bill

[Pat McPherson]

How about a little more lift while you're making upgrades.

[duckhunter]

How about a little more lift while you're making upgrades.

Thought about that quite a bit. The only way to do it would be to relieve the pushrod holes (would require pulling heads) or adding guideplates & hardened pushrods (again, pulling heads to install screw-in spring pedestals). I don't feel like getting that far into it just for the bigger rocker arms, and blowing the interior apart for a cam swap isn't in the cards this season.

Still contemplating some Comp Cams Magnum 1.5 rollers. Horsepower TV picked up 14hp on a SBC with just the rockers - said the stock stamped rockers were not very precise and varied from 1.4 - 1.5. Pretty sure I would have to relieve the oil control baffles inside the valve covers to clear the magnums though. It is a definite "maybe" at this point...

[VetteLT193]

can you use self aligning rockers? The 1.6's would be like adding a mild cam and if the self aligning would work that's an easy job.

[duckhunter]

can you use self aligning rockers? The 1.6's would be like adding a mild cam and if the self aligning would work that's an easy job.

Gotta do some more research. There are a lot of conflicting reports on running 1.6's without enlarging the pushrod holes. The narrow-body 1.5 comp roller rockers will supposedly fit with no modifications to the head or valve covers. The stock rockers are self-aligning and you can get the comp units in SA as well.

I'm thinking that the 1.5 rockers now would support a larger cam in the future... I really don't want to deal with pulling heads this season. That could quickly spiral out of control!

[VetteLT193]

Gotta do some more research. There are a lot of conflicting reports on running 1.6's without enlarging the pushrod holes. The narrow-body 1.5 comp roller rockers will supposedly fit with no modifications to the head or valve covers. The stock rockers are self-aligning and you can get the comp units in SA as well.

I'm thinking that the 1.5 rockers now would support a larger cam in the future... I really don't want to deal with pulling heads this season. That could quickly spiral out of control!

I'm no 6 Cyl expert but seeing as it's basically a 350 with 2 less cylinders I'd think you would have to at least cut off the drip tabs on the valve covers.

I have done the Crane self aligning on a 350 and they worked really well. more power and lower oil temperature. I did a mixed set... 1.6 intake, 1.5 exhaust. On certain engines the springs can be an issue and on the one I did the exhaust springs may/may not work with 1.6's so I opted for the mixed set to not chance it. No idea on springs for the 6 cyl... they may not be compatible either?

[duckhunter]

I'm no 6 Cyl expert but seeing as it's basically a 350 with 2 less cylinders I'd think you would have to at least cut off the drip tabs on the valve covers.

I have done the Crane self aligning on a 350 and they worked really well. more power and lower oil temperature. I did a mixed set... 1.6 intake, 1.5 exhaust. On certain engines the springs can be an issue and on the one I did the exhaust springs may/may not work with 1.6's so I opted for the mixed set to not chance it. No idea on springs for the 6 cyl... they may not be compatible either?

This is a SBC unless someone stole two of my cylinders when I wasn't looking! :embarasse You're right though, the later Vortec V6 is basically the same setup.

Every place I checked indicated that the 1.6s wouldn't work without some head work, so I'm going to skip it for now. If the heads ever do come off it will be a full meal deal and I'll get them machined for bigger springs & screw in studs along with a new cam. If I splurge now it will be for the 1.5 Comp narrow self-aligning rollers that will bolt in with no mods.

Trying to avoid the point of diminishing returns on this boat. At some point in the not so distant future the drive will become the weak link and there's no way I can justify a Bravo in this thing. The intake / carb was low-hanging fruit so I jumped on it.

At the end of the day I would have been money ahead to buy one of these turn-key 23 Warlocks with a BBC/Bravo, but it wouldn't have been a Donzi that my wife found...

[Pat McPherson]

Vette, he's got a 350.
You probably would want to pull the heads to rework for screw in studs and open up the push rod slots. May want to change the valve springs for at least new for the added lift. Sure a lot easier than changing a cam. My desk top dyno says it's worth about 25HP going from 1.5 stamped to 1.6 roller.

[duckhunter]

Pat - thanks. I typed a reply earlier today but it is apparently still floating around the reaches of the interweb somewhere.

Everything I read pointed to what you are recommending; there is no easy bolt-on solution. I'm just not sure I am ready to do that right now, so it might need to wait for next season...

For the machine work on the heads, new rocker studs, head bolts or studs, head gaskets, springs, retainers, rockers, pushrods, etc it is probably +/- $600 and another two or three weeks of downtime. From a wife perspective I am probably ahead of the curve to call it good for now... If I wait a season it will cost an extra $50 in exhaust/carb/intake gaskets that I would save now, which I can live with.

I did find a set of used Corsa clamp-on tips that I'm going to try. Some of the lakes we want to run this summer are not loud boat friendly and in this instance it's not good to be the squeaky wheel.

[duckhunter]

Made some progress over the last few days but nothing spectacular. Just catching up on the ankle biters!

- Made some carb studs to work with the spacer and throttle bracket. No off-the-shelf studs would work and look right.
- Cleaned up the oil filter bracket. Pretty proud of how this turned out.
- Fabbed a bracket to hold the solenoid and circuit breaker on the back of the manifold vs. on the throttle linkage.
- Test mounted the coffee can mufflers. We'll see how it sounds, but I suspect these will be coming off for the gorge run...
- Ran a ton of hardware through the bench grinder to clean it up.
- Prepped stuff for paint. Just need a couple days of good weather.

[joseph m. hahnl]

You should modify the 1 inch thermal spacer. One big hole or duel like the manifold. I think the 4 holes will defeat the purpose of a duel plane manifold.

You most likely will not be able to add a longer duration cam"later closing intake"
So the 1:6 Rockers would be a better choice and a lot less work. Probably just as effective as putting in a high lift cam.


Leaving the 1:5 on the exhaust will help with the reversion pulse. As the exhaust event will remain unchanged.The 1:6 on the intake event will happen at the same time but more opening and the valve is moving at a higher velosity.
The only thing is see about the mix set is the intake valve could open more than the exhaust valve. Which probably is not common practice .The cam in my pre- vortec 350 mag with 1:5 is .430I and .450E with a 1:6 on the intake would be .458. so it would open more by .008 than the exhaust.

Augh Ough .Reserch develepment . We need to know what this effect has:yes:
http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=74890&d=1362963487

ppp

[duckhunter]

Way behind schedule on this - life got in the way. Between work, travel, tree trimming, lawn mowing, honey do's, cheerleading, etc I have been covered up. Got to spend a week in the mountains in CO and a week at the beach in FL this month, so not all bad.

Outdrive is installed along with drive shower and a pair of Corsa mufflers I'm going to try on some of the lakes around here. Motor is still down to the long block and needs some love. Got a bunch of parts and hardware cleaned up and painted, still more to do. Also drilled & tapped the new carb for the PCV hose, took my time so I didn't turn the brand new Edelbrock into a paperweight.

Plan for this weekend is to grab a bunch of parts, tools, a cooler of beer, and a can of Copenhagen and hang out in the garage until I make some progress. The 80deg weather is killing me - could have been out on the river already!

[Inferno]

I still have the engine with 575 ponies and about 600 lbs of torque, that would fit in real easy. It's sitting in my shop collecting dust. Instead of being the last to the lunch spot you would be in the pack with the wife turning stark white hanging on.....

[duckhunter]

I still have the engine with 575 ponies and about 600 lbs of torque, that would fit in real easy. It's sitting in my shop collecting dust. Instead of being the last to the lunch spot you would be in the pack with the wife turning stark white hanging on.....

You're killing me! That thought has crossed my mind more than once since you put that thing on the market.:doh: If I sold the Jeep I could do your big block AND a bravo conversion...

Maybe after you get your 22 buttoned up we can do a monster sleeper bowrider project.:eek!:

[roadtrip se]

You're killing me! That thought has crossed my mind more than once since you put that thing on the market.:doh: If I sold the Jeep I could do your big block AND a bravo conversion...

Maybe after you get your 22 buttoned up we can do a monster sleeper bowrider project.:eek!:

Still plenty of time, before the Gorge Run! I intend to be there to watch the Inferno go by the Flowerpot like I just went into reverse at 90+. That bowrider needs some juice!

[duckhunter]

Still plenty of time, before the Gorge Run! I intend to be there to watch the Inferno go by the Flowerpot like I just went into reverse at 90+. That bowrider needs some juice!

I'll stick my hand up and volunteer to yank the Inferno and his 32P prop up onto plane just to see her take flight...

The bowrider should be one of the faster family boats on our little corner of Wheeler Lake this summer, but I have to figure something out for the pesky bass boat guys and their eggbeaters. They would poop bricks if I blew by them at 80! We'll see what the extra ponies do with the 4v conversion, and after that it might turn into an arms race. I know you're familiar with that concept! Stan's big block, a Bravo with a slick lower, and a big stinking prop - gotta be good for 80 in a 3200# stepped hull.

The whole crew is looking forward to having the Flowerpot fly by us in the gorge like we tossed out the anchor (again). Got a little something special for the bushwhackers this year!

[BUIZILLA]

don't worry ducky, stan's 2 speed trans will get it on plane just fine...

[duckhunter]

don't worry ducky, stan's 2 speed trans will get it on plane just fine...

Hey, I'm just going by old-school Inferno racing history here. It wouldn't be the first time Stan has pushed a rope from behind the wheel of a ridiculously fast boat!

[duckhunter]

Finally had an afternoon to work on the boat and drink beer! Got the intake on, valve covers installed, and now working on routing wires and hoses. It's fun bolting on shiny new stuff! Still lots to do on the punch list, but way closer to being on the river than I was this morning.

Here is the engine compartment when I bought the boat. Bimini top was mounted above it and there were Starboard dividers that made engine access impossible. Little bit of rust creeping in around the risers too.

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Here it is in last summer's configuration. Added the Corsa diverters and new exhaust manifolds/risers, moved the bimini under the rear seat, removed the dividers, and polished the sweet flame arrestor.

75601

Here she sits as of this evening. Looks a lot better to me! :cool:

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[Ghost]

Sweet, looks pretty different. Right down to the cool little inline gauge.

[duckhunter]

Making slow but steady progress. Down to the short hairs now, chasing parts and trying to avoid paying $8 in shipping for a $3 fuel fitting.

Everything is cleaned up and painted. Need to chase some threads and get the tstat housing bolted back up and hook up all the hoses. Manifolds and risers will be back from powdercoat this weekend. Had the son of a friend do them. Unfortunately underneath the factory coating the GLMs look like dog poop. Lots of casting imperfections and voids. In retrospect I should have done them myself with some body filler and spray paint, but this kid is starting a business and I wanted to help him out a little.

Still chasing some final fittings. I knew the darn fuel pump outlet was 3/8, but when I started trying to hook up the fuel line I discovered it sure isn't 3/8 NPT. It's actually 3/8-24, little tiny sucker. Since there isn't a -6AN to 3/8-24 adapter in existence that I could find, I opened up the OEM brass adapter as much as I dared with a drill and ordered a -6AN to 5/8 inverted flare adapter. Live and learn.

Have the remote oil filter setup ready to go, just need to bolt her up when I get the risers on there and measure & install the hoses. Still need to source some 1/2NPT to 1/2 hose 90deg fittings. Also have some senders to install and wiring to route. The high-speed Hardin throttle linkage I bought won't work with the teleflex throttle cable end so I had to rig it up with some old linkage out of the parts bin. For now it will be the ugly duckling of the refresh... At some point I may throw a universal throttle cable on there and use the Hardin stuff as it looks a lot nicer and I really don't feel like returning it.

One more solid weekend and she'll be ready for sea trials!

[duckhunter]

Ready for sea trials - just add batteries and water. :cartman:

Project took longer than expected and spiraled horribly out of control towards the end. We've had a rainy spring and I have had a lot of time cooped up in the shop with spray paint, braided hose cover, and heat shrink. And beer, lots and lots of beer.

Here's the engine ready for first start-up and initial tuning in the driveway. Once I check for leaks, set timing, retorque the exhaust after a heat cycle, etc, it will be time to hit the river for prop testing. Really hoping she'll pull the 22P Bravo 1. Still need to plumb in the dh custom remote oil filter mount and temp gauge, but not to worry, I have lots of blue hose cover left...

76037

[JayZ]

Looks awesome duck!

[duckhunter]

Runs like a champ!! Fired her up this afternoon. Just had one leak pop up, at the banjo fitting to the carb. Mrs. dh and I sat in the driveway drinking beer and listening to tunes in the boat for an hour after dinner. Gonna change the oil tomorrow and hit the river. I'm stoked that it started and ran so well.

[Ghost]

Congrats! Interested in the sea trial results after all your winter's work...

[duckhunter]

Congrats! Interested in the sea trial results after all your winter's work...

Thanks Ghost - you and me both!!

[Bobby D]

Duck,
It turned out very well and looks great. Nice fabrication and assembly work it’s obvious you put a lot of thought into your project as you moved along. Good luck this year and in the end you will feel great satisfaction knowing that you did all the work.
Bobby

[ITTLFLI]

Looks really nice! Good luck on the sea trial!

[Donzi_Dude]

sounds like an interesting project. i agree about the way the boat rides and it being the incorrect prop.

the bravo will be too much prop im thinking. you would see more of a gain with a bigger carb. im not a fan of carter carbs but 750 would have been my choice.

there is a wall of resistance @ 50mph that takes a lot to overcome and is broken @ 60mph. you are caught in it currently. have you tried a turbo prop?

im thinking the manifold and a 750 carter would give you about 3-4mph. a cam and some intake grinding 3-5 more..., exhaust manifolds...

the correct prop could be worth 1-2mph maybe.

GL!

[duckhunter]

Had the chance to hit the river a couple of times. The good news is that the motor is running like a champ. Better throttle response and power from idle to WOT. Did a thorough checkout of the engine after the initial sea trial - checked plugs, rechecked timing, vacuum test, etc. Everything looks great.

Unfortunately I couldn't pull the 22P Bravo I past 4100rpm. It ran great from holeshot through high cruise speeds and actually allowed me to trim up to the limiter without blowing out. Hit 52 mph at 4100 and ran into a brick wall - no matter how I trimmed it wouldn't pick up any more revs. I'm thinking I just don't have enough torque to swing the 15.25" four blade.

The 19P stock prop (Merc Vengeance) performs pretty much the same as it always did. Can't use any trim past 1/4 without ventilation. Seeing pretty much the same speed (approx 51) from 4400rpm to 4900rpm.

Going to visit a local prop shop and talk to them about trying some different wheels. Really hard to tell anything from the descriptions online - the manufacturers would have you believe that all of their props accelerate like the space shuttle and make your boat run on unicorn farts.

I'm guessing that a smaller diameter 3 blade like a 21P Laser II might get me higher in the powerband and still carry the bow. Or an Enertia, or Turbo, or ?.....

Overall happy with how she's running but disappointed with the prop results thus far.

[smokediver]

I think a rev 4 which i believe is smaller in diameter than a bravo might be a good place to start. A laser 2 might get u a good top end but i think it would not be the best for cruise and all around.

[tmdog]

Overall happy with how she's running but disappointed with the prop results thus far.

Lets face it, you have a power problem not a prop problem. Been there and tried to solve it by throwing props at it. Wasted money.

[Ghost]

The 19P stock prop (Merc Vengeance) performs pretty much the same as it always did. Can't use any trim past 1/4 without ventilation. Seeing pretty much the same speed (approx 51) from 4400rpm to 4900rpm.

Just wanted to make sure I had this right...when you get to 51 at 4400rpm, you can add throttle and drive the rpm up to 4900, but speed doesn't change? You're just slipping/ventilating more and more as the revs climb? If that's true, and if your max power is up at about 4800 or 5000, I'd expect you MIGHT make another mph (maybe as much as two) by getting the revs up with less pitch. If there's a right prop to do it I mean. You're not getting full power down at 4400. Question is what wheel would hold its bite with your hull past 51 at your level of trim, and is there one below 19" pitch that would spin 52-53 at 4800-5k rpm. Hmmm...

(One aside: I assume you're running the test with a light load of people/fuel/gear, such that you should be topping out your rpm under the loading conditions. But if not, that's worth doing in seeking the right prop. I figure you're already on that one.)

[duckhunter]

Lets face it, you have a power problem not a prop problem. Been there and tried to solve it by throwing props at it. Wasted money.

Last weekend I was thinking the same thing. That lead to a ton of troubleshooting and rechecking all of the work I did this winter.

Without going into the motor I have checked it out thoroughly. Compression is good on all cylinders at around 170psi. Vacuum test gave good results across the board, from idle to quick throttle blips to cruising to WOT. No indications of worn rings, bad valves, under or over-carburetion, vacuum leaks, etc. Plugs are all good to very slightly rich and are the correct AC MR43LTS. All plug wires and coil wire have good continuity. Coil checks out on a bench test, I have not load tested it. Good voltage at the coil, ign module, ign key, alt output, batteries, etc. I added an additional ground wire at the distributor for good measure.

Timing is set at 10deg initial and 30 all-in with the HP500 module in base timing mode (BTM). Since this is a TB-V once it's out of BTM it will add more timing based on input from the knock sensor and overall engine reaction (continuing to gain rpm as timing is advanced). Running good ethanol-free 93 octane. Fuel filter is new and the old one had no signs of water.

Fuel pressure is good, although I am going to check and see if there is a restriction somewhere on the tank side of the pump that doesn't show up in the driveway (vent hose issue, etc). Easy enough to do by teeing the vacuum gauge into the fuel pickup. Carb linkage is good and goes to WOT. Choke is completely off when engine is warm. On a whim I wired open the secondary air valve to ensure that the counterweight wasn't too heavy for this application with no changes, ie the vacuum secondaries are opening like they need to.

Unless I'm missing something I'm pretty sure I have a healthy small block. It should be pretty darn near 300hp. Folks that sell complete 2v to 4v conversion kits for the same motor see 307hp on the dyno and I have better exhaust.

I will admit that the B1 was a little optimistic... Just too much wheel (diameter, blade area, weight) with a SBC & 1.47 gears. The 19P Vengeance is clearly not enough prop - it doesn't carry the bow or respond well to trim at all. With the carb upgrade I can bang it off the rev limiter at will, which I couldn't do stock. I'm certain that there is a middle ground that will improve cruise & top end speeds and have enough traction to be able to add more positive trim.

Option two would be to blow completely past the point of diminishing returns and throw 600hp and a big drive & wheel on it and get it running all the way back on the pad. I suspect that wouldn't work out very well for tubing though...

At the end of the day I just wanted to get this thing running well (which it is) and propped correctly. I realize that it will never be a speed demon. It rides well and carries all of our gear out on the river. The four barrel conversion was low-hanging fruit, but I can't justify repowering or doing anything too crazy.

[duckhunter]

Just wanted to make sure I had this right...when you get to 51 at 4400rpm, you can add throttle and drive the rpm up to 4900, but speed doesn't change? You're just slipping/ventilating more and more as the revs climb? If that's true, and if your max power is up at about 4800 or 5000, I'd expect you MIGHT make another mph (maybe as much as two) by getting the revs up with less pitch. If there's a right prop to do it I mean. You're not getting full power down at 4400. Question is what wheel would hold its bite with your hull past 51 at your level of trim, and is there one below 19" pitch that would spin 52-53 at 4800-5k rpm. Hmmm...

(One aside: I assume you're running the test with a light load of people/fuel/gear, such that you should be topping out your rpm under the loading conditions. But if not, that's worth doing in seeking the right prop. I figure you're already on that one.)

Yup, pretty frustrating. I would like to find something that will allow me to run 4800-5000 WOT light and still be hooked up even with some positive trim. The B1 was amazing right up until I ran out of steam at 4100 - great midrange and enough traction to really carry bow. Handling was exceptional, no blowouts on sharp turns. It was just too much prop for my combo. Four blades at 15.25 diameter is a ton of prop.

The Vengeance is advertised as the budget Quicksilver prop - it is definitely not ideal for any kind of performance, particularly in the aerated water coming off the step.

Gotta find the middle ground!

[roadtrip se]

On the stupid side, I've seen Cobalts in your size range running 502Mags and even a 500HP at Lake Cumberland. The 500 boat is a sleeper.

Back to reality. You said you need a little more nose than the three blade Vengance. And a lot less diameter than the Bravo One 22.
To carry the nose, you are looking for more cup. The Mirage+ 21 would be a nice try. It is also below 15 inches in diameter, so it is a lot
less blade than the Bravo One. The Prescision TXP would be another nice one to try. The TXP has even more cup.

BBlades should have both for testing purposes. Get her tuned for the Gorge Run!

[BUIZILLA]

in Grizz's leftover props I may have what you are looking for >

14.25 x 21 x 3 T1 - Merc hub
14.25 x 21 x 3 T1 - Flo Torq hub
14.5 x 19 x 4 OS1 - T lock
13.25 x 20 x 4 2+2X T1 - Merc hub

14.5 x 21 M+ my personal stash, works great on my stepped Z23

the 3 props I lent to Ghost are too much blade for your setup...

[Donzi_Dude]

again i would try a 21 turbo. they seem to bite a bit better than a mirage+. i thinking with the stepped bottom its a good thing.

[duckhunter]

Guys, I really appreciate the feedback. Did some testing with the local prop shop (Leon at Knight's Propellers - standup guy) over the weekend, he was a little mystified too. Boat didn't like the regular T1 at all - really strange vibrations and a ton of bow rise.

We're ordering a pair of 13.25dia 4 blade T2+2 OT in 19 and 20P to try out. The boat really liked the B1 other than the lack of rpm - great handling from hole shot to cruise and good bite for carrying the bow. Hoping that the significantly smaller diameter Turbo will gain some revs and the four blades will still allow a lot of positive trim. These props were designed for the heavy early 90s bass boats with smaller V6 weed whackers.

So at the end of the day it's not looking like I will be hitting 60, but the boat is running great and if I can find the prop that will work well for pulling tubes and a 40mph cruise I will be happy. Maybe I'll throw a jackplate and a 70 on the Whaler if I still have a need for speed...

Look for a 22P Bravo 1 to pop up in the classifieds at some point.

[Donzi_Dude]

interesting. a vibration usually means a square wheel.turbos are all about bow lift so i can understand the bow being too high because it seems like it may be an issue with your original prop. i think a mirage has a little less bow lift than a turbo.


smaller dia. seems like a move in the wrong direction with the venting(reason the B1 is working so well) but you never know unless you try. i guess if the top speed, attitude and holeshot are good with the B1 why care about the rpm's?

:confused:

[Ghost]

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY: I have trouble imagining any prop above 19 pitch is likely to be right.

EXPLANATION: First, I went back and looked closely at the math. Something that felt odd before really seems odd now.

The numbers on the 22p 4-blade Bravo 1 make sense to me. Tops out at 4100 rpm, 52 mph, giving a slip of 10.5%. So far, so good.

But to hit 51 mph at 4400 with the 19, you'd be just a hair above 5% slip. That seems awfully low, especially for a 3-blade prop. I'd expect a more slip from the 3-blade than the 4-blade, and 5% seems quite low for either. (Though I suppose maybe stepped hulls run with less slip than I'm used to. Even so, the gulf between the 10.5% and 5% numbers is the real question mark, not the absolute number.)

Doing some sensitivity analysis (after all, prop pitches are given to the nearest integer but in reality, there are probably unseen fractions in the true pitch measures), if I stretch the 22 pitch down to 21.5, and stretch the 19 pitch up to 19.5, the slip measures go to:
21.5p, 4100, 52mph, 8.5% slip
19.5p, 4400, 51mph, 7.75% slip

So, somewhere in the vagaries of measurement and perhaps the vagaries of pitch specs, maybe the 5% slip number that seems so odd is just a product of approximations in measurement. And/or, maybe the 10.5% number was high, such that the discrepancy between the two actually wasn't as big as the measurements made it appear.

But anyway, setting all that aside...in the big picture, the most telling thing to me is that you've hit 52 mph (pretty close to your expected top end) waaaaay down at 4100 rpm using that 22 pitch 4-blade. Suggesting that 22 pitch is a good bit too much. Not sure what RPM you want for your WOT, but I'm assuming 4800-5000. If that's the case, I'd be looking for a 19 pitch (or possibly 18 pitch) 4-blade. Maybe a Merc Revolution 4 in 19 pitch? Or a Turbo 2+2 TH in 18 pitch? (I don't know those props at all, just skimmed through the offerings for 4-blades for stern-drives that are made in 19 or 18 pitch. A 19-pitch Bravo-1 4-blade would be the obvious choice but they don't make less than 22 pitch.)

I'm thinking your best speed will end up being 53-54. If so, with a 19 pitch, assuming a WOT slip range between 7 and 10.5 percent, that would put your max rpm between 4650 (53 mph, 7% slip) on the low end and 4925 (54 mph, 10.5% slip) on the high end. I'm guessing the real slip will be higher than 7, and thus that you'd actually be wide open somewhere from 4800 to 4925 if the prop stays hooked up.

The real point of which is that no matter how I do the math, I have trouble imagining any prop above 19 pitch is likely to be right. And it's possible that 19 could still be too much if you're headed the way of 4-blades and less slip. Sorry all of that went on so long, but I didn't want to give a naked conclusion with no way to evaluate it.

EDIT: With a little more thorough re-read (smacks head), I see you're kinda going this way already. The only difference is I wouldn't be ordering a 20 to try, just a 19 and possibly an 18. Eager to hear how it goes. Hoping the magic is that 4-blades won't blow out, and you can squeeze the last few HP into mph by getting the revs up.

[BUIZILLA]

Duckie.... did you even read my post? :confused:

[duckhunter]

Duckie.... did you even read my post? :confused:

I did, and I appreciate it. I am pretty well locked-in to buying something from my current prop guy. He spent most of Saturday afternoon bombing around Lake Guntersville with me and swapping props. Young guy with a start-up company working on props to augment pro bass fishing and some guiding.

That said, I'm always up for some add'l test and evaluation and would definitely give other props a shot at the Gorge Run in Jul. Thanks again!

[Donzi_Dude]

Turbo Fusion 4 Series

"This aggressive series of propellers is not for everyone. These props with their high rake and progressive pitch design are ready for boats with stepped hulls"

available in 14.25x21

i have never used one of these but it looks like a spinneli chopper.


:wink:

[Pat McPherson]

Turbo Fusion 4 Series

"This aggressive series of propellers is not for everyone. These props with their high rake and progressive pitch design are ready for boats with stepped hulls"

available in 14.25x21

i have never used one of these but it looks like a spinneli chopper.


:wink:
I tried a fusion 4 on my 24' Superboat and it ran pretty good. The Merc Rev 4 ran better and seems to be the ticket on my 22C also. The Merc Rev 4 is a smaller dia than a B1 and has more rake for bow lift. 21p Rev 4 would be my recommendation...

[Donzi_Dude]

"The Merc Rev 4"

if i had to guess that is the prop the boat came from the factory with.

[duckhunter]

I'm interested in trying a Rev4 at some point as well, from what I've read it would do what I'm looking for. Gonna try the 2+2 first and see what happens. Smallest pitch avail is 20 (no 19 like I thought) so if it won't hit the WOT band I'll need to try something else.

So I've pretty well got it narrowed down to some flavor of four blade, which is what I have suspected and why I hoped the B1 might be the ticket. Just gotta find the right combo of diameter, pitch, rake, cup, and all the other parameters that make prop selection such a black art.

It was nice having someone on the boat to help keep track of things. On the last test with the T1 (three blade, still kind of an "all around" budget prop like the Vengeance with a little more blade area) he noticed that the water was coming off the hull way farther back than it does with the Vengeance; probably 18" to 2', or back around the rear bench. It just had a bit of a hard time holding it there without slipping a little.

Ghost - thanks for putting in the time to write all of that up! I'm with you that maybe a smaller dia 4B 20P or less is probably where I end up.

The motor feels really strong - definitely a noticeable improvement over stock. If anyone is interested, please run through the diagnostics I went through and see if there is anything I missed. Without going into the motor more than I'm willing to at this point in the season (ie checking valve springs, etc) I think I've been pretty thorough. I might try to step the jetting up on the secondaries a size or two, but I don't think carb tuning would account for the low rpms. If I took the hatch off I could maybe find someone to ride along and try to check fuel pressure and timing while running, but that's kind of sketchy and all of the driveway testing was spot on. Really just looking for confirmation that this is a prop issue and I'm not missing something stupid...

Again, I appreciate everyone's input and advice. Cold beers in the cooler at Chatt, or you are welcome to fight the chicks for some of their rum panty droppers (made fresh daily!).

[khbtskrh]

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