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RockyS18
11-26-2012, 05:52 PM
The boat is a 1979 Cigarette 20. It's my cousin's boat. He was interested in a Cigarette 20 and I found this one on craigslist. He bought it in June of 2012, and finally got it after a really hectic experience. I'll tell him to join this site so that he can explain the nightmare that ensued after purchasing the boat, and so he can post pictures and explain everything.

It had a 454/TRS combo. It managed 56MPH (GPS).

The boat was a saltwater boat so many of the metal furnishings were somewhat corroded. It did come with a brand new interior.

Enough backstory, time for what's gonna happen:
-New paint job (attached) (page 9)
-496HO/Bravo 1X
-Teak dashboard and all teak trim will be removed.
-The intakes on the powerdome (What the hatch bump is known as) are teak. The same style circle dowel things are also just under the rear seat. They will be removed and the front of the powerdome (or at least part of it) will have a grille placed over it.
-New gauges
-New cleats will be added on either side of the front of the windshield.
-New steering wheel
-new fuel tank
-New audio system
-280S K-Planes
-Hydraulic steering
-Getting rid of foot throttle

Those are the big things- there are a lot of smaller things that I won't bother mentioning and I'm sure as the project progresses we'll notice the extra work that we'll have to do.

I have a lot of pictures already (the project began last weekend). I'll put those in a new post.

RockyS18
11-26-2012, 06:06 PM
The boat will have to be stripped down to the hull to be painted. The engine will be removed tomorrow. There's one pic where it looks like my cousin is playing air guitar on the bow of the boat; he is actually reaching down to pick up a screwdriver haha. In that picture the camera is looking through one of the wooden dowel things removed from the hatch which gave it a cool effect.

:smash:

OFFSHORE GINGER
11-26-2012, 06:06 PM
Dude ( Rocky ) , awsome boat and congrats ..........................thank you for sharing , and keep us posted because your boat is one of my all time favorite ride's .

mario
11-26-2012, 06:27 PM
looks great love the old 20cigs this is what gets us thur winter

RockyS18
11-27-2012, 03:35 PM
Update:

Engine is out!

Sorry for the low-quality images, we forgot the digital camera.

jl1962
11-27-2012, 03:49 PM
Great - keep 'em coming.

I also like the overhead shot of the Cig and your 22 at the dock.

Maybe in the spring we can line up a 14, 16, 18, 19 (Hornet), 20 (Cig) and 22 for some cool shots.

:cool:

RockyS18
11-28-2012, 06:18 PM
"Maybe in the spring we can line up a 14, 16, 18, 19 (Hornet), 20 (Cig) and 22 for some cool shots." -jl1962

I like the idea Jay.

Next update should be this weekend.

glashole
11-29-2012, 07:25 AM
looks good

whats the idea with the 496?

i am sure it will work just fine but these boats (from what I have seen) can handle a hell of alot more HP if you wanted to

rr1048
11-30-2012, 09:39 AM
Great looking project and cool boat. It is interesting to see 2 wells in the engine room with a bbc? What year is your boat and did it come with a bbc? I was curious seeing the large access panel behind the back seat. All the 20's that I have seen are solid and some have had a access panel cut by the owners. My 20 with bbc has a well on the port side and a access panel chopped behind the rear seat. It is a challenge to get the motor out and must be a real pain to work on the motor with both wells in place. Please keep the photos coming and thanks for bringing back to life a "classic, awesome boat"!
I have enclosed a photo of my cleaned up 20' Cigarette engine room before installing the motor and demonstrating the blue LED's that I installed under the deck, on all 4 sides. I made some cool mounting blocks to allow me to attach the LED light bars without drilling any holes. Thought you might enjoy!

RockyS18
12-01-2012, 05:50 PM
looks good

whats the idea with the 496?

i am sure it will work just fine but these boats (from what I have seen) can handle a hell of alot more HP if you wanted to

The 496 is going to have some performance work done to it.


Great looking project and cool boat. It is interesting to see 2 wells in the engine room with a bbc? What year is your boat and did it come with a bbc? I was curious seeing the large access panel behind the back seat. All the 20's that I have seen are solid and some have had a access panel cut by the owners. My 20 with bbc has a well on the port side and a access panel chopped behind the rear seat. It is a challenge to get the motor out and must be a real pain to work on the motor with both wells in place. Please keep the photos coming and thanks for bringing back to life a "classic, awesome boat"!
I have enclosed a photo of my cleaned up 20' Cigarette engine room before installing the motor and demonstrating the blue LED's that I installed under the deck, on all 4 sides. I made some cool mounting blocks to allow me to attach the LED light bars without drilling any holes. Thought you might enjoy!

Thanks for the pics! The boat is a 1979 and did come with a big block along with a 330TRS from the factory. Since there are two wells a previous owner must have cut out the access panel when doing engine work; when we took the engine out we noticed many performance parts. There was also a heavy duty aluminum engine cradle which I don't believe was from the factory.

I'd love to see some more pics of your Cig 20 and the work you did to it if you get a chance.

jtr2kwl
12-01-2012, 10:20 PM
Hi everyone, I guess its about time I introduced myself. I've been a long time lurker, and I think this might actually be my first post! I'd like to thank Rocky for posting some great photos as we work on pulling my new to me Cig 20 apart this winter!

I had been in love with Cig 20's for sometime when Rocky found the boat that I ended up buying on -- of all places -- craigslist. I snapped up the boat as quickly as possible, and had her shipped from FLA to upstate NY, with a detour in a New Jersey Turnpike Impound (note to self, NEVER use that shipping company AGAIN). Nevertheless, the baby cig finally found its way to Lake George, on a very unfortunately rainy weekend. That said, we found some time in the afternoon to launch, and took her out for the first time. The boat was pretty much ready to go as delivered, and we had a BLAST. I made sure to take the week off for 4th of July, and put about 15 hours on that week alone! The little cig is a fantastic machine, took a while to get used to it can be very sensitive at times, but honestly a great boat. In many ways the boat was in great shape, save for an increasing amount of slack in the steering line.

With that said, the boat was a project from the beginning, and was purchased with that in mind. We spent a good deal of time this summer planning out the winter project, designing the new paint scheme, etc. Finally its time to get going and the first order of business is tearing the boat apart until its little more than a hull! As Rocky outlined in his initial post there are quite a few things to address.

Thanks again to Rocky for starting this thread, and thanks to everyone who has posted thus far. I'm very much looking forward to the work ahead of me this winter, almost as much as I'm looking towards the end result! We'll try to keep as much information on this thread as possible, and please, I welcome everyone to chime in as much as possible with any and all advice you may have!!

jtr2kwl
12-01-2012, 10:24 PM
@glashole:

I would agree with you, I've seen a lot of Cig 20's handle a great deal of power, and handle it very well. The biggest reason for the 496 is mostly budget. I'm trying to do as much as possible to the boat within reason.

Rocky's 22 Classic has been powered by a 496 to the upper 70's, and I know of one particular Cig 20 that has the same package powering it to 78+. The Cig 20 is a decent amount lighter than the 22 Classic, so I'm quite sure the 496 will provide a great deal of performance, and a HUGE improvement over the current power.

jtr2kwl
12-01-2012, 10:33 PM
@glashole:

I agree with you, I've seen a great deal of other 20's handle a good amount of power and handle it well. However, I'm trying to do as much of this project as I can within reason, and I have a 496 that is available!

Rocky's 22 Classic is powered by a 496 and regularly see's the upper 70's. I know of another Cig 20 that is powered by the same package and has seen 78+. Trying to stay within budget, but certainly looking for some performance! I'm sure the 496 will be a huge improvement over the current power

jl1962
12-01-2012, 10:40 PM
Welcome to the Registry and thanks for sharing the resto project.

Hope to see it in the spring.

jtr2kwl
12-01-2012, 10:40 PM
@rr1048

To be quite honest, I'm not 100% sure about the stock motor, and the more and more I think about it, I don't think the current motor was what the boat shipped with from the factory. As you pointed out, your boat with the BBC has only 1 well in the engine compartment...I've actually seen this on a couple other 20's as well. Like Rocky mentioned, the 454 had an aftermarket carb and intake, and a cradle that didn't look stock at all.

It seems that a previous owner upgraded the power to the 454, and decided to leave the wells intact. To make squeezing the motor in possible, they had to cut out a portion than you can see in the photos. It was a pain taking out the motor with the wells intact, but would have been damn near impossible to do without that cutout!

rr1048, you're cigarette looks great from the few shots i've seen! I'd love to see more photos if you'd be happy to share, and let me know what kind of work you did/what you would recommend. Also love the LED's you put int he engine bay, I may have to do something similar, truly looks AMAZING!

Ghost
12-01-2012, 11:02 PM
Congrats, very cool boat. Looking forward to watching progress over the winter. Also love the overhead shot with the Cig and Rocky's 009, which I think is an incredibly well-styled 22C, one of my favorites. -Mike

RockyS18
12-01-2012, 11:30 PM
jtr2kwl just wanted to let you guys know that he responded to some of the questions, but he has to wait for a moderator to approve his next post for some reason.

And there are conflicting reports as to whether or not the 454 is original. Unfortunately, there isn't any info stating what engine the boat came with so anything could've been done between 1979 and now. It's just my opinion that I think it is original.

Thanks for the compliment Ghost!

Radical 1
12-02-2012, 10:04 AM
I think this is a great project and I look forward to the progress. I am the third wheel helping out with the labor....oh and letting the Cig 20 stay in my garage. This is a great boat and will be even better when finished!

OFFSHORE GINGER
12-03-2012, 09:41 AM
Radical 1 welcome to the forum .:biggrin.::biggrin.:

kjly63
12-04-2012, 10:14 AM
Great project. I did the same thing on my Cig 20 through the winter and had it ready for the following summer.

Keep us posted as work progresses :propeller:

Ken

rr1048
12-05-2012, 11:57 PM
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I started out the spring with a engine removal for a oil leak and ended with a built up 454. Originally a HP425 upgraded with a basket of good parts and exceptional machine work. Lamar Walden Performance, in Doraville did a outstanding job and looking forward to splashing the boat in the spring. After getting the motor back I took care of some housekeeping items with some upgrades. I sent some photos of the motor installed, sea strainer refitting, bilge pump upgrade and transmission cooler upgrade. I also replace the windshield and removed the lifeline on the deck with a list of other updates. I am in he final stages of completion and should be ready for the Lake Hartwell and Lanier Poker runs in 2013.

rr1048
12-06-2012, 12:29 AM
Sorry I forgot a couple photos. The sea strainer was refitted with a gate valve on he inlet. Lamar Walden was putting the finishing touch on my new KE valve covers. Overall the workmanship and quality was over the top. My thanks to the crew at Lamar Walden's shop.

RockyS18
12-06-2012, 05:00 PM
I started out the spring with a engine removal for a oil leak and ended with a built up 454. Originally a HP425 upgraded with a basket of good parts and exceptional machine work. Lamar Walden Performance, in Doraville did a outstanding job and looking forward to splashing the boat in the spring. After getting the motor back I took care of some housekeeping items with some upgrades. I sent some photos of the motor installed, sea strainer refitting, bilge pump upgrade and transmission cooler upgrade. I also replace the windshield and removed the lifeline on the deck with a list of other updates. I am in he final stages of completion and should be ready for the Lake Hartwell and Lanier Poker runs in 2013.

Wow! It looks great good luck with it this summer! Is that the original paint job?

rr1048
12-06-2012, 07:46 PM
The deck is original gel coat, bottom Interlux VC Performance Epoxy and sides were painted within the past 5 years and is dark blue with a interesting silver stripe.
The hull paint and design works for now but eventually will be redone.

These are great boats and I had the pleasure of spending about 800 hours in a Cigarette 20 in the 1980's. I had multiple 18' Donzi's and a 16' Donzi outboard and the 20' Cigarette always handled like a much bigger boat than a 20 footer. We gave many larger and faster boats a serious beating because a Cigarette 20 will take everything you can give it and is very stable and solid in rough water and high speed.

rvander68
12-06-2012, 10:57 PM
rr1048 -

Great looking boat!

You wouldn't still have the lifeline components would you? It was missing off my Cig 24 and I'm looking for the stanchion caps that the cable feeds through. Interested in selling if you still have?


jtr2kwl - awesome project! Can't wait to see pictures as you progress.

cvoulgaris
12-07-2012, 04:44 PM
Im in the process of restoring one as well w a 454 and origianal berkley jeyt drive. lots of work but i love it. its totally stripped now. new gas tank, interior, berkley redoing drive, engine out...etc. I hope to have it finished by June 1st. ITs going back all original. its a funky robins egg blue color. How many did they make? i heard 150 is that correct? Chris

Ghost
12-07-2012, 04:49 PM
Very cool! I'm sure others like me would love to see pics if you have any, now and as the project progresses.

Mike

OFFSHORE GINGER
12-07-2012, 05:07 PM
Chris , are you really sure you want to keep the Jet drive because i know of two other people with 20 Cigs who went to other drives .

RockyS18
12-07-2012, 08:29 PM
Im in the process of restoring one as well w a 454 and origianal berkley jeyt drive. lots of work but i love it. its totally stripped now. new gas tank, interior, berkley redoing drive, engine out...etc. I hope to have it finished by June 1st. ITs going back all original. its a funky robins egg blue color. How many did they make? i heard 150 is that correct? Chris

Cool! You should definitely make a build thread in this forum section. I believe there were a little over 150 made total. The jet drives are really rare, I think only two came from the factory like that. Good luck with the project.

This thread is bringing out a lot of Cig 20 owners :D

cvoulgaris
12-07-2012, 08:40 PM
[ QUOTE=$originalposter]{$pagetext}[/QUOTE]Im taking a lot of pictures ill get to posting. It was in ruff cosmetic shape but sound.

cvoulgaris
12-07-2012, 08:44 PM
[ QUOTE=$originalposter]{$pagetext}[/QUOTE]
At first i was a little turned off by it...but it is just really just so cool and all original. i hear it puts out a seventy foot rooster tail. we'll see. Now im so happy that is a jet drive.

cvoulgaris
12-07-2012, 08:53 PM
btw its a 1975 hull# 44

Greg Guimond
12-07-2012, 09:31 PM
Keep the jet, you can always change it later and that tail is priceless

RockyS18
12-10-2012, 03:44 PM
Here's some pics from this weekend, it's really coming along.

RockyS18
12-11-2012, 08:54 PM
The Cig's new engine:

MDonziM
12-12-2012, 09:03 AM
Nice progress. Interesting to see how different the layup is from a donzi. I assume those panels that connect the eng bulkhead to the seat back are original? With no transmission do you still need all that cutout in the rear seat?

rr1048
12-12-2012, 02:15 PM
The back of the seat were not cut out at the factory. These were solid and the boat owners or service center had a field day with the saw. The boats that came with a storage lockers on each sides of the motor must have been impossible to access. My 20 Cigarette is a BBC / TRS and it has a storage locker on the port side. The locker is almost worthless as it is always wet from water washing over the transom if you don't time the slow down perfectly. If you were to just kill the throttle a wall of water would wash over the rear and fill the backseat and it's passenger was a serious bath. I have a modified opening in the back of my rear seat and I have 2 pieces of starboard that I use to seal it off. Otherwise the engine noise is loud and it throws oil on the back seat cushions. It looks like a great project! Have fun.

RockyS18
12-12-2012, 05:20 PM
Nice progress. Interesting to see how different the layup is from a donzi. I assume those panels that connect the eng bulkhead to the seat back are original? With no transmission do you still need all that cutout in the rear seat?

As rr1048 stated, the seat back was cutout by owners/shops during maintenance. We are getting rid of the two storage compartments in the engine room as well as removing the transmission, so the cutout in the rear seat will be unnecessary. We'll most likely glass it back in, but it is hidden by the seats so my cousin hasn't decided on the plan for it yet.


The back of the seat were not cut out at the factory. These were solid and the boat owners or service center had a field day with the saw. The boats that came with a storage lockers on each sides of the motor must have been impossible to access. My 20 Cigarette is a BBC / TRS and it has a storage locker on the port side. The locker is almost worthless as it is always wet from water washing over the transom if you don't time the slow down perfectly. If you were to just kill the throttle a wall of water would wash over the rear and fill the backseat and it's passenger was a serious bath. I have a modified opening in the back of my rear seat and I have 2 pieces of starboard that I use to seal it off. Otherwise the engine noise is loud and it throws oil on the back seat cushions. It looks like a great project! Have fun.

The stern sits very low in the water and it definitely is easy to soak the backseat. I sat in the backseat to take pics the day my cousin picked up the boat, and he slowed down quickly and I was soaked!

jtr2kwl
12-12-2012, 08:19 PM
Well, as everyone I'm sure has seen from the photos above, we made a great deal of progress this past weekend. The motor that the cigarette is adopting from Rocky's donzi has been removed, and is sitting next to the cigarette all ready to go. The engine bay in the cigarette has been completely gutted and cleaned. The transmission, steering asssembly, gimbal, exhaust, pumps, and wiring have all been removed. The only thing remaining is the steering cable, which will be removed when we disconnect it from the steering system. I spent most of the weekend in the engine bay removing everything, and Rocky spent a lot of time with the dash, disconnect gauges, removing steering wheel, etc. At this point, its really starting to look like there is hope for the cig! I really can't believe how she looks with nothing in the back, and everyday the end goal seems to be more and more attainable.

At this point, we have to finish removing the dash, and removing all of the wiring. We'll finish that this weekend. Pretty much everything is just getting cut out, so we're removing it all, and cutting the wires and making sure we get them all pulled out. Also to be done, is the bow. The bow is foamed up, so I'm going to spend a lot of time cutting it out this weekend. A few things need to be removed that I'll need to be able to climb up into the bow, including the deck cleat and fuel intake. Those items also need to be removed so we can completely remove the teak stripe on the deck. When the ring on the deck is removed, it will be replaced with a pop up cleat, and the fuel cap will be replaced with a cap that sits flush on the deck. Really want to have a nice clean deck. The ski compartment will be cut out, and glassed over, so thats just another reason to clean out the bow, so that I have some storage room up there as well. Once this is all completed, its time to get it painted! Rocky posted the final designs in the first post on this thread. While its off in paint, it will be time to start procuring the parts to start putting her back together!

jtr2kwl
12-12-2012, 08:50 PM
Nice progress. Interesting to see how different the layup is from a donzi. I assume those panels that connect the eng bulkhead to the seat back are original? With no transmission do you still need all that cutout in the rear seat?


It sure is interesting to see how they are different, but also how they are similar. The cutout wasn't original on this boat. As I've been removing things, its interesting to see how much work was done. I don't believe the motor was original, hence the 2 tubs on either side...both of which will be removed. With the merc transmission, the only way it seems to get the engine in was to cut the whole out of the back of the seat. Without the transmission, the 496 will be able to sit further back, and the cutout won't be necessary. Will have to decide what to do with it whether to leave it or have it glassed back in.

-On another note, sliding the engine back brings me to another consideration: weight distribution. The boat is really well balanced as it is, and I don't want to lose that. Curious to hear thoughts on how sliding the 496 back will work out. I believe the 496 bravo 1x package is comparable in weight to the 454/trs.



The back of the seat were not cut out at the factory. These were solid and the boat owners or service center had a field day with the saw. The boats that came with a storage lockers on each sides of the motor must have been impossible to access. My 20 Cigarette is a BBC / TRS and it has a storage locker on the port side. The locker is almost worthless as it is always wet from water washing over the transom if you don't time the slow down perfectly. If you were to just kill the throttle a wall of water would wash over the rear and fill the backseat and it's passenger was a serious bath. I have a modified opening in the back of my rear seat and I have 2 pieces of starboard that I use to seal it off. Otherwise the engine noise is loud and it throws oil on the back seat cushions. It looks like a great project! Have fun.


Agree, the cutout was done to accomodate the 454, and keep the storage tubs intact. We'll be removing both storage tubs. My plan is to put the batteries on one side, and set up some bumper holders on the other side. I really found the storage tubs to be less then useful, each one could only hold one bumper!!

On second thought...I'll have to consider where to place the batteries without the tubs in place. Water coming over the back was a pain with the old setup. I'm hoping its not as much of an issue with the new setup. However, with the tubs removed, water coming in the scoops is a very real threat, especially with the batteries potentially being right there. More to think about....

jtr2kwl
12-12-2012, 08:58 PM
also @rr1048, i LOVE your boat. I have to confess that the paint scheme was the inspiration for one of our final 2 designs! I didn't realize it was your boat, I believe I saw a photo on OSO and just loved how subtle and clean it looks.

rr1048
12-13-2012, 11:11 AM
Thanks for the compliment. I wish I could take credit but the boat was painted this way when I purchased from Northern NY finger lakes area. The paint design is unique and it is a silver on a dark blue hull. This boat also had the original Halter Marine Logo on the rear sides when I first took delivery. When I get around to freshening the sides I will probably keep the same design. I recently had my engine built and made multiple revisions to other areas while the engine was out. The motor is back in the boat and ready to go when it warms up at Lake Hartwell, GA. I am looking forward to prop selection for my new setup. It originally came with the stock 330 that I upgraded to a HP425 and freshened almost everything with the engine build. On the dyno at 640 we dialed it back for lake gas at 605hp. These projects are great fun and my friends think I am crazy always changing something. It is the joy of boating. Have fun!

rr1048
12-13-2012, 12:10 PM
[ QUOTE=$originalposter]{$pagetext}[/QUOTE]

I am reluctantly removing the lifeline as a recommendation from a friend. If I do not like it missing I plan to reinstall after giving it a season. If anything changes and I plan to eliminate forever I will let you know. Good luck with your project.

BUIZILLA
12-13-2012, 01:22 PM
IMO, the lifeline gives the Cig name, and hull, some *character*

*character* is good :cool:

rvander68
12-13-2012, 06:29 PM
I like character! The lifeline was off my boat when I bought it. The first thing I did was figure out what parts I needed to put it back on (minus the correct stanchion caps). Lifeline or not these smaller Cigs, like the Donzi's look great.

jtr2kwl - GREAT progress!! BTW, the trick to keeping the water from washing over the back is to turn the wheel sharply right before the wave gets to you, the wave will just flow right past you.

rr1048 - keep us posted on prop selection and resulting performance; that thing should fly w/605hp!

RockyS18
12-18-2012, 10:54 AM
rvander68- great looking boat!

Here's some progress from this weekend. jtr2kwl has some more pics as well.

The bow is all filled with foam so that has to be removed. All that's left to remove is the fuel tank and the foam so we can get to the hardware up front.

RockyS18
12-18-2012, 06:54 PM
Oh, and the 454 is sold. The TRS and transmission are still available if anyone is interested.

rr1048
12-18-2012, 07:05 PM
RockyS18

Great news the 454 is sold. What are you look to get for the Merctrans? What is the model number?

If you are not planning to use the round teak pieces from the hatch or below the seat are you interested in selling? I have a couple that are missing and could use a few spares.

Thanks, Randy

RockyS18
12-18-2012, 07:10 PM
I'm not sure of the model number or how much Derek wants for it, I'll check into those things.

Unfortunately most of those round teak pieces have already been thrown out... I wish that you'd asked sooner because we just threw them out this past weekend. There are still a few left on the hatch, but they are stubborn and don't want to leave! They'll probably break when I take them off. How many do you need? I'll do my best to take them off cleanly.

rr1048
12-18-2012, 10:00 PM
Thanks! If you end up with 4 or 5 that would be way more than I need. If I had 2 or 3 I would be in good shape. But, 1 would help.
Please keep me posted on your success removing the last pieces.
I was curious, how are you filling in the front, ski locker? Are you going to use the current locker top or build up the deck?
It is great to watch your progress and join in on the fun!
Have a great day.
Randy

RockyS18
01-30-2013, 06:54 PM
Update: The Cig is currently at Performance Marine getting some holes filled in and being prepped for paint.

Also, rr1048- I found a couple round teak pieces and they are yours if you're interested. One has a slight crack in it but you can't tell it is cracked when it is on the boat.

rr1048
01-30-2013, 09:49 PM
Rocky,

Awesome and thanks for locating a couple of teak trim pieces

Please email me and we can work out the details


rr1048@aol.com

20cigdon
02-09-2013, 02:17 PM
I have a guy restoring my boat (wont say who) but so far I have spent $83,000+!! since 2007. The boat needed everything. Hull is painted, gas tank replaced, all stress cracks repaired, aft storage compartments removed & filled in, topside is primered, new seats, new windshield, transom mount, steering wheel,gauges, 280S K planes and pump/harness and a custom tandem trailer has already been purchased.

Boat still needs 600 hp BB carbureted engine, engine harness, XR drive, prop (28 pitch),top side painted,sea strainer,exhaust,throttle controls, (4) new tires on the new 2007 trailer.

Someone tell me if $83,000 is a little high for what has been done - I think its crazy. Granted I didnt have all the cash to hand up front for the resto which he claims is why the cost is so high. He even says the paint is expensive due to a delay on the project etc.

I know I can have this done cheaper with the same quality. If I continue with this guy - I will have $140,000 in this boat - enough to buy a nice used 38' Top Gun.

Boat History - I know a guy that knows Dale Lucas (horse owner/breeder). He alleges that Dale and Don Aronow actually raced this boat in Miami in the day. It was named "HellCat". It is the 34th 20' Cig built and as you may know, Don Aronow liked the number "4" as he considered it lucky for him. Maybe thats why he used this boat to race in. The previous owner I got the boat from is presently contacting Dale Lucas for any pics etc. of Don Aronow and Dale Lucas in this boat. This would be some exciting provinance! Attached is a pic of the boat the day I towed it to be restored on the original trailer.

Also, I would like to see all the remaining 20' Cigarettes numbered. Mine was the 34th built - so a number 34 in a circle just like the offshore racing boats. That way we can see what production number the boat is and it would make it more exclusive - just a suggestion.

RockyS18
02-10-2013, 04:15 PM
From what I know $83,000 is an insane amount to be paying. The Lip Ship edition Cig 20s, which were brand new hulls, (they ordered the new hulls from Cigarette) cost about $120,000 total for a completely new boat.

I have previously seen a picture of your boat on the website of the person who is redoing it (I believe I read one of your posts on OSO). That's some really cool history, I've found that each one of these boats is slightly different and each is unique.

I like the number idea, unfortunately getting a bunch of owners to do that wouldn't be that easy.

scippy
02-10-2013, 07:01 PM
20cigdon,

I'm sure the storage fee alone (5 years) is killing ya! ....Listen, if your paying someone an hourly rate ($75 plus)
with no agreed upon time constraints to what this restoration can tally, then it's easy to see how you can roll up to
83K........I think I know your situation, I was there.........the phone calls went like this "sounds good, lets do it!!

20cigdon
02-10-2013, 07:03 PM
I think he is trying to make a museum piece out of my boat. He does quality work but I think he is charging me for every screw he turns etc. Unfortunately, I cant pull the plug on it now. Flying out of the country soon for 4 months. I called East Coast Performance and they said they would do it cheaper. They could not believe how much I have spent and the boat is not ready for rigging yet. Are there any places that would complete the boat and I pay payments? Thanks for the input

20cigdon
02-10-2013, 07:08 PM
I never did like the idea of paying storage while having the boat restored!Thats called pyramiding where I come from.

I'm sure the storage fee alone (5 years) is killing ya! ....Listen, if your paying someone an hourly rate ($75 plus)
with no agreed upon time constraints to what this restoration can tally, then it's easy to see how you can roll up to
83K........I think I know your situation, I was there.........the phone calls went like this "sounds good, lets do it!![/QUOTE]

scippy
02-10-2013, 07:20 PM
The problem is you have an open ended agreement......time keeps ticking and dollars keep adding up.
I saw your boat when I was there........sounds familiar,....Every screw, every nut!!

20cigdon
02-10-2013, 07:22 PM
I do have a few post on OSO. Glad you know who I am talking about. I will be over the $120,000 mark with this project. It will be a very nice boat but wont ever get the money back. I will have to spend more money on the lottery. I like the number idea also - at a glance you could see the production number of the boat your seeing.



From what I know $83,000 is an insane amount to be paying. The Lip Ship edition Cig 20s, which were brand new hulls, (they ordered the new hulls from Cigarette) cost about $120,000 total for a completely new boat.

I have previously seen a picture of your boat on the website of the person who is redoing it (I believe I read one of your posts on OSO). That's some really cool history, I've found that each one of these boats is slightly different and each is unique.

I like the number idea, unfortunately getting a bunch of owners to do that wouldn't be that easy.

BUIZILLA
02-10-2013, 08:07 PM
your paying storage while he's working on it??

seriously??

never, ever, ever, have I heard of that...

20cigdon
02-10-2013, 09:15 PM
Yes its true. I know - it is wrong to charge a client storage while restoration. I did not like this after I dropped the boat off but the tow up there is quite a hike from Baltimore. This guy wont be in business long - I am keeping his head out of water - for now



your paying storage while he's working on it??

seriously??

never, ever, ever, have I heard of that...

Morgan's Cloud
02-11-2013, 07:37 AM
IMO it's unprofessional , unbusinesslike and outright greedy to charge storage on top of having the resto job.

Anyone who would do this is probably going to absolutely t@il you on everything else that they're doing.

BUT , it is a very cool boat though .

mattyboy
02-11-2013, 07:44 AM
Doing one mostly yourself will run well north of 35k when all tallied up and that's just for back to original with no wild paint or power. Piece parting it out like having a wood worker duplicate all the teak in mahogany and installing it yourself, sending items out for refurb or rechrome. Rent on the facility misc sundries like beer and pizza not to mention other motor and boat parts. this is without paying yourself. BUT and it is a BIG BUT I never heard of storage on a project the faciltity is already charging for in a restoration. Like going to a bar getting a seat, laying out a few hundered and then they charge you for the barstool and your part of the cable tv bill as well as the booze. I mean the" hey it's ready you have a week to come get it or storage will be charged" is one thing this is something totally else.

20cigdon
02-11-2013, 10:44 AM
I think at $83,000, the boat should be ready at least for the engine, drive and steering by now. I love the boat and will complete the project anyway - no matter what. A year ago, the hull was painted and flipped down. After 12 months and $12,000 plus storage fees, the topside is still not done - 12G's to fix a lot of cracks and paint? Maybe crack cocaine is the cause?
I may have to pull it out of there and let somebody else do it later. Right now, I just decided to have him fill in the aft storage compartments since I plan on a BB in there.
Cant wait to attend future 20' Cigarette Ragatta's. I have communicated with Michael Aronow and he remembers my boat. I am hoping some pics materialize with Don Aronow and Dale Lucas racing the boat in the day via the previous owner.






IMO it's unprofessional , unbusinesslike and outright greedy to charge storage on top of having the resto job.

Anyone who would do this is probably going to absolutely t@il you on everything else that they're doing.

BUT , it is a very cool boat though .

Brian41
02-11-2013, 04:02 PM
Yes its true. I know - it is wrong to charge a client storage while restoration. I did not like this after I dropped the boat off but the tow up there is quite a hike from Baltimore. This guy wont be in business long - I am keeping his head out of water - for now


I would be happy to finish your boat for you and certainly would not be charging you storage during the work process.

Go to my website and look at some of my work, I am more than qualified to finish it no matter what its current state.

20cigdon
02-12-2013, 12:52 AM
Hello Brian - I checked out your site and all looks professional. My only problem is that I will be flying out of the country soon and really dont want to shell out the cash to have it towed etc. up to Michigan right now. I will be back in June and will make a move then. What is your hourly rate? I might call you tomorrow - Don


I would be happy to finish your boat for you and certainly would not be charging you storage during the work process.

Go to my website and look at some of my work, I am more than qualified to finish it no matter what its current state.

Carl C
02-12-2013, 07:41 AM
Hello Brian - I checked out your site and all looks professional. My only problem is that I will be flying out of the country soon and really dont want to shell out the cash to have it towed etc. up to Michigan right now. I will be back in June and will make a move then. What is your hourly rate? I might call you tomorrow - Don

Brian works on a lot of our boats including mine.

20cigdon
02-12-2013, 07:05 PM
I think at $83,000 the boat should be almost done. I will be looking at a used rebuilt engine using all high end parts. I really would love to pull it out of there - he does not deserve to finish it. I will be making some calls tomorrow. Thanks for the input everyone - it confirmed was I suspected - that I am getting screwed!


Doing one mostly yourself will run well north of 35k when all tallied up and that's just for back to original with no wild paint or power. Piece parting it out like having a wood worker duplicate all the teak in mahogany and installing it yourself, sending items out for refurb or rechrome. Rent on the facility misc sundries like beer and pizza not to mention other motor and boat parts. this is without paying yourself. BUT and it is a BIG BUT I never heard of storage on a project the faciltity is already charging for in a restoration. Like going to a bar getting a seat, laying out a few hundered and then they charge you for the barstool and your part of the cable tv bill as well as the booze. I mean the" hey it's ready you have a week to come get it or storage will be charged" is one thing this is something totally else.

20cigdon
02-14-2013, 06:19 PM
I talked with Brian at Orlandi Performance today and was I impressed enough to pull the plug on my restoration at Lakeside. Time to take another direction before I am at $150,000 +. Brian will be picking up my boat on March 2nd if I am unable to tow it myself. :banghead:



Brian works on a lot of our boats including mine.

Just Say N20
02-14-2013, 06:37 PM
Hope springs eternal. Just to toss this out there, and I have not been reading the whole thread, but I had my 16 repainted. 84 hours of prep time to get the hull ready, paint, clearcoat and buffing out to glass smooth with a white hull/deck with yellow side stripes and black accent stripes: $5,600.

But I did all the work on the inside of the hull (stringers, etc).

Carl C
02-14-2013, 07:51 PM
Sounds good. I need to call Brian soon and get some welding work down there to him.

20cigdon
02-14-2013, 10:47 PM
But I have 3'-6" more than you so that accounts for the $77,400 :eek!:.... any project is worthwhile if you can do most of it yourself. I work as a licensed Marine Engineer in the Merchant Marine so I am out of the country a lot and I have a lot of mechanical experience - no experience on fiberglass work etc.



Hope springs eternal. Just to toss this out there, and I have not been reading the whole thread, but I had my 16 repainted. 84 hours of prep time to get the hull ready, paint, clearcoat and buffing out to glass smooth with a white hull/deck with yellow side stripes and black accent stripes: $5,600.

But I did all the work on the inside of the hull (stringers, etc).

roadtrip se
02-14-2013, 11:18 PM
I talked with Brian at Orlandi Performance today and was I impressed enough to pull the plug on my restoration at Lakeside. Time to take another direction before I am at $150,000 +. Brian will be picking up my boat on March 2nd if I am unable to tow it myself. :banghead:

Good call! You need to make the trip, if possible. Once you see the shop and some of the results that have come out of it, mine included, you will know you are in good hands.

John C in PA
02-15-2013, 09:54 AM
I talked with Brian at Orlandi Performance today and was I impressed enough to pull the plug on my restoration at Lakeside. Time to take another direction before I am at $150,000 +. Brian will be picking up my boat on March 2nd if I am unable to tow it myself. :banghead:

20Cig, I'm only 2 hours from Lakeside and would pick up your boat to save you some tow time but if Jamie and I see each other again I may end up in a fist fight. He did a lot of work, most good and some sh#t (s@#t), on my Sweet 16 (at $95/hr not $75) but continuously tried to add to the price. I paid him several hundred bucks to store my boat in his shop for a Winter and he charged me in the Spring to clamp a charger on the now-flat battery.

I would have Orlandi thoroughly check the work already done too. I never posted pix of the crappy cockpit cover he crafted(?). I have more issues, but you seem to have found out for yourself.

John C

20cigdon
02-15-2013, 12:11 PM
Awesome John -if you could tow the boat and parts - that would save me a lot of time & money! I would still pay you for your time. Brian at Orlandi Performance can tow it but that is a lot of driving for him and a lot of cost to me. My brand new trailer does not have a tag. I will look into getting one if you dont have one to use. Call me at 410-963-3521 or donseadrive@aol.com



20Cig, I'm only 2 hours from Lakeside and would pick up your boat to save you some tow time but if Jamie and I see each other again I may end up in a fist fight. He did a lot of work, most good and some sh#t, on my Sweet 16 (at $95/hr not $75) but continuously tried to add to the price. I paid him several hundred bucks to store my boat in his shop for a Winter and he charged me in the Spring to clamp a charger on the now-flat battery.

I would have Orlandi thoroughly check the work already done too. I never posted pix of the crappy cockpit cover he crafted(?). I have more issues, but you seem to have found out for yourself.

John C

John C in PA
02-15-2013, 04:00 PM
20CigDon, I actually wasn't kidding about a fist fight. He pissed me off with his "not my fault" reply to the pictures I sent him of the cr#ppy cockpit cover he made. And for which I paid $720 plus tax. I'll never set foot on Lakeside property again. HOWEVER, if you and he could reach an agreement where he would leave the rig and such outside of his gate maybe I can help you out.

John C

610-737-2778
jaycee48@rcn.com

PS: did he tell you yet that all of your phone calls have been recorded and he will use them to dispute your complaints? And his wife is a lawyer? Intimidation factors, if you ask me!

LKSD
02-15-2013, 07:54 PM
Hi Everyone.. yes I still lurk here. However I like many others have grown tired of the "chit" stirring of a few & deemed it not worth my time to participate in many discussions here as a rule..

A few things before I make a few responses & clarifications..

Some people cannot be made happy no matter how far you go or try. I can say that over many years I have made Many many people happy..

Also there is as the sane, intelligent & rational people know, 2 sides or more to nearly every story. I can when it comes to business substantiate mine as well as what I bill... FACT...

Some people should also be careful of what they say, some things can be defaming, slanderous & threatening.. That can cause un-needed repercussions if it continues...

Jamie / Lakeside Restorations.....

LKSD
02-15-2013, 07:57 PM
your paying storage while he's working on it??

seriously??

never, ever, ever, have I heard of that...

Jim,

You & I do know each other and have talked many time over the years.. While you and I may not always agree on some things, I can tell you there is more going on here than meets the eye..

Jamie / Lakeside Restorations

LKSD
02-15-2013, 08:08 PM
I think at $83,000, the boat should be ready at least for the engine, drive and steering by now. I love the boat and will complete the project anyway - no matter what. A year ago, the hull was painted and flipped down. After 12 months and $12,000 plus storage fees, the topside is still not done - 12G's to fix a lot of cracks and paint? Maybe crack cocaine is the cause?
I may have to pull it out of there and let somebody else do it later. Right now, I just decided to have him fill in the aft storage compartments since I plan on a BB in there.
Cant wait to attend future 20' Cigarette Ragatta's. I have communicated with Michael Aronow and he remembers my boat. I am hoping some pics materialize with Don Aronow and Dale Lucas racing the boat in the day via the previous owner.

Don,

Without bringing un-needed drama here....

You & I both know there was no such charge of 83K for paint work.. There was however A new custom trailer, some interior items, windshield, special order teaks, Custom made vents, gauge packs, countless hours in going over very extensive glass damage, custom fuel cell, Mag Transom assembly & countless other items of both regular & custom fabricated nature..

As far as storage, you bet.. You would have me do things in spurts & then set on the side & slowed down all at your request over the past several years. If you didnt want to store or you wanted outside, you knew the options I had given you. Also you had asked for it to be stored in between..

All documented & authorized..

No crack or cocaine here & I don't appreciate that type of comment.. It is uncalled for.. Period..

What ever your decision, it is your business and I wish you the best of luck where ever you go..

Jamie / Lakeside Restorations

LKSD
02-15-2013, 08:13 PM
20CigDon, I actually wasn't kidding about a fist fight. He pissed me off with his "not my fault" reply to the pictures I sent him of the cr#ppy cockpit cover he made. And for which I paid $720 plus tax. I'll never set foot on Lakeside property again. HOWEVER, if you and he could reach an agreement where he would leave the rig and such outside of his gate maybe I can help you out.

John C

610-737-2778
jaycee48@rcn.com

PS: did he tell you yet that all of your phone calls have been recorded and he will use them to dispute your complaints? And his wife is a lawyer? Intimidation factors, if you ask me!


John,

You are correct in how I legally authorize my work requested of me.. I do it because of people like you & the way you acted here..

You also know that things are NOT and were not all as you are eluding to, as again I can prove.. FACT..

You are also correct in that you are NOT welcome at my facility. Especially when threatening a fight or bodily harm. The threat is again uncalled for & un-needed. I suggest you DO Not continue onward..

Jamie / Lakeside Restorations

John C in PA
02-15-2013, 09:09 PM
I apologize RockyS18, the OP, for stepping on your thread. When 20CigDon mentioned paying for storage I instinctively knew who he was referring to and my anger over the cockpit cover incident got the best of me. I'll wait until someone asks about cockpit covers to post my pictures.


John C :biggrin:

LKSD
02-15-2013, 09:28 PM
I think at $83,000, the boat should be ready at least for the engine, drive and steering by now. I love the boat and will complete the project anyway - no matter what. A year ago, the hull was painted and flipped down. After 12 months and $12,000 plus storage fees, the topside is still not done - 12G's to fix a lot of cracks and paint? Maybe crack cocaine is the cause?
I may have to pull it out of there and let somebody else do it later. Right now, I just decided to have him fill in the aft storage compartments since I plan on a BB in there.
Cant wait to attend future 20' Cigarette Ragatta's. I have communicated with Michael Aronow and he remembers my boat. I am hoping some pics materialize with Don Aronow and Dale Lucas racing the boat in the day via the previous owner.

Don,

We both know there was no charge for 83k of glass work..

You seem to be neglecting to remember things like a custom ordered painted trailer, Some interior items, Specially ordered teaks, custom cnc'd hardware, chroming, custom fuel cell, Mag transom unit, trs to bravo transom conversion, things like gauge packs, a custom replacement windshield, Thousands of cracks & extreme amount of glass work though out the entire boat.. Painting the hull & bottom. And many many other things and items.. All of which was authorized & documents.. Fact.

There was charges at times for storage, The boat project was slowed many times by you at your request over the past several years. You had also requested it to be stored inside when not being worked on and in between other things.

No crack or cocaine here & I dont appreciate the comment. It is uncalled for..

Regardless, I wish you the best in where ever you decide to go..

Jamie / Lakeside Restorations.......

20cigdon
02-15-2013, 09:47 PM
Hello everyone -

This thread is better than "Jerry Springer":biggrin: - Lets all be adults here. I am sure there are reasonable arguments on both sides. I am just looking to get my boat, parts towed and start a new direction on my restoration. Frankly, I am pulling the plug because I feel I am spending too much with minimal results. This is not defaming - its how I feel - simple as that. When I feel it, it is usually right. I have spent $83,000 on a 20' boat restoration and its no where near completion. I talked with Cigarette in 2006 and they quoted me $45,000. At the time I thought that was a lot - man was I wrong. Yes - I do have concerns and rightfully so.
It would be most helpful if John could tow it but now it does not look that this will happen. I am presently looking at other options since Jamie will not allow John on the premises. John - I appreciate your offer even though I dont know you. Still looking forward to the Cig/Donzi regatta`s etc.
Cig Don




I apologize RockyS18, the OP, for stepping on your thread. When 20CigDon mentioned paying for storage I instinctively knew who he was referring to and my anger over the cockpit cover incident got the best of me. I'll wait until someone asks about cockpit covers to post my pictures.


John C :^)

Ed Donnelly
02-16-2013, 04:03 AM
John C in PA I am interested in cockpit covers..

But a firm price... I may be willing to trade for a pair of 2 piece valve covers that I got screwed over with.....Ed

Brian41
02-16-2013, 08:19 AM
Jamie,
These situations come up some times in business and they are part of what we do, lets keep it civil and get this handled like professionals. Don informed me that the parts would be palletized and boat ready for pickup on March 2 2013. I would like to keep to this schedule so we can all move forward.

Regards Brian

LKSD
02-16-2013, 09:28 AM
Jamie,
These situations come up some times in business and they are part of what we do, lets keep it civil and get this handled like professionals. Don informed me that the parts would be palletized and boat ready for pickup on March 2 2013. I would like to keep to this schedule so we can all move forward.

Regards Brian

Brian,

I do agree. As I mentioned earlier there is usually more than one side to a story & there is a much bigger picture behind the scenes that is not shown here.. I can say at this point I am not sad to see it leave..

Anyway, I have no problem with you & I look forward to meeting you.. :)

Yes I should have the stuff moved over/out for then, this week was just too hectic to get all of the stuff together & it was all blocked in here.. Just to prep you, everything will be boxed neatly for you, but if you are picking everything up you will need a truck with a lot of space..

Hopefully you will at least get to finish the project & it will go smoother for you.. It would be nice to see the boat finished at some point & on the water.. They are a nice boat..

If your phone # is different from that in your signature here please let me know.. I will call you to firm up a pick up time & I will PM you my contact info as well in case Don hasn't gotten a chance to do it yet....

If you have any questions feel free to call me.. :)

Have a good weekend.. :) Jamie / Lakeside

LKSD
02-16-2013, 09:33 AM
John C in PA I am interested in cockpit covers..

But a firm price... I may be willing to trade for a pair of 2 piece valve covers that I got screwed over with.....Ed


Wow, Really.. I remember that.. Pretty funny.. You got just what you ordered & it was you in fact that was trying to screw me over on the import tax into your country that you were responsible for.. I still have the paperwork on it..

Jamie / Lakeside Restorations

Ed Donnelly
02-16-2013, 01:21 PM
Jamie; I have no problem getting into a pi--ing match with you.

You quoted me a price shipped to Canada

But your quoted price went up a couple of hundred

You made out like a bandit that you are.

I don't recall mentioning your name in that post
yet you knew it was you????

You have only sold 1 set of 2 piece valve covers and I was the lucky one?..Ed

John C in PA
02-16-2013, 02:13 PM
John C in PA I am interested in cockpit covers..

But a firm price... I may be willing to trade for a pair of 2 piece valve covers that I got screwed over with.....Ed

Ed, as much as the cockpit cover on my Sweet 16 pisses me off :cussball: every time I snap it on (pretty easy since it doesn't fit tightly between snaps like all the others I've ever seen do) and I'm trying to get rid of it I doubt it's gonna fit your 22 :D. And the color is teal. If you are still interested I can post details and pictures with FACTS.


John C :p

LKSD
02-16-2013, 05:44 PM
Jamie; I have no problem getting into a pi--ing match with you.

You quoted me a price shipped to Canada

But your quoted price went up a couple of hundred

You made out like a bandit that you are.

I don't recall mentioning your name in that post
yet you knew it was you????

You have only sold 1 set of 2 piece valve covers and I was the lucky one?..Ed

What a load of BS.. I billed you what you authorized. I never over billed you or pulled a fast one & I can prove it.. I told you that is was more to ship to Canada.. But call it what it is.. you just didn't evidentally want to pay the import taxes in your country.. That's ok neither did I, but you tried to stick me with your bill according to fed ex & the records I have from them..

That's all I have to say you can continue the pizzing match on your own..

Jamie / Lakeside

Ed Donnelly
02-16-2013, 10:48 PM
FU and have a nice life Jamie. Crawl back in your hole.

Over and out.............................Ed

Ed Donnelly
02-16-2013, 10:50 PM
Ed, as much as the cockpit cover on my Sweet 16 pisses me off :cussball: every time I snap it on (pretty easy since it doesn't fit tightly between snaps like all the others I've ever seen do) and I'm trying to get rid of it I doubt it's gonna fit your 22 :D. And the color is teal. If you are still interested I can post details and pictures with FACTS.


John C :p

Please post the pics as I have a friend with a teal 22 that might be interested....Ed

LKSD
02-17-2013, 09:00 AM
FU and have a nice life Jamie. Crawl back in your hole.

Over and out.............................Ed

Same to you sunshine.. :)

John C in PA
02-20-2013, 10:32 PM
Please post the pics as I have a friend with a teal 22 that might be interested....Ed

Ed D., here are the cockpit cover pictures you asked about. To tell you the truth if your friend is interested I would sell it for practically nothing, even tho the material is Sunbrella, just to get this $720 POS off my boat.

First pic shows the poor fit between snaps, the gapping of the cover generally even with the center pole, and the 3" gap between the top of the wheel and the wheel cover. The second pic shows the bumps between snaps in the rear section. The last pic shows the way I found the hole cut for the center pole/vent. I didn't bother to take pix of the poorly fit edging.

Do you think your friend would buy this?

John C

747007470174702

Ed Donnelly
02-21-2013, 01:18 AM
John; Thanks for the pics. Showed my friend and he said he would pass regardless of the discounted price...Sorry...Ed

John C in PA
02-21-2013, 10:18 AM
I don't blame him Ed. Who wants a classic boat with a crap lookin' cover :toiletpap? I went to a custom shop yesterday and he said it was an amateur mistake how the snaps were located and there was no way to save my cover. I'm going to have the custom shop make a tonneau cover for me. You're old enough like me to remember the old sports car tonneau covers which have a zipper to allow me to expose only the drivers seat. Hope to see you in June at the River.

John C

VetteLT193
02-21-2013, 11:32 AM
I don't blame him Ed. Who wants a classic boat with a crap lookin' cover :toiletpap? I went to a custom shop yesterday and he said it was an amateur mistake how the snaps were located and there was no way to save my cover. I'm going to have the custom shop make a tonneau cover for me. You're old enough like me to remember the old sports car tonneau covers which have a zipper to allow me to expose only the drivers seat. Hope to see you in June at the River.

John C

FYI:


Donzidirect has one like you describe for $475. https://www.donzidirect.com/canvas/canvas-cockpit-cover-ski-sporter-16-yellow-black.html The normal one is 325. https://www.donzidirect.com/canvas/canvas-cockpit-cover-donzi-16-classic-no-windshield.html

John C in PA
02-21-2013, 11:51 AM
Way ahead of you Buddy. Although Josh has these shown on his webpage, when I tried to order one he advised me that his maker has health problems and he doesn't know when he will be able to ship again. Josh recommened I use a local shop to make what I want.

John C

CHACHI
02-21-2013, 12:49 PM
John, you may want to start another thread.

No need to hijack.

I like your idea, but then why wouldn't I.

Ken

John C in PA
02-21-2013, 01:22 PM
John, you may want to start another thread. No need to hijack. I like your idea, but then why wouldn't I. Ken

You are correct kind Sir. Brain fade. Er, what were you asking :rlol: ?

John C

RockyS18
02-21-2013, 08:55 PM
John, you may want to start another thread.

No need to hijack.

Ken

I'd appreciate it if we could get back to the topic of Cig 20's on this thread rather than talking about selling boat covers and such. Thanks

20cigdon
02-21-2013, 09:50 PM
I talked about my 20' Cig and the next thing I knew - I was on the Jerry Springer show :embarasse


I'd appreciate it if we could get back to the topic of Cig 20's on this thread rather than talking about selling boat covers and such. Thanks

Ed Donnelly
02-22-2013, 05:13 AM
Mea culpa......Ed

undertaker
02-22-2013, 09:11 AM
I'd appreciate it if we could get back to the topic of Cig 20's on this thread rather than talking about selling boat covers and such. Thanks

Rocky any new news on your Cig 20 project? Love these boats and am just curious on your progress:cool!:


:pimp:

Sweet Cheekz
02-22-2013, 09:16 AM
. misc sundries like beer and pizza .


This can be a big factor during a long day of grinding.
:eek!::eek!::eek!:


Parnell

FWIW Where there is smoke there is fire.

RockyS18
02-22-2013, 09:19 AM
Rocky any new news on your Cig 20 project? Love these boats and am just curious on your progress:cool!:


:pimp:

Unfortunately there's no new news, it is still at the shop getting some of the holes filled in.

The plan for the engine has changed however. The 496 is getting Dana headers and a Whipple stage 2 kit (no supercharger, its just an ecm remap and a low temp thermostat.) the 496 already has the K&N filter. It should be putting out low 500's hp at the crank afterwards.

Carl C
02-22-2013, 09:31 AM
Unfortunately there's no new news, it is still at the shop getting some of the holes filled in.

The plan for the engine has changed however. The 496 is getting Dana headers and a Whipple stage 2 kit (no supercharger, its just an ecm remap and a low temp thermostat.) the 496 already has the K&N filter. It should be putting out low 500's hp at the crank afterwards.

Don't bet on it. CMI headers and free flowing spark arrester did absolutely nothing for my old 496. I can't see tweaking the ecm giving you that kind of power increase and it's probably not a good idea to lean it out anyway. I would not spend a penny on that engine until you can discuss this with Brian Orlandi. The boat is still going to him isn't it?

RockyS18
02-22-2013, 09:35 AM
Don't bet on it. CMI headers and free flowing spark arrester did absolutely nothing for my old 496. I can't see tweaking the ecm giving you that kind of power increase and it's probably not a good idea to lean it out anyway. I would not spend a penny on that engine until you can discuss this with Brian Orlandi. The boat is still going to him isn't it?

No, the boat has never been going to Brian Orlandi we are doing the restoration ourselves minus the hole filling.

I'll ask jtr2kwl to chime in, he did the research on the performance upgrades.

Carl C
02-22-2013, 09:49 AM
No, the boat has never been going to Brian Orlandi we are doing the restoration ourselves minus the hole filling.

I'll ask jtr2kwl to chime in, he did the research on the performance upgrades.

Wow, this thread really got derailed! It needs about 5 pages removed. That's another Cig 20! Be leery of big performance and power increases on paper. They don't always show up in the real world. I would still rethink the 496 thing and I am talking from experience here. Good luck with your project and keeping your thread back on topic!

undertaker
02-22-2013, 09:50 AM
Be REAL curious myself on the 496 mods....cause I already have the Dana exhaust and K&N filter.....however not thinking those mods will get you 500HP...please keep us posted :)

20cigdon
02-22-2013, 11:02 AM
Brian Orlandi will be picking up my 20' Cigarette boat on March 2nd. Planning on a BB carbureted 600+ hp, XR drive, 280S K-planes. Trying to keep the boat as original as possible. Probably wont be done this spring unless I sell one of my antique Harleys. I might sell my 1982 HD FLH w/ only 3800 original miles to complete this project. :rolleyes:

jtr2kwl
03-06-2013, 12:15 AM
Hi All,

Thought I'd finally chime in after being away from this board for way too long. Things have just been busy with work, and the start to a new year as well as a broken collarbone about 6 weeks ago! A special thanks to Rocky for posting in my absence! I guess I won't kick your ass for a while...

Progress:

So far things have progressed well on the cig...its completely stripped! The boat has been taken out the door and is with Performance Marine in bolton, ny right now. I stopped by to see it this weekend, and things are looking good. The transom has been plugged and rebuilt, the back seat which is cut out has been glassed back in. I've decided to try and keep the tubs on either side of the engine compartment for now; they can't hurt! Last but not least, the tank was pulled on monday, and a new one will be built. At this point, perfmar has some cosmetic work that they should be completing, and then the boat will be ready for paint.

I have pics but am unable to upload them now, will try to get more up soon.


Power:

As Rocky mentioned, we've gone thru many idea's when it comes to power for the boat. Ultimately we've decided to stick with the 496/1x package. I'm aware of another boat that had a similar package and under good conditions was seeing upper 70's. I guess that remains to be seen. I have done a bit of research, and there are a few performance upgrades I'm considering. Very interested in upgrading to Dana headers. They claim as much as a 55 hp increase. As always, many refute the actual improvement of upgrading headers on these motors, but it seems most who have done the upgrade have seen at least some improvement and have been happy with it. And they come in Red so that obviously boosts hp by about 17 haha! Note for these motors, upgrading the headers also requires an adjustable fuel pressure regulator so as to not lean out the motor. Also very interested in the Whipple Stage 2 upgrade. This is an ECM remap (not a supercharger!), which whipple advertises as a 7-10% increase in power. Again, will I actually see a 10% increase? I guess we'll see, but again most seem to be happy with the results of the stage 2 upgrade. Hopefully the combination of headers and stage 2 upgrade will create a mean little 496!


Things I am currently looking into/have questions about:

The Cig needs a new TRAILER. Looking for a bunk style, tandem trailer. Thinking about reaching out to Performance Trailer, also here in lake george. However, as I'm aware, they only do custom job's and may be a bit out of my price range. Recommendations?

I've been planning on putting on 280s K-planes. I know lip ship has generally put 380s on their boats, and i've seen a great many others with 380s. It's a big tab for a little boat, but it lip ship has their **** together...does anyone have any experience with the different tabs on these boats?

When I bought the boat, one of the things I really loved about it was the interior. It had been recently reupholstered in red, and looks great! Downside....I'm not sure who the hell did it, but there's little to no cushion! This boat likes to JUMP! So i've been considering a new interior...Again, absolutely love the interiors on the Lip ship boats, and would love to see about having somethign similar made. I have a particular 20 in mind with an interior that I'd copy...as I'm aware it was done by Fineline Interiors in FLA. As I'm also aware, they're pricey! has anyone done any similar type of interior upgrades, or familiar withthe work of anyone more local to lake george?

Hatch Scoops...I love the hatch scoops on this boat! Unfortunately, due to the prior saltwater use with this boat, there is a bit of corrosion. Also unfortunately, upon removal, we discovered that the scoops are made of plastic! Would anyone know where I could find 6 similar scoops to replace them with?


As always, any input from those with experience with these 20's is greatly appreciated...lets have at it!

And lastly, I can't recall if I filled everyone in on the dramatic story on the acquistion of the boat that Rocky mentioned in the first thread...I'm happy to put up another post to elaborate. But, as a general note...stay away from south florida transporter!!

Holy Smokes
03-06-2013, 12:21 AM
Wow! just spent 20 minutes going thru this great thread. Like someone said, looks like we could delete pages 3-7 or so. Regardless, what you guys are doing on the 20 is priceless. It's great to see these boats restored and made even better than when they left Cigarette.

I have a 20 as well. Hull #28 made in early 1974. The boat is mostly original with some updated vinyl and basic gauges done by a previous owner and paint somewhere along the way. I bought it out of the Minneapolis area 1 1/2 years ago where it had set for over 3 years. It still has what I believe the original SBC with merctrans and TRS drive. To date, all I've done so far is replace the original mahogany deck stripe with teak, new full cover, go through the drive and have a custom trailer fabricated. I had planned to dive into the engine, gauges and wiring this off-season, but we ended up buying a lake house instead (damn the luck!). I will likely run the 20 again this season like it is and re-start plans for some off-season updates.

Please keep the updates coming, and I won't wait three months to log back in and check it out!

Here's a few pics...

dsparis
03-06-2013, 10:10 AM
great looking cig

20cigdon
03-06-2013, 03:14 PM
Wow! Nice looking boat! I apologize to everyone of me stepping on this thread but I had to ask some questions concerning my project and man did I get some positive feedback - from many. I hope my input here can be educational to others and hopefully prevent what I just experienced. Brian Orlandi now has my boat and it looks like he will have to fix a lot of deficiencies that I have already paid for that was suppose to be done correctly - I will just leave it at that. I would post pictures but it would be most embarrasing to say the least.



Wow! just spent 20 minutes going thru this great thread. Like someone said, looks like we could delete pages 3-7 or so. Regardless, what you guys are doing on the 20 is priceless. It's great to see these boats restored and made even better than when they left Cigarette.

I have a 20 as well. Hull #28 made in early 1974. The boat is mostly original with some updated vinyl and basic gauges done by a previous owner and paint somewhere along the way. I bought it out of the Minneapolis area 1 1/2 years ago where it had set for over 3 years. It still has what I believe the original SBC with merctrans and TRS drive. To date, all I've done so far is replace the original mahogany deck stripe with teak, new full cover, go through the drive and have a custom trailer fabricated. I had planned to dive into the engine, gauges and wiring this off-season, but we ended up buying a lake house instead (damn the luck!). I will likely run the 20 again this season like it is and re-start plans for some off-season updates.

Please keep the updates coming, and I won't wait three months to log back in and check it out!

Here's a few pics...

20cigdon
03-06-2013, 03:18 PM
You already had the 20' Cig and now you have the Lake House - good time to buy and now you have both. In due time the boat will be done the way you like it.


Wow! Nice looking boat! I apologize to everyone of me stepping on this thread but I had to ask some questions concerning my project and man did I get some positive feedback - from many. I hope my input here can be educational to others and hopefully prevent what I just experienced. Brian Orlandi now has my boat and it looks like he will have to fix a lot of deficiencies that I have already paid for that was suppose to be done correctly - I will just leave it at that. I would post pictures but it would be most embarrasing to say the least.

RockyS18
03-06-2013, 05:14 PM
Awesome boat Holy Smokes, I love how original and well kept it looks. And the color is great.

update: the Cig should be finished up with the hole filling in ~1 week. jtr2kwl made a post on this thread yesterday but it is doing the approval thing so it hasn't shown up yet.

BUIZILLA
03-06-2013, 09:16 PM
I like that...

a LOT

very nice

20cigdon
03-06-2013, 09:25 PM
I feel the early 20' Cigs should be kept as original looking as possible but with updated power, gauges etc. - the ultimate sleeper for the water. Love the pics! Keep them coming


Awesome boat Holy Smokes, I love how original and well kept it looks. And the color is great.

update: the Cig should be finished up with the hole filling in ~1 week. jtr2kwl made a post on this thread yesterday but it is doing the approval thing so it hasn't shown up yet.

Holy Smokes
03-06-2013, 11:17 PM
I feel the early 20' Cigs should be kept as original looking as possible but with updated power, gauges etc. - the ultimate sleeper for the water. Love the pics! Keep them coming

I think that is just where I'll end up. Hoping for near 400hp from this original SBC with updated helm/wiring then follow with paint & interior thereafter.

rr1048
03-07-2013, 01:41 AM
The boat is beautiful and the color is perfect. Was this the color from the factory?
What was the process to replacing the teak deck stripe? Did you do the wood fab and install? I need to replace my de k stripe and looking for some ideas or reccomentations.

Good luck with the lake house and 20'

Randy

mattyboy
03-07-2013, 07:37 AM
RR

shot my your email in a PM I just found a ton of pics from the wood replacement on the cig 19 red mahogany was used stained and varnished holds up very well and looks awesome also used some different hardware than the factory to hold it down

RockyS18
03-07-2013, 05:19 PM
A special thanks to Rocky for posting in my absence! I guess I won't kick your ass for a while...


Thanks, that's really nice of you...

Anyway, his post went through its on the previous page.

Holy Smokes
03-07-2013, 05:41 PM
The boat is beautiful and the color is perfect. Was this the color from the factory?
What was the process to replacing the teak deck stripe? Did you do the wood fab and install? I need to replace my de k stripe and looking for some ideas or reccomentations.

Good luck with the lake house and 20'

Randy

Yes, it appears the blue is the original factory color.

The deck stripe was relatively easy as long as you have the right tools. Or, in my case, a buddy with a decked-out wood shop. I pulled the original weathered wood and planed down new teak to match thickness then slightly routed the bottom edges to match the contour of the fiberglass/gel. I used the old pieces as templates to cut to size and locate all the holes. You have to be careful with handling because the inserts are only like 1/4" thick. I like Watco teak oil to treat the teak, so I hit it with a couple coats and went boating!

Holy Smokes
03-07-2013, 06:02 PM
Trailer - I had mine custom made here in MO. Long ways away from NY but I'm sure they retained the dimensions and could make one and have it shipped out, as long as steel trailer is what you're looking for. PM me for the cost I paid.

Vents - Perko makes one that's chrome plated zinc that I had used on a '79 Cig I used to own.
http://www.go2marine.com/product/27100F/perko-cowl-ventilator-vent.html


For the interior, you could probably find a local upholsterer pull the skins, insert new foam and replace the vinyl. Check the local hot rod builders for quality interior work. Otherwise, send it to Premier Performance in FL for a top quality job. Here's a shot of some logos they did and I had a local interior guy incorporate.748507485174852

undertaker
03-07-2013, 10:02 PM
Hi All,

Thought I'd finally chime in after being away from this board for way too long. Things have just been busy with work, and the start to a new year as well as a broken collarbone about 6 weeks ago! A special thanks to Rocky for posting in my absence! I guess I won't kick your ass for a while...

Progress:

So far things have progressed well on the cig...its completely stripped! The boat has been taken out the door and is with Performance Marine in bolton, ny right now. I stopped by to see it this weekend, and things are looking good. The transom has been plugged and rebuilt, the back seat which is cut out has been glassed back in. I've decided to try and keep the tubs on either side of the engine compartment for now; they can't hurt! Last but not least, the tank was pulled on monday, and a new one will be built. At this point, perfmar has some cosmetic work that they should be completing, and then the boat will be ready for paint.

I have pics but am unable to upload them now, will try to get more up soon.


Power:

As Rocky mentioned, we've gone thru many idea's when it comes to power for the boat. Ultimately we've decided to stick with the 496/1x package. I'm aware of another boat that had a similar package and under good conditions was seeing upper 70's. I guess that remains to be seen. I have done a bit of research, and there are a few performance upgrades I'm considering. Very interested in upgrading to Dana headers. They claim as much as a 55 hp increase. As always, many refute the actual improvement of upgrading headers on these motors, but it seems most who have done the upgrade have seen at least some improvement and have been happy with it. And they come in Red so that obviously boosts hp by about 17 haha! Note for these motors, upgrading the headers also requires an adjustable fuel pressure regulator so as to not lean out the motor. Also very interested in the Whipple Stage 2 upgrade. This is an ECM remap (not a supercharger!), which whipple advertises as a 7-10% increase in power. Again, will I actually see a 10% increase? I guess we'll see, but again most seem to be happy with the results of the stage 2 upgrade. Hopefully the combination of headers and stage 2 upgrade will create a mean little 496!


Things I am currently looking into/have questions about:

The Cig needs a new TRAILER. Looking for a bunk style, tandem trailer. Thinking about reaching out to Performance Trailer, also here in lake george. However, as I'm aware, they only do custom job's and may be a bit out of my price range. Recommendations?

I've been planning on putting on 280s K-planes. I know lip ship has generally put 380s on their boats, and i've seen a great many others with 380s. It's a big tab for a little boat, but it lip ship has their **** together...does anyone have any experience with the different tabs on these boats?

When I bought the boat, one of the things I really loved about it was the interior. It had been recently reupholstered in red, and looks great! Downside....I'm not sure who the hell did it, but there's little to no cushion! This boat likes to JUMP! So i've been considering a new interior...Again, absolutely love the interiors on the Lip ship boats, and would love to see about having somethign similar made. I have a particular 20 in mind with an interior that I'd copy...as I'm aware it was done by Fineline Interiors in FLA. As I'm also aware, they're pricey! has anyone done any similar type of interior upgrades, or familiar withthe work of anyone more local to lake george?

Hatch Scoops...I love the hatch scoops on this boat! Unfortunately, due to the prior saltwater use with this boat, there is a bit of corrosion. Also unfortunately, upon removal, we discovered that the scoops are made of plastic! Would anyone know where I could find 6 similar scoops to replace them with?


As always, any input from those with experience with these 20's is greatly appreciated...lets have at it!

And lastly, I can't recall if I filled everyone in on the dramatic story on the acquistion of the boat that Rocky mentioned in the first thread...I'm happy to put up another post to elaborate. But, as a general note...stay away from south florida transporter!!

Thanks for the update....I have the same set up on my 22 classic 496 bravo x with the polished Dana headers and fuel pressure regulator. To be honest really saw no top end gain but did notice some in the midrange however they do add some nice bling so I am fine with the upgrade. Curious to see what you think of the whipple kit...keep us posted.

Dr Dan and Scott Pearson have performance trailers and they are sweet I would seriously give them a look at, they are priced reasonable for a custom trailer IMO. I have a painted MYCO under my 22 also a nice trailer but they ain't cheap, performance trailers are a good option. PM Dr Dan if you need more info (pricing, options etc.)

If you have questions about lip ship and there interiors give them a call I have met Phil at the lake Cumberland event and he is a cool dude sure he or someone there could steer you in a good direction.

Keep us posted on our progress I love these 20's maybe someday we will add one to the stable :biggrin:

Undertaker

rvander68
03-10-2013, 10:19 PM
Hi All,

Hatch Scoops...I love the hatch scoops on this boat! Unfortunately, due to the prior saltwater use with this boat, there is a bit of corrosion. Also unfortunately, upon removal, we discovered that the scoops are made of plastic! Would anyone know where I could find 6 similar scoops to replace them with?




Hi jtr2kwl,
Check out this link for some hatch scoops: http://www.perko.com/catalog/category/ventilators/product/239/

I replaced the plastic versions with these and they look great. They are all metal construction with great chrome plating. I probably still have 4 of the plastic one laying around somewhere, but I would recommend these perko. Not the best picture, but you should be able to get the idea. Bought them through West Marine.

rr1048
03-13-2013, 10:43 PM
RR

shot my your email in a PM I just found a ton of pics from the wood replacement on the cig 19 red mahogany was used stained and varnished holds up very well and looks awesome also used some different hardware than the factory to hold it down

Awesome finish! I was interested in how you thru bolted the mahogany and did not use any screws and plugs like the factory.

I will have some work cut out for me when I tackle the deck stripe.

Thanks for the great photo.

On another topic, did you encounter loose foam pieces under the deck as flotation? Did you replace after the restoration or leave them out? If you did not replace did you use a alternate for the flotation?

mattyboy
03-14-2013, 09:16 AM
+1 on the performance trailer, Bill has done a trailer for the black cig 19 so he might have the dimensions on hand but most of the time he wants the boat so it is a perfect fit. they are a pleasure around the ramp and they become part of the tow vehicle on the road.


the deck stripe was attached via studs about 2 inches long and had wood screw threads on one side and machined threads on the other. we lined up the old stripe with the new stripe and drilled pilot holes for the studs then drilled the old screw holes on the deck. we did a dry fit then used some 4200 sealant then used washers an nylock nutz on the underside of the deck. came out nice.


the cig 19 is the same boat same length as the 20 but when the uscg mandated flotation foam on anything 19 feet and under in 73 they called it a 20 after that. So the cig 19 had only foam around the tank I was always lucky to not have to go under the deck and crawl across the tank. The boat when purchased new was a little rough around the edges, looked like it was thrown together quickly, it was built like a tank but the finish was not so great. it was built quickly for the upcoming show circuit. The one guy I know who picked the boat up when it first came home in early 72 said it looked like they put the gel on with a brush .

mattyboy
03-14-2013, 04:00 PM
this is what we used you need to find the right size and threads. this is just a pic of what they looked like

we used the old screw holes and the old stripe as a template drilled pilot holes have to be careful not to go to far with drilling or crank down to hard. we used 4200 on the wood screws and also a few beads to seal the holes. under the deck we used washers and nylock nutz to pull it down


+1 on the performance trailer

no flotation foam in the 72 cig 19

mattyboy
03-16-2013, 08:34 AM
rr you have mail let me know if all 9 pics came thru.

it is great to see so many people saving these great pieces of history from thunderboat row. these projects can be an emotional roller coaster. looking at all the old pics from the cig 19 project I remember the days Kenny wanted to scrap the hole idea the many cold ones and the words of encouragement the long nights in the shop. we traded places when i started on the hornet but have faith when your done you will have a sense of accomplishment and the reward when she hits the sun and waves

note this also applies to all the members who are working on brothers from other mothers like magnums,donzi,cigs,formulas a job well done to all

rr1048
03-16-2013, 09:43 AM
What an incredible transformation. I receive the photos and the process of thru deck attachment looks like a winner. The finished product speaks for itself. I have 1 less piece of wood on the deck stripe as my hatch is raised and only has the vent holes that are teak. When you removed the original teak stripe was it fastened to the deck with any adhesive? I believe they have a bead of sealant between the wood and deck. Did you use any sealant between the wood and deck? Did you ever consider using only 4200 and putting some heavy weight on the wood during the drying process. Was the surface flat enough or did it need the screws to pull it down because of a curve in the deck? I appreciate your help and experience in doing this tedious and signature detail on a great older boat.

These 20' Cigarette's like many other 70's era Performance boats were a historical milestone in marine design and engineering. They changed performance boating forever. it was a magical time to be involved in the hobby of boating. When you consider just 10 years earlier, in the 60's many boats were still wood and most of fiberglass boats were low performance.

It is a privilege to own one of these great older boats and with big modern power, drives, steering, and propeller technology, they can still run 100 mph or in the 80's without a great deal of effort.

Thanks and happy boating!

Conquistador_del_mar
03-16-2013, 12:48 PM
More encouragement. 1971 Donzi 18' 2+3

20cigdon
03-16-2013, 02:57 PM
400 hp is plenty for these cig 20`s but you might want to consider at least 500 hp - better to have more then less. :biggrin:



I think that is just where I'll end up. Hoping for near 400hp from this original SBC with updated helm/wiring then follow with paint & interior thereafter.

Conquistador_del_mar
03-16-2013, 06:28 PM
My 1975 Cigarette 20' came with a SBC. I changed it to a BBC with about 450HP, but it only hit around 65MPH since it had a TRS drive and old school cleaver prop. Bill

Ghost
03-16-2013, 10:41 PM
Absolutely don't know but would guess that shedding some weight in the stern might be worth quite a few ponies in this hull. Say, a 400 HP smallblock with aluminum heads/manifolds/intake? Might bet on that against a 450 HP big block weighing in 300+ lbs more.

Of course, a setup like osur866's would be awesome if it'd fit in the boat...

mattyboy
03-17-2013, 08:44 AM
Absolutely don't know but would guess that shedding some weight in the stern might be worth quite a few ponies in this hull. Say, a 400 HP smallblock with aluminum heads/manifolds/intake? Might bet on that against a 450 HP big block weighing in 300+ lbs more.

Of course, a setup like osur866's would be awesome if it'd fit in the boat...

nice looking 20 Bill !

Ghost I am not really sure either but some info that might shed some light.

these are heavy boats every one I have seen is built like a tank. the boat was basically unchanged thru it's life but the small changes did effect the boat

the early boats were built with a small block in mind but soon changed, the rear seat was moved fwd so a big block could be used from the mid 70's on the big block was the choice of power. the other change would be the running pad on the boats from the mid 90's on.

so the cig 19 with a 350 hp sbc and a volvo 270 would run 57-58 everyday would hit 60 in the right conditions. the volvo is heavy and really not to slippery in the water. Bill had 100 more HP with a heavy drive system but I have heard the long gear case on the TRS is very slippery in the water and would get to 65.

I wonder in a big block boat with the weight of the rear seat moved fwd and weight taken out of the back going from a BB to a SB that the expected speed increase from the weight savings might be offset by the shift in balance weight or leverage for lack of a better term leading to more wetted running surface. I have no idea but wish i could buy one and find out

so with no football to wager on and I don't think this would be anymore than an even money bet for me
350hp volvo SBC at 59
450HP BBC TRS at 65
now would a 400 SBC hp bravo at ?? If I could I would take the 65 and under of course this is standard drives no shorties ext boxes or BH drives cause you thru that into the mix with the pad and big HP and these little boat FLY!!

rr1048
03-17-2013, 10:35 AM
The configuration of hp,drive and props are a fun factor to play with when owning and dialing in a boat.

I have a 1979, 20' cig that came with a 330/TRS. These TRS drives and trans are heavy,deep and you loose some performance over a bravo.

The bottom design is the rounded keel that are ,considered by some, to be as fast or faster than the pad bottom. I have installed Latham dual ram hydraulic steering and it has the foot throttle, that is the only way to go IMHO. This allows you to keep both hands on the wheel and with a helm extension extension you can sit back into the seat, using your other leg to hold you in tight.

It is imperative that you have no play in the gimbal otherwise this could be a dangerous situation.

I replaced the 330 with a hp425 that was "long in he tooth" but gave me 73/74 at 5200 rpm GPS.

Propeller technology has come a long way since the old cleaver props. I had tested numerous props and found a Mirage 25" labbed to be the best for the setup at that time. It was much better than a standard Mirage Plus. It also has a solid hub.

Recently I had the hp425, freshened and upgraded with rollercam, head work, pistons, increased cr, bore 30 over, match ported. It was on the dyno at 605 hp with the timing retarded for lake gas.

I have not had the boat in the water since installing the motor last year and it should be an interesting spring.

I need to set a bench mark with propellers so we can start tweaking. I have a 27" Mirage and 27" Mirage PLus to start. I will keep you posted on my progress.

Have fun and be safe!

Ghost
03-17-2013, 10:59 AM
Hmmmm, very interesting points and data. I'm really scratching my head (and wishing I had money to burn to go buy one and tinker with it). :) Can't wait to hear how rr's runs with all the motor work.

Most of the ones I've seen run were Lip-Ship customizations with huge power (mostly big blocks I *think* but some small too). Some with the external Merc transom extension boxes. They seem to run very flat (though I have no idea if that's driven by tabs or not) but maybe the balance is such that it can handle lots of weight in the stern. And taking weight out of the stern might upset that balance. Dunno. Is the fuel tank up in the bow or under the floor?

Curious also how people who've experienced both would compare the drive/feel of the 19/20 Cig with the 18 Classic. I've spent a little time in 18s but have never set foot in a Cig 19/20. Mostly just watched their transoms get little.

20cigdon
03-17-2013, 12:17 PM
I have read that it is important to keep the stern heavy on a Cig 20 for better manueverability and handling. Maybe the reason why Cigarette changed to Big Blocks. I think the 280S K-planes are good for 500-650 hp but the 380S K-planes for 650hp+ which Lip Ship seems to be using on their higher hp Cig 20`s. Love seeing the pics of these old 20' Cigs - keep them coming! In 1999, I drove down to Ft. Lauderdale and went to Cigarette on 188th St. It was a wonderful experience knowing that I once stood where the legend Don Aronow once stood. I talked with Craig about the restoration of my boat and he gave me a few items from their gift shop. He even gave me a rare medallion for my boat that says: "This boat Built on Historic Thunderboat Row - 1962 - 2003". I seen one for sale on Ebay a few years ago. I dont think I will ever sell this boat. Just cant wait to run with you guys with all the Aronow built boats.

Conquistador_del_mar
03-17-2013, 12:33 PM
Is the fuel tank up in the bow or under the floor?

Curious also how people who've experienced both would compare the drive/feel of the 19/20 Cig with the 18 Classic. I've spent a little time in 18s but have never set foot in a Cig 19/20. Mostly just watched their transoms get little.

I can't remember where the fuel tank was located. The 1975 model I had was a beast. I used to lead larger and faster boats out in the rough stuff when I felt like doing some racing. I would say that the difference between the 18 Donzi and 20 Cig is fairly dramatic. The Cig did not bounce around nearly as much and remained more level. Out of the many deep v boats I have had, I would rate the 20 Cig as one of my favorites. A friend of mine still has my old one and talks like he will never sell it - I don't blame him - :wink: Bill

rr1048
03-17-2013, 12:50 PM
You bring up some interesting points.

I can give you my perspective about the comparison between 16' Donzi outboard 150 merc, (2) 18' 2 +3's, (1)235hp H&M, Volvo, (2) 350, 400hp, Volvo, 18 Donzi x18, 320hp, TRS drive mounted high, 18 Donzi x18, 350hp, Volvo, 18 Donzi Corsican, 320hp, Volvo, Donzi Criterion, 370hp, TRS.

I was always a nay sayer as my friend had a 20 cig, 454, TRS that I spend over 600+ hours driving and riding over about 4 years. I had the 18 Donzi, 400hp, Volvo at the time and he always had me with 5 mph +/-. The biggest difference was in rough water the Cigarette was a bullet and if you can stay on the power the boat is like arrow and flattens out. We raced many Larger and more powerful boats offshore in south Florida and the cigarette was remarkable. I believe the wider beam, length and weight were the key reasons. Also the boat changes characteristics with the addition to bigger power. It takes some hp to make the 20's perform. Having power/hydraulic steering, foot pedal and drive trim are essential. To make these boats go fast with bbc/TRS go, they need lots of trim. At top speed, it throws a large rooster tail,but when slowing you need to take the trim out rapidly as it will cavitate. You also need to learn how to slow down off of a plane. With the heavy motor and back end weight, if you just chopped the throttle if will wash a wave over the back and driver seat and you will be swimming in water. These heavy stern boats can be very dangerous in a rough sea if not careful. I have a friend that had a 28 Cigarette, bbc/trs that ran out of fuel in the ocean and a wave came over the stern and sunk the boat.

As far as the tabs, with the drive on the transom, the only reason for the tabs is to level the boat slightly during cruise speed. Otherwise the tabs do nothing when the boat is at high speed.

The gas tank is 60 gallons, and is located in the floor and ends about at the middle of the front seats.

I will keep you posted on my latest project and let you know outcome.

Have a great day!

20cigdon
03-18-2013, 10:58 AM
I was planning on not using the foot pedal but after reading your input, I may reconsider it. I thought it would be hard to hold the throttle steady in such a small boat. It makes sense to use two hands on the steering wheel on te 20' Cig - its a drivers boat. Any input from this is appreciated - Don



You bring up some interesting points.

I can give you my perspective about the comparison between 16' Donzi outboard 150 merc, (2) 18' 2 +3's, (1)235hp H&M, Volvo, (2) 350, 400hp, Volvo, 18 Donzi x18, 320hp, TRS drive mounted high, 18 Donzi x18, 350hp, Volvo, 18 Donzi Corsican, 320hp, Volvo, Donzi Criterion, 370hp, TRS.

I was always a nay sayer as my friend had a 20 cig, 454, TRS that I spend over 600+ hours driving and riding over about 4 years. I had the 18 Donzi, 400hp, Volvo at the time and he always had me with 5 mph +/-. The biggest difference was in rough water the Cigarette was a bullet and if you can stay on the power the boat is like arrow and flattens out. We raced many Larger and more powerful boats offshore in south Florida and the cigarette was remarkable. I believe the wider beam, length and weight were the key reasons. Also the boat changes characteristics with the addition to bigger power. It takes some hp to make the 20's perform. Having power/hydraulic steering, foot pedal and drive trim are essential. To make these boats go fast with bbc/TRS go, they need lots of trim. At top speed, it throws a large rooster tail,but when slowing you need to take the trim out rapidly as it will cavitate. You also need to learn how to slow down off of a plane. With the heavy motor and back end weight, if you just chopped the throttle if will wash a wave over the back and driver seat and you will be swimming in water. These heavy stern boats can be very dangerous in a rough sea if not careful. I have a friend that had a 28 Cigarette, bbc/trs that ran out of fuel in the ocean and a wave came over the stern and sunk the boat.

As far as the tabs, with the drive on the transom, the only reason for the tabs is to level the boat slightly during cruise speed. Otherwise the tabs do nothing when the boat is at high speed.

The gas tank is 60 gallons, and is located in the floor and ends about at the middle of the front seats.

I will keep you posted on my latest project and let you know outcome.

Have a great day!

20cigdon
03-19-2013, 03:40 PM
How important is using the floor foot throttle than having a hand throttle? You state that having both hands on the steering is imperative - any other reasons? - Don


You bring up some interesting points.

I can give you my perspective about the comparison between 16' Donzi outboard 150 merc, (2) 18' 2 +3's, (1)235hp H&M, Volvo, (2) 350, 400hp, Volvo, 18 Donzi x18, 320hp, TRS drive mounted high, 18 Donzi x18, 350hp, Volvo, 18 Donzi Corsican, 320hp, Volvo, Donzi Criterion, 370hp, TRS.

I was always a nay sayer as my friend had a 20 cig, 454, TRS that I spend over 600+ hours driving and riding over about 4 years. I had the 18 Donzi, 400hp, Volvo at the time and he always had me with 5 mph +/-. The biggest difference was in rough water the Cigarette was a bullet and if you can stay on the power the boat is like arrow and flattens out. We raced many Larger and more powerful boats offshore in south Florida and the cigarette was remarkable. I believe the wider beam, length and weight were the key reasons. Also the boat changes characteristics with the addition to bigger power. It takes some hp to make the 20's perform. Having power/hydraulic steering, foot pedal and drive trim are essential. To make these boats go fast with bbc/TRS go, they need lots of trim. At top speed, it throws a large rooster tail,but when slowing you need to take the trim out rapidly as it will cavitate. You also need to learn how to slow down off of a plane. With the heavy motor and back end weight, if you just chopped the throttle if will wash a wave over the back and driver seat and you will be swimming in water. These heavy stern boats can be very dangerous in a rough sea if not careful. I have a friend that had a 28 Cigarette, bbc/trs that ran out of fuel in the ocean and a wave came over the stern and sunk the boat.

As far as the tabs, with the drive on the transom, the only reason for the tabs is to level the boat slightly during cruise speed. Otherwise the tabs do nothing when the boat is at high speed.

The gas tank is 60 gallons, and is located in the floor and ends about at the middle of the front seats.

I will keep you posted on my latest project and let you know outcome.

Have a great day!

rr1048
03-24-2013, 01:55 AM
I agree with the statement it's a drivers boat. The 20' can also be flighty and with heavy trim and encountering any wakes or heavy chop can add some excitment to the mix. Driving a 20' fast and in choppy water, you are like a jockey on a race horse, you better be one with the boat or you could get bounced out. Because it is also a sit down boat and you need to be in control at all times, the only way to secure yourself is to brace your left leg against the foot rest and hold on to the wheel firmly. You do not want to take your hands off the wheel to throttle and operate the trim at the same time. The other great advantage of the foot,throttle is that if you take your foot off the throttle it kills the power. I have had many boats with hand throttles and I would not want to operate my 20' without a foot throttle.

I am sure other folks may have a difference of opinion but, I always feel like I am in complete control with both hands on the wheel when traveling at 70+ in a 20' boat and allowing me to observe ahead well for any traffic, large wakes or chop that could create a hazardous situation.

I would also not considering driving these boats fast, without a solid gimbal housing and hydraulic steering. You do not want to encounter any chine walk and with the round keel it would be easy to encounter chime walk and create a hazardous situation.

I have a friend that had a 20' cig with a 330 and decided to use a hand throttle and disconnect the foot throttle. It also had a gimbal with some slack and they hit a wake at a high rate of speed and the boat spun out and almost threw both the driver and passenger out of the boat. The incident frightened the driver to the degree that he sold the boat.

It would be interesting to hear the thoughts of other 20' cig owners and get their thoughts.

My rule is to only take calculated risk and throw in a extra dose of caution and always error on the side of safety. Be safe and happy boating!

20cigdon
04-03-2013, 07:33 PM
Great input - looks like a foot throttle is the way to go. You cant beat experience. I would only drive this boat fast in calm waters - like a hot August morning with the water looking like glass - I cant wait!




I agree with the statement it's a drivers boat. The 20' can also be flighty and with heavy trim and encountering any wakes or heavy chop can add some excitment to the mix. Driving a 20' fast and in choppy water, you are like a jockey on a race horse, you better be one with the boat or you could get bounced out. Because it is also a sit down boat and you need to be in control at all times, the only way to secure yourself is to brace your left leg against the foot rest and hold on to the wheel firmly. You do not want to take your hands off the wheel to throttle and operate the trim at the same time. The other great advantage of the foot,throttle is that if you take your foot off the throttle it kills the power. I have had many boats with hand throttles and I would not want to operate my 20' without a foot throttle.

I am sure other folks may have a difference of opinion but, I always feel like I am in complete control with both hands on the wheel when traveling at 70+ in a 20' boat and allowing me to observe ahead well for any traffic, large wakes or chop that could create a hazardous situation.

I would also not considering driving these boats fast, without a solid gimbal housing and hydraulic steering. You do not want to encounter any chine walk and with the round keel it would be easy to encounter chime walk and create a hazardous situation.

I have a friend that had a 20' cig with a 330 and decided to use a hand throttle and disconnect the foot throttle. It also had a gimbal with some slack and they hit a wake at a high rate of speed and the boat spun out and almost threw both the driver and passenger out of the boat. The incident frightened the driver to the degree that he sold the boat.

It would be interesting to hear the thoughts of other 20' cig owners and get their thoughts.

My rule is to only take calculated risk and throw in a extra dose of caution and always error on the side of safety. Be safe and happy boating!

rr1048
04-08-2013, 12:03 AM
Great plan, you will appreciate the foot throttle and the added security of the having the return spring on the throttle. I often wedge sometimes between the foot pedal and the base when I am fast idling so I do not need to keep pressure on the petal. If you are not careful you can get a sun burn on your foot that operates the pedal. LOL!!

Ghost
04-08-2013, 05:31 AM
In the kind of water where it would matter, I have trouble imagining being able to keep a foot pedal steady on any rpm besides WOT and idle (AKA: pinned on the floor or off it altogether). How's that work? And it seems like pedal management would get old in a hurry if you were cruising instead of racing/sprinting, no?

Greg Guimond
04-08-2013, 07:45 AM
I have a pedal on my 16 and it is a double edged sword. In rough water you will want it 110% as it allows you to quickly adjust to conditions. Keeping it steady is not an issue, you just need to dial in the spring tension. Where it is a drag is when cruising in calm water and you have to keep your foot constant for long distances like when I run from NYC to Westport CT. I have been known to use a high tech stick to keep it at cruise!

rr1048
04-08-2013, 07:55 AM
I understand your concerns, but, it is more like driving your car. It has back spring pressure but not too much that it gives you a cramp.

It is easier to maintain a good cruise without moving around the rpm than you think. Probably because it has a lip around the pedal and you put your entire foot on it. It does not operate the same same as a car, where you pivot your foot on the floor. The angle of the petal also makes a difference.

I have seen some folks add 2 cables so they can change from the foot pedal to the hand throttle with the "quick change" of the cable end at the carb.

Enjoy!

Ghost
04-08-2013, 08:18 AM
It does not operate the same same as a car, where you pivot your foot on the floor.


Oh, didn't know that, sounds like that could make a big difference. Thanks.

maddad
04-08-2013, 11:21 AM
I understand your concerns, but, it is more like driving your car. It has back spring pressure but not too much that it gives you a cramp.

It is easier to maintain a good cruise without moving around the rpm than you think. Probably because it has a lip around the pedal and you put your entire foot on it. It does not operate the same same as a car, where you pivot your foot on the floor. The angle of the petal also makes a difference.

I have seen some folks add 2 cables so they can change from the foot pedal to the hand throttle with the "quick change" of the cable end at the carb.

Enjoy!

Morse also makes a fitting for by the carb that makes one throttle a slave to the other. You can set the hand throttle at a cruise speed and over ride it with the foot throttle, but it will only go back down to where the hand throttle is set.

rr1048
04-08-2013, 05:23 PM
Thanks! That would be the best of both worlds. I will need to chase down the part.

Greg Guimond
04-08-2013, 06:35 PM
If Morse already makes that piece it would make a dual use throttle a nice feature like cruise control. There are other options but they can get pricey quickly. My foot throttle is built to top pivot on my 16 like a car.

RockyS18
05-08-2013, 10:26 PM
Update time:

The pics of the boat are from 2 and a half weeks ago when the bottom was getting some repairs from the "gel coat blisters". The pic of the hatch was taken this past weekend, it is fully primed and ready for paint. As of now, the entire boat has a layer of primer and should be finished with the paint by next week.

Greg Guimond
05-08-2013, 10:39 PM
Man talk about having the correct equipment to work on a bottom. Looks really good. I also notice the round keel. I'm not sure what the deadrise is, but the Sutphen 21 SS uses a round keel and is very fast contrary to what folks might think.

Conquistador_del_mar
05-10-2013, 12:54 AM
Looking good Rocky. I missed by old 20 the very day I sold it, but you know how it goes - the next boat always seems to have an appeal that justifies selling the one you have. Hindsight can make you realize what you already had was hard to beat. Bill

bertsboat
05-10-2013, 08:36 AM
Can anyone decider this number?
CRT200001072

RockyS18
05-10-2013, 09:09 AM
Man talk about having the correct equipment to work on a bottom. Looks really good. I also notice the round keel. I'm not sure what the deadrise is, but the Sutphen 21 SS uses a round keel and is very fast contrary to what folks might think.

I believe the deadrise on the Sutphen is 20 degrees as opposed to the 24 degrees of the Cig 20


Can anyone decider this number?
CRT200001072

Cigarette Racing Team, serial number: 20000 date: October 1972
I'm not sure how Cigarette deciphers their individual serial numbers. Is this boat a 20? Might be why it starts with 20. 000 may refer to production number, possibly a prototype or first then?

mattyboy
05-10-2013, 10:35 AM
Thought the 21ss had a pad as well as the later cig 20 ( son of a gun)

nice progress looks great

mattyboy
05-10-2013, 10:45 AM
One thing I did notice the inner strakes are longer on this 20 than on the black cig 19 . this also happened in the donzi line up . the short starkes were for the Volvo which did not like the disturbed water off of the longer inner strakes.

RockyS18
05-29-2013, 08:19 PM
It looks like a brand new boat :cool:
I haven't posted many updates lately with pics of the boat in the base coat and stuff, so here's one with near-finished paint as of today.

edit: I don't know why it is showing up rotated, the picture itself on my computer isn't rotated.

Conquistador_del_mar
05-29-2013, 09:03 PM
That looks great! Bill

jl1962
05-30-2013, 06:03 AM
Wow.

That makes three boats in your immediate and extended family I'm looking forward to seeing!

Only two more weeks!

-JL

Just Say N20
05-30-2013, 07:04 AM
Strange. On my iPad mini, the picture is oriented correctly. On my MacBook Pro laptop it is rotated 90 degrees to the left. :confused:

Looks great!

Ghost
05-30-2013, 11:10 AM
Looks awesome, nice job!!

RockyS18
05-30-2013, 06:01 PM
More pics taken today-

edit: sorry, I really don't know why they are showing up upside down. (I'm using safari on a mac) based on what Just Say N20 mentioned, it might be a browser thing.

Greg Guimond
05-30-2013, 06:48 PM
Hard to tell but did you choose Black, Grey and Red? Looks awesome

RockyS18
05-30-2013, 07:21 PM
Hard to tell but did you choose Black, Grey and Red? Looks awesome

Black, white, and red. Might be the shadow that makes it look gray.

On a side note, the paint job we ended up doing is slightly different from the one attached to the first post. The entire deck is white, and we will be replacing the teak stripe with a sleek, glossy carbon fiber one. The Cigarette logos will also be made into vinyl stickers rather than having them painted on. Lastly, we got rid of the shadows/gradients(fades).

If anyone ever wants me to work on designs for their boat, let me know. Earlier this year, after people saw my designs, I designed a couple other Cigs for their owners. Maybe I'll turn my hobby into a way to pay for gas...

Holy Smokes
07-26-2013, 05:32 PM
Any updates?

RockyS18
07-28-2013, 12:01 PM
I haven't taken any recent pics, but here's some stuff from 3 weeks ago. The engine compartment has been painted gray. The fuel tank has been foamed in, engine mounts are in, but there's been more progress since these pics.

20cigdon
08-11-2013, 05:13 PM
Hello -

Brian Orlandi`s shop has been shut down for the last 2 months if anyone was curious but he is back in operation. Soon my project will be back on track and mainly to fix all the ****ty fiberglass work that was done by "Lakeside Restoration". Some of the fiberglass is so thick that it has started cracking just by towing. The boat is at Brians shop if you dont believe me.
Man did I get a royal _ucking by Lakeside. Again, I spent $83,000 (have receipts) on a 20' boat and I have to redo the fiberglass work, buy an engine,drive, steering, paint and rigging. Hell - I could have (2) top Guns for that price!
Warning! Stay clear of Lakeside!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

scippy
08-11-2013, 11:53 PM
I disagree, He was always exceptional when it came to billing and inflated pricing, but not so with much else!

RockyS18
08-12-2013, 12:03 AM
More pics

20cigdon
08-12-2013, 06:59 PM
I disagree, He was always exceptional when it came to billing and inflated pricing, but not so with much else!

You can disagree but the proof is at Orlandi Performance - he sent me pics of the work that needs to be redone on my boat. He might have done your boat ok but not mine :(

Conquistador_del_mar
08-12-2013, 07:48 PM
You can disagree but the proof is at Orlandi Performance - he sent me pics of the work that needs to be redone on my boat. He might have done your boat ok but not mine :(

I believe that Pete (Skippy) was using a much deserved degree of sarcasm in his post - :nilly:

scippy
08-13-2013, 01:19 AM
I believe that Pete (Skippy) was using a much deserved degree of sarcasm in his post - :nilly:

Right you are Bill,.....but I guess 20cig is still bruised (as was I) and rightfully so, for if I gave that fool 83K for a less than half finished boat
that "still" is in need of the correct glass work, I think I'd loose all sense of comic sarcasm...........For instance, a typical mockup (gouge)
in pricing was normal if he outsourced (say) a rear benchseat for a 18c from PPI............I called PPI direct and found the retail price to be
10-15% cheaper than what lakeside was charging me............that's the great care lakeside had for their clients! ........Sarcasticly yours !!

mattyboy
08-13-2013, 10:24 AM
Rocky any updates
looks like you guys are in the home stretch :)

RockyS18
08-13-2013, 01:50 PM
Rocky any updates
looks like you guys are in the home stretch :)

We hope to have it in the water by this weekend. It won't nearly be cosmetically finished, but at least runnable for the rest of the summer.

mattyboy
08-13-2013, 02:57 PM
would love to see it at the fall picnic in Lake George hopefully the weather will be a tad better than last year.

1996Z15
08-13-2013, 05:42 PM
When is the fall picnic? My wife and I will be on vacation in October and would love to see all the Donzi's if the dates fall into place.

mattyboy
08-13-2013, 05:54 PM
weekend after labor day sept 6 th to 8th this year

silverghost
08-14-2013, 02:18 AM
Hello -

Brian Orlandi`s shop has been shut down for the last 2 months if anyone was curious but he is back in operation. Soon my project will be back on track and mainly to fix all the ****ty fiberglass work that was done by "Lakeside Restoration". Some of the fiberglass is so thick that it has started cracking just by towing. The boat is at Brians shop if you dont believe me.
Man did I get a royal _ucking by Lakeside. Again, I spent $83,000 (have receipts) on a 20' boat and I have to redo the fiberglass work, buy an engine,drive, steering, paint and rigging. Hell - I could have (2) top Guns for that price!
Warning! Stay clear of Lakeside!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm not on anyone's side in this situation~~~
I have never met either party involved in this project; neither boat owner nor Lakeside's owner ~~

BUT~~Just to Clarify as Lakeside was a forum advertizer/supporter here~~~

It's hard to understand, or believe, that such a Cigarette 20' fiberglass restoration project could get so far out of hand price wise to the tune of $83,000 and not have been done properly ? !

Were you quoted a written estimated price for ALL the needed work to be done before you gave them the job ?
Was ALL all the work neeed to be done spelled-out in the initial legal restoration or repair contract ?
Was a FIRM PRICE given on their work estimate ?
Was this price Only for fiberglass repair, as well as stringer + wood core replacement work & other hull cosemtic & structural work, paint etc ?

What ALL was supposed to have actually been done by Lakeside for your stated $83,000 price ? ? ?

Could the cracking fiberglass be due to using too much resin with far too little fiberglass cloth ?
Or~~~ because of bad/rotted wood core support issues ?

I think You, & Lakeside, need to make ALL the total work/restoration involved on your Cigarette 20' project very clear to Donzi forum reader/members here as this seems to be a very serious accusation you are leveling at Lakeside ?

Lakeside should be able to respond to your accusations !

State your ENTIRE case story here~~~or on another forum thread.

Out of fairness Lakeside should then have a fair opportunity to respond to every one of Your very serious accusations on this forum as Lakeside was, a forum member & Supporter here at Donzi.net !

Again~~~I do not know the FULL story here~~~
And I am NOT taking any sides in this issue~~~

Our Forum members, & readers, Need to know the full true Facts, as well as both sides of this very sad & very costly Cigarette 20' restoration/repair story !

You say you have the restoration/repair records~~~

What fiberglass work is cracking that was done incorretly .
Show us the shoddy workmanship !
Tell US what it will take to repair properly !

SHOW US !

In short~~~
Since you posted some serious accusations here~~~

WE NEED MANY MORE FACTS & FIGURES to support your accusations; & also Lakeside's point by point reply to your accusations of shoddy work & over-charging $$$ !

Again:
I do not know Lakeside's owner, nor have ever had any work done them !
I live in PA~~~but not near their facility~~~nor have I ever visited Lakeside~~~

I also do not know You~~~nor have I ever seen your Cigarette 20' restoration project !
I do not have anything to do with this issue~~~

BUT:
A Penna. friend is seriously considering Lakeside for some transom re-core & stringer replacement + fiberglass work this winter ; as well as possibly re-rigging a new bravo outdrive & a possible shorty lower unit, or raising the drive's X mounting dimension location on his original owner Donzi 18 !
He has ALREADY contacted them about doing this work solely because of Lakeside's former adverts, & former sponsorship of this Donzi.net website~~~and because they are also located in Penna. so he can easily watch the restoration/repair progress !

Now He & I BOTH have some serious questions about Lakeside possibly doing his repair & re-rigging work ? ? ?

SO~~~
Now you ALL know WHY I am asking these questions !

This may best be done on a NEW Cigarette 20'/Lakeside thread !
Thank's~~~

20cigdon
08-15-2013, 06:20 AM
A price was not quoted as in full price for restoration - no firm price was given. No stringers had to be replaced etc. Structually it was in excellent shape. My boat is at Orlandi Performance now if you want to see it and/or talk to Brain Orlandi himself in Michigan. He has the boat as it came from Lakeside - no work has been done on it yet since it arrived there. Jamie spends a lot on advertising but does not reflect his quality of work. I have had many responses from many people that is unhappy with his work and support my accusations. I work outside the country as a Licensed Marine Engineer on commercial ships so I was paying him $1000/month and a few grand more when he asked for it. Going over my receipts - I was overcharged for a lot of items. As a Marine Engineer - I operate the power plant and I repair everything on very large commercial ships so I know what it takes to get something done. Some money was was spent on hull painting, new guages, seats, windshield, trailer etc. and external steering system etc. He seen my project as a cash cow - as the goose that kept laying the golden egg and his business practices are criminal here. I will not scan all my receipts to show you here - it would be too numerous. Your free to go to Michigan to see the receipts at Orlandi Performance. Jamies wife that assists him in the business is a lawyer and they have disclaimers for everything they do - I know why now. All I can say that I would not recommend him to anyone I know - many feel the same way. Its my fault for not adding up my receipts over the years. 6 months ago, I finally did and its at $83,000 for a good ,solid 20' boat. At $83,000 the boat should have been completed or at the very least the boat ready for rigging and its not! But concerns were raised when I called on updates and the inside of the boat was not completed after all these years and all this money. I have to tell my story here - its your choice. I highly recommend Brian Orlandi in Michigan. He has an excellent reputation and has the experience to do the job correctly. I have to pay Brian now to fix the terrible fiberglass work that Lakeside did before moving on to rigging.



I'm not on anyone's side in this situation~~~
I have never met either party involved in this project; neither boat owner nor Lakeside's owner ~~

BUT~~Just to Clarify as Lakeside was a forum advertizer/supporter here~~~

It's hard to understand, or believe, that such a Cigarette 20' fiberglass restoration project could get so far out of hand price wise to the tune of $83,000 and not have been done properly ? !

Were you quoted a written estimated price for ALL the needed work to be done before you gave them the job ?
Was ALL all the work neeed to be done spelled-out in the initial legal restoration or repair contract ?
Was a FIRM PRICE given on their work estimate ?
Was this price Only for fiberglass repair, as well as stringer + wood core replacement work & other hull cosemtic & structural work, paint etc ?

What ALL was supposed to have actually been done by Lakeside for your stated $83,000 price ? ? ?

Could the cracking fiberglass be due to using too much resin with far too little fiberglass cloth ?
Or~~~ because of bad/rotted wood core support issues ?

I think You, & Lakeside, need to make ALL the total work/restoration involved on your Cigarette 20' project very clear to Donzi forum reader/members here as this seems to be a very serious accusation you are leveling at Lakeside ?

Lakeside should be able to respond to your accusations !

State your ENTIRE case story here~~~or on another forum thread.

Out of fairness Lakeside should then have a fair opportunity to respond to every one of Your very serious accusations on this forum as Lakeside was, a forum member & Supporter here at Donzi.net !

Again~~~I do not know the FULL story here~~~
And I am NOT taking any sides in this issue~~~

Our Forum members, & readers, Need to know the full true Facts, as well as both sides of this very sad & very costly Cigarette 20' restoration/repair story !

You say you have the restoration/repair records~~~

What fiberglass work is cracking that was done incorretly .
Show us the shoddy workmanship !
Tell US what it will take to repair properly !

SHOW US !

In short~~~
Since you posted some serious accusations here~~~

WE NEED MANY MORE FACTS & FIGURES to support your accusations; & also Lakeside's point by point reply to your accusations of shoddy work & over-charging $$$ !

Again:
I do not know Lakeside's owner, nor have ever had any work done them !
I live in PA~~~but not near their facility~~~nor have I ever visited Lakeside~~~

I also do not know You~~~nor have I ever seen your Cigarette 20' restoration project !
I do not have anything to do with this issue~~~

BUT:
A Penna. friend is seriously considering Lakeside for some transom re-core & stringer replacement + fiberglass work this winter ; as well as possibly re-rigging a new bravo outdrive & a possible shorty lower unit, or raising the drive's X mounting dimension location on his original owner Donzi 18 !
He has ALREADY contacted them about doing this work solely because of Lakeside's former adverts, & former sponsorship of this Donzi.net website~~~and because they are also located in Penna. so he can easily watch the restoration/repair progress !

Now He & I BOTH have some serious questions about Lakeside possibly doing his repair & re-rigging work ? ? ?

SO~~~
Now you ALL know WHY I am asking these questions !

This may best be done on a NEW Cigarette 20'/Lakeside thread !
Thank's~~~

Greg Guimond
08-15-2013, 06:47 AM
Why was Orlandi closed for two months? I had a small interaction with Lakeside at one point and came away from the conversation thinking that it was far more complex then it needed to be. My gut said stay away.

mattyboy
08-15-2013, 07:30 AM
guys i do think the discussion of who and where we can find reliable affordable marine contractors and vendors and the ones to avoid is always valid and worthwhile . I don't think it is appropriate here in someone else's project thread.

Rocky would love to see the updated pics and good luck with the maiden voyage

20cigdon
08-15-2013, 04:49 PM
Brian Orlandi has an excellent reputation for doing high quality work and he had to shut down for two months because most of his crew was doing sub-standard work so he fired most of his crew. He had to regroup and is back on track now. My boat will be his winter project amongnst a few others. Brian Orlandi was recommended to me by a few Donzi.net members. And after I spoke with him, I was convinced I had the right guy to do the rest of the work needed on my 1974 20' Cigarette. I just wished I had given the boat to him in the beginning. I only gave Lakeside the boat because I seen his online site and it was close to Philly where the boat was located at the time and the boat had to be moved quickly.
During your conversation with Lakeside, did you notice how he keeps talking and dont allow you to talk. Thats a warning sign in my book. Thank god your gut gave you a warning and headed that warning! Again, I apologize for stepping on this thread but the information needs to get out there to prevent something like this from happening to someone else. Dont be mad - be glad...and thank me for it




Why was Orlandi closed for two months? I had a small interaction with Lakeside at one point and came away from the conversation thinking that it was far more complex then it needed to be. My gut said stay away.

20cigdon
08-15-2013, 05:00 PM
If anyone here is interested in seeing the horrible fiberglass work that Lakeside did, contact Brian Orlandi (brian@orlandiperformance.com) and he can send you some pics of the work that I am talking about. You will be shocked!

boldts
08-24-2013, 04:59 PM
While at Lake George last month, I got to see this 20' Cig. that Rocky & his cousin are telling us all about here. It was under a plastic cover at the time so the pictures here really bring it to life for me. While all I could really see was the transom, I knew from 1st site of it sitting on an old beat up roller trailer that she was something special. I've spent a couple hours reading this entire thread. All the pictures that have been posted and having seen the LipShip examples at Lake Cumberland in May just re-afirms what I fell in love with the 1st time I saw the 18 Classic I purchased as my 1st boat. They are all part of powerboat history and if possible need to stay around for future generations to see. Just like a classic 60s-70s car at the local car show on a Friday or Saturday night.

The foot throttle experiences were interesting to read. One of the things mentioned in that discussion was the safety of a quick release of the throttle. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I also thought I read that you can't get off the throttle quickly without turning sharply to keep the big wake wave from coming over the transom? Just wondering if in an emergency or maybe your foot comes off the gas from a landing on top of a wave and bouncing you up off the seat, would the boat not get capsized from this wave coming over the transom? Not being critical of anyone's statements, just asking a question that came to mind as I read. Having run my 18 Donzi on Lake Erie in BIG water, I understand the wanting of a strong hold on the wheel. This is why offshore race boats have a throttle man and a driver working together, but separately in most cases. Again, not saying anyone is wrong, maybe I am, just pointing out observations I've seen and lived.

Can't wait to see pictures of not only this project once it is finished, but of more owner's boats as they choose to add to this story. I too many years ago toured the Cigarette factory on my way down to World Offshore Championship races in Key West last time that all of the groups in Offshore participated as one group. At that time only 2 or 3 boat companies still remained on Thunderboat Row, but I could just feel the performance flowing through me as I stood on those hallowed grounds.

To the 20 Cigarette owners out there. If it's not a tour across the country for you, the Awakening of the Horses gathering in May on Lake Cumberland would love to have you join us. That goes for any Aronow started company boat. Magnums, Formulas etc. If your looking for just a fun long weekend to share your boat and historical piece with others who also wish to do the same, plan on joining the gathering. Sorry.....Got off topic again.....Back to our regularly scheduled thread.

Conquistador_del_mar
08-24-2013, 05:29 PM
Scott,
My experience with my 20' Cig was like my 18' Donzi - don't come off the throttle too fast and you will be fine. It won't swamp the boat even if you do, but some water will come over the transom if you slow too quickly. My 20' Cig also had a foot throttle. Rocky, any updates? Bill

Greg Guimond
08-25-2013, 08:34 AM
While at Lake George last month, I got to see this 20' Cig that Rocky & his cousin are telling us all about here. The foot throttle experiences were interesting to read. One of the things mentioned in that discussion was the safety of a quick release of the throttle. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I also thought I read that you can't get off the throttle quickly without turning sharply to keep the big wake wave from coming over the transom? Just wondering if in an emergency or maybe your foot comes off the gas from a landing on top of a wave and bouncing you up off the seat, would the boat not get capsized from this wave coming over the transom? Not being critical of anyone's statements, just asking a question that came to mind as I read. Having run my 18 Donzi on Lake Erie in BIG water, I understand the wanting of a strong hold on the wheel. Again, not saying anyone is wrong, maybe I am, just pointing out observations I've seen and lived. Can't wait to see pictures of not only this project once it is finished

Agree boldts, watching this Cigarette restoration project evolve has been really cool. On your foot throttle question, I suspect it would take a lot to swamp the boat from coming off plane to quickly as Conquistador_del_mar mentions. To me, the safety and flexibility of having a foot throttle in a smaller "point and shoot" hull is the only way to go. Now even better than that is the Dual Use Hand and Foot throttle option. You get the best of both worlds if you can properly engineer that option. My foot throttle has its swivel pin top mounted and I like it a lot better than the Hot Foot bottom pinned models that I have had.

RockyS18
09-17-2013, 02:40 PM
Maiden voyage today.... Unfortunately I wasn't there for the ride, but rumor has it the boat ran great and hit 75. Interestingly enough, a 22 Donzi with the same power package will do the same speed.

mattyboy
09-17-2013, 03:24 PM
That's good news still some sun left in the season :)

jl1962
09-17-2013, 04:37 PM
It is technically still summer!
;)

Happy to hear it's getting done and the boat is running well (though I'm not surprised!)
Post some pictures if you can when you get back up.

RockyS18
09-21-2013, 11:09 PM
Some pics from today. Still have some finishing up to do, but the boat runs great and runs much more level and secure than it did with the old setup.

RockyS18
09-24-2013, 10:40 PM
One more cool pic from this weekend I found on my phone:

Carl C
09-25-2013, 07:33 AM
That looks really nice and I'm glad you got to drive it this year. I hope the Cigarette logos are going back on. :)

RockyS18
09-25-2013, 07:38 PM
That looks really nice and I'm glad you got to drive it this year. I hope the Cigarette logos are going back on. :)

Yes, we are getting a couple logos for the sides.

mattyboy
09-26-2013, 08:24 AM
the newer elongated oval white red and black logo like the one pictured in your original design mock up would look awesome

nice job glad it runs well

Pat McPherson
10-09-2013, 07:58 PM
I was looking for a 20' Cig before buying my 22' Donzi. Love the boat...

Carl C
10-09-2013, 10:37 PM
Rocky, I thought that you, or anyone else, might like to see the Cig 20 done by Pier 57, http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/general-boating-discussion/303996-1975-cigarette-20-full-make-over-%40-pier-57-a.html .

Greg Guimond
10-09-2013, 11:52 PM
I always wondered what the transom and keel of a Cig 20 looked like.

mattyboy
10-10-2013, 08:34 AM
Greg
keep in mind the 20 bottom changed over it's production run the later boats had pads incorporated into the running surface.

Greg Guimond
10-10-2013, 01:54 PM
Interesting. I have heard of other guys adding pad's to round bottom boats lol

mattyboy
10-10-2013, 04:39 PM
this was not an experiment but a production change to the hull done at the factory mid 1990s i think

vciaszqm
12-11-2013, 10:23 PM
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fast fun 2
12-17-2013, 11:58 AM
One more cool pic from this weekend I found on my phone:
nice boat, nicer truck

jtr2kwl
05-29-2014, 01:00 AM
Hi All, my apologies for the lack of posts, many thanks to Rocky uploading pictures. I thought it would be a good idea to give a little update on the project! I've been out on the cig a few times in the last week, and the results are truly fantastic. While I still need some time to work out the kinks and "relearn" how to drive the "new" boat, it is a safer, more stable, and much easier boat to drive. She does tend to porpoise a bit, but this was true of the "old" boat as well, and with time I'll learn just how she likes to be trimmed and tabbed. Just a side note...the 280 k-planes are really incredible!

Since the last update, I've made a few small steps towards completing the boat. It's really enjoyable at this point that the major work is completed and I can take my time putting the finishing touches on the boat. Most notably, the Cigarette oval's are now on the boat!

While the majority of the work is done, there are still a few lingering tasks to be completed:

The deck has a divit (thats the best way I can think of to describe it!) where the old teak stripe used to be. As we speak, I'm having a black aluminum stripe made that will be set in place. For those interested, that requires 7 separate pieces from bow to stern! In addition, I'm having some white aluminum pieces made that for either side of the interior that will cover up old speaker and switch holes. When those are completed I'll be able to install the stereo.

In addition, I'll have to figure out a grill for the dome on the engine hatch - Rocky and I will hopefully be able to custom design something that he'll be able to build on a CNC machine at his school. I still have to install the scoops, and the remaining grab handle.

Finally, I'll have to install the ski locker cover on the deck. I've been driving the boat around without it because I seem to have misplaced the hinges! Unfortunately during the painting process, the old 3 hole pattern was not filled on the deck, and I'd really prefer not to leave them exposed. They're the standard 3 hole take apart hinges that Donzi uses on the classic engine hatches. Does anyone have an extra pair they'd be willing to part ways with, or know where I'd be able to source them? I know they're available on donzidirect, but I'm having a very difficult time accepting the $125 price tag for each side, when I've seen pairs of the hinges go for $25 on here. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

And now...pictures!!

79751

79752

Conquistador_del_mar
05-29-2014, 01:11 AM
Very cool work on that classic ride! :yes:

jtr2kwl
05-29-2014, 02:31 AM
Do any of the cig 20 guys on here have experience with bravo's on their boats? I'm curious about prop selection, I'm currently using a bravo 1 26p. I'm getting a bit of porpoise, and was wondering if other owner's had recommendations on prop selection?

Thanks!

undertaker
05-29-2014, 09:20 AM
Do any of the cig 20 guys on here have experience with bravo's on their boats? I'm curious about prop selection, I'm currently using a bravo 1 26p. I'm getting a bit of porpoise, and was wondering if other owner's had recommendations on prop selection?

Thanks!

jtr2kwl send Roadtrip (on this site) a PM he has had extensive conversations with Phil Lipshultz (Lip Ship Marine, Miami, FL) about setups on 22 classics and 20 cigs, he might be able to give you a contact or info. Phil in my opinion is the best when it comes to setting up a 20 cig, he has an insane 20 cig with a blackhawk that run close to 100 mph and has redone and setup many many other cig 20, ran with him and a few of his boats he has done in Lake Cumberland, KY and they are awesome....hope this helps:)

Undertaker

jtr2kwl
06-24-2014, 08:44 PM
Thanks, Undertaker, I did speak with Phil recently. Basically came to the same conclusions that I had already found, which is i'll need to drag some tab for the porpoise, the Bravo 26P is generally a good prop for the boat, and putting on a shorty is a good idea. In fact, he said they simply put shorties on all of the bravo 1 boats that they did.

-Derek

jtr2kwl
06-24-2014, 08:53 PM
Just an after thought, I've taken the boat up to the mid 70's, and the thing got incredibly loose and squirly!!!! very scary!

Fortunately I've had more seat time and have gotten much more comfortable driving the boat, and am learning more of her characteristics. Below 50 the boat tends to porpoise, so I set my drive to about 6, and drag a little tab just below neutral. This seems to help. Above 50, and to the mid to upper 60's, neutral tab, and the boat is really rock solid. Handled some rougher water very well! I'll still have to work on dialing in 70+ speeds however!

79989

79990

Conquistador_del_mar
06-24-2014, 09:11 PM
Do any of the cig 20 guys on here have experience with bravo's on their boats? I'm curious about prop selection, I'm currently using a bravo 1 26p. I'm getting a bit of porpoise, and was wondering if other owner's had recommendations on prop selection?

Thanks!

If you want a rock solid ride, you might try the Revolution 4 25P which is as much pitch as they make. I think you will be shocked! I tried one on my 28' Warlock with a 548 stroked engine and hit 74mph at 5300RPM through an IMCO Extreme drive with 1.5 ratio. It is actually the fastest prop I have tried including Bravo 1, Fusion 4, Mirage and Hydromotive. Very nice Cig by the way. I saw you have k planes - did you go with external steering? Bill
.

jtr2kwl
06-24-2014, 09:18 PM
Bill,

Thanks for the recommendation, i'll certainly look into the revolution. Also on the list to try, as you mentioned, is a hydromotive. And yes, we put 280 k planes on it, which are phenomenal. On such a short boat, just a little bit of input makes for a considerable difference, but I'm very happy to have them on. I find myself rarely - if ever - being able to lift them up above neutral. And yes, absolutely went with hydraulic steering. That was never a question, the boat needed it from the beginning. The old cable steering was tired and had way to much slack and play in it, the boat would jump out of the water, and then land only to shoot off in another direction.

-Derek

Conquistador_del_mar
06-24-2014, 09:29 PM
Bill,

Thanks for the recommendation, i'll certainly look into the revolution. Also on the list to try, as you mentioned, is a hydromotive. And yes, we put 280 k planes on it, which are phenomenal. On such a short boat, just a little bit of input makes for a considerable difference, but I'm very happy to have them on. I find myself rarely - if ever - being able to lift them up above neutral. And yes, absolutely went with hydraulic steering. That was never a question, the boat needed it from the beginning. The old cable steering was tired and had way to much slack and play in it, the boat would jump out of the water, and then land only to shoot off in another direction.

-Derek

Yep, my old Cig 20 was a handful with the steering! There wasn't the external steering available back then. I have k planes on a 23' Warlock right now and the boat reacts quickly to them - not that there is anything wrong with Bennetts if they are large enough for the task. Definitely try the Rev 4 - it is the best prop I have ever tried in every catagory including top end. It will not slip on you and rides rock solid at cruise( wonderful cruising speed prop) and top end on deep v hulls that I have tried them on.

jtr2kwl
06-25-2014, 12:25 AM
Cool. What can I expect from the Rev 4? I apologize for my ignorance, but is it a bow lifting prop? I believe part of the issue I'm having - as discussed with Phil - may be too much bow lift, and a heavy motor at the back...causing the porpoising. I like what you said about rock solid at the top end, though, as when I pushed the boat up above 70 she became very loose and chine walked violently. I think that had a lot to do with me, of course, I probably should have been running more tab.

While I'm at it, I may as well open another can of worms. Can I expect a shorty to help my situation? Yes, I've searched through these forums and spent hours reading about shorty's and the results that everyone has had on their donzi's, but I'm still left wondering. We got the x dimension on the cig as high as we could, but this still left the prop shaft about just a bit over 5 inches below the hull (will have to confirm). Both Phil and Bud at cigarette recommended going with a shorty setup to get to 3 inches below the hull. I'm probably going to go in this direction - can't ignore Phil and Cigarette - I'm still curious to know if it will actually help my situation. I'm happy with the top end I'm getting now, so what I'd really like to improve is the handling and stability especially at speed. Thoughts?

Conquistador_del_mar
06-25-2014, 12:31 PM
Cool. What can I expect from the Rev 4? I apologize for my ignorance, but is it a bow lifting prop? I believe part of the issue I'm having - as discussed with Phil - may be too much bow lift, and a heavy motor at the back...causing the porpoising. I like what you said about rock solid at the top end, though, as when I pushed the boat up above 70 she became very loose and chine walked violently. I think that had a lot to do with me, of course, I probably should have been running more tab.

While I'm at it, I may as well open another can of worms. Can I expect a shorty to help my situation? Yes, I've searched through these forums and spent hours reading about shorty's and the results that everyone has had on their donzi's, but I'm still left wondering. We got the x dimension on the cig as high as we could, but this still left the prop shaft about just a bit over 5 inches below the hull (will have to confirm). Both Phil and Bud at cigarette recommended going with a shorty setup to get to 3 inches below the hull. I'm probably going to go in this direction - can't ignore Phil and Cigarette - I'm still curious to know if it will actually help my situation. I'm happy with the top end I'm getting now, so what I'd really like to improve is the handling and stability especially at speed. Thoughts?

I don't believe the Rev 4 is a bow or stern lifting prop - just an excellent and efficient pushing prop with no negative characteristics on the two boats I have used them on. Here you go - it ends within 24 hours though - http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercury-Revolution-4-Propeller-/331238444886?pt=Boat_Parts_Accessories_Gear&hash=item4d1f598f56&vxp=mtr#ht_659wt_1153

As far as the shorty goes, I can't help you. If I had your boat, I would try the Rev 4 first and then see if everything runs like you like it before thinking about the shorty. :yes:

jtr2kwl
05-09-2015, 12:53 AM
Hi All,

Been quite a while since my last update. Getting excited for the summer. Hoping for a splash date this Tuesday or Wednesday....

Here's a pic taken by our good friend Jay on a cold, cloudy Friday morning this past September. Turned out beautiful. Meant to post this forever ago!

82101

undertaker
05-11-2015, 09:47 AM
Nice pic.....:yes:

Pat McPherson
05-11-2015, 02:44 PM
I didn't read the whole thread but did go back as far as your questions about props. The Bravo 1 is a neutral to stern lifting prop and with it's larger diameter, likely a good prop to start with if you switch to a shorty. The Rev 4 has been described to me as a 4 blade version of the Mirage and is a neutral to bow lifting prop. Th Rev 4 works great on old school hulls with deep drives. I run a 25p Rev 4 on my 22' Donzi classic after trying 5 other props...

So what's your power? what drive? what prop? and what speeds are you seeing?

jtr2kwl
05-16-2015, 03:21 PM
Pat,

I appreciate the input, definitely clears up a lot.

We put in a 496HO/Bravo 1x. According to Cigarette, you just can't get the x dim high enough, and thus the prop shaft is about 2 inches deeper than I'd prefer. Initially I started out with the Bravo 1 26P, and saw a max speed of 75 MPH with more to go. Above 70 it really got lose and chine walked like nothing I've experienced before, and at 75 I had to let off. That seems to be inline with what your comments on the Bravo 1.

I then moved to a Mirage 27P, and in retrospect, noticed a pretty significant difference. Obviously it was much more difficult to get on plane and didn't quite have the maneuverability of the Bravo 1, but I did take the boat up to the low 70's and it certainly seemed more stable. That makes sense to me given the characteristics of the Mirage.

That said, while the Cig handles the rough well, it still doesn't seem to me like it handles as well as the lip ship 20's that I've seen with Bravo 1x/xr's. After consulting with Phil, he said that they never even tried standard Bravo 1x/xr's, and that they always went with a 2 inch shorty. He seemed to think that a 2 inch shorty and a Bravo 1 26P would be the ideal setup for me. I had intended to do the shorty this winter, but didn't get to it.

So given the Bravo 1's stern lift, would it still be the right prop with the shorty? With what I've heard about the Revolution, it sounds to me like it could be a great setup even with the shorty.

-Derek

smokediver
05-16-2015, 09:31 PM
The Rev 4 is actually more in line with the Tempest Plus. You may be beyond the pitch limits as the Rev 4 only goes to 25 pitch. You may find going to a Bravo1 with some of the barrel removed for more bow lift might be a better option. I would call BBlades and talk to him about your goals.

yeller
05-17-2015, 01:11 PM
FWIW I tried a Bravo1, Mirage + and Tempest + on my 22C and prefered the Tempest. I know it's a different boat, but it sounds like your Cig is handling the same way my 22 did. Anything over 70 and the boat was an absolute nightmare.
The Bravo was the worst prop on my boat. It had too much stern lift and even passengers could feel the stern trying to climb out of the water and walk sideways. The Mirage handled better, but the boat did seem "looser" at speed. Not as "planted" as the Bravo. I didn't mind the loose feeling. The boat was easier to handle at higher speeds despite this. My main problem with the Mirage, was getting up on plane. If I wasn't extremely careful, the prop would blow out and I'd have to drop back to idle and try again. The Tempest handled almost identical to the Mirage...maybe slightly better, but it didn't blow out like the Mirage.

undertaker
05-18-2015, 09:44 AM
Pat,

I appreciate the input, definitely clears up a lot.

We put in a 496HO/Bravo 1x. According to Cigarette, you just can't get the x dim high enough, and thus the prop shaft is about 2 inches deeper than I'd prefer. Initially I started out with the Bravo 1 26P, and saw a max speed of 75 MPH with more to go. Above 70 it really got lose and chine walked like nothing I've experienced before, and at 75 I had to let off. That seems to be inline with what your comments on the Bravo 1.

I then moved to a Mirage 27P, and in retrospect, noticed a pretty significant difference. Obviously it was much more difficult to get on plane and didn't quite have the maneuverability of the Bravo 1, but I did take the boat up to the low 70's and it certainly seemed more stable. That makes sense to me given the characteristics of the Mirage.

That said, while the Cig handles the rough well, it still doesn't seem to me like it handles as well as the lip ship 20's that I've seen with Bravo 1x/xr's. After consulting with Phil, he said that they never even tried standard Bravo 1x/xr's, and that they always went with a 2 inch shorty. He seemed to think that a 2 inch shorty and a Bravo 1 26P would be the ideal setup for me. I had intended to do the shorty this winter, but didn't get to it.

So given the Bravo 1's stern lift, would it still be the right prop with the shorty? With what I've heard about the Revolution, it sounds to me like it could be a great setup even with the shorty.

-Derek


I would listen to Phil. He has set up tons of 20 cigs and all of his run VERY VERY well. Get the shorty start with the 26P bravo and tweak that prop if needed thru BBlades. I run a labbed 26P Bravo from BBlades on my 22 with a 496HO and its a nice all around prop....good luck...keep us posted:biggrin.:

Pat McPherson
05-18-2015, 12:45 PM
In my humble opion, its better spend a few hundered trying props, before spending thousands on a shorty.
The prop shaft on my 22C is vary deep, like 7". Many have gone to shortys with good success on 22Cs and I don't doubt I'd gain speed with a shorty. If you've got the 3K+ for a shorty and top speed is the ultimate goal then go for it.
I chose to to hunt for the best prop with my stock setup.
The Rev 4 improved the handling of my boat over the Merc Mirage that came on the boat and a Turbo 1 (best 3 blade I found). And I only lost maybe 1mph on top. The Bravo 1 and Hydro 4 blade props I tried were no good at all.
I have had good experience working with Brett at B-Blades; he can modify a B1 to become more of a bow lifting prop that will work with your setup. I still say try a 25p Rev 4 first before buying a custom prop; Brett with lone you one of those too, for a small fee...

mattyboy
05-18-2015, 05:07 PM
you have to remember the newer 20s had a pad and run very fast but even Phil had setup older round bottoms that ran very fast too they do like a raised X they are also heavy boats hence the rough handling.