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hard labor
03-27-2012, 07:35 PM
Im wanting to get thru hull transducer in my year 2000 35zf. Ive heard it has to be in front of steps does anybody have any experience with installion and how it reads at cruising speeds. Had one quote of $2800.00 just labor to install it. Seems abit high to me thanks in advance

zelatore
03-27-2012, 08:30 PM
$2800 for just labor is VERY high. I'd be asking for a break-out of how they came to that number, or just plain walking away!

I don't know that particular boat, but in general yes you would need the 'ducer to run in clean water with no air, so in front of the step makes sense. You'd still want it as far back as possible to make sure it stays in the water with bow-rise upon accel/cruise.

I'll assume the boat has to be hauled out; that it's either not on a trailer or the trailer is in the way of accessing the 'ducer location. In my area (NorCal) that runs about $10/ft. So that's $350

Let's say the guy doing the instal isn't the yard, so he needs to pay them a lay-day for the boat to sit (it will need to be out over night to let everything cure before lauch) so maybe an extra $35...that brings us to $385. Let's round that up and call it $400

He'll have to cut your fairing block to match the deadrise of the hull (assuming you're using a bigger/hi-po 'ducer that has a fairing block and not some simple little thing) so that will be an hour labor. Call it $100 for a total of $500

Cut a hole in the boat....give him an hour- $100; bringing us to $600

The wire pull for the cable on that boat can't be difficult - it's a small center console for gawd's sake! It's not like he's got to snake the cables to the flybridge on a 60 footer or anything. Let's say it takes him 2-3 hours tops. Call that another $300 for a total of $900

Throw in $50 for materials (3M5200 for mounting the 'ducer/fairing block, some s/s hardware, a few zip ties, etc) and I'm still well under $1000

What did I miss?

Seriously, I'd love to see a break-down of how they arrived at that number. Either I'm waaaay off on what it takes to put a 'ducer in a 35 ZF, or this guy is smoking some good stuff.

BTW, I'm assuming you're using a large thru-hull transducer like the Airmar B744V or similar. If you're using a smaller 'ducer that sits flush with the hull the installation is even simpler. And if you're using an shoot-through style, it's MUCH simpler since you don't have the haul/lay-day/hole in the boat/etc. But being a fish boat, I'm guessing you'd want something a little better than the average in-hull 'ducer.

hard labor
03-27-2012, 09:35 PM
[ QUOTE=$originalposter]{$pagetext}[/QUOTE]

Thanks for imput on crazy labor costs. My boat is on trailor so that saves some of the costs, Im putting 1k watt airmar 260 tilted element thru hull ducer. They told me that they had to create a pocket for it in inside of hull for it to fit then reinforce it and glass it in dont much about it but going to get another estimate for sure

silverghost
03-27-2012, 11:11 PM
The price does seem insanely high.

However is this just for the yard's labor ?

OR Transducer, fairing block & Labor ?

A bronze thru-hull mounted multi finction, depth, speed, temp. & dual frequency sounder transducer element ,with a custom fairing block is pretty pricy just for the transducer itself. $500-$800 just for the transducer before labor.

A shoot- though the hull angled epoxy glued-inside "Puck" style transducer installation is quite cheap however.
This style transducer is the cheapest around.
typically $100-$200 for the transducer.

I'm not sure of your hull's construction ; nor IF your hull bottom has any internal core.
BUT~~~
If actually shooting through the hull an inside hull mounting spot must be found, or created where there is no foam, balsa, or composite hull bottom core.
A transducer cannot shoot sound through a cored hull bottom without removing part of that hull core in the transducer's selected mounting spot..
Most newer boats have such a pre-selected transducer inside hull mounting spot already pre-molded into the hull at the factory/boatbuilder where there s clean water contact with NO hull core..
Check for this factory spot on your hull~~~

Glued-in angled"Puck" style transducer installation is very easy in most cases and should be done for a very cheap labor cost.

zelatore
03-28-2012, 12:56 AM
If they are creating a pocket in the hull, I'm going to assume your ZF has a cored hull? If so, then that would indeed ad to the.complexity of the install. The price still sounds high, but not as bad as I had first thought.

MOP
03-28-2012, 09:35 AM
According to the manufacturers site you do not need fairing or a pocket, Have them look at the link below. In the right pane they say 16 to 24 degree, that has you covered.

http://www.airmartechnology.com/uploads/brochures/ss264n.pdf

Pismo
03-28-2012, 09:58 AM
So ridiculous. I did mine myself in about 1 hour, including everything, mounting the transducer, dash work, wiring. $2800 an hour salary..nice...Such BS. Find another marina.

zelatore
03-28-2012, 11:15 AM
I've only done the tilted element 'ducers once or twice, but they are nice pieces. A better choice for a fast boat than a traditional fairing block style unit like the old 744 and easier to install. Are you going with the 264 pair MOP linked to? If so, there's some extra time for installing the two ducers, but that's offset by not having to deal with the fairing block installation.

I won't go so far as to say you can do it in an hour like Pismo suggested, but I'd be closer to that than I would your original quote.

The key question is if you have a cored hull. If so, then there is some rational for building a pocket. I will guess what they mean by that (and again, this only applies for a cored hull) is they will cut the 'ducer hole, then reef out the coring about 4" back leaving a 'pocket' between the inner and outer laminates that they will then fill with epoxy. This would be the technically correct way to install any thru-hull fitting on a cored hull since it provides additional strength and protection from potential core saturation in the event of water penetration. But few yards actually do that - most simply cut a hole, paint the core with some wicking epoxy for protection/strength, then stick in the 'ducer. And honestly, that works 90% of the time and involves considerably less work/cost.

So, first question: cored or not cored hull?

Regardless of the answer, I still say they are way off base. So much, that I think they must simply have made some sort of mistake. Are you sure that's just labor? They didn't accidentally include parts as well? If so, that would put their quote a little closer to reality as that's around a grand's worth of transducer there.

Get the quote in writing and post the details - I'm sure we'd all love to see how they arrived at that number. Maybe it's an honest mistake. Or maybe they think you ride on turnip trucks.

ROADTOYS
03-28-2012, 11:19 AM
I just had one installed in my ZX28, 1 hour labor at $110.00 Naples Boat Mart

Pismo
03-28-2012, 11:42 AM
"I just had one installed in my ZX28, 1 hour labor at $110.00 Naples Boat Mart "

Much more like it. My depth kit cost $60.

zelatore
03-28-2012, 01:29 PM
Pismo, although I agree that the original number quoted was extremely off-base, it's pretty much apples and oranges with what you're running. If you're 'depth kit' cost $60, I'm guessing it's the most basic thing available. Likely a simple in-the-hull puck. Even those typically run over $100 these days and they are the cheapest thing you can buy.

This is a much higher end transducer; look it up or look at the link MOP posted. You're looking at more like $800-$1000 for just the 'ducer itself depending on exact model.

Frankly, I wouldn't trust a yard that quoted me a 1-hour installation of a thru-hull transducer, including pulling the cables, much more than I would trust the guys who made the original quote. One clearly doesn't know what it takes to do the job right and is underbidding (what corners are they cutting? will they jack up the price when they get into the job?) while the other is massively over-bidding (how do they justify this price?)

In my original post I'm trying to go for a worst-case situation to see if I can come up with how on earth the yard got to $2800. Even then, I can't get anywhere near that number. Realistically, I'd expect a few hundred bucks to be in the ballpark but acknowledge there could be some things I don't know that complicate the installation (like a cored hull).

Pismo
03-28-2012, 02:08 PM
"Pismo, although I agree that the original number quoted was extremely off-base, it's pretty much apples and oranges with what you're running. If you're 'depth kit' cost $60, I'm guessing it's the most basic thing available. Likely a simple in-the-hull puck. Even those typically run over $100 these days and they are the cheapest thing you can buy.

This is a much higher end transducer; look it up or look at the link MOP posted. You're looking at more like $800-$1000 for just the 'ducer itself depending on exact model.

Frankly, I wouldn't trust a yard that quoted me a 1-hour installation of a thru-hull transducer, including pulling the cables, much more than I would trust the guys who made the original quote. One clearly doesn't know what it takes to do the job right and is underbidding (what corners are they cutting? will they jack up the price when they get into the job?) while the other is massively over-bidding (how do they justify this price?)

In my original post I'm trying to go for a worst-case situation to see if I can come up with how on earth the yard got to $2800. Even then, I can't get anywhere near that number. Realistically, I'd expect a few hundred bucks to be in the ballpark but acknowledge there could be some things I don't know that complicate the installation (like a cored hull)."




$2800 (just for labor don't forget) is ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS no matter how you try to justify it.

Take off a zero and it might be worth it...Any more and you are wasting your money.

zelatore
03-28-2012, 03:33 PM
$2800 (just for labor don't forget) is ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS no matter how you try to justify it.


I agree 100%

joseph m. hahnl
03-28-2012, 06:10 PM
It must be one of those cloking transducers that makes your boat invisable to the fishes eyes. Those are really expensive to install as the technology used is from Klingon or Romulas. Your boat will need to be teleported through a stargate to even get there. Your in Luck though there's a Star Trek convention at the end of the week.
I'm sure if you buy a Romulan some Ale he would help you out with it:kingme:


on a personal note my $100 shoot through works at full board 60mph. I'm not sure how that Dilithium Crystal Chamber Transducer is going to work but for $2800 plus $800 to $1000 for a Transducer. It had better make the fish jump in the boat .

This guy has one, it works amazingly good

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iK836PUx1-0

RickyR
03-28-2012, 07:00 PM
[ QUOTE=$originalposter]{$pagetext}[/QUOTE]

I did mine myself on my ZFC. It was tight, but very do-able. No coring in the hull, so drill the hole and mount the sender.
I drilled my hole from the inside down first using a 3/8 bit then drilled back from the bottom.
The place you want to mount this is in the center console bilge area.
Take the rear piece of starboard out (inside the center console), then there is a small bilge area that the sump for the shower is sitting. Across from that pump on the stbd side, drill your hole. That area is in front of the steps and works well up to about 50 mph. There is an arrow for the clocking of the transducer, and make sure you get the correct degree one and mount in the correct direction. Some say a backing plate made of treated/painted is needed, so do what makes you happy.
I have access to getting the wrench that tightens the nut.

If you aren't nimble or are fat :cool:, let someone else do it...

Ricky

DonziJosh
03-28-2012, 07:08 PM
^^ Just like Ricky said. As long as your boat doesn't have the extra fuel option (you won't have a stand-up head inside the console if you do) then it shouldn't be a problem. All those poly closeouts inside the console give you pretty decent access. The Airmar 260 works really well when properly mounted in front of the forward step. We've fished them in offshore tournaments for years with really good results.



Josh


www.DonziDirect.Com
Donzi.Net Site Sponsor
888.441.1614

hard labor
03-29-2012, 05:37 PM
Thanks for all the help me being new to the site i appreciate all the responses. The quote i got i found out included fiberglassing in the football shaped ducer flush mounted the airmar b260 but that was labor only they are telling me because it being a Donzi step hull is why its expensive. I got another quote for inhull airmar m260 labor and ducer for $1450.00 ( $850.00 for ducer $600.00 labor. My problem is i dont know which would be better anybody got the same 35 zf that could give me some insight on performance at speeds would be great. I see Rick has the cuddy version with good luck at higher speeds. I just dont want get the wrong ducer placement . I have transom mount now that dont read at all on plane. Does anybody know if the hull is core foam where it wouldnt read properly with in hull ducer?




Thanks Scott 727- 647- 0528

joseph m. hahnl
03-29-2012, 08:40 PM
You can test the transducer placement by putting it in a bag of water:wink:

zelatore
03-29-2012, 09:43 PM
Placement with either transducer is still critical, but as mentioned above, you can test run an in-hull by putting it in a bag of water and moving it around to different spots. I've never tried it with a big guy like you're looking at, but have done it with lower power in-hull 'ducers to find a good spot. It's a bit of a PITA since it's hard to keep the thing in place while moving, but if you've got a helper to hold it while you drive and watch the display it's doable. That M260 is a big boy, so it may be difficult to find a spot for it.

I'd take DonziJosh's comments about location to heart - he's a factory man after all and should know better than anyone.

As for the $600 to install an in-hull M260, that still sounds a little high but not as far off-base as the original numbers. I'm not sure where you're located, but in my area (norcal) most techs get around $100/hr. 6 hours for that installation sounds high. Without seeing the boat I'd have expected half that to be closer. But again, keep in mind that although I've installed lots of transducers on lots of boats, I've never set foot on a ZF. The basic installation would be to find a location, check the angle of the hull and cut the mounting tub to match, seal the tub to the hull and fill with antifreeze, then pull the cable. Six hours for that?

Normally for fishing I don't recommend in-hull transducers though I do for cost-conscious cruisers. Fishermen are usually looking for all-out performance and things like water temp and speed through the water for trolling (as opposed to speed over ground you get from a GPS). For those reasons, I'd normally steer you toward a thru-hull ducer like you first spoke about. That said, the guys over at TheHullTruth seem to like the M260 pretty well...
http://www.thehulltruth.com/marine-electronics-forum/103917-airmar-m260-hull-transducer.html


You haven't mentioned what sounder you're hooking to, but if it will support it (and you've got the coin) I'd consider looking at the new CHIRP transducers. I haven't played with one yet, but everything I've read says they're a game changer.

http://airmartechnology.com/uploads/Brochures/BB_Transducers_BR_rC_lr.pdf

RickyR
03-31-2012, 11:36 AM
You are getting conflicting info.
I mounted an Airmar B60 dual frequency with the 20* tilt that was wired to a Garmin 5212.

My 2002 ZFC was not a cored hull (at least in front of the steps), and I personally drilled a hole in my hull with excellent results. It was solid glass and nothing else. I saved the puck, but now I can't find it. There is absolutely no other place to mount a thru hull transducer on that boat and get the best results PERIOD

If you have any doubts as to what info you are receiving, let a professional do the job. You will pay for their expertise and ultimately they will/should be responsible for their work.

Ricky