Congrats Hornet Marine in Boating

[VetteLT193]

Just got the latest issue of Boating magazine and it has a writeup on the Hornet 17. Congrats guys!

[duckhunter]

Saw that as well. Pretty cool!

[Carl C]

I saw that too and there was no secret about it being a Donzi copy! I hope Donzi can pull out of bankruptcy and that they revive the Classics. This should prove that there is still a demand for a proven hull design.

[f_inscreenname]

and there was no secret about it being a Donzi copy!

+2

[Donziweasel]

Yes, congrats for stealing a design, refusing to admit it, and getting press. Well done.

[duckhunter]

My hat is off to anyone with the huevos required to start up a boat company in the last four years. Maybe they identified a viable unfilled niche for guys looking for tenders or summer cottage boats. Reminds me a little of the Smith brothers and Factory Five "Cobra" replicas... Or any number of skiff makes that closely resemble BW.

While I recognize the realities of mass production and economy of scale, I like the idea of a small group of passionate folks building boats to order vs. a big corporation Brunswick/AMH/Tracker/whatever. Kind of like a production Ocean or Viking (both nice boats) vs. a custom Paul Mann or Jarrett Bay (ridiculously nice boats). Let the market dictate. I hope they make a killing.

[jl1962]

Guys - get over it.

The Donzi ethos we all love hasn't existed in three decades. Donzi bet the company on bow riders, fish boats and cabin cruisers and abandoned the small performance boat market. Maybe they had to, maybe they didn't.

Every deep-V boat is a copy of some other deep-V boat. It is a generic boat type. I don't see Ray Hunt complaining about copies.

Nothing is preventing Donzi from getting back into this segment. And nothing is preventing Donzi from seeking legal recourse if they feel their designs are being infringed on. Be thankful someone wants to build these boats and pray that people keep buying them.

My .02

[Carl C]

Actually bankruptcy is holding them back right now and don't forget the ZR line.

[f_inscreenname]

A clone is a clone. Just because Donzi is not doing anything about it don't make it right. If I owned a Donzi I would be pissed that my classic was now being cloned. And a 17' boat at that.
I've been asked more then once to use my 19 as a plug. Even by Todd Allmand himself. I only have one answer, no.

[David Hartmann]

[ QUOTE=$originalposter]{$pagetext}[/QUOTE]

I just wanted to thank everyone for the support. It has been a challenge to build this company. Some very hardworking and talented people have dedicated years to building a great brand. We are proud of the boats we build and really appreciate the support. Thank you!

[David Hartmann]

[ QUOTE=$originalposter]{$pagetext}[/QUOTE]

It is not our goal to de-value a Donzi. Please understand we are Donzi fans. I have been around these boats my entire life. It is our goal to build the best boats possible. I don't believe our boats devalue a Donzi. We build a very high end sport that sells for a fair price. This should only increase the value of used boats in a similar class.

To put this in perspective. In the 80's I was restoring a 7 meter. Which was one of the very few twin engine or sport cruisers that Donzi ever made. What do you think happened to the value of that boat When DONZI started to produce The Regazza line. I was frustrated by why they would chose this direction but to this day I still wish the company success.

It would be my position that if Donzi decides to build boats again then the competition would make both of our boats better.

Future models. We are always looking for highly proven designs so that we can build quality boats on proven running surfaces for demanding customers. If anyone knows of a 21 to 25 center console boat that they know has fantastic running surfaces let us know. We are looking to partner with a manufacture to buy the fiberglass and rig it at the Hornet Factory.

We also do restoration work. We currently have a St Tropez and a Hornet II going through some significant upgrades. I am confident that most Donzi enthusiasts would appreciate the quality of the work we do.

[yeller]

"Guys - get over it."

Couldn't agree more! Really...there are lots of boats out there that have different company names attached to them, yet they all came from the same molds. It's hard to fully respect Hartman though when he refuses to admit he is copying the Classic. Does he really think people are that stupid?

On the other hand, why does everyone get so upset? I honestly don't understand it. Donzi didn't really care about anyone who owned a used Donzi. You were of no use to them. They didn't exactly have a good reputation for customer service. Maybe if they cared more about their after sales service they wouldn't be in bankruptcy.
And to be brutally honest; (sorry if it hurts), but unless you actually purchased a brand new Donzi, you never supported them.

That outa get me :fire:

[Carl C]

http://i763.photobucket.com/albums/xx275/CARLC222/Pictures863Large.jpg

[dsparis]

Best of luck to Hornet Marine.

[Just Say N20]

Very impressive performance actually. Almost 60 mph top speed with a V6. 5.3 mpg at an almost 35 mph cruising speed.

I'm perplexed by the ongoing anger towards Hornet Marine.

Cobalt is generally recognized as being one of the best boats built today. Yet back in the day, they sold EXACT copies of the Donzi Ski-Sporter (XV 200) and the Corsican (GT 500). At that time DONZI sued them to stop production, and yet today these DONZI clones are considered desirable boats. Vance also sold some DONZI clones. Sutphen had an 18 that was easily mistaken for a DONZI 18. Later, Four Winns came out with the U-17 and U-19 models, that were obviously not clones, but designed to compete against DONZI classics.

At this point, with DONZI's future uncertain, and with them having made the business decision to focus primarily on the large go-fasts, they don't seem concerned with Hornet Marine producing a "similar" boat to the Sweet 16. When the last article I read in a boating magazine about the Sweet 16 said that DONZI would still make you one on a custom basis, at a price around $79,000, it seemed to me that DONZI really didn't want to make the smaller classics anymore. Perhaps their infrastructure was such that they simply can't make any money unless they sell it for such a seemingly high price.

And Yeller's comment, ". . .but unless you actually purchased a brand new Donzi, you never supported them." is also true, to a degree. Like many on this site, I have owned several classics. Also like many on this site, I have never owned, nor could I afford, a new classic. So from a strictly financial perspective, I haven't put much money directly into DONZI's bank account. However, I do feel that we have done a tremendous amount of positive marketing for DONZI, by keeping our boats in amazing condition, running them a lot, and generally presenting these boats in the best possible light.

I hope Hornet does well. I believe there is a niche for them, and I give them tremendous credit for building a new boat company in today's market conditions. There are many people who actually just want to turn the key and go boating without wondering "now what?!?" when they turn the key . . .

I LOVE running my Ski-Sporter, but I also must really like working on it too, because I spend so much time doing it. I also believe many on this site are in that situation, some by choice, others not.

At this point in my life, I don't fit the Hornet Marine buyer's profile. Perhaps at some point, I might. I hope there are enough people out there who are prospective buyers that they make a successful run at it. They have a genuine interest in producing a quality product, while providing a good customer experience. I think the fact that Dave actually still comes to this site and posts speaks very highly of him. I've never met him, spoken to him, or had any communication with him, but I'm intrigued that he has continued to post, been very cordial when attacked, and even invited any/all of us to different locations to see/check out their product.

[Carl C]

I have such mixed feelings about this. I have no ill will toward Hornet, but should they be promoting their Donzi splash on a Donzi specific forum? IDK. Since Donzi no longer builds the 16C it doesn't really matter much at this time. Maybe Hornet should also splash the 18 & 22 Classics. But let's say that Donzi emerges from bankruptcy and decides to focus on ZRs, center consoles and Classics. Will the market now be gone because another company took over the line? If Donzi goes down then I would welcome another company keeping the Classic line alive. It's so hard to put my feelings into words right now :(. We are on the brink of not just losing the Classic line-up but Donzi Marine as well. For that reason I find it hard to give Hornet best wishes and a thumbs up at this time......

[roadtrip se]

It is stealing. Say all you want, justify all you want, but it is a splash and a rip-off of the design and the logos. I work in the software business and have been involved in litigation over intellectual property many times where the burden of proof for infringement was much more difficult to make a case for than this thing. From my experience, this one would not pass the test for one moment in court should Donzi chose to pursue it.

As for Donzi being gone, I have heard rumbles in the past week that the news of their complete failure could be a little presumptive, so keep your ears to the ground. Whether they come back or not, and whether they chose to build a Classic again or not, the production of a Donzi clone is inexcusable from my view.

[Ghost]

Quick aside from Hornet--it may not be intuitive, but buying used is still a very important form of support for the manufacturer. The concept is no different from cars, but I think it's easier to see in the car example. Imagine a car company where the owners of new cars couldn't move them on the used market. It'd be a disaster for the builder's new-car sales, drastically cutting their value and their new sales.

Of course, it looks like all that is moot when the manufacturer goes out of business, but I'm betting Donzi will be back in some form. If so, their time away will effectively have been just a slowdown that let demand catch up with production.

[gcarter]

I think that if everyone took a deep breath and actually checked into what they're so emotional about, you'd all find there's not much in the way of protection for boat hull design.
Walt admitted he copied Ray Hunt's design for Dick Bertram, for the Donzi 16.
We all love Walt. After all, he worked for Don, but he still copied Ray Hunt.
Should we tar and feather Walt??????
Anyone here for that?
FWIW, Ray Hunt attempted to patent his hull, but he waited too long after releasing it, and writing about it.
Ask Brownie about this.
C'mon guys, get a grip!

Finally, I have a copy of a copy of a summary of design criteria from Michael Peters, one of the foremmost performance boat designers in the world.
I can't seem to post it because because it's a .TIFF format.
But in it he says:
Always copy someone. The only way to improve is to understand what's been done before. Be a student of history. Always analyze what others have done, both good and bad, in order to create a baseline of design.
After you read this, let's put this crappy emotional stuff where it belongs, and let's not hear anymore about it.

[Donziweasel]

your just mad becuz you didnt think of it and you couldnt get yours over 66 mph

Hey, that is pretty good for 7000 ft when you are down 21% of your hp. It would run over 70 at sea level.... :)

I have no problem with what Hornet is doing, I simply have a problem with how they are doing it.



Walt admitted he copied Ray Hunt's design for Dick Bertram, for the Donzi 16.

That is exactly my point. Hornet refuses to admit thier boat, or even thier script, has anything to do with Donzi. I have pressed Hartman several times to admit the hull is a Donzi clone. It is an exact replica of the 16, hook and all. In other articles, they claim it is basically thier own design. Give Donzi a little credit and I am fine. Everytime I have confronted them about the design, they evade the question or out right say it is thiers. Well, I have a problem with that.

A clone, in a way, is a compliment to the original design. When someone copies a 16 and makes ridiculous claims that the design is theirs, then that is just wrong. All Hornet has to do is admit they copied the 16 and you would never hear another word out of me. For some reason, they refuse to admit thier boat is a clone or a copy. That, quite franly, irritates me. Stealing the design and then claiming it is yours is BS.

I am done, have at it.

[Carl C]

I've got to disagree about copying other's designs. It's the innovators that make this sport interesting. Howard Pipkorn, Art Carlson, Don Aronow, Reggie Fountain, Mike Fiore to name a few.

[roadtrip se]

No emotion here. Just calling a spade, a spade. And copying is not flattery, it's plagarisim. From the one example I saw, and maybe it was a bad day at the shop, it wasn't even a well executed copy. I think what Peters could be inferring, without having seen the article, is to add something of your own to the starting design language. Other than some fancy interior pieices, this isn't the case here at all. Close to a complete splash. Still with Weasel, at least admit your design and logo are a copy, and my tone would moderate.

[gcarter]

.................Oh yes, breakthroughs.
Here's what Peters said about breakthroughs;
"Breakthroughs come slowly. Have faith that there will always be another project, enabling you to try your ideas in controlled increments. Resist the temptation to try all your ideas at once"
Most here seem to think this industry started in Miami in the early '60's, but that would be wrong. In the '50's both Ray Hunt in CT. and Sonny Levi in India, copied Dr. Lindsey Lord's book he wrote in the '40's called "Naval Archetecture of Planing Hulls". I have a copy of this book and evey other major work on planing hull design. There's nothing mysterious about this stuff. It's a progression......
So, I don't have any problems w/any of this, as and since, the 16 hull is so well documented, they could have changed every detail of the bottom by 1/8" and it would be a "NEW" hull. They could have, couldn't they?
Finally, Peters said;
"Always get someone else to pay to try your ideas. A true design breakthrough can be made only with willing partners who understand the risk. Nothing new can be done without risk. Finding people who appreciate this maxim-and give you the freedom to fail- is critical to exploring new ideas."

[silverghost]

I agree with Weasel & others here 100% .
Don't get me wrong~~~
I like Hornet Marine's boats~~~

But I have a real problem about the misrepresentations & lies that this boat is "Their own Hull, Deck, and actual Boat Design itself .

I have seen Hornet Marine, & David Hartman himself claim that this is their own original hull, deck, & actual boat design many times~~~
In advertising~~~
On their website~~~
At boat shows~~~
In various Boating Magazine articles~~~
On boat web forums

And yes~~~On THIS VERY Donzi.net Forum !

They have in fact ripped-off this entire Donzi 16 Hull & "Classic" Deck design, the Hornet name with the orignal Donzi style script.
AND~~~
When actually confronted and asked to show their "Own Original Design" hull plug used for their "Own Original Design" hull mold David Hartman remains strangely silent.
Or~~~Claims the hull & deck plugs used to make Hornet Marine's Hull, Deck, & interior molds are now long gone.

Now we ALL here on this great forum are all Donzi "Classic" nuts who know a ""Splash Clone" rip-off Donzi 16 hull & deck design when we see it~~~

But what about all those future potential buyers out there, who don't know the hull & deck's real design origin; & who actually might buy-into his blatently false advertising & actually believe this "Own Design" nonsense~~~

Since AMH/Donzi Marine is now in limbo ~~~And had long since stopped building the "Classic" style Donzi hulls I really would not have a problem with what Hornet Marine ,& David Hartman, is actually doing now.

IF~~~
~~~And Only IF he would stop trying to Mis-represent this "splash" cloned Donzi hull, & "Classic" style deck, as Hornet Marine's' own ORIGINAL design !

David~~
Stop mis-repreenting the boat's true design origin .
Come clean on the real originality of this old Donzi "Classic" design , and I believe you will hear no more complaints from the Donzi.net forum members~~~
Or myself for that matter~

I believe many more here on the Donzi.net forum would then embrace what Hornet Marine is now really doing now that Donzi no longer is interested in building these very unique & iconic pocket speedboats.

[gcarter]

Just keep in mind whatever you say about the "Hornet Marine" folks would have to apply to Walt Walters and 6 or 7 other individuals also.

If copying is copying, then the founders of Donzi would have to point fingers at themselves.

[tmh]

Donzi is no longer in business so Hornet is not hurting the original designer. Hornet wasn't competing with Donzi even if Donzi was still in business. The design has been around for 40 years and many clones have been made before. I'm curious how Hornet is hurting anyone. I am always interested in reading about clones such as Sutphen and Hornet, their target as to customers, and their business plan. I welcome hearing about them in contrast to others on this board being agitated. I would feel differently if the clones were hurting the original designers or owner of a patent or copyright. I'm happy that someone is perpetuating a design that is still viable and in limited demand.
T.M. Hayes

[silverghost]

My only real gripe here with Hornet Marine, & David Hartman, is the continued blatent mis-representation & claims that this boat's Hull design , classic style Deck design , & interior cockpit tub design are Hornet Marine's~~~

"OWN ORIGINAL DESIGN" !

&

The blatent rip-off of the Donzi "Hornet" name, and early Donzi style script logo.

In MY opinion Hornet Marine should be calling this boat a re-creation, -rebirth, or replica copy, or tribute copy, of a famous classic 60s-70s speedboat design.

Don't claim that YOU actually desgned this entire boat with YOUR original design.!
WHEN WE ALL HERE KNOW THAT THIS IS NOT REALLY TRUE !

I give credit to Hornet Marine , & David Hartman, for keeping this "classic" 60s-70s style speedboat style design alive when Donzi could not; or were sadly not able to do so.
It took a lot of guts to start a boat building company in today's poor economy.
Just don't misrepresent the classic speedboat's design history & origin by claiming that it was Hornet Marine's Own Original Design.

Truth in Advertising, & Marketing, of these boats is all I ask.
Is that Wrong ?

[VetteLT193]

[ QUOTE=$originalposter]My only real gripe here with Hornet Marine, & David Hartman, is the continued blatent mis-representation & claims that this boat's Hull design , classic style Deck design , & interior cockpit tub design are Hornet Marine's~~~

"OWN ORIGINAL DESIGN" !

&

The blatent rip-off of the Donzi "Hornet" name, and early Donzi style script logo.

In MY opinion Hornet Marine should be calling this boat a re-creation, -rebirth, or replica copy, or tribute copy, of a famous classic 60s-70s speedboat design.

Don't claim that YOU actually desgned this entire boat with YOUR original design.!
WHEN WE ALL HERE KNOW THAT THIS IS NOT REALLY TRUE !

I give credit to Hornet Marine , & David Hartman, for keeping this "classic" 60s-70s style speedboat style design alive when Donzi could not; or were sadly not able to do so.
It took a lot of guts to start a boat building company in today's poor economy.
Just don't misrepresent the classic speedboat's design history & origin by claiming that it was Hornet Marine's Own Original Design.

Truth in Advertising, & Marketing, of these boats is all I ask.
Is that Wrong ?{$pagetext}[/QUOTE]

I have been looking through some old advertisements for Donzi and I can't find the one where it explains that the whole product line is a rip off from Formula. Can you post up that ad for me?

The original 16 prototype looked almost exactly like the Formula Jr. Maybe Formula should sue every Donzi 16 owner because they have rights to it?

[JimG]

Congrats to Hornet Marine! Job well done, David.

Jim

[gcarter]

Can you imagine Don and Walt discussing whether or not to apologize to Ray Hunt (who was the first to design and build a 24* deep vee hull w/strakes, and a round keel), and Dick Bertram (who paid for the second or third boat (the start of a series and the first to be raced) for ripping off the hull design (and proved the design was completely scalable).
C'mon, give me a break!
I'm sure that didn't happen.

[f_inscreenname]

Yes everyone "borrowed" ideas and designs from friends years ago. One of the points that I think most is missing about that is, these guys knew each other. Does David Hartman know any of these folks enough to take the name Hornet and the design (just splitting the difference of the 16 and 18)?

"After the sale Don and the boys were left with a shop and a lot of trophies and nothing to do. With these guys that didn't last long and they started building again but this time they got a head start. Prior to the sale of Formula they had been working with the idea based on the prototype boat, the "Wyn Mill II" designed by Jim Wynne. Jim won the offshore championship in 1964 and many international records, endurance races and eight world marathon records with the little boat along the way. The design team composed of Don, Dave Stirrat, Jim Wynne and Waltman Walters knew the hull and the strake designs were proven in the Wyn Mill II and with a little tweaking to the design they came up with the Donzi 16. As for where the name comes from there are many versions. Everything from a D J saying it to describe Don's style of boats, to what Don's secretary called him, to his buddies giving him a girlie name.

Allan "Brownie" Brown (http://www.donzi.net/forums/nova_marine_at_supernova19_com.htm)was brought in as Sales Manager (and it could be said as Court Jester) and the boat building, racing and what not went on. The first production Donzi16 was introduced at the Jacksonville boat show and the company took off. The boats they built were very successful and it was not long before Teleflex appeared and bought the Donzi company."

I also dont see how this boat,

http://img803.imageshack.us/img803/9799/91350235.jpg

　
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/2559/29561987.jpg
　

looks like these boats.
http://www.supernova19.com/5732ab60.jpg

[David Hartmann]

[ QUOTE=$originalposter]{$pagetext}[/QUOTE
My mom has had Jim over for dinner a couple of times but I was to young to appreciate his company. (although true, I am just making a joke).

I don't think we have ever tried to say we are something we are not. Design patents only last 25 years and anyway there never was one on theses boats. Or boat is not an exact copy although it is very similar in many running surfaces. We had to make a number of changes for performance reasons not for infringement reasons. It would be unethical and possibly illegal to try and sell our boat as a Donzi which is why you never see us reference a Donzi on here or in our marketing materials.

Just to explain the History of Hornet. I grew up around performance boating. My dad sold our sail boat shortly after working with Jim and he bought the St. Tropez that we are currently restoring at Hornet. Jim taught my dad dad to drive a boat. I thought it was normal for someone to drive a boat incredibly fast in incredibly rough water. I restored a couple of ski sporters and a 7 meter. I have a tremendous passion for Donzi. As I am sure many of you have felt, I got frustrated with some of the issues with the boats I worked on, the electrical systems, the way certain joints were tabbed in. Even more frustrated when I would call a manufacture for parts. Growing up in this environment and having these experiences created a desire to do things different and to do them to the best of my ability. I was able to leave a career as the world wide quality manager for Hewlett Packard'shome computer division and eventually get together with some great people to build the best company we can. There are areas to improve and knowing that, is what drives us to continue. The task of improving is never complete. This is one of the things that has us posting on the forum. We learn about technical issues and we get constructive criticism on how we market the boats.

Our business model is to start with our best industry knowledge. Do the best we can at improving the design and then use the finest materials and craftsmanship to build the best boats. We believe a presence out in the market will help us understand our customers better.

I appreciate all of the comments for and against our business model.

[f_inscreenname]

I think one of the things that ruffles the most feathers beside the fact that you did split the difference between the 16 and 18, most of all you used the Hornet name. Just to many things to close to the original. Also regardless of the cost of the new boat it cheapens the "used" market by the fact alone that there is new boats available. No new boats and the "used" boats that are left become more valuable. Also you all setting a base price on your boats caps the used market at a much lower percentage.

[Rob M]

That Formula Jr. looks bad-ass!

[Donziweasel]

David, your hull is an EXACT replica down to the millimeter of the 16. Call is a 17, it is a Donzi 16. I don't have a problem with that.

What is wrong with this-

Customer/Donzi board member/ whoever- "David, isn't that a replica of the Donzi 16?"

David- "Why yes, to an extent. We took a great hull that was produced for over 40 years by Donzi and added our own touch. This hull has been produced by many manufactures over the years due to it's great design. The interior has been modernized and brought a contemporary level. We are very proud to be able to offer this fantastic package and be able to expand on this great hull design"

Customer- "Isn't the Hornet Marine logo script what Donzi used in thier original design?"

David "Why yes it is. We thought the original Donzi logo script would compliment the Hornet 17. It is a great match for our product".

Bill, George, Mike, anyone else? What is wrong with being honest? I have based my company on being honest. Why does Hornet have to flat lie about thier product?

David, hats off to you for starting the company and even keeping the Donzi hull alive. Just be honest, that is all.

[duckhunter]

I really think it is two separate markets. The high-end Classics that sell on here for comparable or more money to a new Hornet have an extremely limited market, but I don't think they are direct competitors. A lot of guys want to buy a brand new warrantied turn-key package from a dealer with factory support. Same with cars or tractors or snowmobiles or motorcycles or watches. IMO, most boat owners don't want to tinker and maintain their boat - they want to gas up and go and take it to the dealer once or twice a year for service.

To a great extent I think we are our own "inbred" little market. How many boats have exchanged hands between members on this site or the other site alone? Or have sold on this site to someone that HAD to have a Donzi? For the guy with some play money that wants a brand new/old school sporty little boat Hornet is about the only game in town. For those that appreciate the Donzi name and the heritage that goes with it there is no substitute.

It takes passion and some brass ones to start up a boat business in this economy and I wish Hornet the best. Obviously I don't have any skin in this game as I don't even own a Classic (yet). But when I'm ready to move on my next boat will have Donzi on the side and I know most of the folks around here feel the same way. That said, I sure like having a choice.

[mattyboy]

just a couple of facts to add so people may make up their minds


let's not call it a logo let's call it a trademark that the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office has approved

http://www.tradeonlytoday.com/home/514761-hornet-marine-gains-trademark-approval

http://trademarks.justia.com/850/61/hornet-marine-hi-performance-power-boats-85061896.html


Let's not forget that the name Hornet has graced planes, trains , automoblies, motorcycles, boats,ships, and sports teams to call the name specifically Donzi is well short sighted at best.

[f_inscreenname]

Let's not forget that the name Hornet has graced planes, trains , automoblies, motorcycles, boats,ships, and sports teams to call the name specifically Donzi is well short sighted at best.

Sorry to disagree Matt but I have to. If it was a car company named Hornet no one would care but it's not. Just like if someone named their new car company "Camaro Auto" and started to popping out cars that looked like the 1968 Camaro. Even with some added flair and tweaks people would still call it a clone or rip off and be up in arms over it.
No matter what though if you make a boat as close to a Donzi as it is (and I didn't call it a clone) and then you use a proven Donzi name all the way down to the font you are at the very least trying to feed off the Donzi legacy.

[mattyboy]

sorry F'in an argument for rights/ claims/dibs to a logo that was vacated/deserted/abondoned by Donzi ownership over 40 years ago is very very weak! If it was that important to Donzi, the Chisholm's should have claimed it, or maybe the Staples, OMC or AMH after that ,they had 4 decades to make up their minds! The US patent and trademark office granted the hornet logo as a valid unique trademark. Plus Donzi hasn't made a hornet in over 25 years so the buyers of today's hornet would have been about 5 yrs old the last time a 21 hornet III rolled off the line! the Hornet Market buy cause they like the product, the quality and the price of the product.

The same old arguements have been made over the last 2 years or so and some 20 boats later Hornet is still going , improving and selling. what say we revisit this in two years and see where Donzi and Hornet are.

[woobs]

The car argument does not hold water as I don't see anyone upset with all the Cobra 427s being manufactured today...not called "Shelby" but most definately called "Cobra". And that's not even a one-off. There's Caterham making the Lotus super seven with dozens of smaller companies doing the same. No issue there. Plenty more if you dig a little.

I applaud Hornet Marine. If I was in the market for a boat they build...you bet I'd consider them.

Matt, I agree 100% with you and the others on the "pro" Hornet marine side.....
hey we should do a poll to see how the general community feels. "Yea or Nay".

Yea.

[silverghost]

Sean~

I believe the late Carroll Shelby, early on, successfully sued all of the many Cobra replica car, & kit car outfits, out there and demanded that they stop using the Shelby & Cobra name and the car's basic design shape & configuration..
At one time a dozen, or more outfits were making Cobra Replica car, & Cobra kit car copies.
He also later demanded a license fee from many of these same outfits if I remember correctly.

[CHACHI]

........then he started to build them again.

Donzi could do the same thing.

Ken

[gcarter]

Brad, maybe 'Ol Shel' did make those demands.
It seems that in the end, all they couldn't do was to use his name.
Not much of a win in my opinion.
But then, again, he didn't build the cars either.
They were AC Aces. AC is still in business, but they don't seem to mind..........
Maybe because AC was a specialty builder and the design wasn't theirs either.
I can't seem to remember the actual stylist's name, but it was based on an early '50's Ferrari.
Enzo didn't seem to mind either, probably because most all his bodies were ordered out from numerous Italian Carrozerias (sp???).
Someone owns the Donzi name and the tooling, maybe a bank.
They don't seem to mind Hornet being in business, maybe, just maybe, because it would be pointless.
Just maybe some folks here are a lot more upset than it warrants.

[Rembrondt]

Correction... Carroll Shelby was unsuccessful in his lawsuits filed against various kit car makers. The only win for Shelby that I can find, is that the court ruled that the replica car maker could not use the Cobra name or logo.
If someone wanted to "split hairs", they might say that the original Cobra body design was very similar to, if not a copy of, a Ferrari. There are only so many ways to design and build a boat with a planing hull and deep vee bottom. There's nothing wrong with tweaking and improving on an already proven hull concept, that is no longer built new by Donzi, that has been shared and copied and rebranded by many boat companies for more than 25 years, and is now made available with similar (but not exactly the same) specs, using the latest materials and manufacturing methods to ensure high quality and longevity. I hope they go a step further and produce a hull "very similar" to the 1974-76 El Pescador 24. Maybe change the deck and console configuration and offer an outboard version. The original molds are gone so you cannot buy a new version of this hull anywhere.

Hornet Marine should be congratulated and encouraged for continued success. It's not easy to start a small business, especially in such hard times. Long live the free market for the independent entrepreneur! I'll take the high quality fit-and finish from a small boat company, building them one at a time, over the mass produced boat from a mega marine corporation any day.

Gary

[CHACHI]

Correction... Carroll Shelby was unsuccessful in his lawsuits filed against various kit car makers. The only win for Shelby that I can find, is that the court ruled that the replica car maker could not use the Cobra name or logo





When I purchased my ERA Cobra, they had to sell me the Cobra emblems seperate.

Ken

[f_inscreenname]

So what you are all saying is that I should take any design from the past as long as it is not actively being produced and do a couple minor changes and then call it my own?
IE, Take a 1980's Scarab (being WellCraft only make center console tournament boats now and are not making racing/go fast hulls anymore), pop a mold off of one with some minor changes, call it my own design and then name the new company Scab Marine and I should be good to go and no one has a right to say anything about it.
There is just something wrong about that regardless of the legal issues.
Also you all bring up Shelby. The last time I looked a replica 427 Cobra were/are sold for a whole lot less then the original 427's were but yet it is the opposite with Hornet Marine. A clone that cost more then the originals. Again there is something wrong with that.

I'm sorry folks but you will never change my mind about this. Just look at my signature. Resurrection Marine.com is there and what we do is restore real classics to original or even better then original shape and then pass them on to real classic lovers. This is in respect to the original designs and name tags. A new boat company (Hornet) selling classic designs is in direct competition with me and my company and the real classic boats that we restore. We both do the exact same thing. Provide turn key (in our case, classic) boats for folks that don't have the time or skill to do it themselves. Except..... we don't take well known classic designs (with some minor changes) and call it our own and we have an original name that will not be confused with a another company and THEIR history.
A clone is a clone and even though it may be the nicest and in some cases better then the original clone it's still a clone, knock off or a copy of the original and will be always looked as such in my community.
To add insultlt to injury after using the 16 or 18 Donzi as their base design is to use the Hornet (also very well known as a Donzi thing) name. If it would have been me and say I copied the Nova24 (and if anyone would have a right to copy it, it would be me) I sure as hell wouldn't have called the company SuperNova Marine. You are just asking for people to crawl out of the woodwork over it.
Change the name to something a little more original, take your design points from the 16, 18 or what ever other company you want and sell the boats by using a line like "with true classic Donzi influences" or something. But to come to a Donzi board and try to pass off something between a 18 and a 16 and call it your own. You get what you get for that.
Also I live by what I said. Again, I have been offered a hundred times to pop a mold off of my 19 and one of the people asking is the son of the person that bought the design from Brownie originally and legally. The answer is always no. Why would anyone want a bunch of copies floating around except for the people selling them? Even as much as I would like it to be my 19 is not a Nova Marine. It's a Allmand and even though it took 2 years to find them it has the chrome tags on it to prove it. It would have been real easy to patch up the holes for the tags and slap a Nova Marine sticker on it and have an original but that just would have been wrong in so many ways. Hell I have even found a couple really cool boats in the past that no one knew what or who's it was. Been real easy to copy it and start popping them out by the dozen but again it was not mine to copy. Maybe it's just a morals thing?

[Ghost]

Strictly from a factual perspective (I've taken no position in the Hornet pro/con discussion here), weren't Hornet Marine boats far cheaper than Donzi 16s, at least most recently? (80k for a 16C, maybe less than half that for a Hornet Marine?) And now a Hornet Marine is nearly infinitely cheaper. Before the wacky 80k thing from Donzi, weren't they pretty close in price?

On the flip side, I'd think in general, original builders would prefer any clones that did exist to cost more, preferably LOTS more. If Porsche were trying to sell 550s again, a 30k Beck would undercut them so badly that they'd probably have little chance to move many.

[tmh]

I am amazed at any negativity for David trying to start a new boat company using a 40 year old design that is in essence a tribute to Donzi. Who cares about similarities in names or emblems as I take it as a compliment. Nobody is harmed in this instance. If he produced a poorly designed boat or poor quality I might sing a different tune but the market would take care of that quickly in these economic times. I wish David luck and I would be happy to provide support if I had the opportunity, and I've never met David. I'd do the same for many on this list, even the hot heads out there. Anyone willing to risk money for their passion in these economic times gets my support, unless I realize you don't agree with my political views.
T.M. Hayes

[f_inscreenname]

LAY OFF THIS POOR GUY, HE IS ONLY DOING WHAT HE LOVES. YOU GO TRY IT.

I do everyday bro and yes I love it and have the scars to prove it. Also they came to our house we didn't go to them. If I saw this on OSO, another board or at a show I wouldn't have given it a second thought but they walked into my living room and started talking about their designs. On the street is one thing but in my house is another and I will say something. Sorry.

[roadtrip se]

Bertsboat said ..."If anything, the Donzi clubs around here that are sporting these logo's on everything from hats to topless woman are steeling logo's and riding on the heels of Dona nd the original gang."

Forget about the splash issue for a moment, Bert. This statment is complete BS, at least when it comes to the Midwest Donzi Club and the Awakening of the Horses. During my days of involvement with the MWDC, our goal has been to pay tribute to Don Aronow's legacy by offering a performance run open to all of the Aronow boat brands. We have had Donzis, Magnums, Formulas, and Cigarettes at our runs over the years. This year, we featured the 20 Cigarette, with the permission of current Cigarette ownership by the way, as our theme boat. Our goal is to break even, and that is it, and to perhaps put together a little seed money to go towards next year's run. If we place a logo on anything, it is to serve the purpose of recouping our costs of staging a first class rally. The AOTH is typically one of the largest Aronow tribute runs of it kind in the country, and we are not "riding on the heels" of anybody. Show up and you might change your tune, as it is uninformed, and you certainly are welcome.

Now back to your regular "it's not a copy and it's okay", programming...

[gcarter]

I think Mr. Screen Name's statement about the price of original vs. replica Cobras is rather incorrect. I remember a friend of mine in '67 almost bought a left over 427 Cobra for about $7,000.00.
Now running that figure through an inflation calculator comes to about $46,500.00 in 2010 dollars. I think you could buy a good replica for that amount, including running gear. I also understand Shelby's "Continuation Series" cars aren't doing all that well it auction......maybe $100K or less.
Also, FWIW, many of the replica cars body work is much better than the oricinal AC bodies. It'll cost $100,000.00 or more to restore an original Ace and I'm not even talking about running gear.

Next, I wonder how many here have actually designed a boat???????????? I have, and besides working for Schuller and Allan NA in Houston for a number of years from about '70 on, and correspondance study, I know what it takes. I aluded to this earlier, but all it takes is the original "Table of Offsets" and changing all the dimensions slightly. You could use this to scale a hull, or generate a convincing "Look-A-Like" with absolutely nothing in common w/the original.

In fact, those of you who read "Professional Boatbuilder" can easily find that splashes are rarely, if ever, used today.
It's so much easier to use a service that generates a mold completely from your digitized design. None of that intermediate drudgery is neccessary.
Keeping all this in mind, I believe David when he says it's a new design.

[BUIZILLA]

new design? :embarasse

really? REALLY?

[Ghost]

Again, I've not stated any position about Hornet in this thread: pro, con or otherwise.

That said, I think it's worth noting that there is no libel or slander here. Libel and slander are, respectively, the crimes of writing and saying something that is knowingly false, with the deliberate intent of doing harm. There are two absolute, cast iron defenses for libel and slander:

showing the disputed statement/claim to actually be true
BELIEVING the disputed to be true, regardless of whether it is

The burden of proof lies with the prosecution to prove someone was both wrong about what he wrote, AND that he knew it was wrong and said it anyway, with the intent to do harm. It's virtually impossible.

So, unless one thinks people here are saying other than what they believe when they post on this subject, I think it's safe to drop any concern about libel or slander.

[gcarter]

New, as in not an exact copy (not a splash) of the original, as is being claimed.

[Donziweasel]

George, the hull is a 16 to the millimeter. EXACT copy. They changed the deck and interior.

Bert, I wouldn't get on your high horse considering how you came on these boards. Yes, I remember very clearly the lies and decite about the 14 you "found".

[gcarter]

John, I'll believe you if you (or someone) actually measured them side by side.
Otherwise, I'll take David's word for it.

[Rob M]

[ QUOTE=$originalposter]{$pagetext}[/QUOTE]

Wow. Ez. Lies and deceit?

He lost a hull. He found it again. He brought it back from a turd, neglected condition. He is winning accolades for his work. He saved a rare boat.

[roadtrip se]

I put about 400 hours on a 1996 16 Classic when I was back in Texas. The boat got washed and detailed every time I used it, before we backed it into the garage. That would be the entire boat got washed and detailed, including the bottom, before I put it in storage. It sparkled. We follow the same routine with the 22, now.

No, I did not take a tape to the boat show, but the Hornet I spent quite a bit of time looking over could have been the same boat I had in Texas, just in a different color and a modernized interior. No emotion, no slander, and no libel here. I have had a dozen boats in my boating life, most being performance hulls, and I could not discern any difference between the 16 Classic and the Hornet hulls. If there are differences, they are very minor.

[f_inscreenname]

Alright, I'm out of this. You all know how I feel and why. No reason to start fighting about it.
And I will say, I wish nothing but good luck to you David and your company. I just wish you would present your company little diffrent in the future. :wink:

__________________________________________________ _______________________
Again, I've not stated any position about Hornet in this thread: pro, con or otherwise.

That said, I think it's worth noting that there is no libel or slander here. Libel and slander are, respectively, the crimes of writing and saying something that is knowingly false, with the deliberate intent of doing harm. There are two absolute, cast iron defenses for libel and slander:


showing the disputed statement/claim to actually be true
BELIEVING the disputed to be true, regardless of whether it is


The burden of proof lies with the prosecution to prove someone was both wrong about what he wrote, AND that he knew it was wrong and said it anyway, with the intent to do harm. It's virtually impossible.

So, unless one thinks people here are saying other than what they believe when they post on this subject, I think it's safe to drop any concern about libel or slander.

Ghost
__________________________________________________ _______________

Leave it to Mike to set things right. He's smart. :tooth:

[mattyboy]

tale of the tape from published spec sheets

skisporter 16 one of the original 3 models when donzi launches in 1964 production era 1964 to 1980 dropped from production during the chisholm era. when ownership changes from Chisholm to Staples in 85 no donzi 16 molds are on the premise or in the sale they were either destroyed or sold off.

sweet 16/classic 1990 re introduced by OMC ownership lounge seat on the other side, plugs were taken off a clone splash being made at the time that would explain why the sweet 16 doesn't have a 7 foot beam this was produced on and off after 2000


the 1964 and 1995 specs sheets with a link to the hornet specs

http://www.hornetmarine.com/pages/features_specs.asp

[gcarter]

Thanks Matty, you just proved my point.
Thanks for posting the early lines drawing, and pointing out that the early and later 16 hulls were different.
For some who aren't familiar w/lines, all those curves on Matty's post defines the hull shape. The hull is first defined by stationes (sections at regular intervals between the fwd and aft intersection points at the design waterline, usually 10 of them but can be any number), waterlines (the shape of the hull in plan view at different heights above the base), and buttocks ( the shape of the hull in elevation at different distances from the CL). When you get into more complex shapes, you add diagonals also, usually in sail boats.
Obviously, the combination of all form a three dimensional grid that can be measured with great acccuracy. The measured data is listed on a "Table of Offsets". If you want to make a copy that isn't a copy, start changing some (or all) of the many dimensions, refair the lines, refine the Table of Offstes to reflect the new shape, and you have a completey new boat.
It no longer has anything in common with the old hull except that it's visibly similar, but no two dimensions need be the same. It's a new boat! It'll even have slightly different performance characteristics, maybe better, maybe worse, but not the same.
To me, what's really amazing, is, looking at Matty's lines post and understanding exactly what it is, I see a classic Ray Hunt 24* hull w/a round keel. That basic set of lines could be 12', or 20', 30', or in the case of an article I have somewhere, a Hunt designed 54' motor yacht. The only major difference would be refinements to the beam length ratio.
My point is, hull forms have characteristics that are easily identifiable, like a Frank Lloyd Wright house, you know what it is at first glance. In this case, it's a rip off of a Ray Hunt design.

[olredalert]

----Weasel,,,Is it just in your nature to be a nasty, negative guy all the time? It sure seems like it. Go out and get another Donzi. Maybe you will smile again.......Bill S

[roadtrip se]

And either you like what hornet is doing or you don't. Fairly simple. And it won't be solved here.

As for the specifications, I have had several Fountains. As is common fodder on alot of offshore sites, everybody has given Reggie a hard time for his aggressive LOA measurements due to including the "beak" feauture in the overall length. My last Fountain was a "32 footer" LOA according to Reggie. I knew it wasn't, but that didn't stop me from really enjoying that boat. My point is that measurements are in the eye of the marketer in this business, so the spec sheets really don't prove anything. Touching the boat does. Yes, maybe the hornet does measure slightly different due to slight deck and hardware differences, but to the naked eye, these boats appear identical. No secret there at all, so let's just be honest with ourselves.

And for the record, the Weasel is an absolute riot in person, and has a lot of friends in the community, so save the personal stuff for those who deserve it. We missed him on A-Dock this year in Chattanooga.

[Carl C]

I always thought it was interesting that Donzi actually understates the length of it's boat. For example the 22C is 22'6" so most would call it a 23. Put on a swim platform and it's a 24!

This could definitely go on forever and I'm done with it. I just hope that Donzi emerges from bankruptcy and that they keep building the Classics. And keep the prices real. They have everything in place already so should be able to build a 16 Classic as cheap as anyone.

[Donziweasel]

----Weasel,,,Is it just in your nature to be a nasty, negative guy all the time? It sure seems like it. Go out and get another Donzi. Maybe you will smile again.......Bill S

Actually Bill, if you speak to many of my Donzi freinds that I have met and hung out with, I think you would find they would say I am a very happy guy. You do seem to enjoy following me around whether it be here, OSO, or .org with your opinion of my posts. While it was humorous at first, but please stop, having my own stalker is beginning to freak me out a little.

I will admit I am not in the best of moods lately, with some small things like my mom dying (some members came to the funeral which meant alot to me), my aunt dying, my dog dying, my uncle having a stroke, my brother having a down syndrome son after having a one armed daughter and my father expected to live 3 more months due to esophageal cancer tearing him to peices, which is why I have been flying back and forth to Atlanta weekly. Oh yeah, this is all in the last 4 months. So Bill, thanks for the beat down, you are a real stand up guy! Appreciate it.

The Donzi will have to wait, I purchased a Formula 28 SS this spring for the family. Nice boat and stayed in the Don family.

As for Bert, yes he did do a great restoration, but when he showed up, he was, shall we say, less than honest about things. Perhaps I should have used a little more tact when mentioning this.

I am with f#ckingscreen name. I don't care. Good luck David, do what you want. I hope your company does well. (Happy Bill?)

[silverghost]

This is also my last post on this Hornet Marine thread here~~~

To the BIG ISSUE to me has all been about David's, & Hornet Marine's blatent mis-representations about this old design.

You might all remember thet he David first came on this forum with his Hornet Marine originally looking to borrow a REAL authentic Donzi 16 to use as a boat show display boat in his Hornet Marine booth.
Trying to pass-of the REAL DONZI hull as HORNET MARINE'S own boat build at this very large boatshow.
Does anyone remember that ???
He was going to cover the deck & interior to just display the REAL DONZI's hull & bottom trying to pass it off as a HORNET MARINE boat hull build to get customers to actually buy HIS Hornet Marine boats when he had yet to finish their first boat.
I believe Hornet marine had yet to build, or at the very least, finish their very first prototype boat build ?
Now~~~
What was that all about ???
Other than a gross consumer deception.
Passing-off a REAL DONZI HULL as your own Hornet Marine build !
I have a REAL problem with all David's, & Hornet Marine's, deceptions & blatent mis-representations !

I do however give David, & his Hornet Marine, my applause for starting a boat company in this very poor boat sales economy, to continue building this great old "Classic" Donzi design.
Now that Donzi is in such a financial mess and may not ever build another "Classic" style 16, 18, 22, or Hornet for that matter, It might be a great idea to keep the retro-pocket speedboat design & fun alive.

I just wish that he would not try to continue to mis-represent what he is really trying to do.
And that is build a high quality retro-style reproduction Donzi style tribute replica speedboat based on the actual original Donzi 16 design of Walt & Don .

This is the very last I will comment here on this thread about this stickey issue.

GOOD LUCK DAVID, & HORNET MARINE !
Get REAL, & Truthfull,
in you advertising & promotions and I will finally be on board as a new HORNET MARINE supporter !

[seabuddy]

I have visited a fair amount of boat building plants over the years and these builders would often have a photo on the wall of their plug, as it proven how the boat hull came into being. Many boat builders did not have such a photo. I always take that for what that means IMO.

I and others have seen photos of the original plug for the Donzi 16. It was an original boat. Not a copy (splash) of something at Formula, Bertram, or another boat.

The hull, - not the deck - nor the cockpit - nor the name (unless it is used within the same industry).

Within the trade, there are some that worry over deck designs, so perhaps each has their own thoughts about decks.

I know guy that splashed the most sucessful boat ever, the basic Bayliner. He built some with 4 cyl and they ran fine. Built some with V-6 engines and found them to be squirrely. He then found out that Bayliner had a separate hull design for their V-8 powered boats of the same model. He had splashed a 4 cyl boat.

Knew another boat builder that got press by making a triple I/O design. He never wanted to sell those, after the magazine press gave his boat coverage as it was a triple. It seems his twin engined boat was as fast as the triple. The triple was only intended to get press.